*VETERAN* Indian journalist Sagarika Ghose on Indian Muslims

[desicad]

Re: *VETERAN* Indian journalist Sagarika Ghose on *INDIAN MUSLIMS*

If you find some time to flick through some neutral history books, I guess you will find the answers of all questions you made. I give you one brief overview, the creation of Pakistan was not the outcome of sheer Muslim League's efforts, Some big names of Congress like Sardar Patel and Nehro were also in favour of Indian Dismemberment....Now question arises why??? The reason was that the sense of deprivation and quest for freedom from Hindu majority had been engraved in the minds of Muslims and in British Indian army Muslims were in majority.....the bosses of India at that time thought that if we didn't give freedom to Pakistan, the majority of Muslims in Army would either lead to the domination of Muslims in Hindu majority country or the most probable thing is that there will be mutiny in army in future, particularly during crisis times.....Now if you see the presence of Sikhs in Indian Army, the Sikhs are on key positions in army and also form a very strong minority within the army.....

Secondly you asked, why it didn't happened in previous wars, tell me one thing, after Golden Temple Operation, had India and Pakistan fought any war, the answer is no...In the wake of Sikhs killings, Indian army was deployed on the borders of Pakistan but never resulted into a war, the reason is that which i told you, possibility of Sikh mutiny in Indian army.....You may argue that after nuclear tests, neither of the country is willing to risk full fledged war, no.....During Rajive Gandhi tenure, Idian army was deployed but India didn't risk war, the reason comes to my mind is very obvious...potential Sikh mutiny....

So far as outlash of war on Pakistan is concerned, frankly speaking, this nation hates so much India that they become united during war times....If you study history, 1965 war and 1971 war were initiated by Pakistan to unite the divided nation. In 1971, Bengalis had gone so far from Pakistan, that instead of uniting Pakistan, it back-fired and Pakistan dismembered.....

Don't portray me warmonger, I hate war and want India and Pakistan as good to each other as US and Canada are......


This is something I want to share, don't trust me at all, do study by yourself, ask some good teachers about the apprehensions in the minds of Indian establishment that I pointed....I can be absolutely wrong from your prospective, but nothing is wrong in research and reading..

I don't portray you as warmonger as can make out from all your posts in general and not necessarily related to this topic.....
But your argument is seriously flawed......first you are assuming that I am not well read without even knowing me....
second you are of the wrong belief that mutiny can happen only during the war time......it can happen anytime if it has to happen.........yes sikhs are in key positions in the army and the reason is Indians have no doubt about their patriotism and commitment to the nation.......now even at the height of the khalistan movement there was absolutely no sign of mutiny......also in '99 India pakistan did go to war even though it was not a full scale war, so to say there war no war is not totally correct.....now you are aware that India has not started any of the four wars so for you to say that India did not risk a war during Rajeev Gandhi's time is misplaced.......
Have you heard of the name K.P.S. Gill?......so considering all the points above, your theory of mutiny does not carry any weight.....
Again there is contradiction in the later part of your post.....you said '65 and '71 wars were started by pakitsan to unite the country....so you in a way agree that the unity in your country is fragile and it has to resort to wars and anti India sentiments to unite people.......if '71 backfired with bangladesh, how can you be certain that it will not happen again with say balochistan or any other group?......think again........

 

[Typhoon]

Re: *VETERAN* Indian journalist Sagarika Ghose on *INDIAN MUSLIMS*

In Hindu culture Over 300 million dallits in India are considered as untouchables.
Just imagine in 2012 people of India still live with such a medieval believe.
Muslims, Christians and Sikhs are on daily bases discriminated. They cant even buy houses or flats in areas meant only for hindus. Such bakwaas society and mentality. Yeah it only happens in Gandhi`s Hindu India. They have not been able to produce any philosopher, scientist, conqueror, or create any expanding empire.
They are the only people in the whole world who has been subjects to be ruled on their own soil for thousands of years.
(By arabs, by turks, by persians, by pathans, by mughals) all muslims (by punjabis) sikha shahi, and brits (christians).
Hindus tried once, the marhattas, but Ahmed Shah Abdali came and defeated them in panipatt. So hindus have never controlled their own soil at all.
Hindus are mainly dravidians. You can see that on their flat and broad noses, fluffy faces and dark skin. Tamils and native bush people of australia are also dravidians.
The aryans came from persia and afghanistan and conquered the sub-continent first and implemented the system of cast for easier controlling the people. When the aryans mingled with hindu women, they got pregnant and gave birth to the children of aryans, the half breeds, they were positioned above other hindus as Brahmans since they were half aryans or half dravidian. 7 percent of indian population are today from this cast. They are still positioned as the highest cast. They are a bit fair in skin color and bit taller than the average hindu.
India never existed before 1947. Pre-1947 it was british raj, indian passport and constitution, flag or currency didnt exist.
Before the brits, it was officially called the Delhi sultanat. before that it was several minor kingdoms and states.
India as a state came to existent in 1947. Before that the word Bharat was only a myth.

Churches are burned, mosques are demolished, sikh temples are invaded, what a backward society and culture.
India has more poor people than the entire African continent. The worlds highest ratio of HIV and the only country in the world where the ratio of women are much lesser than men. Since one out of eight baby girls are allowed to born, rest are killed in mothers womb.

40 percent of indian federation is controlled by the seperatist maoists, called the red corridor. Read about it.

 

[sadia_gul]

Re: *VETERAN* Indian journalist Sagarika Ghose on *INDIAN MUSLIMS*

I don't portray you as warmonger as can make out from all your posts in general and not necessarily related to this topic.....
But your argument is seriously flawed......first you are assuming that I am not well read without even knowing me....
second you are of the wrong belief that mutiny can happen only during the war time......it can happen anytime if it has to happen.........yes sikhs are in key positions in the army and the reason is Indians have no doubt about their patriotism and commitment to the nation.......now even at the height of the khalistan movement there was absolutely no sign of mutiny......also in '99 India pakistan did go to war even though it was not a full scale war, so to say there war no war is not totally correct.....now you are aware that India has not started any of the four wars so for you to say that India did not risk a war during Rajeev Gandhi's time is misplaced.......
Have you heard of the name K.P.S. Gill?......so considering all the points above, your theory of mutiny does not carry any weight.....
Again there is contradiction in the later part of your post.....you said '65 and '71 wars were started by pakitsan to unite the country....so you in a way agree that the unity in your country is fragile and it has to resort to wars and anti India sentiments to unite people.......if '71 backfired with bangladesh, how can you be certain that it will not happen again with say balochistan or any other group?......think again........

I beg ur pardon to say that I never assumed that you are not well read...yes my assumption can be to this point that you have not read neutral historians like Mubarak Ali, Ayesha Jalal, K.K.Aziz etc...There would be many Indian historians as well, but I have read these ones....Kargil was never a war, rather to call it a battle would be wrong, it was just a skirmish on bit an expanded scale.....To be honest with you, I personally keep on talking abt Balochistan issue and saying that Pakistan should stop treating Balochistan as its colony otherwise we can experience the same fate as we did in 1971, but in real I do know that there is NO CHANCE of Balochistan's succession.....Balouchistan forms 44% of Pakistan's area and 5% of Pakistan's population and it is adjacent to Pakistan, in case of East Pakistan, now Bangladesh, there was no geographical proximity that gave India a chance to exploit the situation....Majority of Baloch population lives in South Punjab and Sind, they never supported the successionate designs of Baloch living in Balochistan, so there is no possibility of separation of Balochistan....Atta Ullah Mengal, a hard core Baloch nationalist himself said that separation of Balochistan from Pakistan is an unviable venture....Secondly, whenever there is a war like situation in Afghanistan, there is a trouble in Balochistan.

Now coming to India and Khalistan movement.....Khalistan movement was a popular movement and cannot be materialised unless there is a support from outside.....Pakistan is nowadays trying to cope with its internal issues, the day Pakistan got its problem sorted, there is a possibility that India may face hard times again....the best solution with India is that it should resolve Kashmir issue in the light of UN resolutions that clearly say that Kashmir should be sorted on Kashmiris will....the will Kashmiris should be the sole criterion to figure out Kashmir problem....

Sikhs have not forgot the humiliation of their sacred place at the hands of Indian Army....Still in Canada, US and UK, as u admitted by urself, there is strong demand for Khalistan.....Any bbad time for India in future can lead to the situation i m talking abt. Had India faced the situation like the one Pakistan is facing since last decade, there would have been a different geographical state of the sub-continent.

 

[desicad]

Re: *VETERAN* Indian journalist Sagarika Ghose on *INDIAN MUSLIMS*

I beg ur pardon to say that I never assumed that you are not well read...yes my assumption can be to this point that you have not read neutral historians like Mubarak Ali, Ayesha Jalal, K.K.Aziz etc...There would be many Indian historians as well, but I have read these ones....Kargil was never a war, rather to call it a battle would be wrong, it was just a skirmish on bit an expanded scale.....To be honest with you, I personally keep on talking abt Balochistan issue and saying that Pakistan should stop treating Balochistan as its colony otherwise we can experience the same fate as we did in 1971, but in real I do know that there is NO CHANCE of Balochistan's succession.....Balouchistan forms 44% of Pakistan's area and 5% of Pakistan's population and it is adjacent to Pakistan, in case of East Pakistan, now Bangladesh, there was no geographical proximity that gave India a chance to exploit the situation....Majority of Baloch population lives in South Punjab and Sind, they never supported the successionate designs of Baloch living in Balochistan, so there is no possibility of separation of Balochistan....Atta Ullah Mengal, a hard core Baloch nationalist himself said that separation of Balochistan from Pakistan is an unviable venture....Secondly, whenever there is a war like situation in Afghanistan, there is a trouble in Balochistan.

-Have read Ayesha Jalal........she is a popular in India as an historian and intellectual......
-I already said Kargil was a not a full scale war or a battle.....still it was a war confined to limited area and lasted more than two months.....
-Agree that balochistan secession is not easy and chances are quite remote....but always a concern for pakistan every now and then.....

Now coming to India and Khalistan movement.....Khalistan movement was a popular movement and cannot be materialised unless there is a support from outside.....Pakistan is nowadays trying to cope with its internal issues, the day Pakistan got its problem sorted, there is a possibility that India may face hard times again....the best solution with India is that it should resolve Kashmir issue in the light of UN resolutions that clearly say that Kashmir should be sorted on Kashmiris will....the will Kashmiris should be the sole criterion to figure out Kashmir problem....

Don't understand what you are trying to say here......assuming pakistan's problem gets over you mean pakistan will launch a war against India and/or send terrorists from across the border to create hard time for India?.....you are basically implying that unless the Kashmir problem is solved pakistan will hold a gun to India's head in form of fueling insurgencies......

Sikhs have not forgot the humiliation of their sacred place at the hands of Indian Army....Still in Canada, US and UK, as u admitted by urself, there is strong demand for Khalistan.....Any bbad time for India in future can lead to the situation i m talking abt. Had India faced the situation like the one Pakistan is facing since last decade, there would have been a different geographical state of the sub-continent.

I never said there is a strong demand.....what I meant was there are few groups outside India who actually are the ones who left during state operations against them.....there is no popular support for them in India as well as outside.......its almost quarter of a century now and they have put the eighties behind and moved on...........your last sentence is hypothetical starting with Had India, so nothing to say there....it seems you are too optimistic and over confident on disintegration of India........

 

[sadia_gul]

Re: *VETERAN* Indian journalist Sagarika Ghose on *INDIAN MUSLIMS*

-Have read Ayesha Jalal........she is a popular in India as an historian and intellectual......
-I already said Kargil was a not a full scale war or a battle.....still it was a war confined to limited area and lasted more than two months.....
-Agree that balochistan secession is not easy and chances are quite remote....but always a concern for pakistan every now and then.....

Don't understand what you are trying to say here......assuming pakistan's problem gets over you mean pakistan will launch a war against India and/or send terrorists from across the border to create hard time for India?.....you are basically implying that unless the Kashmir problem is solved pakistan will hold a gun to India's head in form of fueling insurgencies......

I never said there is a strong demand.....what I meant was there are few groups outside India who actually are the ones who left during state operations against them.....there is no popular support for them in India as well as outside.......its almost quarter of a century now and they have put the eighties behind and moved on...........your last sentence is hypothetical starting with Had India, so nothing to say there....it seems you are too optimistic and over confident on disintegration of India........

hahaha....I am quite surprised to read the phrase you used for me "too optimistic". I will be really gloomed if anything happens to status quo, at least for the geographic position of both coutries, onl with the exception of Kashmir issue. If Kashmiris decide to live with India, I would be more than happy, and if they want to be part of India, then Indian should accept their right of self-determination and let them decide what they want to decide about the fate of their generations and in case they want independence, then both of the countries must accept it warmly. So far as my that statement is concerned which says that when there will be peace and stability in Pakistan, there would be hard times in India, here I am not telling my will, but trying to narrate a possibility.....What India is doing in Afghanistan and Balochistan is an open secret, so keeping in view the principle of tit fo tat, what do you think Pakistan will sit idle, never...The strategic position of Afghanistan for Pakistan is as much important as Nepal's for India, even more than that..if any regional power shows its interest in Nepal, particularly that country, which does not share border with Nepal, it will surely bewilder Indian policy makers, same is the case of Pak-Afghan position....
By your comments, i can easily infer that you are under-estimating Khalistan issue, in my first comments, I used the term "smouldering" for Khalistan issue...and it means that currently does not pose an immediate threat but in future may turn to be dangerous....

It is my assumption that your analysis of history is tinged withh the colour of patriotism and to be a neutral analyst, one must be as much blunt as one can be......When I give my views about such topics, i try to oust patriotism from my heart and mind, so that my analysis should not be contaminated with any kind of feelings.

 

[desicad]

Re: *VETERAN* Indian journalist Sagarika Ghose on *INDIAN MUSLIMS*

hahaha....I am quite surprised to read the phrase you used for me "too optimistic". I will be really gloomed if anything happens to status quo, at least for the geographic position of both coutries, onl with the exception of Kashmir issue. If Kashmiris decide to live with India, I would be more than happy, and if they want to be part of India, then Indian should accept their right of self-determination and let them decide what they want to decide about the fate of their generations and in case they want independence, then both of the countries must accept it warmly. So far as my that statement is concerned which says that when there will be peace and stability in Pakistan, there would be hard times in India, here I am not telling my will, but trying to narrate a possibility.....What India is doing in Afghanistan and Balochistan is an open secret, so keeping in view the principle of tit fo tat, what do you think Pakistan will sit idle, never...The strategic position of Afghanistan for Pakistan is as much important as Nepal's for India, even more than that..if any regional power shows its interest in Nepal, particularly that country, which does not share border with Nepal, it will surely bewilder Indian policy makers, same is the case of Pak-Afghan position....

you are confused and all over the place......you started with kashmir and came down to afghanistan and balochistan.....
you earlier said that if kashmir is not solved pakistan (once its problems are over) will fuel insurgency in India and give India a hard time.....and to justify that you said tit for tat policy and brought in afghanistan......let me try to understand what you are saying by giving two scenarios....
1. Kashmir solved, but India has presence in Afghanistan.....will pakistan fuel insurgency in India?
2. Kashmir not solved and no Indian presence in Afghanistan.....will pakistan fuel insurgency in India?

By your comments, i can easily infer that you are under-estimating Khalistan issue, in my first comments, I used the term "smouldering" for Khalistan issue...and it means that currently does not pose an immediate threat but in future may turn to be dangerous....

It is my assumption that your analysis of history is tinged withh the colour of patriotism and to be a neutral analyst, one must be as much blunt as one can be......When I give my views about such topics, i try to oust patriotism from my heart and mind, so that my analysis should not be contaminated with any kind of feelings.

hmm....lets look at this....
Balochistan.....continuously burning and on the edge with extremism and violence for many years......
Punjab.....totally peaceful for two decades now and in fact one of the most progressive states in terms of economy.....
but your are a neutral analyst spot on with your assessment and prediction on balochistan......whereas I am blinded by patriotism and out of my senses with dumb analysis........interesting......(hmm)

 

[Imranpak]

Re: *VETERAN* Indian journalist Sagarika Ghose on *INDIAN MUSLIMS*

Your post is contradictory from the view point of thinking to acting and expectation.

Khalistan was buried in the eighties. Kashmir issue was buried in the last decade. Thanks to Patel, India was united Geographically in 1947, but today they are more united due to demographic movement of Indians within India and more recently due to economics.

The only contradiction is in your under-developed brain if you have one at all! The comments you have made are unrelated to my prior one's regarding Indian Muslim's and Pakistan. Had the Kashmir issue been over you wouldn't have 700,000 Indian terrorists killing innocents as aired in yesterday's programme, it's still an outstanding issue and will remain so until UN resolution is implemented. http://www.channel4.com/programmes/kashmirs-torture-trail/4od

Khalistan can also implode anytime, there are still millions of pro-Khalistani Sikh's like Balwant Singh Rajoana giving your establishment regular headaches.

 

[only_truths]

Re: *VETERAN* Indian journalist Sagarika Ghose on *INDIAN MUSLIMS*

The only contradiction is in your under-developed brain if you have one at all! The comments you have made are unrelated to my prior one's regarding Indian Muslim's and Pakistan. Had the Kashmir issue been over you wouldn't have 700,000 Indian terrorists killing innocents as aired in yesterday's programme, it's still an outstanding issue and will remain so until UN resolution is implemented. http://www.channel4.com/programmes/kashmirs-torture-trail/4od

Khalistan can also implode anytime, there are still millions of pro-Khalistani Sikh's like Balwant Singh Rajoana giving your establishment regular headaches.

If you cannot win an argument, you start abusing. What about your boasting of knowing more about India than [MENTION=13871]Unicorn[/MENTION] and replying to my question that what you knew ten good things about India?

 

[Unicorn]

Re: *VETERAN* Indian journalist Sagarika Ghose on *INDIAN MUSLIMS*

If you cannot win an argument, you start abusing. What about your boasting of knowing more about India than @Unicorn and replying to my question that what you knew ten good things about India?

He knows that Muslims in India live in segregated areas but he does not know that there are a lot who don't and the one who do most of them are self segregated. He does not know that Dal Khalsa, seratist party has failed to elect a single candidate to the assembly and in the last election did not contest because they were going to loose their deposits.;)

 

[sadia_gul]

Re: *VETERAN* Indian journalist Sagarika Ghose on *INDIAN MUSLIMS*

you are confused and all over the place......you started with kashmir and came down to afghanistan and balochistan.....
you earlier said that if kashmir is not solved pakistan (once its problems are over) will fuel insurgency in India and give India a hard time.....and to justify that you said tit for tat policy and brought in afghanistan......let me try to understand what you are saying by giving two scenarios....
1. Kashmir solved, but India has presence in Afghanistan.....will pakistan fuel insurgency in India?
2. Kashmir not solved and no Indian presence in Afghanistan.....will pakistan fuel insurgency in India?


hmm....lets look at this....
Balochistan.....continuously burning and on the edge with extremism and violence for many years......
Punjab.....totally peaceful for two decades now and in fact one of the most progressive states in terms of economy.....
but your are a neutral analyst spot on with your assessment and prediction on balochistan......whereas I am blinded by patriotism and out of my senses with dumb analysis........interesting......(hmm)

Ok, now let me clear everything....I am not confused at all.....I didn't say many thing which I assumed go without saying....and I assumed that you have basic knowledge of those things already, but I guess I will have to start from the very basics.....Now coming to the point, Kashmir is the bone of contention between the two countries called India and Pakistan.....Any move on either side is taken with much doubt and skepticism, Indian involvement in Afghanistan, in the presence of Kashmir issue, makes Pakistan skeptic. Now coming to your questions, if Kashmir is solved will Pakistan have any problem with Indian involvement in Afghanistan, the answer is no..... this region can be a tension free region, even India and Pakistan together can take part in the rebuilding of Afghanistan.... and of course Pakistan shouldn't have any problem with Indian involvement in Afghanistan.....I don't know whether you know it or not, Ayub Khan was the first Army dictator of Pakistan who offered Nehru to have common defence and Nehru starring in the sky replied "COMMON DEFENCE AGAINST WHOM". I guess it should answer your first question.

Now coming towards your second question, Yes, If Kashmir is not solved, there is very much possibility that insurgency will keep on feuling in Kashmir across the Pakistani border...Now here two questions arise, will this insurgency be feuled by Pakistani state or Non-State actors in Pakistan. I guess, the possibility of non-state actors is much more than Pakistani state's direct involvement, but the invovement of Pakistani state can not be rejected outrightly as well.....If you know the history of India, then you would better know about Khilafat movement.....Khilafat was an issue of Turks but Indian Muslims did involve, why, because of commonality of religion, We should have nothing to do with Palestine issue, that is totally an Arab issue, but no leader in Pakistan can dare to recognise Israel, why? the same reason; commonality of religion. SO one must understand the sensitivity of public towards certain issues before reaching on a conclusion. I personally hate Arabs from the core of my heart, but if tomorrow, I become PM of Pakistan, i can't say that we have no issue swith Israel and I am going to recognise Israel....I mentioned Khilafat and Israel as examples, Please don't blame me confused for that....So how can a sane person even think about it that Muslims of Kashmir are fighting against state terrorism of India and Muslims of Pakistan sit watching the whole thing silently. I used the term Indian State terrorism as per the perception of common Pakistani about this issue. My own perception can be entirely different. It is my honest opinion that Pakistani government cannot stop non-state actors to interfer in Kashmir Jihad, unless the issue is resolved.....

Now coming to the issue of Khalistan, Had you studied the history of Irish freedom Movement, you would have never asked these questions you raised here. The history of Ireland is very interesting, please read it, you will really enjoy it.....

Before Irish independence, there were Irish communities living in US, Canada, Australia and Russian..Even some Russian army generals were Irish, the movement for Independent Ireland was more popular among the communities living outside of Ireland than those that were living in Ireland....It didn't take couple of decades but almost a century to reap the fruits for Irish freedom fighters.....Irish people's urge for freedom was old but the real proper voice of freedom started in the mid of 1840's when a severe drought struck Ireland.....So far as Balochistan issue is concerned, Majority of Baloch population live in South Punjab and Sind, they are very much against the idea of Independent Balochistan......Many a freedom fighters themselves are of the view that Independent Balochistan is not a viable option, they come up with slogans of independence to over-state the gravity of situation going on in Balochistan...And I personally support the stance that Balochistan should be given much attention and Pakistan should stop treating Balochistan as a colony......

Now please don't say again that i am confused, I gave the example of Ireland as an example....hahaha....

 

[desicad]

Re: *VETERAN* Indian journalist Sagarika Ghose on *INDIAN MUSLIMS*

Ok, now let me clear everything....I am not confused at all.....I didn't say many thing which I assumed go without saying....and I assumed that you have basic knowledge of those things already, but I guess I will have to start from the very basics.....Now coming to the point, Kashmir is the bone of contention between the two countries called India and Pakistan.....Any move on either side is taken with much doubt and skepticism, Indian involvement in Afghanistan, in the presence of Kashmir issue, makes Pakistan skeptic. Now coming to your questions, if Kashmir is solved, this region can be a tension free region, India nad Pakistan can be partner in the rebuilding of Afghanistan and Pakistan shouldn't have any problem with Indian involvement in Afghanistan.....I don't know whether you know it or not, Ayub Khan was the first Army dictator of Pakistan who offered Nehru to have common defence and Nehru starring in the sky replied "COMMON DEFENCE AGAINST WHOM". I guess it should answer your first question.

Now coming towards your second question, Yes If Kashmir is not solved, there is very much possibility that insurgency will keep on feuling in Kashmir across the Pakistani border...Now here two question arises, will this insurgency be feuled by Pakistani state or Non-State actors in Pakistan. I guess, the possibility of non-state actors is much more, but the invovement of Pakistani state can not be rejected outrightly.....If you know the history of India, then you would better know about Khilafat movement.....Khilafat was an issue of Turks but Indian Muslims did involve, why, because of commonality of religion, We should have nothing to do with Palestine issue, that is totally an Arab issue, but no leader in Pakistan can dare to recognise Israel, why? the answer you know very well. SO one must understand the sensitivity of public towards certain issues before reaching on a conclusion. I personally hate Arabs from the core of my heart, but tomorrow, I become PM of Pakistan, i can't say that we have no issue swith Israel and I am going to recognise Israel....I mentioned Khilafat and Israel as examples, Please don't blame me confused for that....So how is it possible that Muslim brothers of Pakistan are fighting against state terrorism of India and Pakistan's public sit watching the whole thing without interferring. I used the terms Muslim brothers and Indian State terrorism as per the perception of common Pakistani about this issue. My own perception can be entirely different.

oh my basics are not good enough......silly me.......:(...............well I am aware of the basic premise of the pakistan policy you mentioned....
pakistan is playing kashmir card in afghanistan and afghanistan card in kashmir.......sorry that's not gonna work......kashmir has nothing to do with afghanistan, it is an independent country......India will have its presence and relations keeping in mind the wish of the afghans and not pakistanis'....
pakistan has to stop treating afghanistan as its backyard and forget about the wrong notion of strategic depth which anyway has not paid off.....
Also the most important thing is you guys have to stop thinking that you are the thekedars of islam......nobody in the muslim world gives two hoots about it......btw I liked the way you put it as two countries called India and Pakistan.........

didn't know ayub khan was the first dictator, I always thought he was the sixth dictator........(bigsmile)​

Now coming to the issue of Khalistan, If you study the history of Irish freedom Movement, we will ask a single question you raised here. The history of Irelan is very interesting, please read it, you will really enjoy it.....

Before Irish independence, there were Irish communities living in US, Canada, Australia and Russian..Even some Russian army generals were Irish, the movement for Independent Ireland was more popular among the communities living outside of Ireland than those that was living in Ireland....It didn't take couple of decades but almost a century to reap the fruits for Irish freedom fighters.....So far as Balochistan issue is concerned, Majority of Baloch population live in South Punjab and Sind, they are very much against the idea of Independent Balochistan......Many a freedom fighters themselves are of the view that Independent Balochistan is not a viable option, they come up with slogans of independence to over-state the gravity of situation going on in Balochistan...And I personally support the stance that Balochistan should be given much attention and Pakistan should stop treating Balochistan as a colony......

Now please don't say again that i am confused, I gave the example of Ireland as an example....hahaha....

lol....you so are so desperate for khalistan that you are trying to justify that by picking an example from some part of the world and trying your best to somehow fit it.....like it.....:).....regarding balochistan I already admitted (read post# 24).......

 

[Unicorn]

Re: *VETERAN* Indian journalist Sagarika Ghose on *INDIAN MUSLIMS*

Ok, now let me clear everything....I am not confused at all.....I didn't say many thing which I assumed go without saying....and I assumed that you have basic knowledge of those things already, but I guess I will have to start from the very basics.....Now coming to the point, Kashmir is the bone of contention between the two countries called India and Pakistan.....Any move on either side is taken with much doubt and skepticism, Indian involvement in Afghanistan, in the presence of Kashmir issue, makes Pakistan skeptic. Now coming to your questions, if Kashmir is solved will Pakistan have any problem with Indian involvement in Afghanistan, the answer is no..... this region can be a tension free region, even India and Pakistan together can take part in the rebuilding of Afghanistan.... and of course Pakistan shouldn't have any problem with Indian involvement in Afghanistan.....I don't know whether you know it or not, Ayub Khan was the first Army dictator of Pakistan who offered Nehru to have common defence and Nehru starring in the sky replied "COMMON DEFENCE AGAINST WHOM". I guess it should answer your first question.

Now coming towards your second question, Yes, If Kashmir is not solved, there is very much possibility that insurgency will keep on feuling in Kashmir across the Pakistani border...Now here two questions arise, will this insurgency be feuled by Pakistani state or Non-State actors in Pakistan. I guess, the possibility of non-state actors is much more than Pakistani state's direct involvement, but the invovement of Pakistani state can not be rejected outrightly as well.....If you know the history of India, then you would better know about Khilafat movement.....Khilafat was an issue of Turks but Indian Muslims did involve, why, because of commonality of religion, We should have nothing to do with Palestine issue, that is totally an Arab issue, but no leader in Pakistan can dare to recognise Israel, why? the same reason; commonality of religion. SO one must understand the sensitivity of public towards certain issues before reaching on a conclusion. I personally hate Arabs from the core of my heart, but if tomorrow, I become PM of Pakistan, i can't say that we have no issue swith Israel and I am going to recognise Israel....I mentioned Khilafat and Israel as examples, Please don't blame me confused for that....So how can a sane person even think about it that Muslims of Kashmir are fighting against state terrorism of India and Muslims of Pakistan sit watching the whole thing silently. I used the term Indian State terrorism as per the perception of common Pakistani about this issue. My own perception can be entirely different. It is my honest opinion that Pakistani government cannot stop non-state actors to interfer in Kashmir Jihad, unless the issue is resolved.....

Now coming to the issue of Khalistan, Had you studied the history of Irish freedom Movement, you would have never asked these questions you raised here. The history of Ireland is very interesting, please read it, you will really enjoy it.....

Before Irish independence, there were Irish communities living in US, Canada, Australia and Russian..Even some Russian army generals were Irish, the movement for Independent Ireland was more popular among the communities living outside of Ireland than those that were living in Ireland....It didn't take couple of decades but almost a century to reap the fruits for Irish freedom fighters.....Irish people's urge for freedom was old but the real proper voice of freedom started in the mid of 1840's when a severe drought struck Ireland.....So far as Balochistan issue is concerned, Majority of Baloch population live in South Punjab and Sind, they are very much against the idea of Independent Balochistan......Many a freedom fighters themselves are of the view that Independent Balochistan is not a viable option, they come up with slogans of independence to over-state the gravity of situation going on in Balochistan...And I personally support the stance that Balochistan should be given much attention and Pakistan should stop treating Balochistan as a colony......

Now please don't say again that i am confused, I gave the example of Ireland as an example....hahaha....

To me it spears that your analysis based on your perception is quite reasonable and can become a basis for an understanding. But people like you are in a minority. Conversely, I believe that Pakistan is a country very hard to trust. They attacked Kashmir in 1947, 1965 and Kargil and lied all the way. If there were more people like you than the road to piece becomes possible. For the time being Pakistan has stopped its terrorism into India but I believe its only that Pak army needs them in Afghanistan, thats my perception.

 

[sadia_gul]

Re: *VETERAN* Indian journalist Sagarika Ghose on *INDIAN MUSLIMS*

oh my basics are not good enough......silly me.......:(...............well I am aware of the basic premise of the pakistan policy you mentioned....
pakistan is playing kashmir card in afghanistan and afghanistan card in kashmir.......sorry that's not gonna work......kashmir has nothing to do with afghanistan, it is an independent country......India will have its presence and relations keeping in mind the wish of the afghans and not pakistanis'....
pakistan has to stop treating afghanistan as its backyard and forget about the wrong notion of strategic depth which anyway has not paid off.....
Also the most important thing is you guys have to stop thinking that you are the thekedars of islam......nobody in the muslim world gives two hoots about it......btw I liked the way you put it as two countries called India and Pakistan.........

didn't know ayub khan was the first dictator, I always thought he was the sixth dictator........(bigsmile)​

lol....you so are so desperate for khalistan that you are trying to justify that by picking an example from some part of the world and trying your best to somehow fit it.....like it.....:).....regarding balochistan I already admitted (read post# 24).......

I don't believe you live in India or a country where Muslims are good numbers......Some of your wrings make me to believe that you are not even familiar with the basics.......:13:

If you ever flicked through my comments, you can see that I am against Taliban and the deeply rooted perception in the minds of people that they are thekaydars of Islam.....More thanm 35000 people have been killed so far at the hands of Islamic militants and still, people of Pakistan don't consider them real enemies of Pakistan....The only plus that goes to Taliban is that they are Muslims....And Kashmir and Afghanistan are not two different countries at all in the sense that they are being ruled over by NON-MUSLIM FORIEGN OCCUPANTS. India and US are considered as usurpers and the concept of Jihad nows no boundaries.....

Hahaha...I have no interest in the creation of Khalistan, the only commonality I have with them is that I am also Punjabi, otherwise I have nothing to do with their movement....I personally wish that there should be world where there are no boundaries at all. A world federation where there should be no country to hate for...I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth, and I am a citizen of the world.


And let me make a prophecy here, "Agar India Afghanioon ko apna khoon peela'aey aur Pakistan Afghanioon ka khoon baha'aey, phir bhi yeh qaom India se nafrat ziada karay gi Pakistan ki nisbat".

Hatred against Non-Muslim particulary against Hindus and then particular against India is engraved in the minds of Afghans....I am not saying in the minds of Taliban, I am saying in the minds of AFGHANS.

If anyone challenge my statement, I would simply say, he knows nothing abt Afghan culture and Afghan Islam....

 

[sadia_gul]

Re: *VETERAN* Indian journalist Sagarika Ghose on *INDIAN MUSLIMS*

To me it spears that your analysis based on your perception is quite reasonable and can become a basis for an understanding. But people like you are in a minority. Conversely, I believe that Pakistan is a country very hard to trust. They attacked Kashmir in 1947, 1965 and Kargil and lied all the way. If there were more people like you than the road to piece becomes possible. For the time being Pakistan has stopped its terrorism into India but I believe its only that Pak army needs them in Afghanistan, thats my perception.

I have been discussing this issue with Desicard, but he was not getting the point I wanted to make.....I am not admirer of Pakistan army, but here I would say that in the wake of Afghan Jihad (that is going on in Afghanistan against US) the possible flux of these mujahideen into Kashmir would not be in the control of Pakistani state or Pakistan Army. Had these non-actors (Mujahideen) been in the control of Pak Army, they would not have killed so many Pak Army soldiers, there are footages on youtube.....If you remember, after Soviet withdrawl from Afghanistan in 1989 the Kashmir insurgency got its force from the Mujahideen who were fighting in Afghanistan....The concept of Jihad knows no boundaries...Mujahideen are trained in a way they fight on the side of their Muslim brothers against the non-Muslim occupants. Now it does not make any differenece, if the non-muslim occupant is India or US, these are Muslims of Afghanistan or Kashmir.....

I wish that India should resolve Kashmir issue amicably and both of these coutries could concentrate on their economic well-being....If India and Pakistan got their all issues resolved, this region can become the most prosperous region of Asia, We can only hope for the best....

 

[desicad]

Re: *VETERAN* Indian journalist Sagarika Ghose on *INDIAN MUSLIMS*

I don't believe you live in India or a country where Muslims are good numbers......Some of your wrings make me to believe that you are not even familiar with the basics.......:13:

If you ever flicked through my comments, you can see that I am against Taliban and the deeply rooted perception in the minds of people that they are thekaydars of Islam.....More thanm 35000 people have been killed so far at the hands of Islamic militants and still, people of Pakistan don't consider them real enemies of Pakistan....The only plus that goes to Taliban is that they are Muslims....And Kashmir and Afghanistan are not two different countries at all in the sense that they are being ruled over by NON-MUSLIM FORIEGN OCCUPANTS. India and US are considered as usurpers and the concept of Jihad nows no boundaries.....

Hahaha...I have no interest in the creation of Khalistan, the only commonality I have with them is that I am also Punjabi, otherwise I have nothing to do with their movement....I personally wish that there should be world where there are no boundaries at all. A world federation where there should be no country to hate for...I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth, and I am a citizen of the world.


And let me make a prophecy here, "Agar India Afghanioon ko apna khoon peela'aey aur Pakistan Afghanioon ka khoon baha'aey, phir bhi yeh qaom India se nafrat ziada karay gi Pakistan ki nisbat".

Hatred against Non-Muslim particulary against Hindus and then particular against India is engraved in the minds of Afghans....I am not saying in the minds of Taliban, I am saying in the minds of AFGHANS.

If anyone challenge my statement, I would simply say, he knows nothing abt Afghan culture and Afghan Islam....

Please let me know what writings you are referring to which led to your couclusion about my basics.....
I was not referring to talibans.....I was pointing towards pakistanis as the thekeydars of islam..........also I know very well that you hate taliban and even want to nuke them.....:)
madam with all due respect you can make as many phrophecies as you want to......but I challenge you that you are dead wrong.......

 

[Unicorn]

Re: *VETERAN* Indian journalist Sagarika Ghose on *INDIAN MUSLIMS*

I don't believe you live in India or a country where Muslims are good numbers......Some of your wrings make me to believe that you are not even familiar with the basics.......:13:

If you ever flicked through my comments, you can see that I am against Taliban and the deeply rooted perception in the minds of people that they are thekaydars of Islam.....More thanm 35000 people have been killed so far at the hands of Islamic militants and still, people of Pakistan don't consider them real enemies of Pakistan....The only plus that goes to Taliban is that they are Muslims....And Kashmir and Afghanistan are not two different countries at all in the sense that they are being ruled over by NON-MUSLIM FORIEGN OCCUPANTS. India and US are considered as usurpers and the concept of Jihad nows no boundaries.....

Hahaha...I have no interest in the creation of Khalistan, the only commonality I have with them is that I am also Punjabi, otherwise I have nothing to do with their movement....I personally wish that there should be world where there are no boundaries at all. A world federation where there should be no country to hate for...I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth, and I am a citizen of the world.


And let me make a prophecy here, "Agar India Afghanioon ko apna khoon peela'aey aur Pakistan Afghanioon ka khoon baha'aey, phir bhi yeh qaom India se nafrat ziada karay gi Pakistan ki nisbat".

Hatred against Non-Muslim particulary against Hindus and then particular against India is engraved in the minds of Afghans....I am not saying in the minds of Taliban, I am saying in the minds of AFGHANS.

If anyone challenge my statement, I would simply say, he knows nothing abt Afghan culture and Afghan Islam....

I agree with every thing you have mentioned accept for Afghanistan. Its Pakistan where hate for India and Hindus is is engraved in their minds Jews at number 2 and Christians at number 3.

I am submitting a piece of evidence to prove that you are wrong and you provide me with a piece of evidence of equal quality to prove your statement. I know in northern Afghanistan they love India a very high percentage. I have met a aot Afghan and Iranian students in India and I am still to meet one who does not despise Pakistan.

[SIZE=+1]Opinion poll: 71% Afghans favour India, 2% Pakistan[/SIZE]
DNA ^ | 20 Jan 2010
Posted on Tuesday, January 26, 2010 12:18:18 PM by cold start
New Delhi: Reflecting tremendous goodwill of its soft power in Afghanistan, India has been voted as the most favoured country, getting 71% votes in an opinion poll there while Pakistan was viewed favourably by a meagre 2% of the people.
The poll, commissioned by BBC, American Broadcasting Company (ABC) and German Broadcasting company ARD, showed India was way ahead of all other countries, including the US which is leading the war against terror there.
In the poll conducted between December 11 and 23 last year, Germany polled 59% and stood at second spot. The US came third with 51% polls, Iran followed with 50% votes and Britain got 39%.
Pakistan managed only two per cent votes, according to the survey conduced by Kabul-based Afghan Centre for Socio-Economic Opinion Research (ACSOR).
The vote in favour of India is seen as a reflection of the goodwill because of the developmental activities undertaken by it on a large scale in the war-ravaged country.
India has developmental assistance programmes to the tune of US$ 1.3 billion that covers road construction, healthcare, power sector and across-the-board capacity building in Afghanistan.
The results echoed the findings of a gallup survey of Afghanistan released in November in which 56% of the people voted for India when asked which group or country played the best role in resolving the situation in Afghanistan.
In fact, India surpassed even the UN and NATO by a per cent in this regard.

 

[Unicorn]

Re: *VETERAN* Indian journalist Sagarika Ghose on *INDIAN MUSLIMS*

I have been discussing this issue with Desicard, but he was not getting the point I wanted to make.....I am not admirer of Pakistan army, but here I would say that in the wake of Afghan Jihad (that is going on in Afghanistan against US) the possible flux of these mujahideen into Kashmir would not be in the control of Pakistani state or Pakistan Army. Had these non-actors (Mujahideen) been in the control of Pak Army, they would not have killed so many Pak Army soldiers, there are footages on youtube.....If you remember, after Soviet withdrawl from Afghanistan in 1989 the Kashmir insurgency got its force from the Mujahideen who were fighting in Afghanistan....The concept of Jihad knows no boundaries...Mujahideen are trained in a way they fight on the side of their Muslim brothers against the non-Muslim occupants. Now it does not make any differenece, if the non-muslim occupant is India or US, these are Muslims of Afghanistan or Kashmir.....

I wish that India should resolve Kashmir issue amicably and both of these coutries could concentrate on their economic well-being....If India and Pakistan got their all issues resolved, this region can become the most prosperous region of Asia, We can only hope for the best....

Historically there has been no evidence that Afghans were involved in any Jihadi activities in India it has been mostly Pakistanis.

Nevertheless I would also like to see the issue resolved and I like the plan IK has outlined. Hope he becomes the leader and acts upon it.

 

[sadia_gul]

Re: *VETERAN* Indian journalist Sagarika Ghose on *INDIAN MUSLIMS*

Please let me know what writings you are referring to which led to your couclusion about my basics.....
I was not referring to talibans.....I was pointing towards pakistanis as the thekeydars of islam..........also I know very well that you hate taliban and even want to nuke them.....:)
madam with all due respect you can make as many phrophecies as you want to......but I challenge you that you are dead wrong.......

I wish to be wrong but Afghan mentality is something like "INCORRIGIBLE". Have you heard the term Punjabi Taliban, they are fighting against Pak army as well as US forces in Afghanistan, this is Jihad that take them there in Afghanistan to launch Jihad, if you said tha Pakistani are thekadar of Islam, I can't anything abt it, and I wish I could.....So the thekadari of Pakistanis is not confined to Kashmir Jihad, they are in Afganistan as well to perfrom their duty of thekaydari, When they will be done with their thekaydari in Afghanistan, they might come to Kashmir....it is a possibility...

So far as your basics are concerned, hahaha..... you sometimes say that Kashmir and Afghanistan are different places, but bhai the phenomenon of Jihad is not confined to any particular area.....Pakistan has porous border, the flux of Jihadis is more in Afghansta and was less into Kashmir, but the flux was there as well...At other point you said that I don't understand why Pakistan will be itchy with Indian involvement in Afghanistan if issue of Kashmir is there....bro, these are self explanatory things.....

Any ways Up with United India and Down with Khalistan.....Now happy....hahaha...

 

[sadia_gul]

Re: *VETERAN* Indian journalist Sagarika Ghose on *INDIAN MUSLIMS*

I agree with every thing you have mentioned accept for Afghanistan. Its Pakistan where hate for India and Hindus is is engraved in their minds Jews at number 2 and Christians at number 3.

I am submitting a piece of evidence to prove that you are wrong and you provide me with a piece of evidence of equal quality to prove your statement. I know in northern Afghanistan they love India a very high percentage. I have met a aot Afghan and Iranian students in India and I am still to meet one who does not despise Pakistan.

[SIZE=+1]Opinion poll: 71% Afghans favour India, 2% Pakistan[/SIZE]
DNA ^ | 20 Jan 2010
Posted on Tuesday, January 26, 2010 12:18:18 PM by cold start
New Delhi: Reflecting tremendous goodwill of its soft power in Afghanistan, India has been voted as the most favoured country, getting 71% votes in an opinion poll there while Pakistan was viewed favourably by a meagre 2% of the people.
The poll, commissioned by BBC, American Broadcasting Company (ABC) and German Broadcasting company ARD, showed India was way ahead of all other countries, including the US which is leading the war against terror there.
In the poll conducted between December 11 and 23 last year, Germany polled 59% and stood at second spot. The US came third with 51% polls, Iran followed with 50% votes and Britain got 39%.
Pakistan managed only two per cent votes, according to the survey conduced by Kabul-based Afghan Centre for Socio-Economic Opinion Research (ACSOR).
The vote in favour of India is seen as a reflection of the goodwill because of the developmental activities undertaken by it on a large scale in the war-ravaged country.
India has developmental assistance programmes to the tune of US$ 1.3 billion that covers road construction, healthcare, power sector and across-the-board capacity building in Afghanistan.
The results echoed the findings of a gallup survey of Afghanistan released in November in which 56% of the people voted for India when asked which group or country played the best role in resolving the situation in Afghanistan.
In fact, India surpassed even the UN and NATO by a per cent in this regard.

Opinion Poll in Afganistan, hahaha....joke of the century....haha....

I don't know how to upload a video, so I am pasting the link of a documentary that was made by BBC on the history of Afghanistan, watch it after 40 minutes, you willl see the credulous and reclusive people of Afghanistan who live in rural areas of Afghanistan, they even don't know that their country is at war....If you ask rural areas of Afghanistan, they will tell you that it is rule of Taliban and majority of Afghan people live in rural areas.... I don't say that they love Pakistan, they might hate Pakistan but their hatred towards India is far more....If this survey has been conducted, it might be from urban centres of Afghanistan that does not represent all Afghan population.....So far as their hatred towards Pakistan is, that is very very much in Northern Part of Afghanistan, Northern Alliance has very much leaning towards India and they for very right reasons hate Pakistan, Northern Alliance are either Tajik or Hazara (Shia) community that were suppressed by Taliban (almost all of them are Pashtoons) and Majority of Afghan population is comprised of Pashtoons, in past Pashtoons had been playing in the hands of Pakistani ISI and I don't think that they had any good will for India...

Anyway, you have got the proof, Poll in Afghanistan...hahahaha.....I accept your argument, but time will tell you who was right....

In Pakistan, recently, Ghulam Ahmed Bilour a leader of ANP made a statement that there should be a confederation of Pakistan, Afghanistan and India, I may have disagreements with ANP as far as its manifesto is concerned but I do support this stance of ANP and wish that it should not be hindered by plausiblity Issues.

The link is hereunder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7cb3UXvrvU

 

[sadia_gul]

Re: *VETERAN* Indian journalist Sagarika Ghose on *INDIAN MUSLIMS*

Historically there has been no evidence that Afghans were involved in any Jihadi activities in India it has been mostly Pakistanis.

Nevertheless I would also like to see the issue resolved and I like the plan IK has outlined. Hope he becomes the leader and acts upon it.

Ayesh Jalal says, all Pathans are Afghans but all Afghans are not Pathans.....

Now re-consider your comments and go back to history, who invaded Kasmir in 1947-48.....How many of the militants who infilterate in Kashmir are Pathans....