From Pappacy to Hypocrisy - Pope Urges Realease of Asia Bibi

[molson4u]

Sometime i get shocked when i visit this site to see how people think and provide their expert opinions on issues, hadith and Quran like they are Ayatuallah of Pakistan. I have said that before that we look for the best doctor, if we are sick, a good lawyer, if stand in a legal issue but when it come to Islam...we are all scholors. We bring hadith and twist the Quranic verses to prove our point. May Allah Guide us all.

The issue in the thread is not pope or what he said but the blasphemy law in Pakistan.

Let's talk about the pope. Some of us have reminded the pope about afia bibi and so on. Pope is a religious leader without power. All he can do is to appeal for humantrian and compassionate considerations. If you remember, just few months back Ireland released a PanAm bomber back to Libya on the grounds of humanitrian and compassionate reasons. Although USA and other westren allies protested but the Irish government decided that the application by a muslim leader had compelling reasons given to grant the release, regardless that the man was charged with bombing a plane killing 177 people, mostly Americans. So if Pope ask for leanency, you should consider it but stick to the law.

Secondly, the blasphmy law itself is the issue. You remember 2 years back there were riots in punjab where a entire village of Christian was burnt by muslims claiming that someone has committed blasphmy. When the government completed the investigation, it was found that a Christian and Muslim brothers were gambling on cards and the muslim brother lost money. The fight broke between them and the muslim went to his village and told his people that the christian has committed blasphmy. The other villagers geathered and torched the christian village.

Look at this news: In June 2009, his wife was asked to fetch water while out working in the fields. But Muslim women labourers objected, saying that as a non-Muslim, she should not touch the water bowl.
A few days later the women went to a local cleric and alleged that Asia made derogatory remarks about the Prophet Mohammed

This incident speak for itself. She was told to give water to the other labourers and they objected that she was not muslim. The muslims decided to take revenge and few days later got together and filed a complaint that she has committed blasphmy... doesn't it ring alarms in your mind. So now the deal is that if you have a fight with anyone, christain, hindu, ahmedi or any other sect. All you have to do is to have 4 of your friends go with you to police station and say that they have heard so and so committing blasphmy. He will be charged and if those 4 people testify, he will be hanged... no evidence or proof required, just need few friends to lie on your behalf to take revenge...what a law.


With that been said, saying anything bad about the prophet or blasmphy is a serious offense. This should be throughly investigated and if found guilty, be punished with laws of sharia. We must also remember that people use to throw garbage on our beloved holy prophet, he didn't ordered them killed but prayed for them. Arabs use to call him a majician and a poet but he didn't ordered them killed but forgave them. Quran also says the the law is blood for blood but if you forgive, Allah will reward you for your mercy ad He is the MOST merciful.

 

[adnan_younus]

Just FYI - This pope is a terrorist, a former Nazi Soldier, has killed many many Jews in Aushwitz camp

Ek to her cheez mein conspiracy and israel le aao bussss.. im not defending him. im saying why the hell wud he talk abt afia... so ppl prasing teh letter to pop is wrong

 

[gazoomartian]

Typical ostrich syndrome.. hypocratic attitude... our legal system is inded incompetent and why shud the pope talk abut afia siddiqui :S hes a pope not a politician and he represents christian rights not muslim rights...

by that token since you are part of the country, you are incompetent as well :lol:

 

[Bret Hawk]

@ GM bhai

I would like to praise your befitting reply to the current spiritual leader of Ramon Catholic faction of Christianity in which you've raised some wonderful points that eventually compelled me to comment on this thread.

@ Hassam

I agree with you that our whole country and its so called powerful stakeholders are drenched in the filth of hypocrisy and double standards and I would also dare to state here that partial acceptance of Prophet pbuh commands and directives is also tantamount to his gross disobedience and blasphemy and majority of us Pakistanis are culprits of this grave offense. But having said that it also doesn’t mean that if some one openly express his / her derogatory remarks and acts against any revered personality of a religion, (Prophet Muhammad pbuh in Islam’s case) we shouldn't have to ignore those incendiary and inflammatory acts of those culprits just because of our inability to follow all the rulings and guidelines of Islam or to any other concerned religion of the current world.

@ Molson4u

Dear I’m slightly surprised at the way you directed your response to me (indirectly) on the issue which has been addressed in this thread. First and foremost there’s no twisting or molding of any facts and wordings of the Quranic Ayaats which I’ve presented on the subject matter of Blasphemy. Have you ever hear the key words of reasoning of the law and Qiyas (Legal analogy drawn by a Mufti on a given disputed matter)? Further to corroborate you can consult any scholar who has his affiliation with a particular school of thought, and I can assure you that you will most likely find a virtual unanimity among those scholars on the issue of the implication of blasphemy and apostasy provided if the offense of blasphemy & apostasy turned out to be on factual ground on one particular individual or group of individuals after going through the necessary investigations as per the demands and dictates by the Shariah Law and in the recent past the Usuli Twelver Imam Khumeni (Late) was on the forefront when he decreed a Fatwa of execution against the blasphemies of the accursed Salman Rushdie, would you also term that act of Khumnei as the distortion of Islamic principles and an impulsive decision of his to punish that despicable character? Would you suggest to the current ruling clergy of Iran to show some compassion to Rushdie and withdraw that emotional Fatwa of Khumeni so that it would become pliable according to the benevolent teachings (Which is a big misconception among many individuals like you) of Islam?

 

[molson4u]

Dear Bother Bret Hawk, Thanks for you comment but I see you still missed the point. I stated that if someone is charged with blasmphy, its a serious offense and it should be thoroughly investigated and punished according to Sharia Law. However, my point was that mare allegation by few people because they don't like you is not enough to hang someone or to take someones life. This is an abuse of the Law. In the matter of Salman Rushdie, his guilt was proven by his writing against our beloved Holy Prophet(PBUH). In any sharia court, he will be convicted based on his book as an evidence. The Fatwa or decreed was not issued agaist him by AyatuAllah Khumeni just because Rushdie had a fight with someone and the other party filed a claim with highest cleric that he committed blasmphy. He will be convicted based of his evidence of his writing, beyond a reasonable doubt and punished by hanging or killing.

Concerning the Quran-Holy Quran's References on Blasphemy & Apostasy

9:66 Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin.

You misquoted thsi Ayat. This Ayat is not talking about blasmphemy. Its dealing with "murtad" or convertors, you accepted Islam and then decided to leave it. Here again Allah is showing mercy by saying " If we pardon some of you, we will punish other amoung you, for that they have sin". Allah will punish those in his way, in the world or the day of judgement. Nowwhere you can draw interference that it means that Allah is asking us to kill or shoot someone. Let Allah punish him.


9:52 Say (O Muhammad) Can you expect for us (any fate) other than one of two glorious things (Martyrdom or victory)? But we can expect for you either that Allah will send his punishment from Himself, or by our hands. So wait (expectant); we too will wait with you."

Again you misquoted an ayat which is not dealing with blasmphemy. This Surah is talking about War with infediles. Allah is giving us rules of engagement in a war. Telling that the punishment of Allah will come to them or by our hands(meaning losing the war and getting killed in the war) and tell them to wait and we will wait with you. Again it doesn't say that kill someone if he is accused of Blasmphey.

5:33 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter

brother again you misused this Ayat that deal with the war to prove your point. Nowwhere it talks about blasmphey. All these Ayaat that you quoted are not relevent to the matter in hand. The issue is the law passed by uneducated politician of Pakistan on the pressure of Mulla's to punish the minorities. It's been abused very often in Pakistan. Blasmphey is a serious offense and must be investigated and punishment must be served. However, in the matter at hand, the christian lady was told to give water and muslim people made a big deal out of it and filed a concocted, fabricated complaint and lied in the court to harm someone and take away her life. That is wrong. I never said blasmphey law is wrong or people should not be punished.

Please refrain from Quoting Ayat of Quran to prove your point when you don't have enough knowledge as highlited above. I hope you repent and ask Allah's mercy for your soul as I can quote you many verses tht deal with misusing Allah's aayats for personal reasons or gains.

 

[hassam]

Dear Bother Bret Hawk, Thanks for you comment but I see you still missed the point. I stated that if someone is charged with blasmphy, its a serious offense and it should be thoroughly investigated and punished according to Sharia Law. However, my point was that mare allegation by few people because they don't like you is not enough to hang someone or to take someones life. This is an abuse of the Law. In the matter of Salman Rushdie, his guilt was proven by his writing against our beloved Holy Prophet(PBUH). In any sharia court, he will be convicted based on his book as an evidence. The Fatwa or decreed was not issued agaist him by AyatuAllah Khumeni just because Rushdie had a fight with someone and the other party filed a claim with highest cleric that he committed blasmphy. He will be convicted based of his evidence of his writing, beyond a reasonable doubt and punished by hanging or killing.

Concerning the Quran-Holy Quran's References on Blasphemy & Apostasy

9:66 “Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin”.

You misquoted thsi Ayat. This Ayat is not talking about blasmphemy. Its dealing with "murtad" or convertors, you accepted Islam and then decided to leave it. Here again Allah is showing mercy by saying " If we pardon some of you, we will punish other amoung you, for that they have sin". Allah will punish those in his way, in the world or the day of judgement. Nowwhere you can draw interference that it means that Allah is asking us to kill or shoot someone. Let Allah punish him.


9:52 “Say (O Muhammad) Can you expect for us (any fate) other than one of two glorious things (Martyrdom or victory)? But we can expect for you either that Allah will send his punishment from Himself, or by our hands. So wait (expectant); we too will wait with you."

Again you misquoted an ayat which is not dealing with blasmphemy. This Surah is talking about War with infediles. Allah is giving us rules of engagement in a war. Telling that the punishment of Allah will come to them or by our hands(meaning losing the war and getting killed in the war) and tell them to wait and we will wait with you. Again it doesn't say that kill someone if he is accused of Blasmphey.

5:33 “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter”

brother again you misused this Ayat that deal with the war to prove your point. Nowwhere it talks about blasmphey. All these Ayaat that you quoted are not relevent to the matter in hand. The issue is the law passed by uneducated politician of Pakistan on the pressure of Mulla's to punish the minorities. It's been abused very often in Pakistan. Blasmphey is a serious offense and must be investigated and punishment must be served. However, in the matter at hand, the christian lady was told to give water and muslim people made a big deal out of it and filed a concocted, fabricated complaint and lied in the court to harm someone and take away her life. That is wrong. I never said blasmphey law is wrong or people should not be punished.

Please refrain from Quoting Ayat of Quran to prove your point when you don't have enough knowledge as highlited above. I hope you repent and ask Allah's mercy for your soul as I can quote you many verses tht deal with misusing Allah's aayats for personal reasons or gains.

Brother Bret Hawk. When I saw these ayat same thing came to my mind as described above becuase I have read tafseer of quran twice and I never saw anything related to blashphemy in them. I kept quite becuase I was not sure and I am not an authority in Quran or hadeeth. I am waiting to finish the Bayan ul Quran to draw a conclusion. There is a lot of difference being openly derogatory and the way blashphemy is defined in our culture. If we take that as correct then by any means the inquisitions of Christains were correct and if every country like, USA or europe adopt the same policy than all muslims will be hanged in these countries.

 

[samy99]

Blasphemy law was introduced by Gen.Zia ul haq, under this law many many people from minorities were punished and even lots of belong to muslims were killed brutally. Zia did't realize the implications of this law because people start using it against their opponents and many innocents were killed.I would say Zia was the real culprit in this case and he got what he deserved.The religious fanatics have nothing to do,using islam to make their ends meet and pollute people's minds with their poisonous propoganda against minorities which is totally against the norm of our religion.Asia should be free and ban the blasphemy law,it is hypocritical and against the ethics of a civilized society.

 

[samy99]

Asia should be freed.

 

[kmanzar]

Dear Bother Bret Hawk, Thanks for you comment but I see you still missed the point. I stated that if someone is charged with blasmphy, its a serious offense and it should be thoroughly investigated and punished according to Sharia Law. However, my point was that mare allegation by few people because they don't like you is not enough to hang someone or to take someones life. This is an abuse of the Law. In the matter of Salman Rushdie, his guilt was proven by his writing against our beloved Holy Prophet(PBUH). In any sharia court, he will be convicted based on his book as an evidence. The Fatwa or decreed was not issued agaist him by AyatuAllah Khumeni just because Rushdie had a fight with someone and the other party filed a claim with highest cleric that he committed blasmphy. He will be convicted based of his evidence of his writing, beyond a reasonable doubt and punished by hanging or killing.

Concerning the Quran-Holy Quran's References on Blasphemy & Apostasy

9:66 “Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin”.

You misquoted thsi Ayat. This Ayat is not talking about blasmphemy. Its dealing with "murtad" or convertors, you accepted Islam and then decided to leave it. Here again Allah is showing mercy by saying " If we pardon some of you, we will punish other amoung you, for that they have sin". Allah will punish those in his way, in the world or the day of judgement. Nowwhere you can draw interference that it means that Allah is asking us to kill or shoot someone. Let Allah punish him.


9:52 “Say (O Muhammad) Can you expect for us (any fate) other than one of two glorious things (Martyrdom or victory)? But we can expect for you either that Allah will send his punishment from Himself, or by our hands. So wait (expectant); we too will wait with you."

Again you misquoted an ayat which is not dealing with blasmphemy. This Surah is talking about War with infediles. Allah is giving us rules of engagement in a war. Telling that the punishment of Allah will come to them or by our hands(meaning losing the war and getting killed in the war) and tell them to wait and we will wait with you. Again it doesn't say that kill someone if he is accused of Blasmphey.

5:33 “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter”

brother again you misused this Ayat that deal with the war to prove your point. Nowwhere it talks about blasmphey. All these Ayaat that you quoted are not relevent to the matter in hand. The issue is the law passed by uneducated politician of Pakistan on the pressure of Mulla's to punish the minorities. It's been abused very often in Pakistan. Blasmphey is a serious offense and must be investigated and punishment must be served. However, in the matter at hand, the christian lady was told to give water and muslim people made a big deal out of it and filed a concocted, fabricated complaint and lied in the court to harm someone and take away her life. That is wrong. I never said blasmphey law is wrong or people should not be punished.

Please refrain from Quoting Ayat of Quran to prove your point when you don't have enough knowledge as highlited above. I hope you repent and ask Allah's mercy for your soul as I can quote you many verses tht deal with misusing Allah's aayats for personal reasons or gains.

I agree with your opinion and you mentioned the point excellently

Although I am not against punishing a blasphemist (somebody must be punished if his word’s or deeds touches the sentiments of people and causes unrest in the society), but I am against putting wrong & out of context references (by saying it’s from in Quran or so) without knowing and proper study.

Problem is that, most of the common ‘believes’ in our society has no real link with the authentic sources, and people keep spreading out such things without investigating. This should be discouraged

 

[Bret Hawk]

@ Molson4u

First of all I have to admit that due to the shortage of time available to me I’m unable to explain my point of view in detail. Again I would like to reiterate that the Quranic Ayaats which I’ve quoted earlier in this thread was used non other than the Juriconsults (Muftis) of Islam including the scholars (Imam Ibn Taymmiya and his students for example) of the past and present. Even the Shi’te scholars (Including Allama Taba Tabayi for instance) also invoke the same Ayaats on the subject matter of Blasphemy and Apostasy. Secondly it’s a grave ignorance of someone’s part to expect Quran to enumerate every single matter with its semantics and explanations of any event with its proper geographical location and time frame, the style of Quran, as its students and scholars know this glaring fact very well, is to allude on matters like for instance the duration of stay of the inhabitants of cave (Ashaab ul Kahaf), the stopping and anchoring of the Ark of Noah on one specific mountain (Which has been called as Mountain of Ararat with no further clarification at all), the method of Zakat calculation and its distribution, performing the rituals of Salah, fasting and Hajj, the further explanations of inheritance laws, the nature of various other issues related to the state treasury, the method & mode of governance and so on and so forth.

The experts of Islamic jurisprudence have this consensus that there are roughly three kinds of blasphemers one is who’s a born Muslim, a recent convert and a non Muslim. Usually the experts give more concession to the recently converted Muslim on grounds of his non familiarity with the nature and importance of religious principles and its respected personalities. Some (And I like this reasoning the most) suggest to give the blasphemers some time to recant on their alleged offense of blasphemy and apostasy, for majority of them an adult, sane and free individual does not require any compassion and is required to be executed immediately after of course establishing his offense, for some (Hanafites and Shi’te scholars for instance) the execution is not permitted to be carried out against the woman culprit but a solitary confinement and physical torture is recommended by them until they retract from their blasphemous views and ask for forgiveness from Almighty but the rest of the scholars (From Malikite, Hanbalite and Shafite school of thoughts) free women offenders also need to be executed like their male counterparts.

Coming back to the references of Quranic Ayaats, I have to assure you brother Molson that the legal experts of Islam are more competent and knowledgeable than any other layman like you and me to know this fact that word Blasphemy (Tajdeef) is not directly mentioned in those Ayaats but for your kind information the other meanings of Tajdeef are Kufr (Infidelity) and to hide (From the truth) according to the dictionary entries. In Fiqh e Islami the blasphemy and Apostasy is synonymous to the words of Kuffar, Sinners and Irtidad (The deviators from the path of Islam) plus the blasphemers of Allah SWT and His Deen is categorized within the domain of Haqooq Allah and the blasphemy of Prophet pbuh falls in the category of Haqooq ul Ibaad (Which you might know that it can't be pardoned unless the concern affected individual is present physically to forgive or ask for the punitive action against his tormentor) and according to the consensual argument of Faqihs of Islam that right of Prophet pbuh has been transferred to his community after his demise from this world. Therefore only the experts of Shariah Laws and the responsible figures of a state administration can decide according to the rulings of Islam the fate of such persistent offenders of Blasphemy and Apostasy. If you put the abovementioned explanation in to perspective then you will come to know the true nature and wisdom of the above mentioned Ayaats of Quran which majority of Muftis use on such matters and for further corroboration you can consult the legal compendiums of Fatawa Alamgiri, Hidaya, Kifaya, Dural Mukhtar, Radd ul Muhtar and Quaduri and can tally the facts and explications which I’ve provided above in a concise manner.

Furthermore you have expertly neglected to the Hadith and Seerat references which I had presented in that thread which suggested the personal acts and orders of the Prophet pbuh himself during the later part of his blessed life in the state of Medina Munawara. Its true that during the Makkaan period Prophet pbuh always showed restraint to his tormentors and blasphemers according to the orders and teachings of Allah SWT and after the passage of that period of trials and stiff ordeals the same Prophet pbuh was ordered by Almighty to change his strategy from defensive posture to the offensive one and many rulings in their complete and extended forms were revealed in Medina not in Makkah, which is also an undeniable fact. Therefore this grave misconception that the blessed Prophet pbuh when used to pray and say nothing to his tormentors and abusers in Makkah therefore the same sort of practice should be followed in this current era having known this fact clearly that how much the conduct of Prophet pbuh was transformed in Medina according to the divine and wisdom laden dictates of Allah SWT. Therefore I would like to urge you to extensively go through the works of Hadith, Seerat biographies, Holy Quran’s exegesis and fiqh manuals of Islamic scholars in order to clear these variant form of misconceptions in your heart and mind.

Lastly I’m fully aware the complexities and nature of misuse which can be done by some individuals against their opponents and which might also cause the harm to the innocent accused personnel. That’s why to me (By going through the rationale of some Fiqh scholars) a thorough investigation of the matter along with the witnesses should be carried out in order to make sure that only the most credible and authentic information related to the alleged incident can sift through for legal experts, plus a grace period should be provided to such alleged individuals to repent and recant from thier offenses of blasphemy and apostasy even if its established legally against them, in order for them to reach to the proper decision by going through the golden principle processes of justice, balance & benevolence as strictly ordaned in the teachings of Islam. In that case of Asia Bibi, it’s the duty and responsibility of investigative agencies and the concerned authorities of law to establish her innocence or guilt in this incident, I and you can’t decide here on this case by adhering to our own biases and emotions so let the proper experts follow their processes and should the accused feel in this case that her case is not being handled in a professional manner she can ask the higher court of laws to provide her with the best available defense along with the professional expertise of human rights groups and other socially active NGOs in Pakistan.

 

[molson4u]

Dear Brother Bret Hawk... thanks you for your enlightening lecture. I don't have that much time to write 2000 words lecture but I will still try to cap everything in few words. I don't agree with the most of your lecture above and you or the scholars from any sect, that you quoted, can never convince me that those Aayat deal with blasphemy. I don't agree. Those Ayaat are stricktly for war, rules on engagement and muslim behaviour during the war. Please read the hole surah. Anyway, you have right to your opinion. The issue in this thread was Asia and the blasphemy law in Pakistan. I am glad that you finally conceded in your last para that it should be thoroughly investigated, a due legal process must be provided and this law should not be abused.

May Allah Bless us all.

 

[Imranpak]

The Pope remains silent when western nations regularly insult our Prophet(saw) by drawing pictures or other similar acts of blasphemy.This is an internal Pakistani matter so the dog collar's and bible bashers should shut the hell up!.

 

[nonee17]

From Dawn

Minister backs new probe in case of arrested Christian

LAHORE: A Pakistani cabinet minister on Thursday called for a thorough re-investigation and fair appeal for a Christian mother sentenced to death for blasphemy after the Pope called for her release.

On November 8, Asia Bibi was sentenced to hang in Pakistans central province Punjab after being accused of insulting the Prophet Mohammed in 2009.
Pakistans minister for minority affairs, Shahbaz Bhatti, told AFP that Asia had filed an appeal at the Lahore high court, the highest court in Punjab.
We have requested the Punjab government that the trial should be fair in the high court. She must also be provided security in jail, he said.
Asias supporters say the case is baseless and that her first trial was not heard properly, Bhatti said.
We have, therefore, asked the Punjab government that the case be reinvestigated properly.
Pope Benedict XVI this week called for her release and said Christians in Pakistan were often victims of violence and discrimination.
Pakistan has yet to execute anyone for blasphemy, but the case spotlights a controversial law which rights activists say encourages extremism in a Muslim country on the front line of the US-led war on al Qaeda.
Italys Foreign Minister Franco Frattini has said he was told during a visit to Islamabad last week that Pakistan was committed to changing the blasphemy law and promised to join the fight to save Asia.
Asias husband Ashiq Masih confirmed to AFP that the appeal had been filed, but said the family had no contact from the government.
In June 2009, his wife was asked to fetch water while out working in the fields. But Muslim women labourers objected, saying that as a non-Muslim, she should not touch the water bowl.
A few days later the women went to a local cleric and alleged that Asia made derogatory remarks about the Prophet Mohammed.
Police arrested her in Ittanwalai village and prosecuted under Section 295 C of the Pakistan Penal Code, which carries the death penalty.
Rights activists and minority pressure groups said it was the first time that a woman had been sentenced to hang in Pakistan for blasphemy, although a Muslim couple were jailed for life last year.
Only around three per cent of Pakistans population of 167 million is estimated to be non-Muslim. AFP
​

Is pope kuttay k bachay ko kya taqleef hai, is ko bolo k apna qibla theek karay pehle, pedophile !