Ibn Rushd vs Ghazali: Did the Muslim world take a wrong turn?

[hammy_lucky]

It was never my argument. You brought up 17th century scientist as a fallacious argument from authority to support your irrational claims. I just pointed out that not only is your argument is factually incorrect, it’s also fallacious.

You began the argument with the notion that Atheists are more clever than Theists. I tried disputing your claim. You can call any argument fallacious so it doesn't matter.

 

[hammy_lucky]

So just because a book says something, we should believe it as a fact without question?

This book’s challenge to humanity remains.

And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah, if you are truthful. (Quran 2:23)

You still haven't cleared your position on the Creator. Please specify if you have the same belief as Spinoza’s or not?

Question.
Why the laws of nature the same everywhere in the Universe? Why in it, the values are the way they are? Why specifically these mathematical values?
If no one assigned those, why behaving in the same way? Why not chaos but order? What is the very reality/nature of matter/energy?
If you are still looking for these explanations then I am afraid you can't even comprehend the creation yet.

To belief in God you don't need a degree in philosophy or a super IQ. You are barking up the wrong tree.

 

[Vitamin_C]

And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah, if you are truthful. (Quran 2:23)

That’s not a challenge that’s a bongi.

Challenges have an objective criteria that can be measured and set a level requirement at which the challenge can be completed.

Producing a Surah like Quran is a subjective claim and does not qualify as a challenge.

It’s the same thing as saying is there a daughter as good as mine? Everyone loves their own writing and their own things.

What kind of stupid god is this who is doing his own tareef of his own writing ?

Seems to me it was written by a person with a big ego

 

[Vitamin_C]

You still haven't cleared your position on the Creator. Please specify if you have the same belief as Spinoza’s or not?

My belief doesn’t contradict Spinoza, I consider nature as God in a metaphorical way as everything that we have studied and understood comes from nature.

But I don’t believe a God like a personal God who cares about which hole you are fucking someone in or a god who writes books and bad poetry. These are things that humans care about and they made up Gods in their own image.

 

[Vitamin_C]

You began the argument with the notion that Atheists are more clever than Theists. I tried disputing your claim. You can call any argument fallacious so it doesn't matter.

Well there are many clever theists but in general societies with higher atheism have higher IQ. I don’t know if the two are related but that’s the observation. Also the more educated a person, the less likely it is that he/she is religious.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Why the laws of nature the same everywhere in the Universe? Why in it, the values are the way they are? Why specifically these mathematical values?

The laws of nature are not laws in the sense that its a rule that someone made. In English same word is used to mean many different things. Here law means observation. Its an observation we have made that these things hold true. For mathematical observations that are quantifiable we call them laws.

Theory is something that explains a law or a fact. To explain these laws we have to into the quantum realm.

Human brains are not evolved for the quantom world or mega world like thinking about universes etc. Our brains evolved to live in a 3 dimensional world, so we might need help of super computers and AI to solve some of these questions in the future.

If no one assigned those, why behaving in the same way? Why not chaos but order? What is the very reality/nature of matter/energy?

Its chaos with order behind them. Thats what makes mathematics so beautiful. Sometimes mathematicians describe their work in a romantic and metaphorical way as deciphering the language of god. Ofcourse everything that we uncover, always has a natural explanation.

I agree with you that the universe is mysterious, but its not mysterius in a magical or supernatural way. Its mysterious that many things we have uncovered have simple and interesting explanation but there are still many things we have not understood yet.

To belief in God you don't need a degree in philosophy or a super IQ. You are barking up the wrong tree.

People can believe in whatever they want, but to believe in something without evidence is generally corellated with lower IQ. Religious countries IQ are significantly lower than more secular countries, Pakistan's IQ for example is 84 meaning half of the population has an IQ below 84.

Believing things without evidence is a dangerous precidents, when someone can believe in one thing without reason or logic they can believe in other irrational things too such as suicide bombings, nazism, communism and all the other frauds that humans have come up wit that they can never justify without fallacious arguments. This is why Philosophy is so important, it helps us seperate the bullshit from the facts.

Any idea that says to you, we are special so do not judge us by same logic and reason and evidence, run as far away from that idea as you can or you will waste your entire life in a lie.

 

[hammy_lucky]

That’s not a challenge that’s a bongi.

Challenges have an objective criteria that can be measured and set a level requirement at which the challenge can be completed.

Producing a Surah like Quran is a subjective claim and does not qualify as a challenge.

It’s the same thing as saying is there a daughter as good as mine? Everyone loves their own writing and their own things.

What kind of stupid god is this who is doing his own tareef of his own writing ?

Seems to me it was written by a person with a big ego

And how can you measure a Bongi?
I said it earlier ‘a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.’

Quran is a book which demands skills. Your analogy with a daughter is seriously absurd.
You seems to have no knowledge of Arabs & their history.

It's the book from a deity who is the only one deserving of an ego.

 

[hammy_lucky]

The laws of nature are not laws in the sense that its a rule that someone made. In English same word is used to mean many different things. Here law means observation. Its an observation we have made that these things hold true. For mathematical observations that are quantifiable we call them laws.

Theory is something that explains a law or a fact. To explain these laws we have to into the quantum realm.

Human brains are not evolved for the quantom world or mega world like thinking about universes etc. Our brains evolved to live in a 3 dimensional world, so we might need help of super computers and AI to solve some of these questions in the future.




Its chaos with order behind them. Thats what makes mathematics so beautiful. Sometimes mathematicians describe their work in a romantic and metaphorical way as deciphering the language of god. Ofcourse everything that we uncover, always has a natural explanation.

I agree with you that the universe is mysterious, but its not mysterius in a magical or supernatural way. Its mysterious that many things we have uncovered have simple and interesting explanation but there are still many things we have not understood yet.



People can believe in whatever they want, but to believe in something without evidence is generally corellated with lower IQ. Religious countries IQ are significantly lower than more secular countries, Pakistan's IQ for example is 84 meaning half of the population has an IQ below 84.

Believing things without evidence is a dangerous precidents, when someone can believe in one thing without reason or logic they can believe in other irrational things too such as suicide bombings, nazism, communism and all the other frauds that humans have come up wit that they can never justify without fallacious arguments. This is why Philosophy is so important, it helps us seperate the bullshit from the facts.

Any idea that says to you, we are special so do not judge us by same logic and reason and evidence, run as far away from that idea as you can or you will waste your entire life in a

Pardon me for asking this question but it's important to know the answer for further discussion.

Can An Atheist Son and Mom have sex with consent? Is it morally fine if they find it okay?

 

[Vitamin_C]

And how can you measure a Bongi?

Quran is a book which demands skills. Your analogy with a daughter is seriously absurd.
You seems to have no knowledge of Arabs & their history.

It's the book from a deity who is the only one deserving of ego.

It’s a bongi because he is making a subjective claim and calling it a challenge.

Challenge is something that is measurable and you can set a clear criteria which when satisfied completes the challenge.

Ego is a human emotion, the book is clearly written by a human who doesn’t understand what a challenge means.

In time of Muhammad people used to hand their poetry at gates of Kaaba and challenge each other whose poetry is better. Muhammad is using the same logic here. It’s not an actual challenge but taunting other poets of his time.

 

[hammy_lucky]

It’s a bongi because he is making a subjective claim and calling it a challenge.

Challenge is something that is measurable and you can set a clear criteria which when satisfied completes the challenge.

Ego is a human emotion, the book is clearly written by a human who doesn’t understand what a challenge means.

In time of Muhammad people used to hand their poetry at gates of Kaaba and challenge each other whose poetry is better. Muhammad is using the same logic here. It’s not an actual challenge but taunting other poets of his time.

Then what happened with the challenge?

 

[Vitamin_C]

Can An Atheist Son and Mom have sex with consent? Is it morally fine if they find it okay?

Morality is a separate topic from Atheism.

Atheism just deals with theism.

Morality is not related to atheism.

In my eyes it is wrong because it violates power dynamics in the family and could cause harm to other humans if they have offsprings which will most likely have genetic disorders.

But if you refer to Islam. Muhammad married his own daughter in law. Adam’s offsprings thoroughly engaged in incest and cousin marriages which is also incest is allowed in Islam. I consider all those things morally wrong that’s why I consider Islam is one of the most immoral religions.

Your prophet never did the job he was supposed to. He never compiled the Quran during his lifetime which is the only job God sent him to do. Quran wasn’t even Canonized until hundreds of years later.

Just like when Nawaz came to power his bank account started growing. When Muhammad came into power his main mission was to bone as many women as possible, as his power grew so did his harem. Until the Arabs were finally rid of this plague when a Jewish woman poisoned him at khayber.

Fortunately his reign of terror was short lived. When he came to power he was marrying on average 2.5 women every year until he was poisoned in 630 and died in 632.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Then what happened with the challenge?

It was completed during the lifetime of Muhammad. Muhammad’s main scribe, can’t remember his name now but you can search it he was the main guy writing down the Quran.

He improved the verses in Quran by changing them and when he told this to Muhammad, Muhammad asked him to discard the original and keep the version with his edits.

This made the scribe think he can write verses better than God so he left Islam. Muhammad could have had him executed but because he was related to powerful family of Hazrat Umar, he was spared if he returns to Islam.

 

[hammy_lucky]

The laws of nature are not laws in the sense that its a rule that someone made. In English same word is used to mean many different things. Here law means observation. Its an observation we have made that these things hold true. For mathematical observations that are quantifiable we call them laws.

Theory is something that explains a law or a fact. To explain these laws we have to into the quantum realm.

Human brains are not evolved for the quantom world or mega world like thinking about universes etc. Our brains evolved to live in a 3 dimensional world, so we might need help of super computers and AI to solve some of these questions in the future.




Its chaos with order behind them. Thats what makes mathematics so beautiful. Sometimes mathematicians describe their work in a romantic and metaphorical way as deciphering the language of god. Ofcourse everything that we uncover, always has a natural explanation.

I agree with you that the universe is mysterious, but its not mysterius in a magical or supernatural way. Its mysterious that many things we have uncovered have simple and interesting explanation but there are still many things we have not understood yet.



People can believe in whatever they want, but to believe in something without evidence is generally corellated with lower IQ. Religious countries IQ are significantly lower than more secular countries, Pakistan's IQ for example is 84 meaning half of the population has an IQ below 84.

Believing things without evidence is a dangerous precidents, when someone can believe in one thing without reason or logic they can believe in other irrational things too such as suicide bombings, nazism, communism and all the other frauds that humans have come up wit that they can never justify without fallacious arguments. This is why Philosophy is so important, it helps us seperate the bullshit from the facts.

Secularism and atheism are two different notions. I agree problems with major religions.

 

[hammy_lucky]

It was completed during the lifetime of Muhammad. Muhammad’s main scribe, can’t remember his name now but you can search it he was the main guy writing down the Quran.

He improved the verses in Quran by changing them and when he told this to Muhammad, Muhammad asked him to discard the original and keep the version with his edits.

This made the scribe think he can write verses better than God so he left Islam. Muhammad could have had him executed but because he was related to powerful family of Hazrat Umar, he was spared if he returns to Islam.

You seem to have a very unique opinion and knowledge of history. I can't even think of arguing with these stupid versions. I am speechless.

 

[hammy_lucky]

Morality is a separate topic from Atheism.

Atheism just deals with theism.

Morality is not related to atheism.

In my eyes it is wrong because it violates power dynamics in the family and could cause harm to other humans if they have offsprings which will most likely have genetic disorders.

But if you refer to Islam. Muhammad married his own daughter in law. Adam’s offsprings thoroughly engaged in incest and cousin marriages which is also incest is allowed in Islam. I consider all those things morally wrong that’s why I consider Islam is one of the most immoral religions.

Your prophet never did the job he was supposed to. He never compiled the Quran during his lifetime which is the only job God sent him to do. Quran wasn’t even Canonized until hundreds of years later.

Just like when Nawaz came to power his bank account started growing. When Muhammad came into power his main mission was to bone as many women as possible, as his power grew so did his harem. Until the Arabs were finally rid of this plague when a Jewish woman poisoned him at khayber.

Fortunately his reign of terror was short lived. When he came to power he was marrying on average 2.5 women every year until he was poisoned in 630 and died in 632.

All religions are based on Moral codes & you think Morality and the discussion on good & evil are not topics related to the belief in God??
?‍ I cant believe I came this far to discuss the topic of God with you.
Seriously man!

 

[Vitamin_C]

You seem to have a very unique opinion and knowledge of history. I can't even think of arguing with these stupid versions. I am speechless.

It’s not my opinion. It’s in your own books.

 

[hammy_lucky]

It’s not my opinion. It’s in your own books.

So do you believe in other contents of all the books too?
You are happy to believe in the false stories which not even 1% of the people subscribe to, but reject others which 99% believes in.
Do you even understand how stupid your claim is?
You just proved yourself prejudiced.

Muhammad PBUH fought wars against more powerful and resourceful enemies. His opponents to this day think that he would not have achieved what he did, if he had himself not believed in.

Also here is another proof of the oldest quranic manuscript.

'Oldest' Koran fragments found in Birmingham University http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33436021

I am sorry, you need to get rid of your biases to have some constructive debate.

 

[Vitamin_C]

All religions are based on Moral codes & you think Morality and the discussion on good & evil are not topics related to the belief in God??
?‍ I cant believe I came this far to discuss the topic of God with you.
Seriously man!

Good and evil have nothing to do with morality. Many immoral things are permitted in Islam such as rape and torture of civilian prisoners of war, buying and selling of slaves.

Morality is a completely different topic and we can do it another day but religions are not concerned with morality.

Religions only concerned with whether you believe or not. This is why In Islam disbelievers go to hell even if they are the most moral human on planet and serial killers go to heaven if they are just believers.

 

[Vitamin_C]

So do you believe in other contents of all the books too?
You are happy to believe in the false stories which not even 1% of the people subscribe to, but reject others which 99% believes in.

I’m not talking about myself, I am talking about you, so It doesn’t matter if I believe in it or not, I am mentioning it to you because you believe in it. Do you not? Or do you want me to convince you using arguments about Islam from secular and atheists books which one do you prefer, I am fine with both.

According to hadiths and prophets biography, the challenge was completed during Muhammad’s lifetime by the original Qari of Quran who then left Islam. Research it.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Also here is another proof of the oldest quranic manuscript.

'Oldest' Koran fragments found in Birmingham University http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33436021

They don’t match with the modern versions. According to your own standard narrative, Quran was complied after death of Muhammad. Later Hajjaj Bin Yousaf made changes to Quran and Abbasids added Zair zabbar to it many decades later. Masjid Aqsa built around 694 added has a verse on its walls that was completely missing from modern Quran. The version you read now is the 1924 Cairo version but there are at-least 6 other versions of Quran.
It’s not my fault that you haven’t studied your own religion.