Good advice by Rauf Klasra, he speaks the truth!!!!!

[rtabasum2]

What do you mean by "as well"?:P

Obviously Klasara is saying the truth whether u agree or not him being drunk, the historical facts r right but it being a part of syllabus is too much to ask

 

[حکایت جنوں]

We are talking about the syllabus of schools. We don't need to go into details and pass judgments on history because we don't have that capacity to comprehend what has happened to us by whom. Let alone we can confuse the children. Lets stick to the lessons of history that we know for sure.

If this has to be taught at the higher level then there is no problem in teaching this topic at higher levels. We need to lay out the facts as we know them and present all sides and then let the students make up their own minds based on the facts that are available to them 'now'.

I personally think that PTI is lost and they should not involve themselves in more controversies at this time and stay clear of these ideological debates. Teaching or determining this at the school level will not help feed the poor or provide education to the underprivileged or provide medical facilities or create economic opportunities.

It may satisfy us, the internet armchair warriors, that these forces be called out but what we need is realistic solutions to real world problems and not some esoteric and abstract ideological debates.

I agree with you especially with the highlighted part. In fact this is what I wanted to say. As you know, my responses are sometimes much stronger than needed but my point was that at this level, we shouldn't enter into such details on the school or even university level. Our priority should be for the time being is to provide good education which can help us to develop our country, good governance, infrastructure and not the least eradicate poverty. Once education standards are high, more tolerance in the society and better educated minds are available, we can go into finer details of history and start a dialogue on our history, culture, religion and the sources of conflicts which destroyed our society.

 

[rtabasum2]

Whats the biggest change we are yearning for? Is it the correction of our collective ideology? Or is it as simple as creating economic opportunities and environment and controlling the corruption? Lot of things will fall in place if you do that. You go to to the street anywhere in Pakistan and the common person would not be looking for correction or formulation of our ideology rather they would ask why things and systems are broken around him/her. If you start to compile a list of who has hurt us at the macro level then it will be a long one. Not saying that we should ignore it. All I am saying is that you have prioritize. Take the low hanging fruit. Once you learn to stand on your own two feet then aim for the higher and address the more esoteric and abstract issues.



On a higher level I completely agree with you.

I have couple of observations though. One is that I believe that it would have been a let down as its obvious that he may have been a good captain of a small group of highly skilled team but he is not a good administrator on a big scale. That is just my observation and you are free to disagree. I believe this would have backfired.

The other observation is that you are blaming Punjab lobby but the common wisdom is that if you are a national leader then its beneath you to go to a provincial level position. You are basically demoting yourself. This is a case of feeling entitled. This will be akin to Benazir becoming the PM without ever holding any other office or bilawal, if he is elected, will be the PM, or IK thinking that he has to be PM but he can't be education minister in KPK or the health minister or a common minister or heck the minister of tourism and prove his case that he has the ability to govern and turn things around.

I think we are still stuck in this discussion about PTI or no PTI. In my opinion the discourse has gone way past that now.

I can tell you, given what we see on the ground right now, things will not be too much different than what they are presently if PTI had won or if they win an election tomorrow.

Oh no my valuable yrs just went down the drain, all this hue n cry for nothing, no of profanities exchanged was all for nothing, the only winner was @Adeel who made a few quick millions at our amusement. Oh poor us:(

 

[حکایت جنوں]

Care to elaborate please?

As I said in my post 4 such discussion will necessarily lead us to some ideological and theoretical discussion which are not suitable at the school level. This needs in fact a wide ranged dialogue in the society a better consciousness of our problems and its sources. It is not a simple matter of corruption of some generals and JI. Once a consensus on major issues is achieved it can be reflected in syllabus.
Other issue is that nature and contents of education are also decided by the interests of elites. Thus, we must have to make compromises with the elites otherwise not a slightest change is possible. No radical solutions are available. The solution which other societies found is that the radical or ideological or theoretical position are left to intellectual groups which keep on disseminating their opinions through media and teaching but the syllabus especially at school and college level reflects the consensus of the society and powerful elites.

 

[حکایت جنوں]

Obviously Klasara is saying the truth whether u agree or not him being drunk, the historical facts r right but it being a part of syllabus is too much to ask

Plz see my post 24. I believe that Klasra didn't ponder much on what he wrote. Some of the reasons I gave in the post 24

 

[mrk123]

I agree with you especially with the highlighted part. In fact this is what I wanted to say. As you know, my responses are sometimes much stronger than needed but my point was that at this level, we shouldn't enter into such details on the school or even university level. Our priority should be for the time being is to provide good education which can help us to develop our country, good governance, infrastructure and not the least eradicate poverty. Once education standards are high, more tolerance in the society and better educated minds are available, we can go into finer details of history and start a dialogue on our history, culture, religion and the sources of conflicts which destroyed our society.

couldnt agree more!

even though klasra may be right in his right in his observation i would like us to stay away from this.
but i dont mind this kind of article which gives a rhetorical suggestion in our papers.

 

[mrk123]

Oh no my valuable yrs just went down the drain, all this hue n cry for nothing, no of profanities exchanged was all for nothing, the only winner was @Adeel who made a few quick millions at our amusement. Oh poor us:(

LOL

once i made a comment about how they could improve the site and gave a suggestion on how they could increase visitors to their site and adeel retorted that i got it all wrong and he was not in it for money or more traffic ;)

can i have my share from the millions please? A grand or two would be good enough for me ;)

 

[حکایت جنوں]

LOL

once i made a comment about how they could improve the site and gave a suggestion on how they could increase visitors to their site and adeel retorted that i got it all wrong and he was not in it for money or more traffic ;)

can i have my share from the millions please? A grand or two would be good enough for me ;)

I agree. The major contributors should have share in the profit(cry)

 

[rtabasum2]

I agree. The major contributors should have share in the profit(cry)

@Raaz and @Barca wud be competing with Bill Gates if that was the case(bigsmile)

 

[حکایت جنوں]

@

mrk123, ​

rtabasum2

​

We are wasting our time in this "meaningless" discussion. Enjoy some pictures of IK and the dharna with some posters by a very "well-reputed" Mansha Sindhu.

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthre...y-(8тн-Noveмвer-2014)

 

[حکایت جنوں]

@Raaz and @Barca wud be competing with Bill Gates if that was the case(bigsmile)

You forgot Sohraab, great Nawab Sahib, probably due to ideological reasons:P

 

[my_id]

How can KPK Gov change the course when their leader politics is based on TTP appeasement?

 

[my_id]

@

mrk123, ​

rtabasum2
We are wasting our time in this "meaningless" discussion. Enjoy some pictures of IK and the dharna with some posters by a very "well-reputed" Mansha Sindhu.

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthre...y-(8тн-Noveмвer-2014)

Kids like to take their picture with clown. It is a childhood thing and many has done it, either with clowns or animals.

The whole IK picture series is just the same.

 

[frenes]

سب اپنی اوقات کے مطابق کام کر رہیں ہیں معیار کسی ایک کا بھی نہیں ہے

 

[Jaba67]

Factual truth by RK, When you are dealing with Jew controlled America aka SATAN, You have to have BRAINS, WHICH NON OF THESE BROWN SLAVE ELITE WITH FAKE DEGREES EVER HAD. I include the over weight generals, who speak ENGLISH.

What the country needs is a revolution similar to Iran. Only way to get rid of this tumor of noora clan and that donkey clan of billow rani queer.

 

[loser24x7]

Correct......history is what each side explains from its own perspective.........WW1,11; Partition of India and subsequent wars; Cold War eras; Capitalist explosion and Communist resistance and extinction carry manifold explanations. Afghan war been the most complex crisis involving super powers, regional powers, state powers, and local tribal strength. where each one rely over the other. It was the only war where direct conflict was fought mostly in proxy context. First time super powers confronted each other while keeping their nuclear arsenals and threats aside. It changed all the war fighting strategies, drilled mechanisms, and doctrines. Fighting even a non-conventional war under the umbrella of nuclear deterrence changed the whole nature of nuclear deterrence. Pakistan in particular managed its survival at a time when US and the West were reluctant to resist the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan. It was ISI and Pakistan military strategy to counter Soviet generally prospective however ensured move towards the South through Pakistan. So Pakistan successfully utilised all available options as the urgency of time. Pakistan not only countered the immanent threat on to its Western and Eastern borders but forced the Soviet aggression enough to have backlash on its own integrity and unity. It was in fact a miracle on the part of Pakistan for bearing the threshold of such a long war, developing its Nuclear capability, managing millions of Afghan refugees, and maintaining its national sanctity. The ultimate struggle and war had its toll on the demography and cultural identity of the nation that transformed from a liberal to a semi-religious/conservative society. The need was to control the pace of after shocks, that successive Pakistani political regimes failed to accomplish. Vested political and parochial interested mortgaged national interests. The mushrooming of groups was not sorted out but was empowered to guarantee vested interests, that in turn ensured groups survival, that unleashed mutual differences and feuds and use of all means including drugs and target and suicide killing, and becoming 'rent-a-force'. It become so difficult to manage the decades old war fighting psychology and infrastructure, however so easy to blame one or all.

I just want to add a few quick comments here. Pakistani generals didn't have the vision to know what kind of messy turn this war would take after it is over. They didn't know it would pronounce the demise of their cherished doctrine of strategic depth. Pakistani startegists could've managed it better without letting their country run over by millions of refugees and the baggage they brought with them. But Pakistanis, from top to bottom, act on their whims. The mustachioed general didn't know he had been used, abused and would be trashed in the dumpster of history soon. Once the "moral equivalents of U.S. founding fathers" apparently emerged victorious, they weren't ready to go back to the bliss of pre-war tribal setup of coexistence. Pakistani generals didn't let up and still continued stoking fire by picking sides until their own country started buring all over. I don't agree that Afghan war was an ideolgical war that was fought to save Islam. It was basically Afgan resistance movement that was taken over by a distant superpower seeking vengeance of Vietnam defeat and ending the cold war. Pakistan volunteered to host the can of worms and now there is no end to its woes. Jis adami nain pakistan ko iss jang main jhoka, usi nain kaha ke " koilon ki dallali mein hamaara moonh kala ho gya hai"

 

[Pak1stani]

His column is not in love of pashtuns but in hate of Jamat Islami

 

[Abdul jabbar]

کلاسرا کی بانسری کوئی اور بجاتا ہے ،جماعت اسلامی کا نام تو ویسے ہی اس کی دکھتی رگ کو چھیڑنا ہے ،آج کل یہ تحریک انصاف کے پیچھے بھی ہاتھ دھو کر پڑھا ہوا ہے
یہ جاہل لفافہ صحافی مغرب کا نمائندہ ہے جس کا کام ہر وقت الزمات لگانا ہوتا ہے ،اسلامی جماعتوں سے اس کو خاص طور پر خارش ہے ،جس کا اظہار یہ اکثر کرتا رہتا ہے


​

محترم، نظریاتی مخالفوں کا کام تو مخالفت کرنا ہوتا ہےاور یہ بندہ ایسا ہی کر رہا ہے ۔لیکن کیا یہ بات آپ کے سوچنے کی نہیں کہ آپ خود کیا کر رہے ہیں؟
اس بات کو دوست دشمن سبھی مانتے ہیں کہ پاکستان کی سیاسی جماعتوں میں سب سے زیادہ منظم،میچور اور جمہوری جماعت ،جماعت اسلامی ہے،ایک مذہبی جماعت ہونے کے باوجود فرقہ بازی کی لعنت سے پاک اور اتحاد بین المسلمین کے لئے کوشاں ہے ،معاشی نا ہمواریوں کا ادراک رکھتی اس کا ازالہ چاہتی ہے،اس کے لیڈران سے کارکنوں تک حکومتوں میں رہنے کے باوجود کرپشن کا کوئی الزام بھی نہیں ، تو پھر کیوں لوگ انہیں مسترد کر دیتے ہیں؟
کراچی جو کبھی جماعت کا گڑھ تھا ایم کیو ایم نے چھین لیا،لاہور کی ایک دو سیٹیں تھیں وہ بھی نہ رہیں تمام کالج اور یونیورسٹیز میں جمیعت کا راج تھا ،آج کیا صورت حال ہے،سوائے کے پی کے کی چند سیٹوں کے جماعت کہاں ہے، نوبت یہاں تک آ گئی کہ عمران جس کے پنجاب یونیورسٹی میں داخلے پر جمیعت نے ادھم مچا دیا تھا کی بغل بچہ بن کر اپنا وجود برقرار رکھنے کی کوشش کی جا رہی ہے، کیا ایسی غلطی ہی تو دہرائی نہیں جا رہی جیسی قاضی صاحب کے دور میں کی گئی تھی کہ جماعت کے اپنے ممبران تک نے جماعت کو ووٹ نہیں دئے تھے ۔ غور کرنے کی ضرورت نہیں کہ نیو ایئر نائٹ ہوٹلوں اور کلبوں میں جانے والے افراد کو روکنے اور ناچ گانے جشن منانے والوں سے پھڈا کرنے والے اسلامی اذھان سر عام دھرنے کے نام پر نوجوان لڑکیوں اور لڑکوں کی دھماچوکڑی ہضم کر لیں گے ۔

 

[amber123]

I just want to add a few quick comments here. Pakistani generals didn't have the vision to know what kind of messy turn this war would take after it is over. They didn't know it would pronounce the demise of their cherished doctrine of strategic depth. Pakistani startegists could've managed it better without letting their country run over by millions of refugees and the baggage they brought with them. But Pakistanis, from top to bottom, act on their whims. The mustachioed general didn't know he had been used, abused and would be trashed in the dumpster of history soon. Once the "moral equivalents of U.S. founding fathers" apparently emerged victorious, they weren't ready to go back to the bliss of pre-war tribal setup of coexistence. Pakistani generals didn't let up and still continued stoking fire by picking sides until their own country started buring all over. I don't agree that Afghan war was an ideolgical war that was fought to save Islam. It was basically Afgan resistance movement that was taken over by a distant superpower seeking vengeance of Vietnam defeat and ending the cold war. Pakistan volunteered to host the can of worms and now there is no end to its woes. Jis adami nain pakistan ko iss jang main jhoka, usi nain kaha ke " koilon ki dallali mein hamaara moonh kala ho gya hai"

Thanks for comprehending the debate.........no doubt Afghan war was not an idealogical war, rather idealogical edge was crafted for public sentiment and also for 'soldiers' to legitimise participation in that crisis. Pakistan army potential is always focused on war fighting strategies and not on 'total strategy' how to accomplish the strategically defined goals out of a military conflict. Pakistan lost the 'somehow' achieved battlefield edges on negotiating tables. In a global conflict, settled in Afghanistan Pakistan even lost its most dear strategic depth vis a vis Afghanistan. Pakistan attempted to enhance the same strategic depth through its nuclear potential vis a vis India, and other potential threats. However India's contemporary aggression on the Eastern border seems to test this doctrine also.

 

[Afaq Chaudhry]

محترم، نظریاتی مخالفوں کا کام تو مخالفت کرنا ہوتا ہےاور یہ بندہ ایسا ہی کر رہا ہے ۔لیکن کیا یہ بات آپ کے سوچنے کی نہیں کہ آپ خود کیا کر رہے ہیں؟
اس بات کو دوست دشمن سبھی مانتے ہیں کہ پاکستان کی سیاسی جماعتوں میں سب سے زیادہ منظم،میچور اور جمہوری جماعت ،جماعت اسلامی ہے،ایک مذہبی جماعت ہونے کے باوجود فرقہ بازی کی لعنت سے پاک اور اتحاد بین المسلمین کے لئے کوشاں ہے ،معاشی نا ہمواریوں کا ادراک رکھتی اس کا ازالہ چاہتی ہے،اس کے لیڈران سے کارکنوں تک حکومتوں میں رہنے کے باوجود کرپشن کا کوئی الزام بھی نہیں ، تو پھر کیوں لوگ انہیں مسترد کر دیتے ہیں؟
کراچی جو کبھی جماعت کا گڑھ تھا ایم کیو ایم نے چھین لیا،لاہور کی ایک دو سیٹیں تھیں وہ بھی نہ رہیں تمام کالج اور یونیورسٹیز میں جمیعت کا راج تھا ،آج کیا صورت حال ہے،سوائے کے پی کے کی چند سیٹوں کے جماعت کہاں ہے، نوبت یہاں تک آ گئی کہ عمران جس کے پنجاب یونیورسٹی میں داخلے پر جمیعت نے ادھم مچا دیا تھا کی بغل بچہ بن کر اپنا وجود برقرار رکھنے کی کوشش کی جا رہی ہے، کیا ایسی غلطی ہی تو دہرائی نہیں جا رہی جیسی قاضی صاحب کے دور میں کی گئی تھی کہ جماعت کے اپنے ممبران تک نے جماعت کو ووٹ نہیں دئے تھے ۔ غور کرنے کی ضرورت نہیں کہ نیو ایئر نائٹ ہوٹلوں اور کلبوں میں جانے والے افراد کو روکنے اور ناچ گانے جشن منانے والوں سے پھڈا کرنے والے اسلامی اذھان سر عام دھرنے کے نام پر نوجوان لڑکیوں اور لڑکوں کی دھماچوکڑی ہضم کر لیں گے ۔

اب سب سوالوں کا جواب صرف ایک بات میں ہے کہ اگر آج تحریک انصاف یہ مطالبہ کر دے کہ اس ملک میں جب تک اسلامی نظام نافذ نہیں ہوتا وہ اسلام آباد میں دھرنا نہیں چھوڑیں گے ،اور میں اور آپ سب دیکھتے ہیں کہ وہاں کتنے لوگ رہ جائیں گے ،اس کا مطلب لوگوں کو اسلامی نظام کی بات پر یہ احساس ہی نہیں ہوتا کہ ہماری مشکلات کا حل صرف اس نظام میں ہے
دوسری بات ناکامی کی ،آپ سوچیں جن ملکوں میں اسلامی جماعتیں کامیاب ہوئیں ،وہاں اسلام کس صورت میں موجود تھا ،مصر ،ترکی ،تیونس ،الجزیر وغیرہ میں مسلمانوں کو وہ آزادیاں حاصل نہیں تھیں جو پاکستان میں ہیں ،اس لئے جب اسلامی نظام کی بات کی جاتی ہے تو لوگ کہتے ہیں کون سا نظام ؟؟ نماز تو ہم پڑھتے ہیں ،حج کرتے ہیں ،روزہ رکھتے ہیں ،جشن ولادت ہم مناتے ہیں ،صحابہ کی سیرت کی باتیں ہم کرتے ہیں ،جلوس ہم نکلتے ہیں ،کہاں اسلام نافذ نہیں ،یہ ہمارے پاکستان مسلمانوں کی سوچ اور اپروچ کا لیول ہے
پھر رہی سہی کسر فرقہ پرستی کے بھوت نے نکال دی ہے ، ایسے میں آپ بتا ئیں جہاں اسلامی جماعتیں سیاست میں حصہ لینے کو بھی حرام سمجھیں ،کون جماعت اسلامی کو ووٹ دیگا ؟؟؟
جماعت اسلامی نے چند دفعہ اتحاد بھی بنائے ،کوئی نتیجہ نہیں نکلا ، بس الله کا حکم ہے اپنس میں اتحاد ،جس کا نتیجہ ایک دفعہ آپ نے ایم ایم اے کی شکل میں دیکھا ،دوسری جماعتیں تو اس تصور سے ہی نہ آشنا ہیں کہ آج کے دور میں اسلام بھی ایک نظام کے طور پر نافذ ہو سکتا ہے
پاکستان کا سارا نظام سود پر ہے ،پھر الله کی رحمت مسلمانوں پر کیسے نازل ہو ؟؟؟
آج پاکستان میں کوئی دعوی کر دے کہ میں سود نہیں کھاتا اور میرا اکاؤنٹ سود سے پاک ہے ،مشکل سے چند لوگ اس کا دعوی کریں گے
الله بھی قرآن میں کہتا ہے
میں نے آج تک اس قوم کی حالت نہیں بدلی ،جو خود بدلنے کے لئے تیار نہ ہو ،اس لئے جماعت اسلامی تو اگاہ کرتی رہے گی لوگ ووٹ دیں یا نہ دیں اس سے کوئی فرق نہیں پڑتا،بس کوشش کا نام جدوجہد ہے نتیجہ الله کے ہاتھ میں




​