Ibn Rushd vs Ghazali: Did the Muslim world take a wrong turn?

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I have major issues with the understandings of religions by people including Muslims. God is an abstract idea and many abstract ideas are very important to humans. It provides them with something to hang on to. It provides them with the advantages of collectivism.

I don’t have a problem with that. People can believe in a God if it helps them. Most Christians I have come across understand that faith is just made up and it’s not actually true but they chose to believe in God just like they do in Santa. They know it’s not real but it helps them in their life.

But when you come to the Muslim world that’s where you bear the full brunt of the lower end of our planet’s IQ scale. People believe Imaan or Faith is a glorious thing and have pride in believing things to be literally true even in total absence of evidence.

Stupidity irritates me especially in their most vicious forms of racism and religious superstitious that is plaguing the Muslim world right now.

As I said believing things in absence of evidence is dangerous. This is where we get anti-vaxxers, flat earthers, nazis/communists and religious nuts. World will be a far better place without people who throw logic and reason out of the window to believe in their superstitions.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
? Last question.
Define LOVE.
After that, I will give you my conclusion on our discussion.

To be completely honest with you. My brain is 95% logic and 5% emotion.

I can sound like an asshole most of the time and hurt peoples feelings and not even notice that I did something wrong and if I did that with you then my apologies, I was just presenting my arguments as honestly as I can and not trying to hurt anyone.

I know the dictionary definition but I dont know how to define it myself. I struggle to feel things like most people do because I had a rough childhood as I explained before.

But I can explain what I may feel maybe related to what people feel and think of as love.

As a male I have strong feelings of affection and tenderness towards the Weak, Elderly, Children and Women. And I have an intinct to protect them even if they are not related to me. I have an intinct to look after people who are sick, weak or old. An instinct to comfort children when they are hurt. I also noticed that my heart beats faster and my chest swells up and my cortisol goes up when I hear a woman scream/weep/cry, maybe my body instinctively gears up for a fight to protect. It happened a few times when a girl in upstairs apartment was going through a break up and start crying at night. I had to call my mother to keep me calm or listen to music so I that I cant hear her cry. I didn't even know who she is but the response of my body was very irrational and real.

People romanticize alot about love but to my logical brain, its a physiological resposne in our bodies to ensure the survival of our species. Its brings humans together to procreate, to protect each other and take care of each other.

But once that purpose is served, the feeling also goes away, which makes me feel that love is just an illusion and it isn't real like Nazareth wrote in his song.


 

hammy_lucky

MPA (400+ posts)
My friend, I will try to conclude my discussion and also add my response to your earlier arguments.

1) First of all the Quran was given to Muhammad in a spiritual form and not in writing. Since neither you nor those YouTubers have any idea of the language and especially the language of the Quran which is classical Arabic it's not going to be a fruitful discussion anymore. My position here is that the message of the Quran remains 100% the same. All the minor differences are in writings and dialects. These different versions are not God-sent but approved later (mostly by Muhammad himself). The miracle of the Quran was its language. Even Arabs of those times who were proud of their language were awed by it's used of words. It was Arabic but not an everyday used Arabic. They could understand Quran but could not produce any thing of the same kind. So the language of the Quran itself is miraculous and particular in this sense. People all over the world still memorise Quran so easily without even understanding the language.
I challenge you to show me any other book which has these qualities.

2) Ibn Ishaq-
My friend, you mentioned there wouldn't be any hadiths if it wasn't for Ibn Ishaq’s to have written history and Sirah. I don't know where did you get this FALSE understanding.
Many scholars including Imam Bukhari ( writer of the most authentic Sunni hadith book ie Sahih Bukhari) hardly ever used his narrations in their sahih books. All the scholars of ahadith except one no longer rely on any of his narrations. Others, like Imam Hanbal rejected his narrations on all matters related to fiqh.
It will also take me very long to explain to you the differences between Hadith and Sunnah.
Rest assured I know my religion more than many Muslims.
It's better for you to rather not accept any of the books than to cherry-pick because I can assure you that scholars have their criteria for the scrutiny of these historical writings. It's not as simple as it seems.

3) In Muhammad PBUH times almost everyone believed in some form of God. Atheism was not much of a belief in those times. So, shirk was addressed and considered to be the greatest sin. I give you two examples of Arrogance and I will leave it to you to decide which is bigger of the two sins according to God. First is ‘Satan’ who was also one of the biggest believers in the oneness of God. The second is ‘Pharaoh’. Both are considered to be the greatest sinners because of their Arrogance. A new form of Arrogance nowadays is denying God’s existence by believing in the ultimacy of the human mind and scientific knowledge despite its fallibility and limitations.

4) Special pleading fallacy.
Your major standing point of the discussion is declaring my argument as a special pleading fallacy. So, first of all, I want to remind you again that I gave you an explanation for the special exception in this case. You do not have pre-big bang knowledge, my friend. So you cannot assume things. You can assert that I brought my argument which you don't agree with but don't assume that if there is a Creator you can apply the same philosophy as you do to creations.

5) You still don't know about related topics such as intuition, consciousness, spiritual experiences, metaphysics. Your mind training is based on western philosophy and science only.
You are trying to see everything through this lens of yours. Attempting to understand everything through this way may not be the most adequate way. The whole of the modern western education system cultivates you to think this way. It trains and forces you to rationalise everything. There are advantages to this in a material sense such as progression, innovation etc but it also has consequences, one example is depression which is on the rise in the West. West has focused itself on 3 aspects (the universe, the body, worldly life) and shunned the other 3 (God, the soul, afterlife).
Whether you agree or not humans have other needs too. Certain realities cannot be rationalised such as Love.
Looking at everything through a rational lens is neither valid nor healthy.
It's okay not to believe in God until one is convinced but it's also important to be on the journey to find Truth and reality. Sincerity, unbiasedness and honesty is the key.
I have lived in London for 20+ years and find myself to be very lucky to have experienced western and eastern cultures both. I call one “mind” and the other one “heart” culture. Though you can argue now because the eastern culture is almost dying and has become a jumble.
Imagine if you were born in Baghdad in 900AD. Would you have felt the same level of discontent and distressed about the things that you do now?
It's not Islam, it's the Muslims and their weaknesses that have brought them to this low state.

6) I may have felt to you as if I was jumping from one argument to another but there were so many other different topics connected to this debate that I found myself compelled to.
I don't know if you may have noticed through my questions that I do have knowledge of quantum mechanics, I also, recognize philosophy.
You are not the first Atheist I have engaged in the discussion with ?.

I am a rational person too, irrationality and superstitions also disturb me but it's important not to isolate oneself.
There are loads of stuff I can discuss relating to these issues but I think I should call it a day.

I enjoyed communicating with you. Please excuse me if I have hurt your feelings in any way. I know you are a good human being and I wish you love, peace and harmony in life. Also, all the best with whatever you do.
Take care.
 
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