Should We Forget All That Military Has Done For The Country ????

canadian

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned: Shakespeare


DEADLY UTTERANCES

By: Ahsan Waheed
Shazoo is six years old. He lives in a small remote village at the foot of the Siachen Glacier in Northern Pakistan. For the last one year he has been going to a school and he has to walk a mile to get there. When he comes home he tells his parents and brothers and sisters to wash their hands, brush their teeth and learn from his books. The school is the first in that area and it is run by the military deployed to defend the Glacier. There are many other Shazoos attending schools in remote areas run by the military all over the country in the remotest areas as well as in villages and urban areasmany are free. Military hospitals provide medical treatment to all and are easily among the best in the country. The military runs a vast network of schools, colleges, hospitals and vocational training centers. Much criticized for its commercial activities the military employs hundreds of thousands of civilians and retired personnel and pays billions in taxes. The profits pay for hospitals, schools, parks and troops welfare. Military run enterprises whether farms or factories or real estate are among the best in the country.
Today the military is under fire and rightly so because there have been lapses and there is blowback from past policies. Does this mean we forget all that the military has done for the country and all that it is doing to defend it? The military is stoically bearing all that is thrown its way and our enemies who thought that the center of gravity in Pakistan was in the military are gloating and laughing as everyone lines up to add a stone to the many being heaped on a national institution that is struggling to cope with fast moving events. Pakistan is under attack and the military is defending it from Siachen to the sea and on the sea and in the air and fighting and dying in the western border area.
A lady known for her defense of the down trodden has used most unladylike language in a scathing attack on the military institution. She has chosen to do so when the institution is in a difficult position and not able to defend itself. What she has said has never ever been said by anyone about their armed forces. She chose to do this publicly. She has found supporters but there are also many who are castigating her and the language they are using is far from temperate. Why are people ganging up on an institution that is on the defensive? Who are these people? Whom do they want to please? Is it a hatred welling up? Is it driven by the tone set by the outspoken lady and others of her ilk? Does it have to do with the dire straits in which the country finds itself today? Will the destruction of an institution solve the problems that we face today? The liberals mouthing accusations need breath tests to determine if they are in a fit state to stand up and bellow on television. They need to look at themselves and their petty ambitions.
The country is under attack from within and without. To survive and overcome the odds against it the country needs to muster and orchestrate all its resources. Those creating divisions are not the well wishers of this country. This is perhaps the time to establish civilian supremacy in the country to end the ambiguity that surrounds decision making and leads to speculations about who is in charge and who calls the shots. This can be done if the political leadership takes charge, asserts itself, issues directives to the military, formulates policy and brings about governance that will create harmony, law and order and resolve issues. The defense budget can be scrutinized and the government can decide what kind of options it wants to pay for. The Defense Ministry can be made effective. The DCC can meet every week. Parliamentary committees can develop the capacity to exercise oversight So much can be done if we want to be constructive and not destructive, open minded and not vindictive. We need to be sure of what we are saying and doing and not speculate. By ill informed opinions and rabid outbursts and carefully cloaked barbs we may be doing our enemies a great service and our country a great disservice. Posing as wise owls ,screaming banshees and moderators of orchestrated debates some people are doing grave harm to the county. There is a very high military participation ratio in Pakistan and the military is a factor for cohesion and integration. When a society looks at its military it sees its own face so let us tread carefully. Undoing is easy-building something is difficult(http://pakistanpal.wordpress.com/2011/06/01/deadly-utterances/)
 

Pak Zindabad

Councller (250+ posts)
We can not forget........But.....SOMEBODY.....wants us to forget that and confront our Army ...........because that is the only way they can break us(Pakistanis)..........Now it is our choice if we want to help them in their organized agenda.
 

hans

Banned
Ok I agree.. Army doing this Army doing that.....

But tell me How should I treat my Chowkidar?

Should I let him wash my Car, or in return wash his bicycle (which strangely look more like a BMW)?
Should I let him run my house finance and hand him my bank account?
Should I let him run my home policy and Governance?
Should I look the other way, when he bully my family members?
Or
Should I expose his sweet pink bottom and give a hand full of chitter.

Here is a guide for you.... see How Iran and India Deal with there Army Generals... See how they
live and how much power they revoke on there home Political Front....

A quick answer .. Army of both the Countries have Zero Involvement and influence.

Look at us, how scared we are.... if I see an Army Jeep behind my Car .... I sure move out of there path.
And In return that stupid what ever rank he seems to enjoy on my Tax money .. never seems to say thank you.

Names not to be forgotten:
As they were the worst contributor to our collective downfall

Field Marshal Ayub Khan
General Zia-ul-haq
General Pervez Musharraf
Amir Abdullah Khan Niazi
General Agha Mohammad Yahya Khan Qizilbash

Let me further refresh memory .... remember being defeated and being humiliated are two different things.. After reading Instrument of Surrender DO you have a morsel of remorse for Our Great Pakistani Army.
1971 Instrument of Surrender

"The PAKISTAN Eastern Command agree to surrender all PAKISTAN Armed Forces in BANGLA DESH to Lieutenant-General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA, General Officer Commanding in Chief of the Indian and BANGLA DESH forces in the Eastern Theatre. This surrender includes all PAKISTAN land, air and naval forces as also all para-military forces and civil armed forces. These forces will lay down their arms and surrender at the places where they are currently located to the nearest regular troops under the command of Lieutenant-General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA.

The PAKISTAN Eastern Command shall come under the orders of Lieutenant-General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA as soon as the instrument has been signed. Disobedience of orders will be regarded as a breach of the surrender terms and will be dealt with in accordance with the accepted laws and usages of war. The decision of Lieutenant-General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA will be final, should any doubt arise as to the meaning or interpretation of the surrender terms.

Lieutenant-General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA gives a solemn assurance that personnel who surrender shall be treated with dignity and respect that soldiers are entitled to in accordance with provisions of the GENEVA Convention and guarantees the safety and well-being of all PAKISTAN military and para-military forces who surrender. Protection will be provided to foreign nationals, ethnic minorities and personnel of WEST PAKISTAN origin by the forces under the command of Lieutenant- General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA."


Signed by J.S. Aurora and A.A.K. Niazi on 16 December 1971.
 
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chitra

Councller (250+ posts)
We can not forget........But.....SOMEBODY.....wants us to forget that and confront our Army ...........because that is the only way they can break us(Pakistanis)..........Now it is our choice if we want to help them in their organized agenda.
__________________________________________________________

Before starting a new thread the person should assure himself that the topic has substantial reasoning and dimensions to discuss and it will give birth to a healthy, impartial and creative discussion. Leave religion aside and I am not less than another peace loving and patriotic Pakistani having NO misconceptions or negative feelings, whatsoever. Caption Should We Forget All That Military Has Done For The Country ? Will just start another useless debate. Name few achievements army had done for this country in first place. Pakistans identity was hacked by the Military in 1958 and still there is no end to this forced occupation even after the disintegration of East Pakistan. Battles fought with India brought Pakistan on back foot. Much cherished 1965 war is a genuine accomplishment but who started skirmishes to open the flood gates? Why Hilal-e-Istaqlal were given to Lahore, Sialkot & Sargodha and were raised on 6th Sept till decades? Give a single solid reason why this day is not celebrated any more? Canadian must answer this query as he is the starter of this and numerous other similar threads. Is he paid by the forum administration for throwing posts in abundance? Full time involvement means canadian is having no other job or means to earn bread & butter for his domestic needs. My query can be answered by any other individual who thinks himself apt enough to answer it. No hard feelings as the question are of an academic nature and needs to be addressed in a mature manner. By the way what's most decent alternate word for "STUPID"?
 
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mt_dilber

MPA (400+ posts)
No u should not forget and u should bring them to justice, BUT , choose the time any way of action, sensibly. Yes Amy has done a lot of mistakes and blunders but it is also the only defense line of your country.
 
Ok I agree.. Army doing this Army doing that.....

But tell me How should I treat my Chowkidar?

Should I let him wash my Car, or in return wash his bicycle (which strangely look more like a BMW)?
Should I let him run my house finance and hand him my bank account?
Should I let him run my home policy and Governance?
Should I look the other way, when he bully my family members?
Or
Should I expose his sweet pink bottom and give a hand full of chitter.

Here is a guide for you.... see How Iran and India Deal with there Army Generals... See how they
live and how much power they revoke on there home Political Front....

A quick answer .. Army of both the Countries have Zero Involvement and influence.

Look at us, how scared we are.... if I see an Army Jeep behind my Car .... I sure move out of there path.
And In return that stupid what ever rank he seems to enjoy on my Tax money .. never seems to say thank you.

Names not to be forgotten:
As they were the worst contributor to our collective downfall

Field Marshal Ayub Khan
General Zia-ul-haq
General Pervez Musharraf
Amir Abdullah Khan Niazi
General Agha Mohammad Yahya Khan Qizilbash

Let me further refresh memory .... remember being defeated and being humiliated are two different things.. After reading Instrument of Surrender DO you have a morsel of remorse for Our Great Pakistani Army.
1971 Instrument of Surrender

"The PAKISTAN Eastern Command agree to surrender all PAKISTAN Armed Forces in BANGLA DESH to Lieutenant-General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA, General Officer Commanding in Chief of the Indian and BANGLA DESH forces in the Eastern Theatre. This surrender includes all PAKISTAN land, air and naval forces as also all para-military forces and civil armed forces. These forces will lay down their arms and surrender at the places where they are currently located to the nearest regular troops under the command of Lieutenant-General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA.

The PAKISTAN Eastern Command shall come under the orders of Lieutenant-General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA as soon as the instrument has been signed. Disobedience of orders will be regarded as a breach of the surrender terms and will be dealt with in accordance with the accepted laws and usages of war. The decision of Lieutenant-General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA will be final, should any doubt arise as to the meaning or interpretation of the surrender terms.

Lieutenant-General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA gives a solemn assurance that personnel who surrender shall be treated with dignity and respect that soldiers are entitled to in accordance with provisions of the GENEVA Convention and guarantees the safety and well-being of all PAKISTAN military and para-military forces who surrender. Protection will be provided to foreign nationals, ethnic minorities and personnel of WEST PAKISTAN origin by the forces under the command of Lieutenant- General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA."


Signed by J.S. Aurora and A.A.K. Niazi on 16 December 1971.

Yes Pakistan armed forces have made mistakes and should be held to account. 16 December 1971 was a dark day in the history of Pakistan and perhaps was payback for all the policy of the time. 1965 ,1947 should also not forgoten when India was repelled and Azad Kashmir was liberated respectivly.We should also remember all the good work it has done during relife work during Earthquke in 2005 and the Floods of last years.Credit where credit is due.Maybe it is a desire of some nations to distance the people of Pakistan and the Army as the army is the only institutaion worthy of any mention.
 

sam123

Banned
In every country,army is accountable ..They cant shy away..Army as of now are biggest tax eaters..they have big business interests from cement to chemicals,to food and marriage halls.

Lets treat them same as they are treated in iran,india,usa,england or any other democratic country...
 

canadian

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Ok I agree.. Army doing this Army doing that.....

But tell me How should I treat my Chowkidar?

Should I let him wash my Car, or in return wash his bicycle (which strangely look more like a BMW)?
Should I let him run my house finance and hand him my bank account?
Should I let him run my home policy and Governance?
Should I look the other way, when he bully my family members?
Or
Should I expose his sweet pink bottom and give a hand full of chitter.

Here is a guide for you.... see How Iran and India Deal with there Army Generals... See how they
live and how much power they revoke on there home Political Front....

A quick answer .. Army of both the Countries have Zero Involvement and influence.

Look at us, how scared we are.... if I see an Army Jeep behind my Car .... I sure move out of there path.
And In return that stupid what ever rank he seems to enjoy on my Tax money .. never seems to say thank you.

Names not to be forgotten:
As they were the worst contributor to our collective downfall

Field Marshal Ayub Khan
General Zia-ul-haq
General Pervez Musharraf
Amir Abdullah Khan Niazi
General Agha Mohammad Yahya Khan Qizilbash

Let me further refresh memory .... remember being defeated and being humiliated are two different things.. After reading Instrument of Surrender DO you have a morsel of remorse for Our Great Pakistani Army.
1971 Instrument of Surrender

"The PAKISTAN Eastern Command agree to surrender all PAKISTAN Armed Forces in BANGLA DESH to Lieutenant-General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA, General Officer Commanding in Chief of the Indian and BANGLA DESH forces in the Eastern Theatre. This surrender includes all PAKISTAN land, air and naval forces as also all para-military forces and civil armed forces. These forces will lay down their arms and surrender at the places where they are currently located to the nearest regular troops under the command of Lieutenant-General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA.

The PAKISTAN Eastern Command shall come under the orders of Lieutenant-General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA as soon as the instrument has been signed. Disobedience of orders will be regarded as a breach of the surrender terms and will be dealt with in accordance with the accepted laws and usages of war. The decision of Lieutenant-General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA will be final, should any doubt arise as to the meaning or interpretation of the surrender terms.

Lieutenant-General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA gives a solemn assurance that personnel who surrender shall be treated with dignity and respect that soldiers are entitled to in accordance with provisions of the GENEVA Convention and guarantees the safety and well-being of all PAKISTAN military and para-military forces who surrender. Protection will be provided to foreign nationals, ethnic minorities and personnel of WEST PAKISTAN origin by the forces under the command of Lieutenant- General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA."


Signed by J.S. Aurora and A.A.K. Niazi on 16 December 1971.



The Facts Behind 1965 War





In the current scenario while a fresh wave of propaganda against Pakistan army has been started, folks are talking to reopen the Hamood-ul-Rehman report and reinvestigate the causes of defeat in 1971 war, if case of Bhutto’s hanging can be reopened than why an investigative commission cannot be established to investigate the reasons and purpose of 1965 war. The present govt. has filed a Presidential reference in the Supreme Court to reopen the case of Zulifqar Ali Bhutto and Supreme Court has started judicial hearings over this. Apparently, it seems that this has been done only to create chaos and divert attention of public from important issues of stability. If the verdict of court goes against the will of PPPP workers than whole country will have to face turmoil and if it goes against Zia-ul-Haq than whole army will be under the fire of criticism and propaganda. In this way, a covert attack has been launched on the credibility of Pakistan army. Through these controversial cases, not only our corrupt politicians will be able to hide their corruption but they can also keep their anti-Pakistan activities going on. My question is if time of courts can be wasted in cases like hanging of Bhutto, report of Hamood-ul-Rehman commission can be published than why the facts about 1965 are not released? Why and how the war that was won by our brave soldiers by sacrificing their lives was lost on the table by our Foreign Minister?

Today I will try to strip down such facts about 1965 war. As soon as the month of September arrives, harsh memories of 1965 war get afresh. From the first day, this was told to the nation that India suddenly attacked Pakistan in the dark of night. What was the reason and purpose behind this war, this has never been told. This was the war, which cut down the wings of Shaheen even before its first flight and till now this shaheen has been unable to fly. Who was afraid of a newborn Asian country developing rapidly? Alas! We would have identified enemies present within ourselves. If we had made these people accountable earlier the situation of Pakistan would have been much different. But the heinous game played against Pakistan is so much mysterious and wrapped up in curtains that real culprits could not have been identified and punished till now. Even until now, we continue to follow traitors like Mir Jaffar and Mir Sadiq and their offsprings.

If the war 0f 1965 had been successful to the prepared plan than the map of sub-continent would have been much different from now. This is the war in which Indian aggression was turned into defeat for India by our brave soldiers giving up their live to protect the motherland, by tying dynamite to their chests and laying under the tanks of enemy, they proved to the world that not only the lives can be taken b but given as well to protect the country. They fought with such heartlessness that enemy got astonished. Although lion hearted soldiers of Pakistan army stopped the conspiracy but this conspiracy achieved its target in war of 1971. Too much propaganda is done over 1971 war and its results. After defeat, country was divided into two parts. 90 thousand soldiers laid down their weapons (while the actual number of soldiers of armed forces arrested as prisoners of war is not more than 45000, rest were the employees of different civil departments like health, post office, police, telephone etc.). But no one is ready to disclose the conspiracy of 1965 war and the purpose behind it. Just because this war did not end in defeat of Pakistan and even traitors posed themselves as patriots, they cannot allow investigations in this regard, as they may be exposed. But imagining the results, if this conspiracy had been successful in 1965 makes one shiver with fear. Pakistan would have been turned into Indian colony ruled by pro-Indian rulers. Another reason that this inquiry cannot be conducted is that in order to take the revenge of Indian defeat in 1965, the chaos about secrets of Tashkent deal has been propagated in such a way that nation cannot see anything beyond this. It is obvious that nation is still being punished for defeating India in 1965. Although afterwards in 1971 country was broken into two parts, 90 thousand Pakistani were enslaved but the conspiracies of internal enemies had not ended yet, time by time, they produce new excuses.

In 1947 when Pakistan got independence, due to internal weaknesses world was sure that this new born state will not survive for long time. India further strengthened this hypothesis through her European friends (that was the reason that Afghanistan preferred stronger India to weaker Pakistan). In the start of 60s, Pakistani economy was developing rapidly. This was not acceptable for West, afraid of communalism and socialism. They wanted stronger India so that it can be prepared to fight with giants. That is the reason that West is always supporting India in Kashmir dispute. But Indian dispute with China changed the whole scenario. Defense and economical weakness of India made west restless.

In 1962, Chinese attack on India was not without any reason. The actual dispute behind this war was that in World War-II English captured some parts of China along with Indian border, China kept silent due to internal weakness. But after successful revolution when China demanded these areas back, English had already left the sub-continent. In 1958 China proposed that both countries leave 25, 25 miles area from their current boundaries declaring 50 miles area as NO MAN LAND. After this dispute should be solved through peaceful means. Nehru arrogantly rejected this proposal because India had made strong ties with Russia and Europe. China repeated same demand in 1961 but as usual not only Nehru rejected this proposal but used aggressive and insulting language against Chinese leaders in the session of parliament. So Chinese were forced to teach the lesson to India by force. In the mid of 1962 Chinese army attacked and penetrated 90 miles within India. Nehru pressurized Ayub Khan through western friends so that Pakistan allows India to use some of the areas of eastern Pakistan against China as Military Bases. Ayub Khan straightly rejected this pressure. After this western powers dispatched minister of British common wealth “Dankan Sanday” as their messenger to subcontinent, he met Nehru who was worried that Pakistan may attack over Indian Held Kashmir, he consolidated Nehru. Later on through the support of Bhutto acting as temporary Foreign Minister of Pakistan, Sanday met Ayub Khan and got assurance that Pakistan will not attack India in that hard time. Bhutto used to call Ayub Khan as “Daddy” in gatherings. This was the time when to weaken Pakistan conspiracies were formed. But foolish and simple Pakistani could not understand these conspiracies and identify hidden enemy (Pakistani are so much simple even now). They did not question that why a feudal of Sindh, having Feudalistic and arrogant lifestyle, not hesitating in claiming Nehru as his ideal personality, in order to prove himself as follower of Nehru takes Rose as his weakness, himself takes care of rose plant just to resemble with Nehru. Why such a person had made Ayub Khan (Althoguh now General but son of an ordinary Pathan Sepoy) his father? Some people raise the objection that why few Generals were playing in the hands of Bhutto, especially General Gul Hassan? Very few people are aware that Station Commander of Rawalpindi, Colonel Sahibzada Mustafa was married to sister of Bhutto and General Gul Hassan had worked under Colonel Mustafa. As per the behavior of Bhutto, he never mentioned his relationship with Colonel, because after having links with Generals, relatives of lower ranks were a cause of insult for him. General Gul Hassan had much respect for his old Commander and was aware of his relationship with Bhutto. When intentions are bad then due to the mutual interests people get together as the birds of a flock fly together.

He is the same Gul Hassan who arranged safe return of Bhutto after fall of Dhaka, and made him leader of the country, not only himself accepted a civil ruler as Chief Martial Administrator but forced the whole nation to accept as well.

If we analyze the 1965 war, one fact is clear that it is impossible to watch every inch of the hundreds of miles long border. Whether it is modern warfare or ages old, there are specific strategies to attack enemy through specific weak points keeping in mind the geographical locations as well. This has never happened in the history that an army of thousands of men arrives at the gates of the enemy without letting enemy beware as they were wearing magical caps. Unless enemy has no power to defend itself or there is abundance of traitors. In 1965, electronic media was not so much effective and print media was not so much advanced. But people of common sense know that attacks or wars are not launched suddenly. But we are still being told that Indians suddenly attacked heart of Pakistan, Lahore in the dark of night. If so happened then what punishment was given to those who were responsible to keep an eye over the military formations and movements of enemy? If we look at the headlines of newspapers before 1965 war, they read that Pakistan had started its activities in Indian Held Kashmir by infiltrating Gorillas and this is not a secret that all this was done on the orders of Foreign Minister of that time i.e. Zulifqar Ali Bhutto. These reports are preserved in the pages of these newspapers that Bhutto has assured Ayub and General Musa to the extent of belief that “If Pakistan starts limited operation in Indian Held Kashmir, India will not attack Pakistan on the international border”. In order to further strengthen, trust of the establishment of that time Bhutto said that he had taken guarantee from China and other world powers that India will not launch open aggression against Pakistan. Astonishing fact is that experienced Commander like General Musa, who has climbed from the rank of soldier/sepoy to such high rank, was cheated by Bhutto. Bhutto was playing double game, if Kashmir had been freed from Indian forces, all the praise should have been for Bhutto, and in case of defeat including Ayub Khan, General Musa, General Sarfraz, General Akhtar Hussein and many other would have been blamed for this. While in both cases, the Shimla Accord has to be signed by Bhutto as Foreign Minister of Pakistan, after which this announcement had to be made, “Thanks! Pakistan had been saved”.

6th September is coming near, while nation celebrates victory, nation should be told that when Gorilla Operation had been launched in the Indian Held Kashmir, and Indian Prime Minister was warning that now Indian would attack its choice of place, why Foreign Ministry ordered army to prepare sports ground in Lahore. When there were reports that India had dispatched Heavy artillery and APC’s why our Foreign Ministry did not stop saying that we will remain peaceful in all situations? When Pakistani troops wanted to go to the border, they were stopped in the name of a special gathering in US consulate for which few Americans had to visit from India via Wahga border to participate in this function. Therefore, if they saw troops moving towards border this will not be good for peaceful image of Pakistan. The reports afterwards proved that the jeeps of these Americans were being driven by Indian army officers in civil clothes, after returning back they reported that all is clear. This is why Indians attacked in the dark of night otherwise neither the Radio Akashwani nor Indian Army Chief General Manak Shah was so much crazy that they claimed they will take their lunch in Lahore Gymkhana. Indian had never dreamt that they would face any resistance. Nation is proud of those lions of Pakistan army who not only defeated external but internal enemies as well and as reward accepted just the martyrdom.

If present govt. has reopened Bhutto case, wants to reinvestigate 1971 war than they should gather courage to hold an investigation in 1965 war and punish those characters that pushed Ayub to this war and should take legal measures against them as well. We are always trying to protect our own interests; we hide many facts in the name of national interests. But nation could never get aware of those national interests for which these dirty secrets are secrets yet…



Written By Khalid Baig,A Selection from “Aur Kia Likhoon اور کیا لکھوں”
 

drkjke

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
army has done a lot for us so we should worship it and forgive all its mistakes etc etc.you daily hear these words in forums,newspapers,tv channels etc etc.
but actually this concept of loving ones army for sake of nationalism only is alien to islam.islam does not allow nationalistic emotions to over come even religious obligations of a person.
according to islamic concepts a person who acts on islam and follows allah better is our dear brother even if he is a black slave from africa...but if our own blood brother acts againt islam and allahs orders and fights along with kufar against muslims than he is no longer our brother and we have nothing to do with him
anyone remember the last khutba of prophet muhammad pbuhsallalah u alihe wasallum?do raed it.and anyone here should remember how our prophet fought against his own tribe "quraish " just for the sake of islam and allah.why not we read seera of our prophet?why this generation reads shakespears mind damaging plays but has no time for reading of quran and sunnah of prophet (pbuh).
thats why this generation has lost its way and now is blind ,deaf and dumb...yes!anyone who is blind to his creator is worse than a blind deaf and dumb person.


our nations blind love for this army who is now an open ally of kufar nations like america and nato against our muslim brothers is a very tragic fact...in the light of it how can anyone justify supporting them anymore?i cant see that.
remember tah your atomb bomb and 6 lakh army is not going to save you...its only allahs blessing that saves you.please allah and HE will make miracles happen and you will be victorious.cant you see how just few thousand taliban are defeating american,british,nato and isaf troops all combined in afghanistan!just 3 days ago mujahideen killed isaf commander in chief in afghanistan.a german general.while your 6 lakh army is afraid of america.is it not a miracle of iman?
why not clean your heart from nationalism and love of your caste abnd creed,these things only damage you .its iman in allah taht cleanse ones heart.

even if you are dead secular and hate islam like most present day people are .even than army,s looting of pakistans resources is a thing that is not good...remember that rich men cant fight .when you make an army of property dealers they will abandon you on first fire of war to go to ther ranches in america.like iraqi officers did after american attack...than you people who already are alien to concept of jihad will have no way out but to surrender to kufar and become their open slaves (even now you people are hidden slaves)...mujahideen who could defend you ,they are being killed daily by your brave army and airforce...talk about cutting the same tree on which you are sitting!

if your army did so much for you than why forget the tribal muslims who freed azaad kashmir by themselves and who also fought in kargil .same mujahideen who under kufar orders your army is killing.



remember that when you side with nationalism rather than islam than infact you are damaging the roots of pakistan.pakistan was made in name of islam and without islam it will be no more....
pakistan was not made for punjabi sindhi balochis and pakhtoons.it was made for all practicing muslims for world...iqbals concept is also that a true muslim has no country.islam is his nation and tribe...he sides with whoever is on true path of islam.

you people side with your army even when it kills 1000 unarmed girl students in jamia hafza...it is not right.this is called nationalism.

according to islam if our army repents and again starts to fight only in allahs cause than we are with this army,but if this army supports kufar in any way tahn we cant support this army.no way.because allah forbids us from that.
read in my below post what is nationalism and how islam has totally forbidden it
 
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gazoomartian

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Ok I agree.. Army doing this Army doing that.....

But tell me How should I treat my Chowkidar?

Should I let him wash my Car, or in return wash his bicycle (which strangely look more like a BMW)?
Should I let him run my house finance and hand him my bank account?
Should I let him run my home policy and Governance?
Should I look the other way, when he bully my family members?
Or
Should I expose his sweet pink bottom and give a hand full of chitter.

Here is a guide for you.... see How Iran and India Deal with there Army Generals... See how they
live and how much power they revoke on there home Political Front....

A quick answer .. Army of both the Countries have Zero Involvement and influence.

Look at us, how scared we are.... if I see an Army Jeep behind my Car .... I sure move out of there path.
And In return that stupid what ever rank he seems to enjoy on my Tax money .. never seems to say thank you.

Names not to be forgotten:
As they were the worst contributor to our collective downfall

Field Marshal Ayub Khan
General Zia-ul-haq
General Pervez Musharraf
Amir Abdullah Khan Niazi
General Agha Mohammad Yahya Khan Qizilbash

Let me further refresh memory .... remember being defeated and being humiliated are two different things.. After reading Instrument of Surrender DO you have a morsel of remorse for Our Great Pakistani Army.
1971 Instrument of Surrender

"The PAKISTAN Eastern Command agree to surrender all PAKISTAN Armed Forces in BANGLA DESH to Lieutenant-General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA, General Officer Commanding in Chief of the Indian and BANGLA DESH forces in the Eastern Theatre. This surrender includes all PAKISTAN land, air and naval forces as also all para-military forces and civil armed forces. These forces will lay down their arms and surrender at the places where they are currently located to the nearest regular troops under the command of Lieutenant-General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA.

The PAKISTAN Eastern Command shall come under the orders of Lieutenant-General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA as soon as the instrument has been signed. Disobedience of orders will be regarded as a breach of the surrender terms and will be dealt with in accordance with the accepted laws and usages of war. The decision of Lieutenant-General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA will be final, should any doubt arise as to the meaning or interpretation of the surrender terms.

Lieutenant-General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA gives a solemn assurance that personnel who surrender shall be treated with dignity and respect that soldiers are entitled to in accordance with provisions of the GENEVA Convention and guarantees the safety and well-being of all PAKISTAN military and para-military forces who surrender. Protection will be provided to foreign nationals, ethnic minorities and personnel of WEST PAKISTAN origin by the forces under the command of Lieutenant- General JAGJIT SINGH AURORA."


Signed by J.S. Aurora and A.A.K. Niazi on 16 December 1971.


what a boring post in reply geeez, cant you come up with something better, or must you constantly prove that you are an idiot??
 

drkjke

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
The Prohibition Of Nationalism In Islam

Nationalism is a concept alien to Islam because it calls for unity based on family and tribalistic ties, whereas Islam binds people together on the `Aqeedah, that is belief in Allah (swt) and His Messenger (saaw). Islam calls for the ideological bond.
Grouping the Muslims on tribalistic lines is clearly forbidden. It is narrated by Abu Da'wud that the Messenger of Allah (saaw) said,
"He is not one us who calls for `Asabiyyah, (nationalism/tribalism) or who fights for `Asabiyyah or who dies for `Asabiyyah."
And in another Hadith, the Messenger of Allah (saaw) referring to nationalism, racism, and patriotism said:
"Leave it, it is rotten." [Muslim and Bukhari] and in the Hadith recorded in Mishkat al-Masabith, the Messenger of Allah (saaw) said,
"He who calls for `Asabiyyah is as if he bit his father's genitals"
Also, the Messenger of Allah (saaw) said, narrated by At-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud,
"There are indeed people who boast of their dead ancestors; but in the sight of Allah they are more contemptible than the black beetle that rolls a piece of dung with its nose. Behold, Allah has removed from you the arrogance of the Time of Jahiliyyah (Ignorance) with its boast of ancestral glories. Man is but an Allah-fearing believer or an unfortunate sinner. All people are the children of Adam, and Adam was created out of dust."
Also, the Messenger of Allah (saaw) said,
"Undoubtedly Allah has removed from you the pride of arrogance of the age of Jahilliyah (ignorance) and the glorification of ancestors. Now people are of two kinds. Either believers who are aware or transgressors who do wrong. You are all the children of Adam and Adam was made of clay. People should give up their pride in nations because that is a coal from the coals of Hell-fire. If they do not give this up Allah (swt) will consider them lower than the lowly worm which pushes itself through Khara (dung)." [Abu Dawud and Tirmidhi]
There are many examples in the Seerah where the Messenger of Allah (saaw) had rebuked those who upheld nationalism. One one occasion a party of Jews conspired to bring about disunity in the ranks of the Muslims after seeing the Aus and Khazraj within Islam. A youth from amongst them was sent to incite remembrance of the battle of Bu'ath where the Aus had been victorious over the Khazraj, and he recited poetry to bring about division between them. As a result there was a call to arms.
When the news reached the Messenger of Allah (saaw), he (saaw) said,
"O Muslims, remember Allah, remember Allah. Will you act as pagans while I am present with you after Allah has guided you to Islam, and honored you thereby and made a clean break with paganism; delivered you thereby from disbelief; and made you friends thereby?"
When they heard this they wept, and embraced each other. This incident clearly highlights how the messenger of Allah (saaw) rebuked any forms of tribalism. Allah (swt) then revealed,
"O you who believe! Fear Allah as He should be feared and die not except in a state of Islam with complete submission to Allah. And hold fast, all of you together, to the rope of Allah (i.e. Qur'an), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favors on you; for you were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace you became brothers; and you were on the brink of the pit of fire, and He saved you from it. Thus Allah make His signs clear to you that you may be guided." [Surah Al'Imran (3); ayah 102-103]
It is narrated by Qatada that Ibnu Abi Hathim said that in the verses quoted above Allah (swt) has ordered the Muslims to hold fast to the book of Allah, His Deen, and to his covenant, and He has forbidden the Muslims to divide amongst themselves and to dispute with each other.
In another incident, Jabir ibn `Abd Allah al Ansari, narrated what happened at the watering place of al Muraysi which led to the Munafiqun stirring up the traces of `Asabiyyah and seeking to destroy the unity of the Muslims. He said: "We were on a raid when one of the Muhajirun kicked one of the Ansar. The Ansar said, `O Ansar! Help me! (calling his tribe) and the Muhajir said, `O Muhajirun! Help me! (calling his tribe). The Messenger of Allah (saaw) heard them and said,
"Why are you stirring up something which belongs to Jahilliyah?"
The Messenger of Allah (saaw) did not deal with the situation only by speaking to his men, but he walked with the men all that day until nightfall, and through the night until morning and during the following day until the sun distressed them. Then he halted them, and as soon as they touched the ground, they fell asleep. He did this to distract their minds from what had transpired.
It is transmitted by at-Tabarani and al-Hakim that in one incident some people spoke very lowly about Salman al-Farsi. They spoke of the inferiority of the Persian in relation to the Arabs, and upon hearing this the Messenger of Allah (saaw) declared,
"Salman is from us, the ahl al-bayt (the Prophet's family)."
This statement of the Messenger of Allah (saaw) disassociates all links based on lineage and tribal considerations.
It was also transmitted, in two different versions, by Ibn al-Mubarak in his two books, Al-Birr and As-Salah, that some disagreement occurred between Abu Dharr and Bilal and Abu Dharr said to Bilal, "You son of a black woman." The Messenger of Allah (saaw) was extremely upset by Abu Dharr's comment, so he (saaw) rebuked him by saying,
"That is too much, Abu Dharr. He who has a white mother has no advantage which makes him better than the son of a black mother."
This rebuke had a profound effect on Abu Dharr, who then put his head on the ground swearing that he would not raise it until Bilal had put his foot over it.
These incidents demonstrate that tribal ties have no place in Islam. Muslims are commanded to stick together and not to disassociate themselves from each other just because they come from different tribes. The Messenger of Allah (saaw) also said,
"The believers, in their love, mutual kindness, and close ties, are like one body; when any part complains, the whole body responds to it with wakefulness and fever." [Muslim],
"The faithful are like one man: if his eyes suffers, his whole body suffers." [Muslim],
"An Arab is no better than a non-Arab. In return, a non-Arab is no better than an Arab. A red raced man was not better than a black one except in piety. Mankind are all Adam's children and Adam was created out of clay." [Al-Bukhari and Muslim, on the authority of Abu Musa]
Meaning that the Muslims, whether they are of Chinese, African, European or Asian origin, are one Ummah and they cannot be separated from each other. No tribalistic ties should ever break their unity.
Furthermore, Allah (swt), says,
The Faithful are but brothers..." [Surah Al-Hujurat (49): ayah 10]
And the Messenger of Allah (saaw) said,
"The Faithful are to one another like [parts of] a building - each part strengthening the others"
and
"Every Muslim is a brother to a Muslim, neither wronging him nor allowing him to be wronged. And if anyone helps his brother in need, Allah will help him in his own need; and if anyone removes a calamity from [another] Muslim, Allah will remove from him some of the calamities of the Day of Resurrection; and if anyone shields [another] Muslim from disgrace, Allah will shield him from the disgrace on the Day of Resurrection." [Al-Bukhari and Muslim, on the authority of `Abd Allah ibn `Umar]
Some people claim that the Messenger of Allah (saaw) approved of nationalism because during the migration to Madinah, he (saaw) said about Makkah with tears in his (saaw) eyes,
"You are the most beloved land of Allah to me."
However, this saying has nothing to do with nationalism, and this can be seen from the full saying which people often do not quote,
"You are the most beloved land of Allah to me because you are the most beloved land of Allah to Allah."
The Messenger of Allah's (saaw) lover for Makkah was based on the noble status that Allah (swt) has given to Makkah, and not because he (saaw) was born there. All Muslims should have this love and affection for Makkah because it is the most beloved land in the sight of Allah (swt). After all, the Muslims pray towards Makkah and go there to perform Hajj there as it houses the Ka'ba. The above saying of the Messenger of Allah (saaw) therefore has nothing to do with nationalism. If Rasoolillah (saaw) and the Muhajireen amongst the Sahabah (raa) were tied to the homeland (of Makkah), they would have settled in Makkah after it became part of the Islamic State.
Not only does Islam forbid people from grouping on nationalistic ties, but it also prohibits the establishment of more than one state, whether these states are based on nationalism or otherwise. The only state that is allowed for the Muslims is the Islamic State, which is a state that is governed exclusively by Islam. Allah (swt) addressed the Messenger (saaw),
"And rule between them by that which Allah revealed to you, and do not follow their vain desires away from the truth which came to you" [Surah Al-Madinah (5): ayah 48]
and,
"And rule between them by that which Allah revealed to you and do not follow their whims, and beware (be on the alert) that they may deviate you away from even some part of what Allah revealed to you." [Surah Al-Maidah (5): ayah 49]
The speech of Allah (swt) to the Messenger (saaw) is a speech to his (saaw) Ummah unless specific evidence comes to restrict this. In this case, there is no such restriction, and so it becomes obligatory for the Muslims to rule according to Islam. And ruling according to Islam leaves no room for nationalistic constitutions whatsoever because what is applied, and what forms the criteria for judgement, is the Book of Allah (swt) and the Sunnah of the Messenger (saaw).

This unity of the Muslims was clearly highlighted in the document that the Messenger of Allah (saaw) wrote when he established the Islamic State in Madinah. In this document, which was to regulate the relationships of Muslims and non-Muslims in the Islamic State, the Messenger of Allah (saaw) said regarding the Muslims,
"Allah's covenant amongst them is one" and "The Believers are brothers to the exclusion of others" and "The peace of the believers is indivisible. No separate peace shall be made with believers are fighting in the way of Allah."
These statements serve to indicate that Muslims are one body and they are not to be treated separately. Furthermore, the obligation of having one state, and not many nationalistic states, also comes from the Ijma' of the Sahabah. When the Messenger of Allah (saaw) died, the Sahabah (raa) convened to discuss the appointment of the Khalifah in the courtyard of Bani Sa'ida. One person had proposed that the Ansar should elect their own Amir and the Muhajireen their own, but Abu Bakr (ra) narrated the Hadith that forbids the Ummah from having more than one leader. Thus, the Sahabah (raa) never allowed more than one ruler and their consensus is a legitimate evidence for us.
. Islam calls for one state with one ruler where all Muslims are bound by the `Aqeedah of Islam. And this is a matter deciddd by Islam to which we must submit to, for Allah (swt) says,
"O mankind, verily We have created you from a male and a female, and made you peoples and tribes, so that you may recognize each other. Verily, the most honored of you to Allah is (he who) safeguards himself against evil with full awareness of Divine Laws. Verily, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware." [Surah Al Hujurat (49): ayah 13]
This verse was revealed immediately after the triumphant entry of the Prophet (saaw) into Makkah. After the declaration of immunity to the Quraysh, the Prophet (saaw) requested Bilal (ra) to give the Adhan. A group of three new Muslims were observing the proceedings when Bilal (ra) was asked to make the Adhan. One of them remarked how happy he was that his parents were not present to see such a disgusting sight. Another one, Harith bin Hisham commented that the Prophet (saaw) couldn't find anybody other than a black crow to make the Adhan. The third one, Abu Sufyan, abstained from making any adverse comment, stating that if he said anything, Allah (swt) would send a revelation to Muhammad (saaw) addressing his statement.
Allah (swt) sent Jibreel (as) to inform the Prophet (saaw) of the discussion that had just taken place. The prophet (saaw) asked the three men about their conversation, who confirmed to the Prophet (saaw) what Jibreel (as) told him. The verse of the Qur'an was subsequently revealed.
Because these individuals from the Quraysh were differentiating between themselves and Bilal (ra), Allah (swt) revealed this verse, concluding that the only criteria that Allah (swt) uses to judge between Muslims is that of Taqwa, which Bilal (ra) had and of which they were devoid of. This verse destroys the basis of nationalism in Islam.
In the first part of the Ayah, Allah (swt) revealed to humanity that all human beings were created from a single pair - Adam and Eve. This statement clearly refutes any claim of certain people that humans came from animals through the process of evolution or any other such claim.
The part of the Ayah, "..and made you peoples and tribes, so that you may know each other..." is usually misinterpreted as `nations and tribes' to justify the differences created by the existing borders, specifically in the Muslim World. In addition, such misinterpretations are also used to encourage Muslims to foster pride in these affiliations.
Unfortunately, these Muslims quickly jump to conclusions without looking at what Allah (swt) says. The errant understanding of this Ayah attempts to legitimize the current situation of the Muslim Ummah as many nations - divided and powerless - resulting from the destruction of the Khilafah state on March 3rd, 1924 by the puppet of the Kuffar, Mustafa Kamal.
Furthermore, such a misunderstanding lends legitimacy to the continued division of the already divided Muslim lands that and the renting asunder of the last Islamic Khilafah by the British agent Sykes and the French agent Picot during World War I in which they used the pencil and ruler to divide the Muslim Ummah.
"It is not for a believer (male or female) that when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any choice in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in plain error." [Surah Al-Ahzab (33): ayah 36]
And those who still uphold nationalism, remember what Allah (swt) says, "And let those who oppose the Messenger's commandment beware, lest some Fitnah (disbelief, trials,afflictions,...) befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them." [Surah An-Nur (24): ayah 63]
 
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Unicorn

Banned
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned: Shakespeare


DEADLY UTTERANCES

By: Ahsan Waheed
Shazoo is six years old. He lives in a small remote village at the foot of the Siachen Glacier in Northern Pakistan. For the last one year he has been going to a school and he has to walk a mile to get there. When he comes home he tells his parents and brothers and sisters to wash their hands, brush their teeth and learn from his books. The school is the first in that area and it is run by the military deployed to defend the Glacier. There are many other Shazoos attending schools in remote areas run by the military all over the country in the remotest areas as well as in villages and urban areasmany are free. Military hospitals provide medical treatment to all and are easily among the best in the country. The military runs a vast network of schools, colleges, hospitals and vocational training centers. Much criticized for its commercial activities the military employs hundreds of thousands of civilians and retired personnel and pays billions in taxes. The profits pay for hospitals, schools, parks and troops welfare. Military run enterprises whether farms or factories or real estate are among the best in the country.
Today the military is under fire and rightly so because there have been lapses and there is blowback from past policies. Does this mean we forget all that the military has done for the country and all that it is doing to defend it? The military is stoically bearing all that is thrown its way and our enemies who thought that the center of gravity in Pakistan was in the military are gloating and laughing as everyone lines up to add a stone to the many being heaped on a national institution that is struggling to cope with fast moving events. Pakistan is under attack and the military is defending it from Siachen to the sea and on the sea and in the air and fighting and dying in the western border area.
A lady known for her defense of the down trodden has used most unladylike language in a scathing attack on the military institution. She has chosen to do so when the institution is in a difficult position and not able to defend itself. What she has said has never ever been said by anyone about their armed forces. She chose to do this publicly. She has found supporters but there are also many who are castigating her and the language they are using is far from temperate. Why are people ganging up on an institution that is on the defensive? Who are these people? Whom do they want to please? Is it a hatred welling up? Is it driven by the tone set by the outspoken lady and others of her ilk? Does it have to do with the dire straits in which the country finds itself today? Will the destruction of an institution solve the problems that we face today? The liberals mouthing accusations need breath tests to determine if they are in a fit state to stand up and bellow on television. They need to look at themselves and their petty ambitions.
The country is under attack from within and without. To survive and overcome the odds against it the country needs to muster and orchestrate all its resources. Those creating divisions are not the well wishers of this country. This is perhaps the time to establish civilian supremacy in the country to end the ambiguity that surrounds decision making and leads to speculations about who is in charge and who calls the shots. This can be done if the political leadership takes charge, asserts itself, issues directives to the military, formulates policy and brings about governance that will create harmony, law and order and resolve issues. The defense budget can be scrutinized and the government can decide what kind of options it wants to pay for. The Defense Ministry can be made effective. The DCC can meet every week. Parliamentary committees can develop the capacity to exercise oversight So much can be done if we want to be constructive and not destructive, open minded and not vindictive. We need to be sure of what we are saying and doing and not speculate. By ill informed opinions and rabid outbursts and carefully cloaked barbs we may be doing our enemies a great service and our country a great disservice. Posing as wise owls ,screaming banshees and moderators of orchestrated debates some people are doing grave harm to the county. There is a very high military participation ratio in Pakistan and the military is a factor for cohesion and integration. When a society looks at its military it sees its own face so let us tread carefully. Undoing is easy-building something is difficult(http://pakistanpal.wordpress.com/2011/06/01/deadly-utterances/)

When these lies will end about operation Jibralter. Keep lying and keep suffering.

 

hans

Banned
You can call a Rose by what ever name you want .... but Rose looks and smell like a Rose.

SO my Dear, Gazoomartian.... I know its your frustration flushing out like hell, but bear with me... understand that what I have said in my post is
very true to its core.

May be my wording look a bit harsh, but you have to trust me..... Its better to know what ills follow you, before it kills you.

Listen to this Song and see how we as a nation been pinned down, hopelessly first with the constant Fear mongering with India, now Taliban.
Since our Existence technically we have burned all our saving and resources in fear of a Boogie Monster that ponder next to our Nation Walls.


May Allah SWT help us, in time of desperation.







what a boring post in reply geeez, cant you come up with something better, or must you constantly prove that you are an idiot??
 

WatanDost

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by hans
You can call a Rose by what ever name you want .... but Rose looks and smell like a Rose.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh394UVfwvE

Watch and listen this
You will recognize A REAL BOOGIE MONSTER
Then read your thread again
May be you feel ASHAMED
If you have SOME.
 

wanderer

Siasat.pk - Blogger
No reprimanding does not mean that the plan is to break Pakistan.

If the army is not doing what its supposed to, How can one be endearing to it ?
 

Agarwal

Councller (250+ posts)
You can call a Rose by what ever name you want .... but Rose looks and smell like a Rose.

SO my Dear, Gazoomartian.... I know its your frustration flushing out like hell, but bear with me... understand that what I have said in my post is
very true to its core.

May be my wording look a bit harsh, but you have to trust me..... Its better to know what ills follow you, before it kills you.

Listen to this Song and see how we as a nation been pinned down, hopelessly first with the constant Fear mongering with India, now Taliban.
Since our Existence technically we have burned all our saving and resources in fear of a Boogie Monster that ponder next to our Nation Walls.


May Allah SWT help us, in time of desperation.
_____________________________________________________

gazoomartian frustration speaks volumes about your knowledge and experience. being founding member or a profit sharing person on this forum he acts like a big boss. Does age make any credibility about a person who is ill informedor better say thinks himself as master of all trades and authority on all subjects. keep sailing till the wind blows. all these few dozen masters never read what they post in larger than 9their0 size stuff.
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These 1965 events are for opening the eyes of new Born's WHO gave abrupt comments with out thinking. 'faqira' must listen these dedicated songs to understand what impact it made on Pakistan Armed Forces and the citizens of Pakistan, then. Raise the same spirit and condemn only "The Generals" and not the army as a whole.
 
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zaman

MPA (400+ posts)
کوئی اگر اپنی ڈیوٹی ادا کرتا ہے تو قوم پر یا ادارے پر کوئی احسان نہیں کرتا -اسی کام کے اسے پیسے ملتے ہیں - فوج میں آدمی اپنے شوق اور بہترمستقبل کے لئے جاتا -خدمت کے لئے نہیں -٦٣ سالوں میں فوج نے ملک کو لوٹاہی ہے - دیا کچھ نہیں -مہرا ن بیس ہو یا ابٹ آباد کا واقع ہو -فوج کہاںنظر اتی ہے-قوم کی خون پسینے کی کمائی میں سے کھربوں روپے ہر سال فوجی کھاتے ہیں -نتیجہ ؟ رسوائی اور قوم کی ذلت -
فوج میں آپرشن کلین اپ کی ضرو رت ہے - اخلاقی اور دینی تر بیت کی ضرو رت ہے
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