Burkas not welcome in France: Sarkozy

baqa

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
[attachment=0:211gs1y8]burka260x148.jpg[/attachment:211gs1y8]Mon Jun 22, 12:40 PM
VERSAILLES, France (AFP) - President Nicolas Sarkozy said on Monday that the burka was not welcome in secular France, condemning the head-to-toe cover as a symbol of subjugation rather than the Muslim faith.

"We cannot accept to have in our country women who are prisoners behind netting, cut off from all social life, deprived of identity," he said. "That is not the idea that the French republic has of women's dignity."

"The burka is not a sign of religion, it is a sign of subservience," he told lawmakers in a major policy speech. "It will not be welcome on the territory of the French republic."

The speech came just two weeks after Sarkozy and US President Barack Obama diverged on whether states should legislate on religious clothing, an issue which has sparked controversy in Europe.

France, home to an estimated five million Muslims, passed a law in 2004 banning headscarves or any other "conspicuous" religious symbol in state schools in a hotly contested bid to defend secularism.

Last year a Moroccan woman was refused French citizenship after social services said she wore a burka and was living in "submission" to her husband.

Sarkozy told a special session of parliament he was in favour of holding an inquiry sought by some French lawmakers into whether Muslim women who cover themselves fully in public undermine French secularism and women's rights.

But the president added "we must not fight the wrong battle, in the republic the Muslim religion must be respected as much as other religions."

The inquiry proposal has won support from politicians on the left and right, but France's official Muslim council accused lawmakers of wasting time on a fringe phenomenon.

"To raise the subject like this, via a parliamentary committee, is a way of stigmatising Islam and the Muslims of France," Mohammed Moussaoui, head of the French Council for the Muslim Religion (CFCM), said last week.

There are no official figures but several thousand women are thought to wear the burka in France.

Obama this month defended the choice of some Muslim women to wear the Islamic headscarf.

It is "important for Western countries to avoid impeding Muslim citizens from practising religion as they see fit for instance, by dictating what clothes a Muslim woman should wear," he said.

But Sarkozy told him when the two leaders met in France that his country took a different view.

"Civil servants must not wear any outward sign of their religion, whether they are Catholics, Jewish, Orthodox, Protestants or Muslims," he said, adding that a woman could wear a headscarf provided it was her own decision.

Communist MP Andre Gerin is spearheading the drive for a parliamentary panel that would look at ways to restrict the burka, which he describes as a "prison" and "degrading" for women.

Immigration Minister Eric Besson has warned against reigniting a row on the issue of Islamic dress, saying "France has managed to strike a balance, and it would be dangerous to call that into question."
 

aBis

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
one of my best mate is from france and he spits on the name of sarkozy.. as per him the minorities r deprived of their rights in france and ghettos have have been divided into colonies of ethnic diversities.
I am sure they will go nuts if any islamic country passes the law that every myslim or non-muslim women has to wear a burkha, but we don't have a single islamic state which follows sharia law.
 

contra

Senator (1k+ posts)
1. I agree with President Sarkozy. He is one of a few brave politicians who is not afraid of saying the truth. He is a bold politician and on the side of truth.

2. In Saudi Arabia, even non Saudi women have to wear burqha. In Saudi Arabia there are no Christian Churches, no Hindu temples, no Sikh Gurudawaras and no Buddhist Monasteries.
 

sagaciouscorpion

MPA (400+ posts)
contra said:
1. I agree with President Sarkozy. He is one of a few brave politicians who is not afraid of saying the truth. He is a bold politician and on the side of truth.

2. In Saudi Arabia, even non Saudi women have to wear burqha. In Saudi Arabia there are no Christian Churches, no Hindu temples, no Sikh Gurudawaras and no Buddhist Monasteries.[/quote

(If I chose to cover myself) is nt he stripping me off my basic human right??? what type of democrisy is it where i have the permission to walk nude and dont have the permission to walk covered???


Secondly... Saudi Arabia is not a country following Islamic Law... It is a muslim country... just like others... so example doesnt fit here...
 

contra

Senator (1k+ posts)
sagaciouscorpion,
(If I chose to cover myself) is nt he stripping me off my basic human right??? what type of democrisy is it where i have the permission to walk nude and dont have the permission to walk covered???

1. Burqa is a means of keeping women chained, uncivilised and dependent on their male relatives. Burqa is against human rights. So President Sarkozy is doing a favour on Muslim women by banning it in France.

2. I agree with Sarkozy 100%. There has to be Complete Separation of Religion and State. Religion needs to be removed from public life.

Secondly... Saudi Arabia is not a country following Islamic Law... It is a muslim country... just like others... so example doesnt fit here...

:shock: :shock: :shock: What are you saying??? Saudi Arabia is not following Islamic Law???
Please elaborate further on this point, i want to know more about this.
 

sagaciouscorpion

MPA (400+ posts)
@contra

I still dare to disagree with your concept about Burqa... There are regions where Burqa might be a sign of male oppression but in the west you can not force a woman to wear a veil... it is voluntary... I am allowed to defer medical treatment when I am dying knowing that it might save me(consent... I hope you know its concept) and it is my basic right to protect the doctor from saving my life... BUT I can not cover myself... it is agaisnt the basic concept of human rights... could you please explain???

Now about Saudi Arabia... Start from the top... In Islamic concept of Govt... The ruler is a dictator selected by a council of people learned in religion and worldly matters( religeous/righteous technocrats if you like the term)....and he is absolutely anwerable to a common man and can be asked by any court to come and stand trial... on the contrary... Saudi Arabia is a monarcy... Islam is a complete system encompassing economics, relationships, behaviour, criminal proceedings and a lot more... Only chopping off hands and heads is not Islam...

About your comment on the religion and state...you are free to think whatever you like.. but I long for a theocratic state.. where faoundations will be based on true Islamic laws in words and practice... and I would go and settle down there whatever it takes...
 

taul

Siasat.pk - Blogger
@ contra

-The exact and precise reason for having a country like Pakistan where we all Pakistanis can live as Muslims,i'm very much for an Ideological state founded in the name of religion and we all are so thankful for that.


-Separation of state and religion serves good purpose for "Athiests" like you,have your say and opt to reside in france.

-Does vatican city ring some bells?try finding mosques there :x

-In West Freedom of speech precisely means even though you might not agree with other person's opinions and thinking but still Defend his/her way of thinking , dressing :lol:

-So by defintion French President crossed the line and went overboard with the very same Freedom of expresion that west stands out for :oops:

-No one dare such an amateur act in USA or be booed for good :ugeek:
 

foqia khan

MPA (400+ posts)
contra said:
1. Burqa is a means of keeping women chained, uncivilised and dependent on their male relatives. Burqa is against human rights. So President Sarkozy is doing a favour on Muslim women by banning it in France.

2. I agree with Sarkozy 100%. There has to be Complete Separation of Religion and State. Religion needs to be removed from public life.

Secondly... Saudi Arabia is not a country following Islamic Law... It is a muslim country... just like others... so example doesnt fit here...

:shock: :shock: :shock: What are you saying??? Saudi Arabia is not following Islamic Law???
Please elaborate further on this point, i want to know more about this.


first ,labaas (dress) utar daney sa kohi civilised nahein ho jata....aur na hein labaas pahan laney sa kohi uncivilised ho jata ha ...... ya insann ki soch ha jo os ko civilised ya uncivilised banatee ha .

Aik stop per aik kum labaas khatoon(lady) ko kara kerain ....aur aik labaas woli khatoon ko.....khud maloom ho jaay ga k kis khatoon ko male ya relative key zayada zerroorat ha.

secondly, this is a tragdy of muslims that mostly non muslims think that the system n govt of suadi arabia is according to islam where else in islam Badshahat is not allowed if the govt of suadia doesn't allow any other religion people there ,its not islamic way.there r so many thing which r totally opposite to islam there ....but what ever the ruling group like from islam they present n whatever they don't like ....they don't follow.

n b-coz all the muslims have religious affection with suadia arabia n they face towards mecca for symbol of unity while praying ....thats why most of the non muslim world think that suadi arab is the practical example of islam......but neither the suadi arab nor we muslims r practically following islam n this is what we believe the reason of our downfall....
Islam is complete peaceful n justice system in every walk of life....n Quran is our source of knowlege in every field of life....u name it n u have it in Quran...People who did big discovers or introduce any useful theories in field of science , math or in any other feild were those ...who were close to Islam.so Islamic theories r not baseless ....there is always some big benefit for all the humanity behind its every theory. Islam gives dress codes for both men n women.... n as woman is a delicate creation of Allah so for her own safety n modesty n for satety of family system...she has to cover herself in islam.
 

baqa

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
I truly respect for all the opinions and replies from the people who added their valuable thoughts to my post.
I noticed some Indian/Hindus added their thoughts too - thanks to them. 1st I'd like to ask them to notice the veil in their religion and learn women's psychology about hiding themselves. (A picture is a 1000 words, so here are a couple)
http://www.photographersdirect.com/buyers/stockphoto.asp?imageid=1458697

and

[attachment=1:1iqylg4p]HinduDevotee.jpg[/attachment:1iqylg4p]
A Hindu devotee offers prayers. (AP Photo/Rajesh Kumar Singh)

For the other people like Sarkozy... I have another '1000 words'. They need to look around and find out the veil in every religion --- even in Christians.
 

baqa

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
I think I made myself clear. I guess it's convincing that Burka is a Muslim women's choice. It's a basic right for every woman. If it bothers other religion then tomorrow it'll start bothering me the dresses of nuns. One can demand the nuns to walk in bikinis in the Church. The other can ask Sikhs to ban their turbans.
If anyone is still confuse, I'd like to proceed this discussion but in the productive direction.
Thanks
 

taul

Siasat.pk - Blogger
@ baqa

we all get the same idea once we see an indian flag that the person might be hindu since they're majority in there but i truly believe this contra is an Athiest since it's kinda trendy and in fad these days to be one along with being gays..so worry not about him/her,cheers..
 

contra

Senator (1k+ posts)
sagaciouscorpion bhai,

1. Thankyou for your reply. The system you have suggested i think exists in Iran.

2. Oppression disguised in the form of human right doesn't make it right or acceptable. There are many documented cases (in the west) where a family member has killed girls because they refused to wear the veil. Also, in France, gangs of Middle Eastern thugs have been known to throw acid on girls in the ghettos.
How many girls will dare speak in the open or raise their voice that they are being forced to wear the veil???
For the protection and progress of muslim women it is required that the veil be banned.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/dec/13can.htm
This is only one of the many incidents....
 

contra

Senator (1k+ posts)
taul bhai,

1. Vatican is similar to say, Mecca. However, there are many Mosques in the city of Rome and also all across Italy.

2. If there is no Church in Mecca, it is understandable, but there are no Churches or Hindu temples in the whole Saudi Arabia...

3. Freedom of speech doesn't mean that you keep quiet and allow oppression of women to continue. You will be accepted for your beliefs, but human life and dignity takes precedence over religion.
 

contra

Senator (1k+ posts)
foqia bhai,

Re:Aik stop per aik kum labaas khatoon(lady) ko kara kerain ....aur aik labaas woli khatoon ko.....khud maloom ho jaay ga k kis khatoon ko male ya relative key zayada zerrarat ha.

This is a "diseased" way of looking at things. Punish the men who misbehave, suppressing women is wrong.
 

contra

Senator (1k+ posts)
baqa bhai,
You are comparing nuns and other women going to holy places with muslim women wearing veil????
Going to buy groceries wearing a veil.....
 

mirchi

Councller (250+ posts)
contra said:
1. I agree with President Sarkozy. He is one of a few brave politicians who is not afraid of saying the truth. He is a bold politician and on the side of truth.

2. In Saudi Arabia, even non Saudi women have to wear burqha. In Saudi Arabia there are no Christian Churches, no Hindu temples, no Sikh Gurudawaras and no Buddhist Monasteries.

Mr. contra please don't interfere in our religious matter please.
Islam teaches us that there should be modest dress for a women, that she should cover her head. What is this civilization when a woman can be nude but cannot wear Burqa or hijab.

Saudi Arabia is a Muslim country with Islamic law. There are 100% Muslims. Ideally no non Muslim is allowed in the holy land. This is decreed by Allah and the prophet(SAW). No more room for any discussion please.
 

sagaciouscorpion

MPA (400+ posts)
@contra

you are welcome for a healthy discussion...please ignore those who are on an abusing rampage...

on Iran...yes up to some extent... the system of selecting the rulers of the country some what matches the Islamic Ideology... but the council is just clergy... (If I am right).. it is not the technocrat clergy... its just the clergy... (I dont know much about it)

Well...
Do you know the children can call the social services if their parents mistreat them in the western countries? even if the teacher suspects that the child is being neglected by the parent they report... so if burqa is really being imposed and the girl doesnt want to put it on she can easily say good bye to the family... suppose in a minority of cases it is being imposed... to protect them you and Sarkozi are suggesting to impose a ban on the rights of those who do it on will... even Islam keeps it optional to cover the face (There is a difference of opinion about that..)... so killing a fly with a tank... is it...

Something we all know about Sarkozi is... his wife is a polyandrous women... he would definitely like other women to be like her... so that she doesnt look bad.. I dont know if youv heard the story about the fox that lost its tail... and tried to convince other foxes that loosing tail is very beneficial...

So Sarkozi shouldnt be your ideal... if you are from India and believe in something called tradition.. which is nurtured by the society and culture...the west is a Godless society... and believe me ... its not that beautiful as it looks... I v seen it from very close...
 

taul

Siasat.pk - Blogger
@ contra


-You are completely and enitrely confused with dressing as modest and religiously dressing up.what can you do when one's eyes literally want is to see nuditiy and then concieving all the ill-thoughts and all the evils that emerge from it,you and your friends are far from comprehending that fact.

-Again Oppression is just another defence mechanism used by people like you who infact would want to feel good by casting lusty looks and satisfying yourself and highlighting it under human rights and progression(you gotta be kiddi'n me), it's a reaction of your agony not being able to fulfill your desires.

-If you ever had a chance to visit some arab countries or even USA and see a fully veiled women in a professional life and doing extremely good you'd still be in denial and moan of the same il-logical stance,see personally i feel you are in denial in almost every other aspect right from independence,then religion and so forth so what can i say if i mentioned help you'd be offended my policy again i re-iterate Live and Let Live ofcourse opposite of yours.


-There's no complusion in any thing let alone religion so respect a women's choice to wear what ever she wishes be it burka,veil or hijab plain and simple,instead try curbing your ill-intentions and ill-thoughts.


-Degrading and Disrespecting is when a women's body is shown as is case with rape or an assault,when a woman is attacked or assaulted and her dress is torn a bit she feels degraded and humiliated not the other way around just to enlighten you a bit,a covered up women feels more secure than the one who's half dressed and half naked for people like you who would give some looks to that attention-seeking lady who feels she might not get same attention while even dressed modestly.Now a days Immoral and Unethical cultures have truly injected poison into minds of people and made them think that being nude and naked is sign of Progression,,In Islam and as muslims we firmly believe this was the Era of Ignorance which has sprung again and people like you admire it,ahh what a pity!!!


-hmm i don't believe so there are any mosques around Vatican city,not Rome itself.


-It's quite Childish you mentioned buying groceries ,listen the moment women walk out the door to any place requires covering up when it's known she'd come across strangers.so it holds true in any apect where she's seen by a stranger simple.

-Hijab and covering up has been Fundamental part of all religions(people of book)even hinduism etc etc..but yet you fail to grasp this minor fact again as you think of yourself as a free bird who was born scientifically.

-Brush up your definitions as freedom of speech and expression stands for religious freedoms and defending what other's believe in,and being an integral part of Islam as being muslims it's mandatory for women to cover up (as in Judaism and Christianity) so you need to broaden your knowledge of Religions as to what they encompasses and then respecting it under the very banner of Freedoom of Expression.


-What could you expect from such a person who wouldn't admit on A High and Supreme Authority of God .
 

light

Citizen
I AM VERY SORRY TO SAY THAT PRESIDENT SARKOZAY`S OWN FAMILY DO`NT MIND TO MAKE ANY KIND OF PICTURE EVEN WITHOUT DRESS. AND NOBODY SAY ANY WORD ABOUT THIS AND SHE HAS RIGHT TO DO ANY THING WHAT SHE WANT TO WEAR OR NOT .WHY HE IS AGAINST BURKA .I THINK EVERY BODY HAVE RIGHT TO WEAR OR NOT ANYTHING .