Taqlid - The Ahle Sunnah wal Jamah Concept

[modern fakir]

Oh please Mughal ...take this somewhere else ...Show me where Taqleed is not the basis for Quran and Sunnah...I have provided several references above here and you come back with a LAME VIDEO ...Please go through this video ..learn the points and then present them to me..

I cant be your teacher and learn from you at the same time ...Please Grow up ...Your behaving like a 2 year old !

Dear fakir, there is a lot of info about your islam on the internet but I do not like getting into that side of things. Following is just a sample with apologies of course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZVKWJKGSbU&feature=related

You can do that yourself when you have time.

regards and all the best

 

[modern fakir]

IS there no one left to respond ?? :)

 

[Malang009]

بسم اللہ الرحمٰن الرحیم

آپ نے بڑی آسانی سے میرے سوال کو ٹال دیا...بھائی یہ بات تو بعد میں آئیگی کے آیا آپ امام ابو حنیفہ رحمہ اللہ کی انکے سارے مسائل میں تقلید کرتے ہیں یا نہیں، یا یہ صرف دھوکہ ہے جو علما لوگوں کو دیتے ہیں...امام کے والد صاحب کے بارے میں آپ نے کہدیا کسی مجتہد کے مقلد ہونگے...یعنی آپکے پاس ایسا کوئی ریکارڈ موجود نہیں جس سے انکے اس خاص مجتہد کا نام معلوم ہوسکے جس کے نام سے وہ خود کو منسوب کرتے تھے؟؟ یعنی منصوری یا خالدی یا سفیانی وغیرہ؟؟؟؟

دراصل میرا مقصد یہ ثابت کرنا ہے کے اپنے آپ کو کسی خاص فقہ سے منسوب کرنے کی بدعت (تقلید شخصی کی حیثیت ) سے بعد میں رواج ہوئی...اور بقول شاہ ولی اللہ رحمہ اللہ یہ چار سوسال بعد رائج ہوئی اس سے پہلے تقلید شخصی کا کوئی وجود نہ تھا

اب رہا آپ کا سوال تو بھائی آپ کو تقلید کی تعریف ہی نہیں معلوم، قول امام کو بلا دلیل تسلیم کرلینا تقلید ہے اگر تو کوئی ان پڑھ، عالم کے پاس جا کر قرآن اور حدیث کے مطابق مسلہ پوچھے اور اسے یہ یقین ہوجاے کے مسلہ بتانے والا قرآن اور حدیث کے مطابق مسلہ بتا رہا ہے تو یہ تقلید نہ ہوئی یہ تو اتباع ہوئی اللہ اور اسکے رسول کی اور یہی مطلوب ہے ہر مسلمان سے، اگر پڑھا لکھا ہے تو خود دلائل کو پڑھ لے بہت اچھا ہے اور مزید ان پر تحقیق کر لے تو اور بہتر ہے یہ ساری چیزیں اسکے یقین میں اضافے کا سبب بنیں گی، بشرطیکہ کے نیت اللہ کی نبی صلی اللہ علیہ وسلّم کی اتباع ہو

کیا جو لوگ ان پڑھ ہیں وہی اپنے آپ کو حنفی مالکی وغیرہ کہتے ہیں ؟؟؟ نہیں ایسا ہر گز نہیں... وہ علما جو مدارس میں پڑھتے ہیں پڑھاتے ہیں کتابیں لکھتے ہیں ..جن کے بڑے بڑے نام ہیں، شیخ الحدیث ہیں، وہ بھی تو مقلد ہیں اور اپنے آپ کو بڑے فخر سے حنفی وغیرہ کہتے ہیں....انکے بارے میں کیا کہیگا؟؟؟ بات ظاہر ہے کے مسلہ ان پڑھ ہونے کا نہیں بلکے مسلہ ہے کے کسی خاص امام سے تعصب برتنے کا یا اس امام کو دوسرے امام سے برتر اور کامل سمجھنے کا اور دوسرے معنوں میں اس امام کو معصوم ماننے کا یعنی نبی کے درجے تک پونھچانے کا ہے!!!ھ

ہمارے نزدیک معصوم صرف اور صرف اللہ کے نبی صلی اللہ علیہ وسلّم کی ذات ہے، اس دنیا میں ہر ایک کی راے قبول بھی کی جا سکتی ہے اور رد بھی...صرف اللہ کے نبی کی ذات ایسے ہے جن کی بات رد نہیں کی جا سکتی

​

جناب میں نے آپ کے شوشے کو نہیں ٹالا بلکہ اسکا جواب دیا ہے ۔ میں نے اپنے جواب میں اس بارے میں کوی بات کی ہی نہیں تھی کہ ہم امام ابو حنیفہؒ کی تقلید کن مسائل میں کرتے ہیں یا کن میں نہیں کرتے ۔ لہذا آپ کا اس بات کو جواب میں گھسیٹنا چہ معنی دارد ؟؟؟ آپ اس بات کو بنیاد بنا رہے ہیں کہ شاہ ولی اللہ محدث دہلوی حنفی مقلد نے لکھ دیا کہ اپنے آپ کو چار فقہا کی طرف منسوب کرنے کی بدعت چار سو سال بعد شروع ہوئی جب کہ حقیقت یہ ہے کہ تقلید حضور اکرم صلیٰ اللہ علیہ وسلم کے زمانے سے جاری تھی ، لیکن عوام اپنے اپنے علاقے کے مجتہد کی تقلید کیا کرتے تھے ، بعد میں آہستہ آہستہ ساری امت چار فقہا کی تقلید پر اکھٹٰی ہو گئی شاہ ولی اللہ نے اس بات کو لکھا ہے نہ کہ تقلید کے شروع ہونے کو ۔ اور یہ چیز بدعت نہیں ہے

آپ نے کہا کہ مجھے تقلید کی تعریف معلوم نہیں ۔۔۔ یہ جھوٹ آپ نے کس بنیاد پر گھڑا ؟؟؟؟ کیا آپ نے مجھ سے تقلید کی تعریف پوچھی تھی جو میں صحیح جواب نہ دے سکا ؟؟؟؟ حلانکہ حقیقت یہ ہے کہ تقلید کی تعریف جو آپ نے لکھی ہے وہ خود نامکمل ہے اور اس بات کا ثبوت ہے کہ آپ اپنے مولویوں کی اندھی تقلید کرتے ہیں انہوں نے آپ کو آدھی بات بتائی آپ اسی کا شور مچاتے پھر رہے ہیں ۔ مکمل تعریف یوں ہے کہ کسی مجتہد کے علم و تقویٰ پر اعتماد کرتے ہوے اسکے قول کو دلیل مانگے بغیر تسلیم کرلینا ۔

دوسری بات یہ ہے کہ اتباع اور تقلید میں کوی فرق نہیں ہے

http://translate.google.com/

یہ آپ کی آسانی کے لیے گوگل ٹرانسلیٹر کا لنک دیا ہے اسمیں عربی میں لفظ اتباع لکھ کر انگریزی ترجمہ دیکھ لینا فالو ہی آئے گا ، اسکے علاوہ اتباع کا لفظ تباع سے نکلا ہے اور متبع بھی اسی سے ہے ۔ لہذا تقلید اور اتباع میں فرق کا شور مچانا سواے دھوکہ دہی کے اور کچھ بھی نہیں ۔ آپ نے کہا کہ اگر پڑھا لکھاہ ے تو خود دلائل کو پڑھ لے یہ سب سے جہالت کی بات ہے دلائل کو پڑھنے سمجھنے کے لیے سارے اصول وغیرہ کا علم ہونا ضروری ہے اگر دلیل کے طور پر کوی حدیث پیش کی گئی ہے تو انسان کو اصولِ حدیث پر مکمل مہارت ہونی چاہیے اور اصولِ حدیث پر مکمل مہارت علماء ہی حاصل کرتے ہیں لہذا عام آدمی کے بارے میں یہ کہنا عام لوگوں کو دھوکہ دینا ہے ۔
سب لوگ اپنے آپ کو فخر سے حنفی ، مالکی ، شافعی اور حنبلی کہتے ہیں الحمداللہ اور ہمیں فخر ہے لیکن اس سے نہ تو کسی دوسرے امام سے تعصب برتا جاتا ہے نہ ہی کامل سمجھا جاتا ہے کامل ذات صرف نبی کی ہوتی ہے اور ہم نبی کے علاوہ کسی دوسرے کو معصوم سمجھنے کو کفر سمجھتے ہیں لہذا کسی امام کو معصوم نہیں مانتے لیکن اپنے آپ کو اہلحدیث کہنے والے اپنے مولویوں کو ضرور معصوم مانتے ہیں کہ جو انکے مولوی انکو بتاتے ہیں اسکی اندھی تقلید کرتے ہیں اور وہی باتیں عوام میں پہنچاتے رہتے ہیں جیسے مقلدین کے اپنے آئمہ کو معصوم سمجھنے والا جھوٹ ۔

آخر میں درخواست ہے کہ بات کرنے کے سلیقہ میں یہ بھی شامل ہے کہ آپ بات کو موضوع سے ہٹنے نہ دیں اور آپ کا پیرا پڑھنے سے کوی بھی علم والا جان سکتا ہے کہ یہ کتنا موضوع سے متعلق تھا ۔ میں نے سوال پوچھا تھا کہ ایک جاہل شخص جسکو اردو بھی پڑھنی نہیں آتی وہ قرآن اور حدیث پر اور غیر منصوص علیہا اور منصوصہ متعارض فیہا مسائل پر بغیر کسی مجتہد کے کیسے عمل کرے گا ؟؟؟ اسکا جواب ابھی تک نہیں ملا ۔ پہلے میرے سوال کا جواب دیں پھرا ٓگے کوی اور بات کریں ​

 

[Malang009]

Jo jahil hai usay chahya k wo kisi alim say quran o hadeeth ki roshni main masla pochay aur us per amal karay yeh taqleed nahi kehlati

جس کسی نے یہ کتاب لکھی آپ نے آنکھیں بند کر کے اس کو مان لیا بلکہ دوسروں کو بھی دلیل کے طور پر پیش کرتے رہے ۔ اس سے بڑی اندھی تقلید اور کیا ہو گی ؟؟؟ پہلے تو آپ یہ بتائیں کہ خود تو آپ شر القرون کے مولوی کی تقلید کر رہے ہیں اور ہمیں خیر القرون کے مجتہد کی تقلید سے روکتے ہیں کیا یہ دوغلہ پن نہیں ؟؟؟​

 

[modern fakir]

Thanks malang009 for proving the point !

 

[onlykami]

:D malan baba g taqleed tu tb hogi jb us molvi nay apni aqal say koi baat kahi ho us nay jo b likha us ka proof b likha agar yaqeen na aai tu phr daikh lain

جس کسی نے یہ کتاب لکھی آپ نے آنکھیں بند کر کے اس کو مان لیا بلکہ دوسروں کو بھی دلیل کے طور پر پیش کرتے رہے ۔ اس سے بڑی اندھی تقلید اور کیا ہو گی ؟؟؟ پہلے تو آپ یہ بتائیں کہ خود تو آپ شر القرون کے مولوی کی تقلید کر رہے ہیں اور ہمیں خیر القرون کے مجتہد کی تقلید سے روکتے ہیں کیا یہ دوغلہ پن نہیں ؟؟؟​

 

[onlykami]

Please take some time and read ahadeeth book s so you know what references are. ahadeeth books are not your islamiat book that you refere some page number to other. page number reference in ahadeeth are never been used it only used by the person who do not want others to follow that reference so atleast think about it

Dude !.... I seriously think you need some English Classes !!!

I said if you cant locate the Hadith based on the references i provide then thats NOT MY PROBLEM. ..! .. if you are incompetent why am i to pick up ur slack.. ???

Go get an education in reading and locating hadith..Their are several proper places in Pakistan and all over the world and they will teach you all about HADITH and how to find those references

I dont have time for people like you ...who come up here to stir mischief ! :)

 

[Malang009]

:D malan baba g taqleed tu tb hogi jb us molvi nay apni aqal say koi baat kahi ho us nay jo b likha us ka proof b likha agar yaqeen na aai tu phr daikh lain

یہ ہی آپ لوگوں کی کم فہمی ہے مجتہدین نے جہاں اپنے مسائل بیان کیے ہیں انکے دلائل بھی دیے ہیں ، چونکہ عام عوام دلائل کو سمجھنے کی اہلیت نہیں رکھتی اسی لیے انکے لیے الگ سے کتابیں لکھی ہیں ورنہ اعلاء السنن جیسی کتابیں بھی موجود ہیں جن میں دلائل کے انبار ہیں ۔ باقی رہی عقل کی بات تو میرا سوال ابھی تک موجود ہے جسکا جواب نہیں دیا گیا کہ غیر منصوص علیھا اور منصوصہ متعارض فہیا مسائل کو عام شخص بغیر مجتہد کیسے سمجھے گا ۔ باقی رہی آپ کے مولوی کی بات تو اس نے حوالے دے دیے آپ نے کتنوں کو چیک کیا ہے کہ وہ صحیح ہیں ، مکمل ہیں اور حوالے پورا پورا بیان کیا گیا ہے اور کہیں خیانت نہیں کی گئی ؟؟؟ ​

 

[umairel]

http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/madhhabk1.htm

This was a speech of an scholar who accepted Islam from christianinty, research in islamic issues, adopted Shafai fiqh.

 

[Pakistani1947]

Further Explanation on Surah Nisa - Verse 83

"And when there comes to them a matter concerning (public) safety or fear, they relay it. If they had only referred it to the Messenger and to those of authority (Amr), those who can investigate and extract (information) among them would know
(the rumor's validity)...." (Surah Al-Nisaa: 83)

The background to this verse is that the hypocrites of Madinah would spread rumors regarding war and peace. Simple-minded Muslims would believe these rumors and exacerbate the situation, creating an atmosphere of insecurity and panic in the city.
The verse quoted above prevented Muslims from taking this approach and advised them to refer news of war and peace to those of Amr and not to spread rumors. Thus, capable individuals investigating the rumors would be able to reach the truth of the issue and inform others concerned. The role of the lay person was not to take any action except to refer such rumors and reports to those of Amr.

Although this verse was revealed for a specific reason - it is very well established in the principles of Tafseer and jurisprudence that in extracting rules and laws from specific circumstances of revelation, the specific details gives way to the general meaning of the text - such a general principle is contained in the verse quoted above. The principle is that: Those who do not possess the tools of investigation should refer to those who can. This is precisely Taqleed.....

Modern Fakir, The "shaan-e-Nazool" (شان نزول) of the above verses is mentioned by Hazrat Umer (رَّضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ) and recorded in Sahih Muslim (click here to view the complete Hadeeth)

'Umar b. al-Khattab (Allah be pleased with him) reported: When Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) kept himself away from his wives, I entered the mosque, and found people striking the ground with pebblesand saying: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) has divorced his wives, and that was before they were commanded to observe seclusion 'Umar said to himself: I must find this (actual position) today. ……………………………………………
I said: Messenger of Allah, have you divorced them? He said: No. I said: Messenger of Allah, I entered the mosque and found the Muslims playing with pebbles (absorbed in thought) and saying: Allah's Messenger has divorced his wives. Should I get down and inform there that you have not divorced them? He said: Yes, if you so like. And I went on talking to him until I (found) the signs of anger disappeared on his face and (his seriousness was changed to a happy mood and as a result thereof) his face had the natural tranquillity upon it and he laughed and his teeth were the most charming (among the teeth) of all people. Then Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) climbed down and I also climbed down and catching hold of the wood of the palm-tree and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came down (with such ease) as if he was walking on the ground, not touching anything with his hand (to get support). I said: Messenger of Allah, you remained in your apartment for twenty-nine days. He said: (At times) the month consists of twenty-nine days. I stood at the door of the mosque and I called out at the top of my voice: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) has not divorced his wives (and it was on this occasion that this) verse was revealed:" And if any matter pertaining to peace or alarm comes within their ken, they broadcast it; whereas, if they would refer it to the Apostle and those who have been entrusted with authority amongst them, those of them who are engaged in obtaining intelligence would indeed know (what to do with) it" (iv 83). And it was I who understood this matter, and Allah revealed the verse pertaining to option (given to the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him in regard to the retaining or divorcing of his wives). (Sahih Muslim, Book #009, Hadith #3507)

As far as asking a scholar about a religious matter, there is no prohibition in Islam. One can always ask a scholar if he/she does not know about a religious matter. If somebody start blind following that scholar it would be termed as "Taqleed" but if someone ask the scholar for the evidence (backing of Quraan and Hadeeth) then it would not be "Taqleed" as the person is not blind following the scholar but is following the evidence from Quraan and Hadeeth.

 

[modern fakir]

OK and your Point Being ?? ..Did you miss the rest of the reference's i gave on purpose ?? (bigsmile)

http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/madhhabk1.htm

This was a speech of an scholar who accepted Islam from christianinty, research in islamic issues, adopted Shafai fiqh.

 

[modern fakir]

Pakistan1947 ...How spineless can you get ?? (bigsmile) Do you have any sense of MORALITY (ethics, goodness) left in you. You come up here crying the dog about peers and display your complete disregard for the Valid religious authorities of Islam through the vile rant that you unleash. But the sad part is, nothing that you say could be taken as truth.

In an effort to prove your FALSE Beliefs ..you jump from one conclusion to another ...My friend your not doing anyone of us a service. But rather a DISERVICE to ISlam !

You pasted this explanation on the first page of this post, Now when i have slapped the Truth on your face ..You comeback with another LAME and FAKE Explanation.

Dude, I dont care what you think about Taqlid ...I have given you Scholastic references and even References from the SAHABA .. if you follow the Quran and Sunnah then you heard what opinion Hazrat Ibn Abbas (RA) Held. The verse in Surah Nisa is referring you to derive a general meaning to the SITUATION .. The hadith you quoted is saying the same thing ...but now when i quote the quran you bring the hadith and present it like its contradictory - When its not ..Its saying the exact same thing !


Do you want us to read your earlier post or this new one ...or you may even comeback with a THIRD or FOURTH or FIFTH to prove YOUR OWN WRONG OPINIONS !

Lets bring it on ..let me see what you bring next (bigsmile)

Pakistani1947

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Re: Taqlid - The Ahle Sunnah wal Jamah Concept

Originally Posted by modern fakir
Also, in Sura Nisa:
"If they had referred it to the Messenger and to those of authority among them, then those of them whose task it is to find it out would have known the matter"
[Sura 4, verse 83]



Following is the complete translation of the verses of Quraan you are using in support of Taqleed:

وَإِذَا جَاءَهُمْ أَمْرٌ مِّنَ الْأَمْنِ أَوِ الْخَوْفِ أَذَاعُوا بِهِ ۖ وَلَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَىٰ أُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ ۗ وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لَاتَّبَعْتُمُ الشَّيْطَانَ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا
​

Yusuf Ali 83: When there comes to them some matter touching (Public) safety or fear, they divulge it. If they had only referred it to the Messenger, or to those charged with authority among them, the proper investigators would have Tested it from them (direct). Were it not for the Grace and Mercy of Allah unto you, all but a few of you would have fallen into the clutches of Satan.(Quraan 4:83)

اور جب ان کے پاس کوئی خبر امن یا ڈر کی پہنچتی ہے تو اسے مشہور کر دیتے ہیں اور اگر اسے رسول او راپنی جماعت کے ذمہ دار اصحاب تک پہنچاتے تو اس کی تحقیق کرتے جو ان میں تحقیق کرنے والے ہیں اوراگر تم پر الله کا فضل اوراس کی مہربانی نہ ہوتی تو البتہ تم شیطان کے پیچھے ہو لیتے سوائے چند لوگوں کے
​

The above verse has nothing to do with Taqleed. It is related to rumors spread by enemies to harm Muslim during the time of wars. During the period of excitement, rumors were on the air from many quarters. Sometimes baseless and exaggerated reports were received that caused alarm in Madinah and its outskirts. Then some cunning enemy would send news that all was quiet in the enemy camp, merely to conceal some impending danger and to keep the Muslims off their guard. Only those people who loved excitement, took keen interest in such rumors; who did not take the conflict between Islam and un-Islam to be a serious matter; and who did not realize the grave consequences of indulging in such baseless rumors. Whenever they heard any rumor, they would spread it from place to place, without considering the great harm their pastime was causing. In this verse, such people have been warned of the gravity of their offense and strictly admonished to refrain from spreading rumors. They have been told to report any news they heard to the responsible people and then keep silent about it.

Modern fakir, please have some "Khauf-e-Khuda" (خوف خدا) while posting anything to do with religion. Your post may be viewed by thousand of members and if you write something against the Islamic believes you may be answerable on the day of Judgment in front of Allah. These Peers you blind follow will not be able to save you on the day of judgment.​

​

Modern Fakir, The "shaan-e-Nazool" (شان نزول) of the above verses is mentioned by Hazrat Umer (رَّضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ) and recorded in Sahih Muslim (click here to view the complete Hadeeth)

'Umar b. al-Khattab (Allah be pleased with him) reported: When Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) kept himself away from his wives, I entered the mosque, and found people striking the ground with pebblesand saying: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) has divorced his wives, and that was before they were commanded to observe seclusion 'Umar said to himself: I must find this (actual position) today. ……………………………………………
I said: Messenger of Allah, have you divorced them? He said: No. I said: Messenger of Allah, I entered the mosque and found the Muslims playing with pebbles (absorbed in thought) and saying: Allah's Messenger has divorced his wives. Should I get down and inform there that you have not divorced them? He said: Yes, if you so like. And I went on talking to him until I (found) the signs of anger disappeared on his face and (his seriousness was changed to a happy mood and as a result thereof) his face had the natural tranquillity upon it and he laughed and his teeth were the most charming (among the teeth) of all people. Then Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) climbed down and I also climbed down and catching hold of the wood of the palm-tree and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came down (with such ease) as if he was walking on the ground, not touching anything with his hand (to get support). I said: Messenger of Allah, you remained in your apartment for twenty-nine days. He said: (At times) the month consists of twenty-nine days. I stood at the door of the mosque and I called out at the top of my voice: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) has not divorced his wives (and it was on this occasion that this) verse was revealed:" And if any matter pertaining to peace or alarm comes within their ken, they broadcast it; whereas, if they would refer it to the Apostle and those who have been entrusted with authority amongst them, those of them who are engaged in obtaining intelligence would indeed know (what to do with) it" (iv 83). And it was I who understood this matter, and Allah revealed the verse pertaining to option (given to the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him in regard to the retaining or divorcing of his wives). (Sahih Muslim, Book #009, Hadith #3507)

As far as asking a scholar about a religious matter, there is no prohibition in Islam. One can always ask a scholar if he/she does not know about a religious matter. If somebody start blind following that scholar it would be termed as "Taqleed" but if someone ask the scholar for the evidence (backing of Quraan and Hadeeth) then it would not be "Taqleed" as the person is not blind following the scholar but is following the evidence from Quraan and Hadeeth.

 

[Pakistani1947]

cرَّضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ

Pakistan1947 ...How spineless can you get ?? (bigsmile) Do you have any sense of MORALITY (ethics, goodness) left in you. You come up here crying the dog about peers and display your complete disregard for the Valid religious authorities of Islam through the vile rant that you unleash. But the sad part is, nothing that you say could be taken as truth.

In an effort to prove your FALSE Beliefs ..you jump from one conclusion to another ...My friend your not doing anyone of us a service. But rather a DISERVICE to ISlam !

You pasted this explanation on the first page of this post, Now when i have slapped the Truth on your face ..You comeback with another LAME and FAKE Explanation.

Dude, I dont care what you think about Taqlid ...I have given you Scholastic references and even References from the SAHABA .. if you follow the Quran and Sunnah then you heard what opinion Hazrat Ibn Abbas (RA) Held. The verse in Surah Nisa is referring you to derive a general meaning to the SITUATION .. The hadith you quoted is saying the same thing ...but now when i quote the quran you bring the hadith and present it like its contradictory - When its not ..Its saying the exact same thing !

I do not understand what is the problem with you. The Quraanic verse is itself self explanatory. It does not justify Taqleed "blind following" of ignorant peers: Read the verse again:

وَإِذَا جَاءَهُمْ أَمْرٌ مِّنَ الْأَمْنِ أَوِ الْخَوْفِ أَذَاعُوا بِهِ ۖ وَلَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَىٰ أُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ ۗ وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لَاتَّبَعْتُمُ الشَّيْطَانَ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا
​

Yusuf Ali 83: When there comes to them some matter touching (Public) safety or fear, they divulge it. If they had only referred it to the Messenger, or to those charged with authority among them, the proper investigators would have Tested it from them (direct). Were it not for the Grace and Mercy of Allah unto you, all but a few of you would have fallen into the clutches of Satan.(Quraan 4:83)

اور جب ان کے پاس کوئی خبر امن یا ڈر کی پہنچتی ہے تو اسے مشہور کر دیتے ہیں اور اگر اسے رسول او راپنی جماعت کے ذمہ دار اصحاب تک پہنچاتے تو اس کی تحقیق کرتے جو ان میں تحقیق کرنے والے ہیں اوراگر تم پر الله کا فضل اوراس کی مہربانی نہ ہوتی تو البتہ تم شیطان کے پیچھے ہو لیتے سوائے چند لوگوں کے
​

The above verse has nothing to do with Taqleed. It is related to rumors spread by enemies to harm Muslim during the time of wars. During the period of excitement, rumors were on the air from many quarters. Sometimes baseless and exaggerated reports were received that caused alarm in Madinah and its outskirts. Then some cunning enemy would send news that all was quiet in the enemy camp, merely to conceal some impending danger and to keep the Muslims off their guard. Only those people who loved excitement, took keen interest in such rumors; who did not take the conflict between Islam and un-Islam to be a serious matter; and who did not realize the grave consequences of indulging in such baseless rumors. Whenever they heard any rumor, they would spread it from place to place, without considering the great harm their pastime was causing. In this verse, such people have been warned of the gravity of their offense and strictly admonished to refrain from spreading rumors. They have been told to report any news they heard to the responsible people and then keep silent about it.

In support of my argument I later provided following authentic Hadeeth from Sahih Bukhari then you could not absorb it becuase it is going against the belives of your Peers.

'Umar b. al-Khattab (Allah be pleased with him) reported: When Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) kept himself away from his wives, I entered the mosque, and found people striking the ground with pebblesand saying: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) has divorced his wives, and that was before they were commanded to observe seclusion 'Umar said to himself: I must find this (actual position) today. ……………………………………………
I said: Messenger of Allah, have you divorced them? He said: No. I said: Messenger of Allah, I entered the mosque and found the Muslims playing with pebbles (absorbed in thought) and saying: Allah's Messenger has divorced his wives. Should I get down and inform there that you have not divorced them? He said: Yes, if you so like. And I went on talking to him until I (found) the signs of anger disappeared on his face and (his seriousness was changed to a happy mood and as a result thereof) his face had the natural tranquillity upon it and he laughed and his teeth were the most charming (among the teeth) of all people. Then Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) climbed down and I also climbed down and catching hold of the wood of the palm-tree and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came down (with such ease) as if he was walking on the ground, not touching anything with his hand (to get support). I said: Messenger of Allah, you remained in your apartment for twenty-nine days. He said: (At times) the month consists of twenty-nine days. I stood at the door of the mosque and I called out at the top of my voice: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) has not divorced his wives (and it was on this occasion that this) verse was revealed:" And if any matter pertaining to peace or alarm comes within their ken, they broadcast it; whereas, if they would refer it to the Apostle and those who have been entrusted with authority amongst them, those of them who are engaged in obtaining intelligence would indeed know (what to do with) it" (iv 83). And it was I who understood this matter, and Allah revealed the verse pertaining to option (given to the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him in regard to the retaining or divorcing of his wives). (Sahih Muslim, Book #009, Hadith #3507)

The verse of Quraan (4:83) and the Hadeeth (Sahih Muslim, Book #009, Hadith #3507) both are in agreement and are talking about the rumor spread by enemies to harm Muslims. Definitely the rumor about the divorce of our beloved Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) was spread by an enemy not a friend of Muslims. It is therefor Muslims are being ordered to investigate the rumor before spreading it further. This is what Umar b. al-Khattab (رَّضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ) did, he investigated to know the truth. Are you trying to prove that Umar (رَّضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ) did "taqleed" by investigating? No! He investigated and found the truth. Can you say that Umer (رَّضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ) did the "taqeed", accepted a religious scholar's opinion without asking evidence? No! not at all!

As far as asking a scholar about a religious matter, there is no prohibition in Islam. One can always ask a scholar if he/she does not know about a religious matter. If somebody start blind following that scholar it would be termed as "Taqleed" but if someone ask the scholar for the evidence (backing of Quraan and Hadeeth) then it would not be "Taqleed" as the person is not blind following the scholar but is following the evidence from Quraan and Hadeeth.

Allah knows best!
​

 

[modern fakir]

LOL ...(bigsmile) Dude, you seriously need a "Brain Checkup", you and your like minded bunch are suffering from a disease called najdiat !:)

I think your situation is called "Peer-ophobia" :) where when ever someone presents the real islam you jump back and use "peers" "shirk" "biddat" ...that all you ever come up to say !

IN essence you are BLINDLY following what YOU think is right ...But in essence it isnt !

You gave me a Quranic reference and I showed you waht Hazrat Ibn Abbas (RA) views were about that verse :)

Tell me DO YOU KNOW MORE ABOUT THE QURAN THAN HAZRAT IBN ABBAS (RA) ?:)

Answer me !

I have told you before ...Your Explanations dont mean a thing because YOU ARE NOTHING ... YOUR NOT EVEN THE WEAKEST Authority in Islam !

I think your wearing glasses with "Peer" written all over them ...thats why even authentic Hadith and Quranic Commentary are a peers words for you !

Their is a saying in Islam ..Im not sure if you have heard of it in najdi terms ..but whomsover doesnt have a Teacher in deen then his teacher or guide is

Shaitan :)

I must say ... i can see a very befitting example for this Hadith :)

So quit copying and pasting and answer me ...Do you know more about Quranic Verses than Hazrat Ibn Abbas (ra) ?

Pakistan1947 ...How spineless can you get ?? (bigsmile) Do you have any sense of MORALITY (ethics, goodness) left in you. You come up here crying the dog about peers and display your complete disregard for the Valid religious authorities of Islam through the vile rant that you unleash. But the sad part is, nothing that you say could be taken as truth.

In an effort to prove your FALSE Beliefs ..you jump from one conclusion to another ...My friend your not doing anyone of us a service. But rather a DISERVICE to ISlam !

You pasted this explanation on the first page of this post, Now when i have slapped the Truth on your face ..You comeback with another LAME and FAKE Explanation.

Dude, I dont care what you think about Taqlid ...I have given you Scholastic references and even References from the SAHABA .. if you follow the Quran and Sunnah then you heard what opinion Hazrat Ibn Abbas (RA) Held. The verse in Surah Nisa is referring you to derive a general meaning to the SITUATION .. The hadith you quoted is saying the same thing ...but now when i quote the quran you bring the hadith and present it like its contradictory - When its not ..Its saying the exact same thing !


Do you want us to read your earlier post or this new one ...or you may even comeback with a THIRD or FOURTH or FIFTH to prove YOUR OWN WRONG OPINIONS !

Lets bring it on ..let me see what you bring next (bigsmile)

Pakistani1947

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Re: Taqlid - The Ahle Sunnah wal Jamah Concept

Originally Posted by modern fakir
Also, in Sura Nisa:
"If they had referred it to the Messenger and to those of authority among them, then those of them whose task it is to find it out would have known the matter"
[Sura 4, verse 83]



Following is the complete translation of the verses of Quraan you are using in support of Taqleed:

وَإِذَا جَاءَهُمْ أَمْرٌ مِّنَ الْأَمْنِ أَوِ الْخَوْفِ أَذَاعُوا بِهِ ۖ وَلَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَىٰ أُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ ۗ وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لَاتَّبَعْتُمُ الشَّيْطَانَ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا
​

Yusuf Ali 83: When there comes to them some matter touching (Public) safety or fear, they divulge it. If they had only referred it to the Messenger, or to those charged with authority among them, the proper investigators would have Tested it from them (direct). Were it not for the Grace and Mercy of Allah unto you, all but a few of you would have fallen into the clutches of Satan.(Quraan 4:83)

اور جب ان کے پاس کوئی خبر امن یا ڈر کی پہنچتی ہے تو اسے مشہور کر دیتے ہیں اور اگر اسے رسول او راپنی جماعت کے ذمہ دار اصحاب تک پہنچاتے تو اس کی تحقیق کرتے جو ان میں تحقیق کرنے والے ہیں اوراگر تم پر الله کا فضل اوراس کی مہربانی نہ ہوتی تو البتہ تم شیطان کے پیچھے ہو لیتے سوائے چند لوگوں کے
​

The above verse has nothing to do with Taqleed. It is related to rumors spread by enemies to harm Muslim during the time of wars. During the period of excitement, rumors were on the air from many quarters. Sometimes baseless and exaggerated reports were received that caused alarm in Madinah and its outskirts. Then some cunning enemy would send news that all was quiet in the enemy camp, merely to conceal some impending danger and to keep the Muslims off their guard. Only those people who loved excitement, took keen interest in such rumors; who did not take the conflict between Islam and un-Islam to be a serious matter; and who did not realize the grave consequences of indulging in such baseless rumors. Whenever they heard any rumor, they would spread it from place to place, without considering the great harm their pastime was causing. In this verse, such people have been warned of the gravity of their offense and strictly admonished to refrain from spreading rumors. They have been told to report any news they heard to the responsible people and then keep silent about it.

Modern fakir, please have some "Khauf-e-Khuda" (خوف خدا) while posting anything to do with religion. Your post may be viewed by thousand of members and if you write something against the Islamic believes you may be answerable on the day of Judgment in front of Allah. These Peers you blind follow will not be able to save you on the day of judgment.​

​

 

[ahmadalikhan]

LOL ...(bigsmile) Dude, you seriously need a "Brain Checkup", you and your like minded bunch are suffering from a disease called najdiat !:)

I think your situation is called "Peer-ophobia" :) where when ever someone presents the real islam you jump back and use "peers" "shirk" "biddat" ...that all you ever come up to say !

IN essence you are BLINDLY following what YOU think is right ...But in essence it isnt !

You gave me a Quranic reference and I showed you waht Hazrat Ibn Abbas (RA) views were about that verse :)

Tell me DO YOU KNOW MORE ABOUT THE QURAN THAN HAZRAT IBN ABBAS (RA) ?:)

Answer me !

I have told you before ...Your Explanations dont mean a thing because YOU ARE NOTHING ... YOUR NOT EVEN THE WEAKEST Authority in Islam !

I think your wearing glasses with "Peer" written all over them ...thats why even authentic Hadith and Quranic Commentary are a peers words for you !

Their is a saying in Islam ..Im not sure if you have heard of it in najdi terms ..but whomsover doesnt have a Teacher in deen then his teacher or guide is

Shaitan :)

I must say ... i can see a very befitting example for this Hadith :)

So quit copying and pasting and answer me ...Do you know more about Quranic Verses than Hazrat Ibn Abbas (ra) ?

You are right, they have peer phobia, they mix Jali peers with True Aulia Allah, and try to prove their point. Ignore them, these all New Firqas were created deliberately by British rulers to weaken Islam in Subcontinent.

 

[modern fakir]

People like Pakistan1947 spend their entire lives negating Truth with their self concocted beliefs which are the REAL BIDDAT..because no scholar before in 1400 years have come with such beliefs ..hence they are Biddate Syaee..worse kind of Biddat..Here I'm presenting a comprehensive writeup on Taqlid INCLUDINg Verse 83 of Surah Nisaa to show everyone the Truth PROVEN by ISLAMIC SCHOLARS ( or PEERS as Pakistan1947 has some kind of Peer-ophobia) ...lol lol ...hahaha
(bigsmile)(bigsmile)


Here Ive named some very well REPUTED SCHOLARS whose AUTHENTICITY is well known...and they have explained the matter amicabbly ...I can assure the public that Pakistan1947 will now run to counter all these verses but he CANT do Anything because the TRUTH IS ABUNDANT :) :)


Verse Number 1:
"O you who believe! Follow Allah; follow the Messenger and those of
authority (Amr) amongst you." (Surah Al-Nisaa: 59)

That of authority (Amr) has been explained by some as Muslim rulers while others have
viewed them as jurists. The latter view was the opinion of Abdullah ibn Abbas [6],
Mujahid, `Ataa ibn Abi Rabah, `Ataa ibn Saib, Hasan of Basra, Abu 'Aliyah and many
others (raa). After substantiating the proofs for this second view, Imam Razi gives preference
to it and writes:
"So taking those of Amr to mean scholars is more appropriate." [7]

Imam Abu Bakr Jassas position is that there is no contradiction between the two
opinions. In fact, both are implied. Rulers should be followed in political matters and
jurists should be followed in legal issues. [8]

Imam Ibn Qayyim says that following the rulers is in effect following the scholars since
rulers are also required to follow scholars in legal issues. Hence, "...following rulers is
subject to following scholars." [9]

In short, this verse requires Muslims to follow Allah and His messenger and those
scholars and jurists who interpret the primary sources. The legal term for this following
is Taqleed. These remain the query regarding the remainder of the verse:
"And if you dispute, then refer it to Allah and the Messenger if you really do believe
in Allah and in the Last Day." (Surah Al-Nisaa:59)

Based on the second view of those of Amr (to mean jurists and scholars), the
address in the verse would be a separate command to the Mujtahids (the legal experts).
Justifying the interpretation of those with Amr as jurists, Imam Abu Bakr Jassas says:
"Allah's statement subsequently "if you dispute..." prove that those of Amr are indeed
jurists because He has ordered everyone else to follow them and then proceeded to say
that "if you dispute....." Hence Allah has ordered those of Amr to refer the disputed
issue to the Book of Allah and the traditions of the Prophet (saw). The Lay person is not a
person of knowledge, he is not of this caliber. The lay person would be unaware of how
to refer the disputed issue to the Book of Allah and to Sunnah and how their proofs would
apply to situations and events. Thus, it is established that the second command, is for the
scholars." [10]

The famous scholar of the Ahle Hadith, Shaykh Nawwab Siddiq Hasan Khan Sahib has
also acknowledged that the address in this statement ("If you dispute....") is to the
Mujtahids. He writes in his Tafseer: "It is apparent that this is a separate and a new
address directed towards the Mujtahids." [11]

It is not valid to conclude that those who are inept of Ijtehad should refer directly
to Qur'an and Sunnah in disputed issues. In reality, the command in the first part of the
verse (to follow those of Amr) is for those people who cannot extract any rules from the
Quran and Sunnah directly. They are required to follow the Quran and Sunnah by asking
those of Amr (meaning jurists) and following their guidance. The second statement is
exclusively for the Mujtahids that is to say disputed issues should be referred to the Quran
and Sunnah. The Mujtahids should exercise their skills of legal judgment and extract
rules. So there are in fact two commands, the first statement is to those who adopt
Taqleed and the second is directed to the Mujtahids to practice Ijtihad.

Verse Number 2:
"And when there comes to them a matter concerning (public) safety or fear, they
relay it. If they had only referred it to the Messenger and to those of authority
(Amr), those who can investigate and extract (information) among them would known
(the rumor's validity)...." (Surah Al-Nisaa: 83)


Pakistan1947 ...here read this Quranic Commentary from your own source of www.searchtruth.com
Lets see what your source says about this, the commentary gives an abridged version of verses from 73 - 100 ..and maududi was certainly NO PEER ...for your peer-ophobia ..lol:)

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]After this pre-requisite, they have been exhorted to make preparation for defense and to fight bravely for the cause of Islam, without showing any kind of cowardice or weakness. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]They have also been warned to be on their guard against hypocrites[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]. A line of demarcation has been drawn to distinguish the intentional shirkers from the helpless devotees. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]73 - 100[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] [/FONT]

here's the link http://www.searchtruth.com/tafsir/tafsir.php?chapter=4


See these are not peers these are scholars and Maududi is specially very close to your school of thought :).. Do you have any shame left in you now ???

The background to this verse is that the hypocrites of Madinah would spread
rumors regarding war and peace. Simple-minded Muslims would believe these rumors
and exacerbate the situation, creating an atmosphere of insecurity and panic in the city.
The verse quoted above prevented Muslims from taking this approach and advised them
to refer news of war and peace to those of Amr and not to spread rumors. Thus, capable
individuals investigating the rumors would be able to reach the truth of the issue and
inform others concerned. The role of the lay person was not to take any action except to
refer such rumors and reports to those of Amr.

Although this verse was revealed for a specific reason ( This shows guys like Pakistan1947 that the reason can be specific BUT THE MEANING = General = TAQLEED) - it is very well established
in the principles of Tafseer and jurisprudence that in extracting rules and laws from
specific circumstances of revelation, the specific details gives way to the general meaning
of the text - such a general principle is contained in the verse quoted above. The principle
is that: Those who do not possess the tools of investigation should refer to those who
can. This is precisely Taqleed.

Imam Razi writes concerning this verse:
"So it is established that Istinbaat [the legal process of extracting rules from the
Quran and Sunnah] is a proof. Analogy is either Istinbaat in itself or is included
in it. So analogy (Qiyas) should also be a proof. This verse denotes several rules.
The first is that there are some incidents and issues, which are not apparent from
(Divine) text. The second is that Istinbaat is a proof. The third is that a lay person
should follow scholars in the rules of events and in issues." [12]

Certain people have objected to this line of reasoning claiming that this verse is
peculiar to the state of war and should not be analogous to a state of peace. [13] A response
has already been furnished previously to this question that specific circumstances of the
verse extend to the general principles of the verse.

Imam Razi writes:
"Allah's statement: `And when there comes to them a matter....' Includes all affairs
relating to war and to any other incident relating to Islamic Law. This is because the
states of war and peace include very legal command. Hence there is nothing in the verse
which restricts the command to the state of war only." [14]

Imam Abu Bakr Jassas has also given a similar detailed answer to this question, he has
also refuted many doubts which relate to this question. [15] This is the reason why the
famous scholar of the Ahle Hadith, Nawwab Siddiq has allowed Qiyas (analogy) giving
his reasoning based on this verse:
"There is a hint in this verse to the permissibility of Qiyas and that there are some issues
of knowledge which can be perceived by intellectual deduction." [16]

If there is no guidance in the verse regarding the state of peace, how would substantiating
Qiyas from the verse be permissible?

Verse Number 3:
"....If a contingent from every expedition remained behind in order to
understand religion (Deen), and so that they could admonish their people when they
return to them (from war) that thus they (may learn to) guard themselves (against
evil)." (Surah Al-Taubah : 122)

The verse supports that not all Muslims should go out and become preoccupied in
jihad. There should be a group who devote themselves exclusively to learning and
understand Deen so that they can teach Islamic rules and regulations to those who are not able to dedicate
themselves to learning. This verse has ordered those who learn and
understand, to impart knowledge of Islamic law to others and it has also instructed others
to act upon the instructions to avoid the disobedience of Allah.

Imam Abu Bakr Jassas comments on this verse:
"So Allah has commanded people ( who do not learn ) to take heed of the scholars'
warnings and to act upon their advice." [17]

Verse Number 4:
"....So, if you do not know, ask those of remembrance." (Surah Al Nahl:43)

There is an academic principle in this verse, which is that those who are not
experts in a field should resort to seeking advice from those who are and act accordingly.
Shaykh Aloosi writes in the commentary of this verse:
"This verse has been used to prove that referring to scholars is necessary in cases where
one does not have knowledge of the issue in question. Imam Suyuti in his `Ikleel' writes
that this verse has been used to prove the point that the lay person may follow another
Imam [Make Taqleed of] in details of Islamic Law." [18]

The question often raised concerning this verse is that it pertains to a specific incident; the
polythesists denied the prophethood of Muhammad sallalahu alaihi wa sallam and they would
mockingly request as to why no angel was sent as a Messenger. In reply the following
verse was revealed:
"And We have not sent anyone before you except that they are men (humans)
to whom We revealed. So, if you do not know ask those of remembrance."
(Surah Nahl : 43)

Some commentators take '.... Those of remembrance (Dhikr)' to mean the
scholars of the People of Book. Others claim that it refers to the people of Book who
were present during the era of the Prophet. Few other scholars believe it is in reference to
the `Ahle Quran' [People of the Quran], the Muslims. Whatever the meaning of the verse
people were aware of the fact that Prophets were human beings and not angels.

It is claimed that in this context of the verse has no relation with Taqleed or Ijtihad. However,
Taqleed is implied in this verse. The command to '...ask those of remembrance' implies
the principle that `every unlearned person (or non-expert) should refer to the one who
knows.' The verse directs towards following qualified scholarship and a case of Taqleed
is clearly established from this verse. The salient principle
while interpreting the Quran and Sunnah is that `the consideration for the general
meaning of the text is not limited to its specific background incident.' Although the
specific background incident pertains to the polytheists of Makkah, the unrestricted
wording of the verse is still applicable and considered.

Khatib Al-Baghdadi writes:
"As for the question; who is allowed to follow (and make Taqleed)? It is the lay person
who does not have the tools to understand the laws of Islam. The lay person is allowed to
follow a scholar and act upon his advice. Allah says:
"So, if you do not know, ask those of remembrance."
After quoting this verse Khatib has narrated with his chain of narrators from Amr bin
Qais that in this verse, ".... Those of remembrance" are those of knowledge. [19]

Notes:
6 This explanation of Abdullah ibn Abbas has been narrated from Mu'awiyah ibn Salah from Ali ibn
Talha which is regarded as a very sound chain (Ibn Jarir Vol. 5 Page 88 c.f. Al-Itqaan: Number 80)
7 Tafseer Kabir: Vol 3, page 334
8 Ahkaamul Qura'n, by Jassas. Vol.2, page 256
9 'Ilaamul Muqi'een, by Ibn Qayyim. Vol.1, page 7
10 Ahkaamul Qura'n vol. 2, page 257
11 Tafseer of Fathul Bayan - vol. 2 , page 308, printed by Al-'Asimah, Cairo
12 Tafseer Kabir - vol. 3, page 272
13 Tahreeke Azadi Fikr, by Maulana Muhammed Ismail Salfi - page 31
14 Tafseer Kabir - vol. 3, page 273
15 Ahkamul Qura'n, by Jassas - vol. 2 page 63
16 Tafseer of Fathul Bayan, by Nawwab Siddiq vol. 2, page 33
17 Ahkamul Qura'n, by Jassas - vol. 2 page 262
18 Ruhul Ma'ani - vol. 14, page 148
19 Al-Faqih wal Mutafaqqih, by Khatib of Baghdad - vol. 2, page 68, printed by Darul Iftaa, Saudi Arabia, 1389 Hijri




(bigsmile)

 

[Jshah]

Brothers, if anyone is interested to develop his life according to the Islam, the best source is the Holy Qurand and The Sunnat e Rasool.

I believe Maulana Syed Abul Ala Maududi Rematullah Elaih, Maulana Hassan Al Bannah Shaheed Rematullah Elaih and Syed Qutub Shaheed Rehmatullah Alaih are the best source to help us understand the real and pure Islam. Please read Tafheem ul Quran, or Fi Zalalatain Quran, and numbers of books written by Hassan Al Bannah RE.

If you want to read authenticated Serate Rasool, please read Raheea Al Makhtoom written by Mubarakpuri (World Top Award Winner).

 

[Jshah]

Raheeq Al Makhtoom

 

[onlykami]

aaj tak koi kisi jahil say bahas main nahi jeet saka ........ agay tum khud behtar samajhtay so this is better to ignore jahil

IS there no one left to respond ?? :)

 

[modern fakir]

ahhh ...if it aint ONLY KAMI !!!(bigsmile) ...You know in urdu this means ONLY KAMI ( shortage ) ...not Ziadati (abundance)...by the way ..does this in any way refer to your sense of intelligence as well ...hahahahah lol (bigsmile)

Have fun dude !!(bigsmile)

aaj tak koi kisi jahil say bahas main nahi jeet saka ........ agay tum khud behtar samajhtay so this is better to ignore jahil