Ibn Rushd vs Ghazali: Did the Muslim world take a wrong turn?

[hammy_lucky]

They don’t match with the modern versions. According to your own standard narrative, Quran was complied after death of Muhammad. Later Hajjaj Bin Yousaf made changes to Quran and Abbasids added Zair zabbar to it many decades later. Masjid Aqsa built around 694 added has a verse on its walls that was completely missing from modern Quran. The version you read now is the 1924 Cairo version but there are at-least 6 other versions of Quran.
It’s not my fault that you haven’t studied your own religion.

It's all a mess in your head.
Hajjaj bin Yousuf didn't make changes to the Quran, he added zer zabar and not the Abbasids.

During the 23 years of Muhammad's time as a prophet, the verses of the Quran were memorized as they were revealed, and about 42 scribes wrote the verses on different materials such as paper, cloth, bone fragments and leather.

In ancient times, literacy was a skill that few people had and Muhammad himself did not know how to read or write.
You are mixing a lot of things here such as writing style with contents.
Please provide evidence of any of the other versions. Simply quoting false stories from history is not enough.
Don't worry I know my religion and history very well.
Serial killers are not going to heaven just because they are Muslims.
And Non-believers are going to go to hell because of Arrogance over their ignorance but you don't believe in the afterlife anyway so it's not your concern yet.

Let's finish this for now. I have started to lose interest because either you are stubborn or have started to act like a weasel now.

 

[Vitamin_C]

And Non-believers are going to go to hell because of Arrogance over their ignorance but you don't believe in the afterlife anyway so it's not your concern yet.

So in other words going to heaven or hell doesnt depend on morality but on whether or not you believe.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Hajjaj bin Yousuf didn't make changes to the Quran, he added zer zabar and not the Abbasids.

Yes my mistake, Hajjaj Bin Yousaf was Umayyad not Abassid.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Serial killers are not going to heaven just because they are Muslims.

Thats not correct, in Islam Allah forgives every sin as long as the person is a Muslim and repents before dying.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Let's finish this for now. I have started to lose interest because either you are stubborn or have started to act like a weasel now.

How am I acting like a weasel? You threw bad argument after bad argument and I called you out. I admit when I am wrong. How many times did I point out that your argument is fallacious and you still kept repeating the same argument even though I told you its not valid because of a logical error.

You are behaving like an apologist. Not giving any logical answer but making up gol matol arguments just to justify your irrational beliefs.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Please provide evidence of any of the other versions. Simply quoting false stories from history is not enough.

Every part of Muslim world uses different version of Quran, from North Africa, to Saudi Arabia to Central Asia to Malaysia and Indonesia.

Some of the versions include:
Hafs: I believe this is what we have in Saudi Arabia
Warsh: This is what is used in Morocco
Al-Susi
Doori
Ruh
Albaazi

This online Quran store sells 13 different variants of Quran

Tajweed Quran - Dar AL-Maarifa

Learn about out never ending patents: color coded tajweed quran. we ship from uk. Produced by Dar AL-Maarifa

www.easyquranstore.com

The differences include:
Different prounouns
Grammatical errors in some versions but corrected in others
Completely different words being used
Completely different sentence structures
Differences in Verbs being used
Verses re arranged

 

[Vitamin_C]

You are mixing a lot of things here such as writing style with contents.

Oh its more than just writing style:

Heres a short video from Pakistani youtubers about different Quran versions:

Its not just about recitation style, entire words are missing and meanings of words are different from one version to the other.

 

[Vitamin_C]

You seem to have a very unique opinion and knowledge of history. I can't even think of arguing with these stupid versions. I am speechless.

Events from the Biography of Prophet

From Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasulallah:

The apostle had instructed his commanders when they entered Mecca only to fight those who resisted them except a small number who were to be killed even if they were found beneath the curtains of the Ka`ba. Among them was `Abdullah b. Sa`d, brother of the B. `Amir b. Lu'ayy. The reason he ordered him to be killed was that he had been a Muslim and used to write down revelation; then he apostatized and returned to Qurahysh [Mecca] and fled to `Uthman b. `Affan whose foster brother he was. [`Uthman was one of Muhammad's closest friends, and later became the Caliph of Islam]. The latter hid him until he brought him to the apostle after the situation in Mecca was tranquil, and asked that he might be granted immunity. They allege that the apostle remained silent for a long time till finally he said yes, [granting `Abdullah immunity from the execution order]. When `Uthman had left he [Muhammad] said to his companions who were sitting around him, "I kept silent so that one of you might get up and strike off his head!" One of the Ansar [Muhammad's helpers from Medina] said, then why didn't you give me a sign, O apostle of God?" He [Muhammad] answered that a prophet does not kill by pointing.????

Ibn Ishaq is the original prophets biography, it was written before hadiths were compiled and hadiths were taken from this biography.

Same Story from different biography but with more details on the same event:

Al Iraqi's Al-Sira
The scribes of Muhammad were 42 in number. `Abdallah Ibn Sarh al-`Amiri was one of them, and he was the first Quraishite among those who wrote in Mecca before he turned away from Islam. He started saying, "I used to direct Muhammad wherever I willed. He would dictate to me 'Most High, All-Wise', and I would write down 'All-Wise' only. Then he would say, 'Yes it is all the same'. On a certain occasion he said, 'Write such and such', but I wrote 'Write' only, and he said, 'Write whatever you like.'" So when this scribe exposed Muhammad, he wrote in the Qur'an, "And who does greater evil than he who forges against God a lie, or says, 'To me it has been revealed', when naught has been revealed to him." So on the day Muhammad conquered Mecca, he commanded his scribe to be killed. But the scribe fled to `Uthman Ibn `Affan, because `Uthman was his foster brother (his mother suckled `Uthman). `Uthman, therefore, kept him away from Muhammad. After the people calmed down, `Uthman brought the scribe to Muhammad and sought protection for him. Muhammad kept silent for a long time, after which he said yes. When `Uthman had left, Muhammad said "I only kept silent so that you (the people) should kill him."

Note that Ibn Sarh was the original Qari of Quran. He was the first one to write it down and recite it. When people wanted to learn how to recite Quran properly Muhammad used to send them to Ibn Sarh.

LOL did you notice that last sentence in red? When Uthamn left Muhammad was saying to his companions that he stayed quiet because he was hoping that his sahabas would just step in and kill Ibn Sarh ??

Mention in Quran
Tafsir of Surah Al-Anam 6:93 by Al Baidawi
"'To me it has been revealed', when naught has been revealed to him" refers to `Abdallah Ibn Sa`d Ibn Abi Sarh, who used to write for God's messenger. The verse (23:12) that says, "We created man of an extraction of clay" was revealed, and when Muhammad reached the part that says, "... thereafter We produced him as another creature (23:14), `Abdallah said, "So blessed be God the fairest of creators!" in amazement at the details of man's creation. The prophet said, "Write it down; for thus it has been revealed." `Abdallah doubted and said, "If Muhammad is truthful then I receive the revelation as much as he does, and if he is a liar, what I said is a good as what he said."

 

[hammy_lucky]

Oh its more than just writing style:

Heres a short video from Pakistani youtubers about different Quran versions:

Its not just about recitation style, entire words are missing and meanings of words are different from one version to the other.

Interesting issue isn’t it? The claim of “Quran being the most authentic book in the world”, the idea of Quran being “The only unaltered divine message now” and that Quran being “The last authentic revelation from God”, all are defied. So, to resolve this once and for all, we need to discuss several controversial ideas.

The source of the issue​

The misunderstanding arose from Anti-Islamists and non-Muslims “Ignorantly” claiming that “qira’at” a plural word, actually means different versions of Quran and wrongfully spread the idea amongst all who would listen even ignorant Muslims.

So, What are qira’at?​

“Qira’at” a plural word literally means “recites”. Technically ‘Qira’at’ refers to “agreed upon (by Muslim scholars) oral recitation methods of Quran.”

Traditionally, there are 10 recognized (agreed upon by Muslim scholars), from which seven categorized by a Muslim scholar “Abu Bakr Ibn Mujahid as most authentic and accepted. All Sahih Qira’at (authentic) were taught and revised orally and personally by the Prophet (PBUH)with his companions till the end of his blessed life, according to a Sahih Hadith (authentic Prophetic saying) narrated by Ibn Masoud.

Schools of Qira’at, each one derives its name from a famous reader of Quran recitation taught by the Messenger (PBUH).​

These Readings differ only in ways that DO NOT IN ANY WAY COMPROMISE MEANINGS OR PERMIT WHAT IS FORBIDDEN.



For example: There is English with Irish accent, English with Scottish accent and so on.

Can I say “ There are different kinds of English, Irish, Scottish, …?!”

Then, How do qira’at differ?​

Let me emphasize here on the fact that Quran is preserved both orally and in writing. The different styles of recitation are not all authentic except for those the Muslims agreed on (that scholars see authentic) which are ten. So, what criteria made those authentic?

For a Qira’ah to be considered authentic it must be:

1. The condition of Tawaatur: having an authentic chain of narration (Reliable, numerous and continuous chain of narrators) back to the Messenger of Allah (PBUH).
2. The variations in recitations should match known Arabic grammatical constructions. In case of unusual constructions, it could be verified by their existence in passages of pre-Islamic prose or poetry that are known.
3. The recitation should coincide with the script of one of the copies of the Quran distributed during the era of Caliph Uthmân (third Caliph) which is written according to Quraysh’s dialect (the tribe of the Prophet).

What about the written Quran (printed editions)?​

Qira’at exist in printed editions as well nowadays. Even most Muslims are not aware of this fact, but each Mus’haf (printed Quran) carries either in the beginning or in the end the rules of pronunciation of that Qira’ah as well as the Isnad (narration authentication).

However, It must be said that the first written Quran was dictated by the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) to specific known companions immediately after revelation, as well as the memorizers and those writings were the source of the first round of Quran collection and authentication during Abu Bakr’s time (first Calif) and the second round of Quran collection and authentication during Uthman’s time (third Calif) in Quraysh tribe dialect.

Both writings were devoid from dots and diacritical markings which were introduced later on by Muslim scholars to insure correct pronunciation of the written Quran in accordance with the recited authentic Qira’at.

Muslim scholars introduced dots and diacritical markings to Arabic writing. The most renowned of are Abu’l Aswad ad-Du’alî (d. 69 / 688), Naṣr Ibn ʿĀṣim (d. 89 / 707) and Yaḥya Ibn Yaʿmur (d.129 /746).

How different are the qira’at?​

Subhii al-Saalih in his book in the study of Science of Quran summarizes the differences into seven categories of differences :

1. Grammatical indicator.
2. Consonants.
3. Nouns as to whether they are singular, dual, plural, masculine or feminine.
4. Differences in which there is a substitution of one word for another.
5. Due to reversal of word order in expressions where the reversal is meaningful in the Arabic language in general or in the structure of the expression in particular.
6. Small addition or deletion in accordance with the custom of the Arabs.
7. Due to dialectical peculiarities.

We can also add to this list the difference in the status of the Basmalah.

A fact to remember; those Qira’at are all authentic and traced all the way back to the Messenger Muhammad (PBUH). (1)

Conclusion:​

Qira’at are not the different “versions” or “texts” of the Qur’an as fantasized by non-Muslims and anti-Islamists. Qira’at are authentic divine revelations of Quran that are handed down unaltered from the Messenger of Allah (PBUH). Although they differ in many aspects, they convey the same meaning and message. Quran contains a verse conveying that Allah confirms His preservation of the Quran until The Day of Judgment.

Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur’an and indeed, We will be its guardian” [Quran 15:9]

 

[hammy_lucky]

Events from the Biography of Prophet

From Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasulallah:

The apostle had instructed his commanders when they entered Mecca only to fight those who resisted them except a small number who were to be killed even if they were found beneath the curtains of the Ka`ba. Among them was `Abdullah b. Sa`d, brother of the B. `Amir b. Lu'ayy. The reason he ordered him to be killed was that he had been a Muslim and used to write down revelation; then he apostatized and returned to Qurahysh [Mecca] and fled to `Uthman b. `Affan whose foster brother he was. [`Uthman was one of Muhammad's closest friends, and later became the Caliph of Islam]. The latter hid him until he brought him to the apostle after the situation in Mecca was tranquil, and asked that he might be granted immunity. They allege that the apostle remained silent for a long time till finally he said yes, [granting `Abdullah immunity from the execution order]. When `Uthman had left he [Muhammad] said to his companions who were sitting around him, "I kept silent so that one of you might get up and strike off his head!" One of the Ansar [Muhammad's helpers from Medina] said, then why didn't you give me a sign, O apostle of God?" He [Muhammad] answered that a prophet does not kill by pointing.????

Ibn Ishaq is the original prophets biography, it was written before hadiths were compiled and hadiths were taken from this biography.

Same Story from different biography but with more details on the same event:

Al Iraqi's Al-Sira
The scribes of Muhammad were 42 in number. `Abdallah Ibn Sarh al-`Amiri was one of them, and he was the first Quraishite among those who wrote in Mecca before he turned away from Islam. He started saying, "I used to direct Muhammad wherever I willed. He would dictate to me 'Most High, All-Wise', and I would write down 'All-Wise' only. Then he would say, 'Yes it is all the same'. On a certain occasion he said, 'Write such and such', but I wrote 'Write' only, and he said, 'Write whatever you like.'" So when this scribe exposed Muhammad, he wrote in the Qur'an, "And who does greater evil than he who forges against God a lie, or says, 'To me it has been revealed', when naught has been revealed to him." So on the day Muhammad conquered Mecca, he commanded his scribe to be killed. But the scribe fled to `Uthman Ibn `Affan, because `Uthman was his foster brother (his mother suckled `Uthman). `Uthman, therefore, kept him away from Muhammad. After the people calmed down, `Uthman brought the scribe to Muhammad and sought protection for him. Muhammad kept silent for a long time, after which he said yes. When `Uthman had left, Muhammad said "I only kept silent so that you (the people) should kill him."

Note that Ibn Sarh was the original Qari of Quran. He was the first one to write it down and recite it. When people wanted to learn how to recite Quran properly Muhammad used to send them to Ibn Sarh.

LOL did you notice that last sentence in red? When Uthamn left Muhammad was saying to his companions that he stayed quiet because he was hoping that his sahabas would just step in and kill Ibn Sarh ??

Mention in Quran
Tafsir of Surah Al-Anam 6:93 by Al Baidawi
"'To me it has been revealed', when naught has been revealed to him" refers to `Abdallah Ibn Sa`d Ibn Abi Sarh, who used to write for God's messenger. The verse (23:12) that says, "We created man of an extraction of clay" was revealed, and when Muhammad reached the part that says, "... thereafter We produced him as another creature (23:14), `Abdallah said, "So blessed be God the fairest of creators!" in amazement at the details of man's creation. The prophet said, "Write it down; for thus it has been revealed." `Abdallah doubted and said, "If Muhammad is truthful then I receive the revelation as much as he does, and if he is a liar, what I said is a good as what he said."

Do I have to enter into a debate on Authenticity and reliability of history and historians?

There are even absurd hadiths. So Do I have to teach you ‘ilm ul rijjal’ too?

Your mind is working only in a Black & White manner. Its time consuming for me to explain every misunderstanding you have.

 

[hammy_lucky]

How am I acting like a weasel? You threw bad argument after bad argument and I called you out. I admit when I am wrong. How many times did I point out that your argument is fallacious and you still kept repeating the same argument even though I told you its not valid because of a logical error.

You are behaving like an apologist. Not giving any logical answer but making up gol matol arguments just to justify your irrational beliefs.

Bad Arguments or Good, Apologist or irrational. It's all your subjective judgement.
Advise. Try practising ‘grey thinking.’

 

[hammy_lucky]

Thats not correct, in Islam Allah forgives every sin as long as the person is a Muslim and repents before dying.

Which sins are forgiven after acceptance of mistakes and repentence are subject to God’s discretion .He is all-wise and knowing.
Arrogance is the biggest sin in any religion. So for an Arrogant person without repentance, there is absolutely no chance for mercy.
And Yes I do acknowledge that you have accepted your mistake a few times.

Let me explain where I stand.

I agree with you that absolute evidences for God and Islam being true are impossible and becomes a subjective matter.

As I mentioned to you earlier that determining the Objective reality of God becomes impossible and ultimately it will involve faith which ultimately leads to choosing from different arguments. Whichever finds the individual more reasonable.
You also have faith (you call it beyond a reasonable doubt) in your faculties to lead you to Truth.
The only problem with your arguments is that you have believed that ‘your philosophy’ is the best available framework in which you can seek the truth.
Had it been the case why so many of the philosophers were theists than?

I have major issues with the understandings of religions by people including Muslims. God is an abstract idea and many abstract ideas are very important to humans. It provides them with something to hang on to. It provides them with the advantages of collectivism.
You accepted the fact that Aqal is a two-edged sword that's exactly what happens in reality. There are goods & bad, advantages & disadvantages on both sides of an argument at times.
I believe in secularism as opposed to religious administrations. It's the misunderstanding of Islam and history that has created even more confusions in the minds today.

Freedom of thought and action is every individual’s right.

God is Just. If a person does good in the world and is not Arrogant in disbelief but instead accept his limitations regardless of not getting convinced with the arguments in favour of God, I believe he will be dealt justly. After all, he is the only Creator of all his creations.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Conclusion:​

Qira’at are not the different “versions” or “texts” of the Qur’an as fantasized by non-Muslims and anti-Islamists. Qira’at are authentic divine revelations of Quran that are handed down unaltered from the Messenger of Allah (PBUH). Although they differ in many aspects, they convey the same meaning and message. Quran contains a verse conveying that Allah confirms His preservation of the Quran until The Day of Judgment.

There is a major flaw in your argument. The versions are not the same. Some of them have words missing, some of them use different words that change the meaning of the words. So they are not the same books. Most of it is the same but they are not completely the same. Some of them even contradict each other, some of them have grammatical mistakes that are corrected by other versions. So they meet the definition of versions not just Qirats as you are claiming.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Bad Arguments or Good, Apologist or irrational. It's all your subjective judgement.
Advise. Try practising ‘grey thinking.’

It’s not a subjective claim. We have definitions of different logical fallacies. I can pin you down if I want but I am taking it easy on you because I know that you have a weak understanding of logic and reason. That’s why I let you jump from one argument to another. But I normally pin people down to their bad argument before letting them move forward.

I called you out many times and if you were honest, you would address the problems in your arguments before moving to a different argument.

You don’t really care if you’re arguments are valid or not, all you are doing just like Christians and Muslims apologists is throw any argument you can find just to justify your beliefs.

I demonstrated with evidence that there are different versions of Quran with different names that are using completely different wordings and words missing, grammatical mistakes and corrections and then again you are lying because you just need a reason to continue your irrational beliefs with dishonesty.

And it’s a gol matol argument that God revealed Quran in different dialects. If that is the case then why not reveal it in other languages too that people can actually understand?

Over 80% of the old world spoke Indo-European and Sino-Tibetan Languages, so Allah bothered to reveal over 13 different Qurans in different Arabic’s but no Quran in any of the popular languages. Sounds legit.

This type of arguments are called na sir an pair sirf hawa di fire.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Do I have to enter into a debate on Authenticity and reliability of history and historians?

You have so far demonstrated you have no knowledge of Islam. Many of the things I am mentioning I guarantee you that you didn’t even know before and you had to search it up.

Your original position was disbelief in what I am saying about Ibn Sarh.

Then when I showed you proof from your own authentic books you tried to weasel your way out by saying I cannot use Islamic books as evidence because I am not Muslim. What a bongi argument.

Then when I told you I am showing it to you because you believe it as it would make no sense for me to use atheist books to explain to you Islam.

And now your still in disbelief trying to question the only book you have to prove Muhammad even existed.

What can I say. You are chopping your own foot with an axe. Without Ibn Ishaq there are no hadiths. Without Hadiths there is no Islam. Quran doesn’t have the Qalima in it, it doesn’t have the methods of prayers and other important things that Muslims have to practise to be a Muslim.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Arrogance is the biggest sin in any religion. So for an

Its shirk is the biggest sin, not arrogance.

Arrogance is necessary to be religious.

You guys are the smartest in the world because you have the absolute knowledge of everything because an angel came from the creator of 400 billion galaxies and handed the explanations to you on the platter.

And then you your fellow Muslims shit on evolutionary biologists and others who sacrificed their entire life to find the real answers and they are humble to say that they don’t know every thing.

Is there any bigger arrogance than that?

 

[Vitamin_C]

Which sins are forgiven after acceptance of mistakes and repentence are subject to God’s discretion .He is all-wise and knowing.

Everything is up to Gods discretion, he can send Muhammad to hell too if he wanted to.

But what is Islam’s position on this?

Being moral on its own doesn’t decide if you will go to heaven or hell.

It’s decided on whether you believe or don’t believe.

And it has nothing to do with arrogance. God only sends messengers to the same Arabian dessert. Never to the civilized world like Greece, India, China or the Americas. There is no books in those countries that even remotely mention anything about Allah. Even though these people write everything down better than Arabs. They will all go to hell because Allah decided to neglect them, not because they were arrogant or immoral.

And here’s the kicker. Your religion is not under your control. 99% of the people believe the religion they are born in until they die. So if Allah commands a person to be born a Hindu in India then that person has almost no chance of heaven. Allah already screwed him over from the start.

 

[Vitamin_C]

The only problem with your arguments is that you have believed that ‘your philosophy’ is the best available framework in which you can seek the truth.
Had it been the case why so many of the philosophers were theists than?

For the same reason why many Harvard Geologists believe Earth is 6000 years old even though they admit that the evidence suggest Earth is over 4 billion years old.

It can be anything, childhood brainwashing, societal pressure and family pressure. Or it’s just that they want to believe it on faith with no reason.

 

[Vitamin_C]

You also have faith (you call it beyond a reasonable doubt) in your faculties to lead you to Truth.

You don’t need faith to believe something is proved with evidence beyond reasonable doubt.

You only need faith to believe something about which we have no evidence and we have reasonable doubts it like your imaginary friend Allah for example.

The two are not even remotely the same.

 

[Vitamin_C]

The only problem with your arguments is that you have believed that ‘your philosophy’ is the best available framework in which you can seek the truth.
Had it been the case why so many of the philosophers were theists than?

It’s not ‘my philosophy’. It’s demonstrably the best method of studying and categorizing arguments and claim that people from many different civilizations including Greeks, Romans, Indians, Chinese, Arabs have worked on and agreed in for last few thousand years.

The arguments you are coming up with for example special pleading for God to be excused from being proven using logic and reason are not new arguments. They have already been studied and rubbished long time ago and we even have a fallacy named and dedicated after it called ‘special pleading fallacy’.

Your religion is basically saying, do whatever good you want it means fuck all to me if you don’t believe. And that you have to believe with either no or bad evidence and there is no logic or reason behind it so just take it on blind faith or you go to hell. This is stupidity of the highest order.