Vande Mataram un-Islamic, BJP Furious

[desicad]

thats all hypcrasy why u sing vande mataran in schools every morning if its not ur national anthem i know technically its not but spiritually it is ur national anthem so typical chankyia mentality of deceit and lies i am not surprised at all

You are wrong again. It is the National Anthem every morning, I never sang Vande Mataram during my school mornings.

 

[hnuter555]

what school u went in ? all goverment schools we use to have Vande Mataram in mornings so pls dont lie again thanks

 

[sher_khan]

To all the indians who are saying that Vande Mataram is a NATIONAL song not an anthem:

Why do you have a NATIONAL song which makes minority religious citizens of your country refer to Hindu religious figures?

Don't you guys claim that India is a secular state? That's where lies the hypocrisy of secular india.

Again hollow arguments, arguing just for the sake of argument and bashing secularism.
Nobody expects anybody to sing the song if one doesn't want to. Only negligible few who may be want to get some political mileage raising up the issue. So just sit tight.

Talking about hollow arguments, just because you are defending a discriminating song for the sake of defence, it does not make it a justified national song.

I am not the one who designated this song an Indian "national song" status. Don't get upset at me just because my argument makes indian hypocrisy transparent. Talk to the people who designated the song a national status. You should direct your frustration towards them. Ask them why they chose a song with Hindu religious figures in it. Also, isn't this thakray guy very powerful in mumbai? Does he not hurt people who call mumbai bombay? Was he not elected in recent elections by the indian people? Does it not mean that he has public support behind him and his views reflect his supporters' views?

Lastly, no one is bashing secularism. We are simply exposing the non-existence of secularism in India, which it markets so zealously.

 

[desicad]

[quote="sher_khan":lufaclbm]To all the indians who are saying that Vande Mataram is a NATIONAL song not an anthem:

Why do you have a NATIONAL song which makes minority religious citizens of your country refer to Hindu religious figures?

Don't you guys claim that India is a secular state? That's where lies the hypocrisy of secular india.

Again hollow arguments, arguing just for the sake of argument and bashing secularism.
Nobody expects anybody to sing the song if one doesn't want to. Only negligible few who may be want to get some political mileage raising up the issue. So just sit tight.

Talking about hollow arguments, just because you are defending a discriminating song for the sake of defence, it does not make it a justified national song.

I am not the one who designated this song an Indian "national song" status. Don't get upset at me just because my argument makes indian hypocrisy transparent. Talk to the people who designated the song a national status. You should direct your frustration towards them. Ask them why they chose a song with Hindu religious figures in it. Also, isn't this thakray guy very powerful in mumbai? Does he not hurt people who call mumbai bombay? Was he not elected in recent elections by the indian people? Does it not mean that he has public support behind him and his views reflect his supporters' views?

Lastly, no one is bashing secularism. We are simply exposing the non-existence of secularism in India, which it markets so zealously.[/quote:lufaclbm]
Firstly, I am neither upset with you nor am frustated, so no question of directing towards anybody. And second there is no point in arguing with someone who is tremendously jealous of Indian secularism. Good luck.

 

[sher_khan]

Firstly, I am neither upset with you nor am frustated, so no question of directing towards anybody. And second there is no point in arguing with someone who is tremendously jealous of Indian secularism. Good luck.

What ever is convenient for you.

BTW how can I be jealous of indian secularism if it does not exist? Perhaps it is because of the non-existence of secularism in india that you can't effectively defend it.
Ironically your choice of discontinuing the argument pertaining to the controversial existence of indian secularism and claiming that people are jealous of it, clearly depicts your frustration.

 

[desicad]

Firstly, I am neither upset with you nor am frustated, so no question of directing towards anybody. And second there is no point in arguing with someone who is tremendously jealous of Indian secularism. Good luck.

What ever is convenient for you.

BTW how can I be jealous of indian secularism if it does not exist? Perhaps it is because of the non-existence of secularism in india that you can't effectively defend it.
Ironically your choice of discontinuing the argument pertaining to the controversial existence of indian secularism and claiming that people are jealous of it, clearly depicts your frustration.

Oh I got it now. You are not jealous of secularism, but jealousy is because India is effectively able to market it.
And why will I be frustated based on views of a Pakistani? If a Indian Muslim or for that matter any other minority group tells me then its a different matter. Good luck again.

 

[sher_khan]

Firstly, I am neither upset with you nor am frustated, so no question of directing towards anybody. And second there is no point in arguing with someone who is tremendously jealous of Indian secularism. Good luck.

What ever is convenient for you.

BTW how can I be jealous of indian secularism if it does not exist? Perhaps it is because of the non-existence of secularism in india that you can't effectively defend it.
Ironically your choice of discontinuing the argument pertaining to the controversial existence of indian secularism and claiming that people are jealous of it, clearly depicts your frustration.

Oh I got it now. You are not jealous of secularism, but jealousy is because India is effectively able to market it.
And why will I be frustated based on views of a Pakistani? If a Indian Muslim or for that matter any other minority group tells me then its a different matter. Good luck again.

Actually, I am not jealous of India falsely marketing its non-existing secularism. Instead I am appalled by this indian lie. Specially when the indian (non-existing) secularism is used as an instrument to measure the India's fictional superiority over Pakistan and to justify the argument that Pakistan was not needed . There is no element of jealousy.

Also, on the other note of not taking into consideration my views. You don't have to rely on my views. You can rely on the views of Indian muslims who just informed you "secular" Indians that they rather not sing your national song because of the religious conflicts, because the song includes mentions of Hindu religious figures.

Furthermore, here is a link to Sachar Commission Report. The report details of your country's "secular" attitude towards the muslims ( a minority). Celebrate your country's fictional secularism with a bang:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/17193325/Sachar-Committee-Report

 

[desicad]

Actually, I am not jealous of India falsely marketing its non-existing secularism. Instead I am appalled by this indian lie. Specially when the indian (non-existing) secularism is used as an instrument to measure the India's fictional superiority over Pakistan and to justify the argument that Pakistan was not needed . There is no element of jealousy.

Creation of Pakistan is a history, 62 years now. Nobody is interested in talking wheather it was needed or not. May be your guilty feeling and complex is biting you and itching you to raise this issue.

Also, on the other note of not taking into consideration my views. You don't have to rely on my views. You can rely on the views of Indian muslims who just informed you "secular" Indians that they rather not sing your national song because of the religious conflicts, because the song includes mentions of Hindu religious figures.

You are saying as if every single Indian muslim has problem with the song. For every cleric or moulvi and his followers who issue fatwas there are countless others who are happy to sing it and many whom I personally know. Like politicians these clerics also play to their galleries. FYI just because India is secular, Vandematarm is not the National Anthem and not mandatory for those who have issue with it.

Furthermore, here is a link to Sachar Commission Report. The report details of your country's "secular" attitude towards the muslims ( a minority). Celebrate your country's fictional secularism with a bang:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17193325/Sachar-Committee-Report

I am aware of this Sanchar commission report and it is a public document. You are waving it as if Pakistan prepared and gave it to India. There are many such reports on SC/ST, dalits, tribals and other weaker sections of the society. So? It is a positive sign that govt. and other agencies are ready to acknowledge and tackle the issues and challanges of these people. And you are using this report to prove India is not secular? You must be kidding, you need to grow up, seriously.

 

[jimpack]

@ desicad

Please do not waste your time debating with them. No use.

 

[Pakistani Lion]

@ desicad

Please do not waste your time debating with them. No use.

.....My dear if you feel your time's being wasted why did you go through the trouble of taking membership of a Pakistani forum - or is it that once you lot lose the argument you feel that your time's being wasted????? :? :? :?

Sher Khan rocks!!!

 

[Pakistani Lion]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpxUAW6dhGg[/video]

There you go, Muslims who know Hinduism better then Hindus themselves - hope this helps and will encourage you to study your religion in more detail instead of blowing hot air!!!!

 

[sher_khan]

Actually, I am not jealous of India falsely marketing its non-existing secularism. Instead I am appalled by this indian lie. Specially when the indian (non-existing) secularism is used as an instrument to measure the India's fictional superiority over Pakistan and to justify the argument that Pakistan was not needed . There is no element of jealousy.

Creation of Pakistan is a history, 62 years now. Nobody is interested in talking wheather it was needed or not. May be your guilty feeling and complex is biting you and itching you to raise this issue.

Watch the following clip and learn. Try to bring logic to your argument. Use facts not sentiments. Here is waht your intellectual and ex-minister thinks of how are muslims treated in india due to partition:

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T50sHtbN9y0[/video]

Also, on the other note of not taking into consideration my views. You don't have to rely on my views. You can rely on the views of Indian muslims who just informed you "secular" Indians that they rather not sing your national song because of the religious conflicts, because the song includes mentions of Hindu religious figures.

You are saying as if every single Indian muslim has problem with the song. For every cleric or moulvi and his followers who issue fatwas there are countless others who are happy to sing it and many whom I personally know. Like politicians these clerics also play to their galleries. FYI just because India is secular, Vandematarm is not the National Anthem and not mandatory for those who have issue with it.

I am sure that there are many muslims who drink alcohol, eat pork, take bribes and perform other activities that are not allowed in Islam. However, it does not make their actions islamic. Muslims who are prepared to sing the song are free to do what ever they want to do. However they can't deny the fact that singing the songs which clearly mention the religious figures of other religions are not allowed in Islam. A NATIONAL song represents the nation. Why put the references of only one religion's figures n the national song? Are the religious minorities not part of the whole nation? Could you tell me a country which is SECULAR in nature and has a national song with religious references? That will end the debate.

[quote:15yv52yz]
Furthermore, here is a link to Sachar Commission Report. The report details of your country's "secular" attitude towards the muslims ( a minority). Celebrate your country's fictional secularism with a bang:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17193325/Sachar-Committee-Report

I am aware of this Sanchar commission report and it is a public document. You are waving it as if Pakistan prepared and gave it to India. There are many such reports on SC/ST, dalits, tribals and other weaker sections of the society. So? It is a positive sign that govt. and other agencies are ready to acknowledge and tackle the issues and challanges of these people. And you are using this report to prove India is not secular? You must be kidding, you need to grow up, seriously.

Indeed there are secular people in India but they are dominated by the non-seculars.

I need to grow up? What steps have been taken by the government that were recommended by the report/s? It seems that Adivasis are ready to create bigger problems for you government in future. Before you give an advice to people to grow up, please take into consideration the following facts:

1. Religious minorities targeted by "secular" India:
- During the govenment of congress - Sikh massacred by the congress party subsequent to Indra's assassination. Numbers of Sikh casualties in thousands. Sikh community of india goes through a mass immigration and claims refugee status in Canada and Australia. Any subsequent significant arrests of the perpetrators? No.

- During the Muslims massacred in Gujarat. Numbers of Muslim casualties casualties in thousands. Any subsequent significant arrests of the perpetrators? No. Actually the case is still going on while there are video clips of perpetrators claiming the crime and exposing a CM's (Modi) involvement, who was elected by the people. After all these reports did the people of Gujarat showed disgust towards this Modi guy and did not re-elect him? No actually they re-elected him.

- Any massacres in India which claimed lives of thousands of hindus with in a day or two? None.

2. Religious minorities' holy places got desecrated:
- Sikh - Operation Blue Star - conducted by the army - obviously no arrests were expected.
- Muslims - Babari Mosque - desecrated by hindu extremists and political leaders (BJP) - No arrests were made.

3. Any symbolic and significant Hindu locations ever desecrated? No.

4. Are there any big political parties of religious nature? BJP, which has governed India, promotes HINDUVTA

5. Are there any seculars in India? Yes but they are outnumbered by the non-secular people. 40% of the country is below the international poverty line. illiterate and the poor are easy to exploit and usually lean towards spiritual support because they don't have anything tangible to lean against.

I hope you grew up a little while reading the lines stated above. You may be a patriotic Indian but you are not a good fellow citizen to all the minorities of India who are not being treated equally because of their religious believes.





[/quote:15yv52yz]

 

[desicad]

Jaswant Singh is a politician and not an intellectual by any standards. Ayesha Jalal who wrote a book on almost the same topic is definitely an intellectual. The views he expressed are reflected in the Sanchar commission report.
A National Anthem and not the song represents the Nation. That is the reason the song is not mandatory, but the National Anthem is. Don't know which other country has National song also, so your argument does not make sense.
Govt. does not have a magic wand (wish it had) to solve the problems in one day. Hope the work is in progress and we will see the results in the near future. Not all adivasis have taken up arms, there are some extremists among them and the govt. is working on that front on how to approach this problem.
I am not going to defend the Sikh and the Muslim massacare as they are indefensible even if there was a trigger. There have been many arrests including some ministers, but no case as yet against Modi for his involvement. As of now he is just guilty of slow action. He was mainly elected for his non corrupt image and is one of the best performing chief ministers.
Operation Bluestar was carried out to flush out the terrorist and place of worship should not be used to stack up arms as was the case in Lal Masjid.
Don't need any certificate from you about patriotism or for that matter anything else.
It seems that you are fond of posting videos to prove your point, here are few to put you in place.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS1kPN0KfU4[/video]
Maulana Madani is the one who favours fatwa against Vandemataram, but believes in Indian secularism and claims support of 90% Indians.
Outright rejection of concept of universal muslim brotherhood and a big slap on the face of pakistanis who shed crocodile tears.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NJxM5tRlOs[/video] [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfZVxa6Rsk0[/video]

You better look in the mirror first and then think of pointing finger at others.
I rest my case.

 

[Pakistani Lion]

Its easy enough posting videos of people who are part of the establishment and will be biased anyway - I believe Javed Akhter is Shabana's husband isn't he, so that makes him a let me guess hypocrite!!! Also where is Musharraf's reply to this idiot who thinks that 90% of the Indian Civil Society supports Muslim's rights....

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jetfWliiOVg[/video]

 

[Nepali Pandit]

Its easy enough posting videos of people who are part of the establishment and will be biased anyway - I believe Javed Akhter is Shabana's husband isn't he, so that makes him a let me guess hypocrite!!! Also where is Musharraf's reply to this idiot who thinks that 90% of the Indian Civil Society supports Muslim's rights....

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jetfWliiOVg[/video]

Since when did Javed Akhtar became establishment? I think Shobna Ajmi got too carried away in this interview, but she is in that position today because most Hindus like her irrespective of her faith. In some places It is hard to find good places for Muslims in India because some people consider them as trouble makers. This is illegal by the way.
Let me tell you about the muslims in my country:
I don't live in India but even in my work when I went for interview they indirectly inquired if i was a Muslim. I am strongly against categorizing people but this kind of racism exists. If you watch news whenever there is car theft, shooting, raping and killing media always says, people of "middle eastern look". 80 % of prison population in this country is Muslim. They are also consider as freeloaders that is they have large number of children, wife would generally not work. They all live in government grant in council houses.

 

[taul]

If you watch news whenever there is car theft, shooting, raping and killing media always says, people of "middle eastern look". 80 % of prison population in this country is Muslim. They are also consider as freeloaders that is they have large number of children, wife would generally not work. They all live in government grant in council houses.

--Which news channel you look up for such a fancy report :roll: ..and which Non-muslim country has 80% :shock: prisoners as muslims?




--Very nice description by Dr.Zakir Naik,i believe most ordinary indians would not even know the basic details of their own religion,but rather get carried away by unwanted fervor :roll: in pursuit of a non specific matter :D

 

[Pakistani Lion]

Hey taul welcome back buddy, good reply!!!

 

[sher_khan]

Jaswant Singh is a politician and not an intellectual by any standards. Ayesha Jalal who wrote a book on almost the same topic is definitely an intellectual. The views he expressed are reflected in the Sanchar commission report.

Mr. Singh is rational rather than emotional. As evident from his recent book which caused controversies and triggered his discharge from his political party. That qualifies him as an intellectual.

A National Anthem and not the song represents the Nation. That is the reason the song is not mandatory, but the National Anthem is. Don't know which other country has National song also, so your argument does not make sense.

Google national song. You will find no national song of a secular country, e.g. Britian, which makes specific references to religious figures. There may be a mention of God but not the figures that could be controversial to other religions. God is accepted by every religion. One way or the other

Govt. does not have a magic wand (wish it had) to solve the problems in one day. Hope the work is in progress and we will see the results in the near future. Not all adivasis have taken up arms, there are some extremists among them and the govt. is working on that front on how to approach this problem.
I am not going to defend the Sikh and the Muslim massacare as they are indefensible even if there was a trigger. There have been many arrests including some ministers, but no case as yet against Modi for his involvement. As of now he is just guilty of slow action. He was mainly elected for his non corrupt image and is one of the best performing chief ministers.
Operation Bluestar was carried out to flush out the terrorist and place of worship should not be used to stack up arms as was the case in Lal Masjid.

I guess the jist of your argument is that India is working towards its weaknesses. I don' have a problem with that. But there are huge obstacles in its way, as evident from the Modi's scenario, who was elected by the people of India.
I do have a problem when people say that India is a secular state. Although you are not defending the massacres of sikhs and muslims but you just tried to justify it by using the term "trigger" for the circumstances that lead to the massacres of innocent people who had nothing to do with the incidents that preceded. Just because they belonged to the same religious community, from which the people killed Indra Gandhi or allegedly burned the train (note, your railway's ministry even reported that the fire could have been accidental) with hindu travellers, you can't justify the massacres because they had prior incidents triggering them.

There are states in india which have anti-conversion laws. Clearly, india is currently not a secular country. It may be working towards it but has not reached there. It has many obstacles in the way. Who knows how long it would take.

Also, please provide me the information of the people who were arrested for the Gujarat massacres and were "appropriately" punished. Specially the ministers. Show me the news articles.

Don't need any certificate from you about patriotism or for that matter anything else.

Indeed.

It seems that you are fond of posting videos to prove your point, here are few to put you in place.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS1kPN0KfU4[/video]

Maulana Madani is the one who favours fatwa against Vandemataram, but believes in Indian secularism and claims support of 90% Indians.

Here is Musharaf's complete response to Madani's statement. Do go through the whole video of of over 3 minutes. Musharaf outlines Madani's and India's hypocrisy in general. How come you did not post the whole video?

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8fFDJk6zwY[/video]


Outright rejection of concept of universal muslim brotherhood and a big slap on the face of pakistanis who shed crocodile tears.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NJxM5tRlOs[/video] [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfZVxa6Rsk0[/video]

Firstly, my fellow Pakistanis have already posted the video of Javed Akhtar's wife exposing the Indian attitude towards a well "celebrated" Muslim in a, mind you, Metropolitan city of Bombay. A city which is considered one of he most secular and educated cities of India. Hence Javed Akhtar's comments are in direct contradiction of his wife's (a muslim) experience. You can only imagine what happens to average Muslims in small towns and cities. In any event, I can understand him defending India. He is a patriotic Indian. There are a million of things that I can disagree with Javd Aktar's comments. Why don't you point out, which comments/unsupported opinions of his impressed you and then I can respond. It is transparent that the interviewer is very friendly with him. I have never seen this anchor before. Top anchors of Pakistan belong to other channels. It would have been interesting if Mr. akhtar was a guest of Talat Hussain, Kamran Khan, Kashif Abbasi, HAmid Mir, Shahid Masood or Javed Chaudry.

You better look in the mirror first and then think of pointing finger at others.
I rest my case.

If by the above statement you are trying to say that there are religious inclinations in Pakistan then my response is as follows:
Pakistan never claimed, neither is claiming, nor ever will claim to be a non-religious state. Unlike, India which beats the drums of being a secular state and abuses its religious minorities.

 

[sher_khan]

="Nepali Pandit

Let me tell you about the muslims in my country:
I don't live in India but even in my work when I went for interview they indirectly inquired if i was a Muslim. I am strongly against categorizing people but this kind of racism exists. If you watch news whenever there is car theft, shooting, raping and killing media always says, people of "middle eastern look". 80 % of prison population in this country is Muslim. They are also consider as freeloaders that is they have large number of children, wife would generally not work. They all live in government grant in council houses.

Are you living in some middle eastern muslim country? That's the only way our figures will work. Please provide the support of your figures.

Also, I reside in Canada. I personally know families which are huge and enjoy the government grants. They are not muslims.

 

[Pakistani Lion]

It would have been nice if desicad had found the courage to post Musharraf's reply himself (thanks for helping his feeble mind Sher Khan!!!) - atleast that would have given him some kind of credibility . Now I think all Indians are hypocrites.... there is no shame in accepting defeat rather than picking and choosing stuff from here and there out of context and posting nonsense without mentioning any source like our dear freind Nepali Pundit who says 80% of the inmate population in the country where he lives is Muslim unless he's been in and counted the numbers himself :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: