White Sister Found Prophet Muhammed (S)s Name In Bible [Emotional]

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
You can try to make an interpretation if anything is unclear and there is no other source for that information. But what we cannot do is contradict the interpretations made by Muhammad himself (Hadith), his sahaba, immediate family members, scholars and historians from that from that time and region. If I can get an interpretation from an Arab scholar of 8th Century Mecca, that will be much higher weight than an interpretation made by a 20th century Malbari Mullah who does not understand Arabic and whose interpretations directly contradict with Sahih Hadith, establish tafsir from 1000 years ago and basic understanding of Arabic language. That is just nonsense and its sad that people still want to listen to this charlatan.

Dear vitamin c, here you have made a very serious mistake by saying the quran is not open to interpretations. It is upon to interpretations of individuals because individuals can never understand anything at all without their minds interpreting things for them. It is because all human beings are born not knowing a thing and by directly interacting with things people learn sense of makings proper sense of things. This is how human beings came to know things about this universe as well as God.

The problem is not with interpretation of the quran by individuals but on what sound foundation they base their interpretations of the quran. To know way of knowing things is more important than actually knowing something. This is why regardless someone interpreted the quran 1400 years ago or today makes no difference if the way used by the interpretor is sound and the conclusion of the interpretor does not contradict rules of wisdom or concrete realities.

regards and all the best.
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
You can try to make an interpretation if anything is unclear and there is no other source for that information. But what we cannot do is contradict the interpretations made by Muhammad himself (Hadith), his sahaba, immediate family members, scholars and historians from that from that time and region. If I can get an interpretation from an Arab scholar of 8th Century Mecca, that will be much higher weight than an interpretation made by a 20th century Malbari Mullah who does not understand Arabic and whose interpretations directly contradict with Sahih Hadith, establish tafsir from 1000 years ago and basic understanding of Arabic language. That is just nonsense and its sad that people still want to listen to this charlatan.

Dear vitamin c, there has to be consistency in our logical explanation of things therefore we cannot accept or reject a piece of information without any real basis.

For that reason before one claims a piece of information is true or false one must establish on what grounds? For example, what should be the criterion for judging the quran for its truth to begin with and why as well as how that criterion proves or disproves the claim for sure? What should be the criterion for judging the ahaadis for their truth?

That is why in my provided links I have explained such points in detail.

Most people are not even aware of the very basic point of criterion which is there exists a language barrier between God and human beings let alone many other points related to criterion for judging the quran.

All this because the prophetic interpretation of the quran has not reached us in its pure form on its own because soon after the prophet passed away kingdom based upon guidance of Allah which he brought about was allowed to fall apart by his later followers never to be built again since then. Moreover since then people have been adding their own interpretations to the message of the quran in actual sayings of the prophet. Hence the need for reassessing the whole thing once again from the scratch. In doing so we need a criterion which works for sure and can be shown that it does so we cannot accept anything anyone says in this regard just on its face value. This is why we cannot accept any interpretation of the quran today even if it is in the name of the prophet due to interference by ordinary people unless it proves genuine on basis of a solid criterion. Hence knowing the way to interpret the quran properly is first hurdle for all people today regardless they claim to be muslims or nonmuslims. Muslim world is in disarray because it has not worked out any such criterion after the prophet whereby it could reinterpret the quran correctly as it ought to and become united on that basis once again just like in the time of the prophet and be able to bring about the kingdom based upon guidance of Allah once again as promised by the quran.

I have explained the whole thing in my provided links. Since you seem to disagree either without going through my explanation or by going through my explanation and have put forth your own explanation and in my view it does not and cannot work, so I leave it to you to come up with a consistent criterion that works for proving or disproving a quranic interpretation. If I see that it does work I will agree but if it does not then I will explain why not and you will have to keep trying till you get it right or agree with me on my explanation. Once a clear cut criterion is in front of both of us upon which we both agree that it does work then we can argue over any other thing about the quran or hadis or deen of islam etc etc. Having a working criterion for judging things about the quran or deen of islam has to be the starting point because upon that alone depends all the rest.

As for your saying that prophetic explanation is to be accepted I have no problem with that but the point is one has to prove the sayings attributed to the prophet by narrators' are actually his sayings beyond a reasonable doubt. This is why we cannot use sayings of the prophet for interpreting the quran unless there is a clear cut way to prove that that is the case. This point is fundamental and of vital importance therefore we cannot by pass or ignore it. If you have not read what I have explained already then you may have to spend your whole lifetime to try to come up with something similar which I have already explained. In the links I have given I have explained in detail many things about the quran and deen of islam about which most of the people have little or no knowledge at all regardless they claim to be muslims are nonmuslims.

Existence of God and existence of God's revelation are links of the very same chain. If we accept possibility of existence of one then we are bound to accept the possibility of the existence of the other as well and there is no way to reject possibility of existence of either or both of them. However if you have found out a way to do so please share so that everyone could benefit from your knowledge.

The Quran claims to be word of God and in order to accept its claim or to reject it we need a clear cut criterion. In order to do that the very first thing we need to do is understand its text. The question here is, is there a way for human beings to make proper sense of the text of the quran because it claims to be word of God which is not an ordinary claim because knowledge of human beings and knowledge of God are at two different levels? One is fully aware of all things and other has no idea about anything at all when one is born. So you see it is not enough to say I accept or I do not accept the quran is word of God rather things need to be worked out. However we cannot work out anything about the quran till we have a starting point so what could that starting point be? There are only and only three possible ways when we have a claim or a case to investigate or a problem to solve. That is we either assume the claim is true or it is false and or it could be either. Investigating 'it could be either possibility' is time consuming and unnecessary so we can leave it alone. So we are left with only two positions to take ie either the quran is word of God or it is not. Now the question becomes which position we should take first and why in order to investigate the quranic claim? Here we can try and understand the case via an example. Suppose someone comes to a police station and tells a policeman there, a murder as taken place somewhere, should the policeman act on his claim and information and start an investigation or should he assume he is lying and ignore his claim and sit idle? This shows unless we have a reason to start an investigation about something we never start any investigation at all. Once we have a reason to start investigation we only take things the way they are claimed till we get stuck at a point therefore we have a firm reason to believe the claim is false so we could start investigation the case the opposite way. If the claims proves to be true we never need to investigate it the opposite way because the case becomes solved. This is why we will first take the claim on its face value and start investigating it the positive way ie we will assume the quran is actually word of God and then see if the claim proves to be true. If not we can leave it alone or we can gather information to prove it false as well.

What is going on in the so called educated world is, most of these people assume the quran to be false so they start gathering any little piece of information they can to try to prove it false instead of first taking it on its face value and trying to prove it true. This serious mistake by these people puts the whole human world in a terrible situation that they are in which is very much obvious right before our very eyes ie we have turned this world into a dog eat dog world instead of a world fit for human living.

All these like points I am explaining here have been explained in my provided links already. This is why there is no point for me to repeat the whole thing here again. I leave it to your good self to read my explanations and accept them or come up with your own better explanations if you can about the quran and deen of islam regardless they are for them or against them.

regards and all the best.
 

Wadaich

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
بہت ہی گھٹیا سوچ ہے زلیل شخص تمھاری، ہر وقت اسلام مخالف فلسفہ ہی بکتے رہتے ہو، تمھارا ہر اسلامی پوسٹ پر نیگیٹو کمنٹ کرنا ضروری ہے؟

U busted the mole:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
 

leo_pk

Senator (1k+ posts)
Zakir Naik is a liar and his teachings are misleading and poisoning the youth. People should not be following such charlatans in this age of information technology when you can easily do a google search and see how dishonest he is.
Idiots like u dissuade others from serving the religion. After a lifetime of serving his religion when he could have lived a life of peace and luxury as a doctor, he has to put up canadian dk heads like you who have done jack all for his religion and relies of google for his islam - Pick up the Quran and hadith books instead
 

SachGoee

Senator (1k+ posts)
You can try to make an interpretation if anything is unclear and there is no other source for that information. But what we cannot do is contradict the interpretations made by Muhammad himself (Hadith), his sahaba, immediate family members, scholars and historians from that from that time and region. If I can get an interpretation from an Arab scholar of 8th Century Mecca, that will be much higher weight than an interpretation made by a 20th century Malbari Mullah who does not understand Arabic and whose interpretations directly contradict with Sahih Hadith, establish tafsir from 1000 years ago and basic understanding of Arabic language. That is just nonsense and its sad that people still want to listen to this charlatan.


What do 8th century Tafseer say about Evolution ?

Holy Quran is not a book of Science if you want it to be a book of sign. It is not.

Zakir Naik is wrong on many fronts but one cannot say that He is a Liar. He defends his belief. I agree he lost infront of that medical student.

If you don't mind are you Ex-Muslim ? If Yes what caused you to leave Islam ?
 
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Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
The reason why I know he is lying is that I have read the Quran with translation and reference with hadith and exegesis. Same does not go for Naik's followers, that is why they fall for liars and charlatans like this. Open your eyes and stop believing in frauds blindly. Study the evidence I have given and argue with me on basis of the evidence not basis of your emotions.

Idiots like u dissuade others from serving the religion. After a lifetime of serving his religion when he could have lived a life of peace and luxury as a doctor, he has to put up canadian dk heads like you who have done jack all for his religion and relies of google for his islam - Pick up the Quran and hadith books instead
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I first thought that Naik is not a liar, he is just mis-informed. Then I see him do this all the time, passing incorrect information to his followers. He has an ability to memorize but he does not have the ability to think critically and evaluate what he is saying. Maybe he is not a liar and just delusional. But I think he is both based on my research on Naik. Thats not my issue, I do not want him to misguide Pakistani youth from real science. The book that he has based his career on, written by a French Surgeon of the Sauds in 1970 is a huge fraud and based on that book Naik and his followers are making scientific claims which contradict with established facts of science.

The idea of Evolution is not something that is new, it has been around for thousands of years and debated by greek philosophers. It is not mentioned in the Quran, but if the story of Adam as mentioned in Quran, Bible and Old-Testament is literal then all these books are contradicting with science. The Catholics dodge this bullet now by saying that the story is not literal and just a metaphor and Evolution is true. Muslims are a bit slower than Europeans, they will catch up later on. There is a verse in the Quran which says that life came from water. Do not be surprised if the Muslim community later on update their view that evolution is true and it is mentioned 1500 years ago. This is how to keep changing their beliefs and tafsirs as better scientific knowledge is known.


Since childhood, I wanted to do my research and find out what is really true. There were many things that just did not make any sense and it was quite obvious that its a lie. When you read a book you can tell about the character of the author. When I read Bible, Old Testament, Quran, the first thing that came into my mind was that they are all written by completely different personality. They also displayed arrogance, ignorance, jealous etc. So my question was, is god really ignorant and jealous or were the Arabs who wrote these books ignorant and jealous. Of-course to get to this point you need to be open minded because in religious doctrines we are taught not to question and just believe with eyes closed.
Other factual reasons while reading the old books. In the Quran there was a preference for superstition rather than scientific knowledge, even if it was already known. The one that had the most impact on me was Surah Kahf. For 400 years since the death of Muhammad, Muslims believed the earth was flat. All the Tafsirs from that time say so. They scientists in Baghdad discovered the scale of the galaxy, even then the Mullah's threatened to kill the scientists if they say the Earth is not flat it will be blasphemy. Then when it became obvious the Quran is incorrect, they changed their belief and Tafsir. Now Zakir Naik even changed the meaning of an Arabic word to say it means an ostrich egg. He is the only person in the world claiming that. A friend from Iraq explained this verse better than me and even explains the background story with references from other sources. Let me know what you think.



What do 8th century Tafseer say about Evolution ?

Holy Quran is not a book of Science if you want it to be a book of sign. It is not.

Zakir Naik is wrong on many fronts but one cannot say that He is a Liar. He defends his belief. I agree he lost infront of that medical student.

If you don't mind are you Ex-Muslim ? If Yes what caused you to leave Islam ?
 

SachGoee

Senator (1k+ posts)
I first thought that Naik is not a liar, he is just mis-informed. Then I see him do this all the time, passing incorrect information to his followers. He has an ability to memorize but he does not have the ability to think critically and evaluate what he is saying. Maybe he is not a liar and just delusional. But I think he is both based on my research on Naik. Thats not my issue, I do not want him to misguide Pakistani youth from real science. The book that he has based his career on, written by a French Surgeon of the Sauds in 1970 is a huge fraud and based on that book Naik and his followers are making scientific claims which contradict with established facts of science.

The idea of Evolution is not something that is new, it has been around for thousands of years and debated by greek philosophers. It is not mentioned in the Quran, but if the story of Adam as mentioned in Quran, Bible and Old-Testament is literal then all these books are contradicting with science. The Catholics dodge this bullet now by saying that the story is not literal and just a metaphor and Evolution is true. Muslims are a bit slower than Europeans, they will catch up later on. There is a verse in the Quran which says that life came from water. Do not be surprised if the Muslim community later on update their view that evolution is true and it is mentioned 1500 years ago. This is how to keep changing their beliefs and tafsirs as better scientific knowledge is known.


Since childhood, I wanted to do my research and find out what is really true. There were many things that just did not make any sense and it was quite obvious that its a lie. When you read a book you can tell about the character of the author. When I read Bible, Old Testament, Quran, the first thing that came into my mind was that they are all written by completely different personality. They also displayed arrogance, ignorance, jealous etc. So my question was, is god really ignorant and jealous or were the Arabs who wrote these books ignorant and jealous. Of-course to get to this point you need to be open minded because in religious doctrines we are taught not to question and just believe with eyes closed.
Other factual reasons while reading the old books. In the Quran there was a preference for superstition rather than scientific knowledge, even if it was already known. The one that had the most impact on me was Surah Kahf. For 400 years since the death of Muhammad, Muslims believed the earth was flat. All the Tafsirs from that time say so. They scientists in Baghdad discovered the scale of the galaxy, even then the Mullah's threatened to kill the scientists if they say the Earth is not flat it will be blasphemy. Then when it became obvious the Quran is incorrect, they changed their belief and Tafsir. Now Zakir Naik even changed the meaning of an Arabic word to say it means an ostrich egg. He is the only person in the world claiming that. A friend from Iraq explained this verse better than me and even explains the background story with references from other sources. Let me know what you think.




I would hesitate to call Dr.Zakir Zaik a liar or delusional person but I do agree that he has strong memory. I agree with you on part of critical thinking aswell. I have accepted that He has lost many debates. He is human.


Every Homo Sapien has a brain and there is constant neuronal firings in the brain. My stance is that every human being will make an opinion as per his her brain. So I respect people's stance and opinions. Everyone is free to chose his path. I am again Barbarism and Fanatic approach. Yes Anti Islam things do hurt. Holy figures being abused and ridiculed does give immemse pain but my faith has taught me patience and forgiveness.


I have watched the Video. It adresses so many verses of Quran.


1. My first question is that if you wish a Prophet to show Miracles than as per your wish what those Miracles should be ? Should a Prophet do magical tricks like Magicians ? What really do you expect from a Prophet in terms of Miracles ?

My expectations from a striker in football match is that He should score a Goal.

So what are your expectations wrt miracles ?


2. Please give reference of the verse which says Earth is flat.


3. If some Ulema have aligned their Tafaseer's in line with Science than I detest them. I will call it intellectual dishonesty. But I have another question.


Do you want Quran (a Holy Book) as per my claim/belief to be a Nature or Science Journal ? This is the rational/value of a divine revelation ? (if there is any)



4. These videos along with a lot of stuff you read ensured you than there is No God ? Or there was some other reason aswell ?
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
The understanding is that if a person is making a claim then there has to be a support or evidence for that claim. If Muhammad was claiming that he was a prophet to the Meccans. The Meccans asked him for proof. Moses turned a stick into a serpant, Jesus walked on water, how can Muhammed support his claim. Then the Meccans went to the Jews and asked them for their opinion. The Jews told them to ask Muhammad 3 questions to prove himself and his claim. 1. question about the cave sleepers, 2. about the spirit 3. About the person who conquered the world from the east to the west. Muhammad's answers were unsatisfactory, the first one he added no new knowledge to the sleeper legend that was already known. He dodged the second question completely. The third question is answered in the second video where the Quran says the world is flat.

Also if anything from what I say offends you then my apologies, its not my intention, i am just answering questions. Im not claiming that there is a god or not, I am saying all the organized religious are obvious forgeries. Some are more obvious than others such as Mormonism, but upon closer inspection they do not have any evidence to support the claims they make. The premise is if a designer made the universe(science), then he should know more about the universe than people did 1400 years ago. But it seems the person who wrote these books did not even know things about the universe that other people already know (Greeks for example).

Watch the second part and let me know because that was the important one. It shows how Mullahs today misrepresent information from Islamic sources and make their own interpretations out of thin air as our scientific understanding improves.

I would hesitate to call Dr.Zakir Zaik a liar or delusional person but I do agree that he has strong memory. I agree with you on part of critical thinking aswell. I have accepted that He has lost many debates. He is human.


Every Homo Sapien has a brain and there is constant neuronal firings in the brain. My stance is that every human being will make an opinion as per his her brain. So I respect people's stance and opinions. Everyone is free to chose his path. I am again Barbarism and Fanatic approach. Yes Anti Islam things do hurt. Holy figures being abused and ridiculed does give immemse pain but my faith has taught me patience and forgiveness.


I have watched the Video. It adresses so many verses of Quran.


1. My first question is that if you wish a Prophet to show Miracles than as per your wish what those Miracles should be ? Should a Prophet do magical tricks like Magicians ? What really do you expect from a Prophet in terms of Miracles ?

My expectations from a striker in football match is that He should score a Goal.

So what are your expectations wrt miracles ?


2. Please give reference of the verse which says Earth is flat.


3. If some Ulema have aligned their Tafaseer's in line with Science than I detest them. I will call it intellectual dishonesty. But I have another question.


Do you want Quran (a Holy Book) as per my claim/belief to be a Nature or Science Journal ? This is the rational/value of a divine revelation ? (if there is any)



4. These videos along with a lot of stuff you read ensured you than there is No God ? Or there was some other reason aswell ?
 

SachGoee

Senator (1k+ posts)
The understanding is that if a person is making a claim then there has to be a support or evidence for that claim. If Muhammad was claiming that he was a prophet to the Meccans. The Meccans asked him for proof. Moses turned a stick into a serpant, Jesus walked on water, how can Muhammed support his claim. Then the Meccans went to the Jews and asked them for their opinion. The Jews told them to ask Muhammad 3 questions to prove himself and his claim. 1. question about the cave sleepers, 2. about the spirit 3. About the person who conquered the world from the east to the west. Muhammad's answers were unsatisfactory, the first one he added no new knowledge to the sleeper legend that was already known. He dodged the second question completely. The third question is answered in the second video where the Quran says the world is flat.

Also if anything from what I say offends you then my apologies, its not my intention, i am just answering questions. Im not claiming that there is a god or not, I am saying all the organized religious are obvious forgeries. Some are more obvious than others such as Mormonism, but upon closer inspection they do not have any evidence to support the claims they make. The premise is if a designer made the universe(science), then he should know more about the universe than people did 1400 years ago. But it seems the person who wrote these books did not even know things about the universe that other people already know (Greeks for example).

Watch the second part and let me know because that was the important one. It shows how Mullahs today misrepresent information from Islamic sources and make their own interpretations out of thin air as our scientific understanding improves.


Prophet Moses As miracle was Physical and not Metaphorical ? Is this what you are telling me ?

You are putting me in doubt. Enlighten me. Bring in Law of Physics and Laws of Nature aswell. Any homo sapien can turn a stick into serpant ? Are you kidding me ? Or I lack knowledge/information.
 

SachGoee

Senator (1k+ posts)

@Vitamin_C

Prophet Jesus AS walked on water ? Are you kidding me ?

This is the Critical/Rational thinking ? You are telling a medical scientist that Human being can walk on water ? What ???????????????
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Im not giving you my personal opinion, just quoting Abrahamic religions. As narrated in the Quran, the Pharaoh asked Moses to do a miracle to prove he is a prophet in his court, Moses threw his stick and it turned into a serpent. So Muhammad claiming to be prophet was asked to verify it based on his own religion's standards by the Meccans.


Prophet Moses As miracle was Physical and not Metaphorical ? Is this what you are telling me ?

You are putting me in doubt. Enlighten me. Bring in Law of Physics and Laws of Nature aswell. Any homo sapien can turn a stick into serpant ? Are you kidding me ? Or I lack knowledge/information.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
"If Muhammad was claiming that he was a prophet to the Meccans. The Meccans asked him for proof. Moses turned a stick into a serpant, Jesus walked on water, how can Muhammed support his claim. Then the Meccans went to the Jews and asked them for their opinion. The Jews told them to ask Muhammad 3 questions to prove himself and his claim."

Sorry if I was not very clear, but that is not my claim. I was just narrating the story to you from Muhammad's biography which relates to Verse of the Cave.



@Vitamin_C

Prophet Jesus AS walked on water ? Are you kidding me ?

This is the Critical/Rational thinking ? You are telling a medical scientist that Human being can walk on water ? What ???????????????
 

SachGoee

Senator (1k+ posts)
Im not giving you my personal opinion, just quoting Abrahamic religions. As narrated in the Quran, the Pharaoh asked Moses to do a miracle to prove he is a prophet in his court, Moses threw his stick and it turned into a serpent. So Muhammad claiming to be prophet was asked to verify it based on his own religion's standards by the Meccans.

"If Muhammad was claiming that he was a prophet to the Meccans. The Meccans asked him for proof. Moses turned a stick into a serpant, Jesus walked on water, how can Muhammed support his claim. Then the Meccans went to the Jews and asked them for their opinion. The Jews told them to ask Muhammad 3 questions to prove himself and his claim."

Sorry if I was not very clear, but that is not my claim. I was just narrating the story to you from Muhammad's biography which relates to Verse of the Cave.


First you will have to prove that the miracle of Moses was a physical miracle and and such a thing is possible as per laws of Physics and all Sciences. Than I will move on to Mohammad Pbuh.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Again, this is not my personal claim. That claim is being made by the Quran not me. I do not have to prove it because I am not a Muslim. If you subscribe to that religion, then the burden of proof is on you. Not only for the serpent miracle, but for Muhammad flying to heaven on a winged horse or King Soloman talking to Ghosts. If you are a Muslim, and you believe in the Quran, then I assume you believe in all those stories that defy physics.

Do not treat religion as it is a default position because it is not. The default position is disbelief. If I told you that I am superman, your default position will be disbelief. You will say prove it. The same applies to Muhammad, you are treating his belief system as the default position that it is the truth, then I need evidence to not believe it. It should be the other way round, you start at a neutral position then look for evidence to believe in him. Its like starting with the conclusion then looking for evidence to believe or not believe it.
You start in a neutral position, then follow the evidence to reach a conclusion.

First you will have to prove that the miracle of Moses was a physical miracle and and such a thing is possible as per laws of Physics and all Sciences. Than I will move on to Mohammad Pbuh.
 

SachGoee

Senator (1k+ posts)
Again, this is not my personal claim. That claim is being made by the Quran not me. I do not have to prove it because I am not a Muslim. If you subscribe to that religion, then the burden of proof is on you. Not only for the serpent miracle, but for Muhammad flying to heaven on a winged horse or King Soloman talking to Ghosts. If you are a Muslim, and you believe in the Quran, then I assume you believe in all those stories that defy physics.

Do not treat religion as it is a default position because it is not. The default position is disbelief. If I told you that I am superman, your default position will be disbelief. You will say prove it. The same applies to Muhammad, you are treating his belief system as the default position that it is the truth, then I need evidence to not believe it. It should be the other way round, you start at a neutral position then look for evidence to believe in him. Its like starting with the conclusion then looking for evidence to believe or not believe it.
You start in a neutral position, then follow the evidence to reach a conclusion.


My friend I don't wear a black band on my eyes which I take off for selective human beings.


If I say that stick did not turn into serpant, homo sapien cannot walk on water (which I believe) than I won't say or claim that a Homo sapien can fly to heaven.


My friend these laws of physics and laws of nature are no jokes. These laws do not break for any indivisual.


Use Critical thinking and rationality when you raise questions aswell.


Quran describes an event. It never says that whatever it says is literal. You need to debate these miracles with those who say that these events were physical and for them Allah or some super power changed or altered laws of physics laws of nature for the time being.


You say you have read quran. Have you come across the verse where when Non believers asked that if you are true Prophet than Go to heaven infront of our eyes and bring a copy of Quran from Heaven than we will believe you.


So where does the critical thinking and rationality hide now ? Can a homo sapien fly to heaven ? Where does laws of nature and human capabilities go now ? Was it a rational demand ?

Did Mohammad Pbuh say that God is a physical entity who sits on heaven ?


And what was the answer of Mohammad Pbuh to non believers ? He said I am an ordinary homo sapien like you how can I fly to heaven and bring a copy of Quran from there ?


If few days latet the same Mohammad Pbuh claimed Naoozbillah that I flied to heaven than non believers aswell as his believers followers would have said. Hey ? What are you upto few days ago you said I am a human I can fly can't go and now you say You had a flight towards heaven ? All his followers would have abandoned and left him there and than saying you are a liar, fraudster, hypocrite.


You want a Prophet to be a Magician without tricks but super powers ? Somebody who could transform things physically changing their physical states ? Somebody who could destroy, hold or suspend laws of physics laws of nature ? It may be your wish your requirement but until eternity this won't happen.

This isn't for what Allah appoints his beloved people as Prophets. This isn't the job of a Prophet.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
You know that it cannot be true for those things to happen because you are educated and aware of physics and science.
But the people who wrote the books were not aware of those things. That is the point I am trying to make, because we understand these things, we know they are not true therefore we do not believe in those old religions.


We know that those books literally meant it because all the Tafsirs took those things literally, same thing we can find in the hadith that Muhammad and his close friends and family also take those things to be literal. Also when Quran is not being literal, it specifically says that its not being literal (for example the crucifixion of Jesus).

Its not that Quran was not being literal as we can easily see from reading the Exegesis and Hadith. Its the case that Quran made predictions that were all wrong, which is proof that these books were written by people who had little knowledge about the universe, rather than being authored by an all knowing God.

My friend I don't wear a black band on my eyes which I take off for selective human beings.


If I say that stick did not turn into serpant, homo sapien cannot walk on water (which I believe) than I won't say or claim that a Homo sapien can fly to heaven.


My friend these laws of physics and laws of nature are no jokes. These laws do not break for any indivisual.


Use Critical thinking and rationality when you raise questions aswell.


Quran describes an event. It never says that whatever it says is literal. You need to debate these miracles with those who say that these events were physical and for them Allah or some super power changed or altered laws of physics laws of nature for the time being.


You say you have read quran. Have you come across the verse where when Non believers asked that if you are true Prophet than Go to heaven infront of our eyes and bring a copy of Quran from Heaven than we will believe you.


So where does the critical thinking and rationality hide now ? Can a homo sapien fly to heaven ? Where does laws of nature and human capabilities go now ? Was it a rational demand ?

Did Mohammad Pbuh say that God is a physical entity who sits on heaven ?


And what was the answer of Mohammad Pbuh to non believers ? He said I am an ordinary homo sapien like you how can I fly to heaven and bring a copy of Quran from there ?


If few days latet the same Mohammad Pbuh claimed Naoozbillah that I flied to heaven than non believers aswell as his believers followers would have said. Hey ? What are you upto few days ago you said I am a human I can fly can't go and now you say You had a flight towards heaven ? All his followers would have abandoned and left him there and than saying you are a liar, fraudster, hypocrite.


You want a Prophet to be a Magician without tricks but super powers ? Somebody who could transform things physically changing their physical states ? Somebody who could destroy, hold or suspend laws of physics laws of nature ? It may be your wish your requirement but until eternity this won't happen.

This isn't for what Allah appoints his beloved people as Prophets. This isn't the job of a Prophet.
 

SachGoee

Senator (1k+ posts)
You know that it cannot be true for those things to happen because you are educated and aware of physics and science.
But the people who wrote the books were not aware of those things. That is the point I am trying to make, because we understand these things, we know they are not true therefore we do not believe in those old religions.


We know that those books literally meant it because all the Tafsirs took those things literally, same thing we can find in the hadith that Muhammad and his close friends and family also take those things to be literal. Also when Quran is not being literal, it specifically says that its not being literal (for example the crucifixion of Jesus).

Its not that Quran was not being literal as we can easily see from reading the Exegesis and Hadith. Its the case that Quran made predictions that were all wrong, which is proof that these books were written by people who had little knowledge about the universe, rather than being authored by an all knowing God.


This is not the case. Hazrat Ayesha RA has clearly mentioned wrt the door lock aswell as the bed linen remaining cosy in those winter days. Which does point out that it wasn't physical at all.


As far as Moses incidence is concerned it is True and well documented but it wasn't physical. It was a Case of Mesmerism & Hypnotism caused by Allah. But it does not contradict any Law of Science.


Similarly if in real the Moon breaks down into two pieces it would be a massive massive calamity and it would never rejoin again. No wonder if the whole Planetry system and earth vanishes.


So many other things aswell but this does not prove Quran to be false. Another miracle of the Prophets is there Prophecies. Nobody can see or touch God. No one can film God. Yet people have claimed that they have a spiritual communication with GOD and GOD has told them this this thing to take place in future. If those things happen than those are miracles aswell and they prove the claims of Prophets to be True.


There are Prophecies about the coming of Prophet Muhammad Pbuh in Hindu literature. They are wuite precise wrt things which He Pbuh did or changed compared to previous profits. Now there is Nil/Zero evidence that at that time Arabs even knew about Hinduism or Hindus literature was present in Arab for Mohammad Pbuh to Copy/Cheat (Naoozbillah) to do same things so as to prove look prophecies are fulfilled wrt me.


Than there is a Prophecy of Mohammad Pbuh wrt Solar and Lunar Eclipse which occured 1400 years after his death. Exactly as per the Prophecy. Now No Human being can say that Oh Shaitaan Evil caused the Eclipses.
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Again, this is not my personal claim. That claim is being made by the Quran not me. I do not have to prove it because I am not a Muslim. If you subscribe to that religion, then the burden of proof is on you. Not only for the serpent miracle, but for Muhammad flying to heaven on a winged horse or King Soloman talking to Ghosts. If you are a Muslim, and you believe in the Quran, then I assume you believe in all those stories that defy physics.

Do not treat religion as it is a default position because it is not. The default position is disbelief. If I told you that I am superman, your default position will be disbelief. You will say prove it. The same applies to Muhammad, you are treating his belief system as the default position that it is the truth, then I need evidence to not believe it. It should be the other way round, you start at a neutral position then look for evidence to believe in him. Its like starting with the conclusion then looking for evidence to believe or not believe it.
You start in a neutral position, then follow the evidence to reach a conclusion.


Dear vitamin c, if I may say so please kindly differentiate between God, his messages, his messengers and ordinary people and refrain from making silly claims about the quran and deen of islam and thereby making yourself look foolish. For example, when you say the quran claims this or that you are putting yourself in the firing line, how? Because by claiming the quran says this or that you are saying you know how to understand the quranic text properly in its proper context as intended by God. This then forces one to ask you, please show me the way to understand the text of the quran properly in its proper context as per your own claims? Here you will definitely get completely stuck because I know for a fact from your posts so far that you do not know the way to understand the quranic text properly in its proper context. Moreover you cannot know the way to understand the text of the quran properly in its proper context till you carry out your own research and explore things about the quran and deen of islam to the level about which I am talking here.

All I can agree with you is about your criticism of ordinary people of the past and present as to what they said about the quran or deen of islam regardless they are muslims or nonmuslims. People are born ignorant so it takes them a lot of hard work and time to come to know things a little bit according to their own time and place or environment. This is not the case with God. You are failing badly to realise this vitally important distinction. Ordinary people cannot think beyond their own time and life experiences. This is why ordinary people are incapable of understanding the message of God till they realise the way to do so. Once they come to know the way to understand the text of the quran properly in its own proper context as intended by God then they can interpret the message of God which talks about facts not baseless fictions as ignorant people will have us believe. So all I can say is, please educate your self about the quran and deen of islam before getting involved in silly exchanges.

May God bless us all with all that may ensure our well being in here as well as in hereafter.
 
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