Muslim Scholars' statements about the Caliphate during the uprisings in 2011: Mini Documentary
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thedude
Councller (250+ posts)
Re: EXCELLENT compilation
how about something even better than khilafah ...
UNITED NATIONS: the khilafah of "humanity" instead of "division of humanity into superior humans (muslims) and inferior humans (non-muslims)"
the system (UN) is there, it just needs more strength and respect from "both" sides
how about something even better than khilafah ...
UNITED NATIONS: the khilafah of "humanity" instead of "division of humanity into superior humans (muslims) and inferior humans (non-muslims)"
the system (UN) is there, it just needs more strength and respect from "both" sides
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iaw-uae
Citizen
Re: EXCELLENT compilation
Sorry brother I would disagree with you, nothing is better and history has it that never ever came a system better than the Khilafah system. Let me clarify that the Khilafah system I speak of is the Khilafah of the Four rightly guided Caliphs of Islam.
In the Sharia' everyone has rights that are given and ordained by ALLAH. Unfortunately, we the humans are corrupt so much that we rather argue more of them, instead of implementing them as divine decree of the ALL MIGHTY.
Sorry brother I would disagree with you, nothing is better and history has it that never ever came a system better than the Khilafah system. Let me clarify that the Khilafah system I speak of is the Khilafah of the Four rightly guided Caliphs of Islam.
In the Sharia' everyone has rights that are given and ordained by ALLAH. Unfortunately, we the humans are corrupt so much that we rather argue more of them, instead of implementing them as divine decree of the ALL MIGHTY.
thedude
Councller (250+ posts)
Re: EXCELLENT compilation
Bro let me tell you the reality of the period of Khilafah of the Four rightly guided Caliphs of Islam:
Abu Bakr: deceased in office (no problem)
Umar: assassinated
Usman: assassinated
Ali: assassinated
This is the reality of your "nothing is better in history than this" where the assassination rate of the Head of State is 75% ... I'm not interested in that kind of system and there have definitely been systems in the world today where citizens enjoy equal or better human rights and the assassination rate of the Head of State is zero for many decades ... (and it also has a name for it, it's called GENUINE DEMOCRACY, not to be confused with the so-called crap democracy of you-know-which-country)
NOTE: I don't have a problem with Khilafah per se ... if majority of muslims want that, have at it ... I just think today's world issues have mostly to do with economics, human-rights, etc and very less to do with religion or idealogy ... and i think those who try to connect the two are living in la la land
Bro let me tell you the reality of the period of Khilafah of the Four rightly guided Caliphs of Islam:
Abu Bakr: deceased in office (no problem)
Umar: assassinated
Usman: assassinated
Ali: assassinated
This is the reality of your "nothing is better in history than this" where the assassination rate of the Head of State is 75% ... I'm not interested in that kind of system and there have definitely been systems in the world today where citizens enjoy equal or better human rights and the assassination rate of the Head of State is zero for many decades ... (and it also has a name for it, it's called GENUINE DEMOCRACY, not to be confused with the so-called crap democracy of you-know-which-country)
NOTE: I don't have a problem with Khilafah per se ... if majority of muslims want that, have at it ... I just think today's world issues have mostly to do with economics, human-rights, etc and very less to do with religion or idealogy ... and i think those who try to connect the two are living in la la land
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1 ummah
Councller (250+ posts)
Re: EXCELLENT compilation
four american presidents assassinated, uk pm...it hapens every where , n wat about peace n justice these kalifs were successful in maintaining ??
the point is islam is a complete system,obligatory,its eco, social,...systems r the one who maintain balnce n justice NO CAPITALIST DEMOCRACY!!
four american presidents assassinated, uk pm...it hapens every where , n wat about peace n justice these kalifs were successful in maintaining ??
the point is islam is a complete system,obligatory,its eco, social,...systems r the one who maintain balnce n justice NO CAPITALIST DEMOCRACY!!
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al-boriqee
Citizen
Re: EXCELLENT compilation
tsuperior humans of UN are the "first world" nations and the inferior humans are the "third world" nations
The Khilaafah system is based on the conceptual implementation of justice, which is a concept that the leaders in the non-muslim world cannot allow to exist for obvious reasons.
tsuperior humans of UN are the "first world" nations and the inferior humans are the "third world" nations
The Khilaafah system is based on the conceptual implementation of justice, which is a concept that the leaders in the non-muslim world cannot allow to exist for obvious reasons.
al-boriqee
Citizen
Re: EXCELLENT compilation
this is a poor methodology to use as a way to make judgment of a system. The Caliphal system spans 12 hundred years thus marking down that 75 percent to about 3 percent, which is most likely less than the rate of assassinations held in democracies if you want to get technical, however i find it of poor academic use to utilize this as an issue to judge the basis of systems.
Actually, the implementation of the shariah of Islam has major input on the economic system as well as the the rights of other upon yourself, the rights of yourself upon others, the rights of the state over you, and the rights of yourself over the state. In other words, Islam has an extremely intricate system of how rights are to be understood and actualized and it is much more detailed than the current UN understanding of rights as their social doctrine on the topic is very dry, and can be oppressive.
this is a poor methodology to use as a way to make judgment of a system. The Caliphal system spans 12 hundred years thus marking down that 75 percent to about 3 percent, which is most likely less than the rate of assassinations held in democracies if you want to get technical, however i find it of poor academic use to utilize this as an issue to judge the basis of systems.
Actually, the implementation of the shariah of Islam has major input on the economic system as well as the the rights of other upon yourself, the rights of yourself upon others, the rights of the state over you, and the rights of yourself over the state. In other words, Islam has an extremely intricate system of how rights are to be understood and actualized and it is much more detailed than the current UN understanding of rights as their social doctrine on the topic is very dry, and can be oppressive.
Ehraz
MPA (400+ posts)
Re: EXCELLENT compilation
In this sense, also a Muslim country is basically a secular state, in the sense that the state constitution absolutely no difference between a Muslim and non-Muslim does in terms of the fundamental rights of citizens.
The top priority for every state, according to the teachings of Islam, is absolute righteousness.
Allah says in Quran: "O ye who believe! be steadfast in the cause of Allah, bearing witness in equity; and let not a people’s enmity incite you to act otherwise than with justice. Be always just, that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah. Surely, Allah is aware of what you do."(5:9)
At the time of Holy Prophet Muhammad(saw) religion and state were intertwined because of the prevailing conditions during a certain time together. But this is not a requirement. A unity of politics and religion, writes that Islam is not available. The Holy Quran says: " Verily, Allah commands you to make over the trusts to those entitled to them, and that, when you judge between men, you judge with justice. And surely excellent is that with which Allah admonishes you! Allah is All-Hearing, All-Seeing. O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey His Messenger and those who are in authority among you. And if you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger if you are believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is best and most commendable in the end." (4:59-60)
According to these verses democracy is indeed a possible form of government. Specifically, it says "trusteeship" to hand over the business of government to those who are worthy. People should elect such people who can assure that Justice will prevail.
I disagree with your statement. First, it should be noted that the concept of a so-called "Islamic State" in Quran does not occur. The Holy Quran lays down the guidelines for only one State, without mentioning religion. These guidelines are for all citizens equally, regardless of their religious affiliation.
In this sense, also a Muslim country is basically a secular state, in the sense that the state constitution absolutely no difference between a Muslim and non-Muslim does in terms of the fundamental rights of citizens.
The top priority for every state, according to the teachings of Islam, is absolute righteousness.
Allah says in Quran: "O ye who believe! be steadfast in the cause of Allah, bearing witness in equity; and let not a people’s enmity incite you to act otherwise than with justice. Be always just, that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah. Surely, Allah is aware of what you do."(5:9)
At the time of Holy Prophet Muhammad(saw) religion and state were intertwined because of the prevailing conditions during a certain time together. But this is not a requirement. A unity of politics and religion, writes that Islam is not available. The Holy Quran says: " Verily, Allah commands you to make over the trusts to those entitled to them, and that, when you judge between men, you judge with justice. And surely excellent is that with which Allah admonishes you! Allah is All-Hearing, All-Seeing. O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey His Messenger and those who are in authority among you. And if you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger if you are believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is best and most commendable in the end." (4:59-60)
According to these verses democracy is indeed a possible form of government. Specifically, it says "trusteeship" to hand over the business of government to those who are worthy. People should elect such people who can assure that Justice will prevail.
thedude
Councller (250+ posts)
Re: EXCELLENT compilation
If you care to check the post to which I responded, he/she specifically pointed out 'the caliphate of the FOUR RIGHTLY GUIDED'
If you want me to consider there rest of the ~1200 tyrant years, in which Abbasids took out the corpses of dead Ummayyads and lashed them in public, and almost every new caliph tortured, maimed, killed, his enemies, if not rolling in a pool of public money and gold, and then the Ottomans caliphs would kill their brothers and fathers to consolidate their powers, and so on and so forth (the list is endless) ... I am more than happy to reveal the dirty laundry of those ~1200 years in public
That's why 99% muslims talking about Restoration of Khilafah don't wanna talk about any time period other than that of the 'FOUR RIGHTLY GUIDED' (and sometimes including the time of Umar bin Abdul Aziz, who by the way was also poisoned in office and that increases the assassination rate to 80% lolz) and that's where the 75% percent assassination rate comes into the picture.
So you make up your mind:
- take all ~1200 years as a model of Caliphate and get the thrashing from literally every other political system in the world
- take the time-period of only the four rightly guided as the Caliphate and accept the 75% assassination rate as the correct figure
As for the general objection of "assassination rate as a poor metric to judge a political system":
- First of all it's a very valid metric to see if a political system is workable or not. At 75% it's one of the most important metrics to judge the effectiveness of a political system. If democracy had produced 75% assassination rate, it would've been wiped out long ago from the face of the earth. The only valid objection is that this rate is calculated from only 4 data points (the four caliphs) and this many data points is statistically not enough to predict the success of the system. But my response to that is, now you wanna talk about statistics and accurately establishing the success/failure rate of the system? but when you wanna quote good bits out of that period, then '4 caliphs' is all it takes to conclude that it is the best system in the world. See the double standard?
- and second of all, Caliphate proponents (or propagandists I shall say) don't just consider that period as a "workable system", they call it "quite literally the perfect system in the world ever" (perfect as in from the "rightly guided" and therefore needs to be followed to the tee) ... the latter is a much stronger claim ... and you should know better that the stronger the claim is, the easier it is to point out flaws in it (and that's why assassination rate metric is more than enough to refute the claim). And that's the difference between the proponents of Caliphate and the proponents of Democracy. The proponents of Democracy don't make claims of such out-of-control grandeur. They only call it a "workable system that constantly needs monitoring and improvement". In fact, many call it "lesser of all evils" meaning it's still a very imperfect system. Once you admit you're dealing with an imperfect system and are willing to fix it if you see something wrong with it, it's very hard to beat that. But the problem with Caliphate proponents is that they can't afford to call it a "LESS THAN PERFECT" system cz otherwise it loses being the "RIGHTLY GUIDED" system.
P.S.: After watching the 5 minutes of the Tahir-ul-Qadri video posted below, I agree with him. It doesn't make any sense to talk of 'need to restore Caliphate' without first clearly defining what Caliphate is:
- If Caliphate is "safety and security and justice for every individual" then what's the difference b/w a working Democracy and Caliphate?
- If Caliphate is "selection instead of election" then the question is: was selection the reason for safety, security and justice in that era? are you sure election cannot do that? do you have any arguments to back up your claim?
- If Caliphate is "culture of that era: camels instead of cars, date-palm trees and mud-houses" then the discussion is over already
- If Caliphate is "following Quran and Prophets teachings" then again, you need democracy (i.e., willingness of the people) to put it into law, so again it's the democracy (will of the people) that would enable that, where is the caliphate then?
- If Caliphate is "all muslim countries unite", then first we already have OIC, what you're essentially asking is OIC should have more power over individual countries, right? even for that you need willingness of all participating countries, which is a form of democracy but at the level of the countries. And if any country's people (Turkey let's say) don't want to take dictation from OIC then you can't do anything about it. So again democracy wins. And also what is the point of uniting muslim countries? what is the need for that? (to stop drone attacks in Pakistan? which can easily be stopped if there is a genuine democracy in pakistan alone, no need for other muslim countries)
- If Caliphate is "the magic wand that would rid us of corrupt politicians, bureaucracy, courts, police, etc etc etc" then you're living in la la land ... magic wands don't exist in reality, the only thing that exists is "effort", "hard work", and "patience" to reach your goal. And by effort and hard work I mean trying to understanding the problem, educating yourself, non-violent activism for your rights, etc, essentially using your brain and your body instead of your emotions.
If you care to check the post to which I responded, he/she specifically pointed out 'the caliphate of the FOUR RIGHTLY GUIDED'
If you want me to consider there rest of the ~1200 tyrant years, in which Abbasids took out the corpses of dead Ummayyads and lashed them in public, and almost every new caliph tortured, maimed, killed, his enemies, if not rolling in a pool of public money and gold, and then the Ottomans caliphs would kill their brothers and fathers to consolidate their powers, and so on and so forth (the list is endless) ... I am more than happy to reveal the dirty laundry of those ~1200 years in public
That's why 99% muslims talking about Restoration of Khilafah don't wanna talk about any time period other than that of the 'FOUR RIGHTLY GUIDED' (and sometimes including the time of Umar bin Abdul Aziz, who by the way was also poisoned in office and that increases the assassination rate to 80% lolz) and that's where the 75% percent assassination rate comes into the picture.
So you make up your mind:
- take all ~1200 years as a model of Caliphate and get the thrashing from literally every other political system in the world
- take the time-period of only the four rightly guided as the Caliphate and accept the 75% assassination rate as the correct figure
As for the general objection of "assassination rate as a poor metric to judge a political system":
- First of all it's a very valid metric to see if a political system is workable or not. At 75% it's one of the most important metrics to judge the effectiveness of a political system. If democracy had produced 75% assassination rate, it would've been wiped out long ago from the face of the earth. The only valid objection is that this rate is calculated from only 4 data points (the four caliphs) and this many data points is statistically not enough to predict the success of the system. But my response to that is, now you wanna talk about statistics and accurately establishing the success/failure rate of the system? but when you wanna quote good bits out of that period, then '4 caliphs' is all it takes to conclude that it is the best system in the world. See the double standard?
- and second of all, Caliphate proponents (or propagandists I shall say) don't just consider that period as a "workable system", they call it "quite literally the perfect system in the world ever" (perfect as in from the "rightly guided" and therefore needs to be followed to the tee) ... the latter is a much stronger claim ... and you should know better that the stronger the claim is, the easier it is to point out flaws in it (and that's why assassination rate metric is more than enough to refute the claim). And that's the difference between the proponents of Caliphate and the proponents of Democracy. The proponents of Democracy don't make claims of such out-of-control grandeur. They only call it a "workable system that constantly needs monitoring and improvement". In fact, many call it "lesser of all evils" meaning it's still a very imperfect system. Once you admit you're dealing with an imperfect system and are willing to fix it if you see something wrong with it, it's very hard to beat that. But the problem with Caliphate proponents is that they can't afford to call it a "LESS THAN PERFECT" system cz otherwise it loses being the "RIGHTLY GUIDED" system.
P.S.: After watching the 5 minutes of the Tahir-ul-Qadri video posted below, I agree with him. It doesn't make any sense to talk of 'need to restore Caliphate' without first clearly defining what Caliphate is:
- If Caliphate is "safety and security and justice for every individual" then what's the difference b/w a working Democracy and Caliphate?
- If Caliphate is "selection instead of election" then the question is: was selection the reason for safety, security and justice in that era? are you sure election cannot do that? do you have any arguments to back up your claim?
- If Caliphate is "culture of that era: camels instead of cars, date-palm trees and mud-houses" then the discussion is over already
- If Caliphate is "following Quran and Prophets teachings" then again, you need democracy (i.e., willingness of the people) to put it into law, so again it's the democracy (will of the people) that would enable that, where is the caliphate then?
- If Caliphate is "all muslim countries unite", then first we already have OIC, what you're essentially asking is OIC should have more power over individual countries, right? even for that you need willingness of all participating countries, which is a form of democracy but at the level of the countries. And if any country's people (Turkey let's say) don't want to take dictation from OIC then you can't do anything about it. So again democracy wins. And also what is the point of uniting muslim countries? what is the need for that? (to stop drone attacks in Pakistan? which can easily be stopped if there is a genuine democracy in pakistan alone, no need for other muslim countries)
- If Caliphate is "the magic wand that would rid us of corrupt politicians, bureaucracy, courts, police, etc etc etc" then you're living in la la land ... magic wands don't exist in reality, the only thing that exists is "effort", "hard work", and "patience" to reach your goal. And by effort and hard work I mean trying to understanding the problem, educating yourself, non-violent activism for your rights, etc, essentially using your brain and your body instead of your emotions.
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1 ummah
Councller (250+ posts)
Re: EXCELLENT compilation
brother i dont think one can correct u as someone who knows all and knows nothing can only get hadayah from Allah,and thats all i wud pray for
in case u r mulim, all i wud say is.. it is obligation upon us to implement sharia,under 1 leader, and spread it to the world.
besides u didnt answer my question
and did u ever read about public problems of rotti,kapra makan,did khulafa e rashideen(or even the laters) did sumthin NATO,U.S,INDIA,ISRAEL ....do with muslims in lands they have occupied??
and we learn from history,and as our beloved prophet (s.a.w) said again khilafah will be established on footsteps of nabowat- khilafa minhaj al naboowah!
brother i dont think one can correct u as someone who knows all and knows nothing can only get hadayah from Allah,and thats all i wud pray for
in case u r mulim, all i wud say is.. it is obligation upon us to implement sharia,under 1 leader, and spread it to the world.
besides u didnt answer my question
and did u ever read about public problems of rotti,kapra makan,did khulafa e rashideen(or even the laters) did sumthin NATO,U.S,INDIA,ISRAEL ....do with muslims in lands they have occupied??
and we learn from history,and as our beloved prophet (s.a.w) said again khilafah will be established on footsteps of nabowat- khilafa minhaj al naboowah!
atensari
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
atensari
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Bernard Henri Levy - French JEW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Henri_Levy
about Israel:
about Islam:
What is he doing in Libya, helping Libya or helping himself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Henri_Levy
about Israel:
about Islam:
What is he doing in Libya, helping Libya or helping himself:
1 ummah
Councller (250+ posts)
Re: EXCELLENT compilation
the ultimate form of islam prophet(p.b.u.h) left us with and khulafa carried was an islamic state!!
islamic state means
ur economic system has no interest anywhere,ur public properties(resources)(hukm:The Muslims are partners in three, water, pastures and fire
social system of islam ends fahashi,teaches brotherhood...
education system is not based on u.s aid conditions...
foreign policy is to protect muslims and dignity of islam,preaching islam,jihad,treaties
the ultimate form of islam prophet(p.b.u.h) left us with and khulafa carried was an islamic state!!
islamic state means
ur economic system has no interest anywhere,ur public properties(resources)(hukm:The Muslims are partners in three, water, pastures and fire
(Ahmed, ibn Maja)
r not privatized,land is not wasted(hukm:if some1 holds land without using anyway,and another person come and utilizes it,he becomes owner),no tax except the few zakat,khiraj,usher,jizyah,fai( currently there r 300+ tax levied!),it is governments responsibility to provide job or if 1 doest,his expenses r goverments resposibility and r PROVIDED IN REALITY! social system of islam ends fahashi,teaches brotherhood...
education system is not based on u.s aid conditions...
foreign policy is to protect muslims and dignity of islam,preaching islam,jihad,treaties
1 ummah
Councller (250+ posts)
Re: EXCELLENT compilation
pls read following details of islamic system
economy
[url]http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/the-khilafah/economy
judiciary
http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/the-khilafah/judiciary
education[URL="http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/the-khilafah/education"]
[url]http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/the-khilafah/education
non-muslims
[url]http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/the-khilafah/non-muslims
foreign policy
http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/the-khilafah/foreign-policy[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]
pls read following details of islamic system
economy
[url]http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/the-khilafah/economy
judiciary
http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/the-khilafah/judiciary
education[URL="http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/the-khilafah/education"]
[url]http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/the-khilafah/education
non-muslims
[url]http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/the-khilafah/non-muslims
foreign policy
http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/the-khilafah/foreign-policy[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]
1 ummah
Councller (250+ posts)
oh! so gud for us! this shows they plan and Allah plans!!!!
as the last sentence..israel rule will last 4 weak sumthin!! and yes i can agree with this as i believe(indicated from prophesies) islamic state will rise after world war!!
1 ummah
Councller (250+ posts)
Re: EXCELLENT compilation
i dont know y ppl get confused, somthing tahir qadri said,first thing daleel for 1 islamic state(as he has issue wityh calling it khilafat) is wat prophet did,and sahaba followed, hadith in muslim:wen bayah is given to 2 khulafa,kill the second,mentioned n explained in video too(thread)
as far as parliment = majlis e shura is concerened,
1st parliments main work is deciding rules, ur parliment allows interest based loan agreements! allies with NARTO,support kufars, which is haram many verses Allah WARNS not to be friend with YAHOOD O NISARA,not to share secrets.....
in islam majlis has difrnt role,and khalifa is not bound to do wat majlis advises (there r many evidence)
yes selection of khalifa will b based on methods adopted by khulafa e rashideen,
but again it gives daleel 4 one ruler of muslims, as hazrat ali fought and did not divided muslim lands into two countries??
the only rezn iz obv mentioned hukm
i dont know y ppl get confused, somthing tahir qadri said,first thing daleel for 1 islamic state(as he has issue wityh calling it khilafat) is wat prophet did,and sahaba followed, hadith in muslim:wen bayah is given to 2 khulafa,kill the second,mentioned n explained in video too(thread)
as far as parliment = majlis e shura is concerened,
1st parliments main work is deciding rules, ur parliment allows interest based loan agreements! allies with NARTO,support kufars, which is haram many verses Allah WARNS not to be friend with YAHOOD O NISARA,not to share secrets.....
in islam majlis has difrnt role,and khalifa is not bound to do wat majlis advises (there r many evidence)
yes selection of khalifa will b based on methods adopted by khulafa e rashideen,
but again it gives daleel 4 one ruler of muslims, as hazrat ali fought and did not divided muslim lands into two countries??
the only rezn iz obv mentioned hukm
Khulfah e Rashida kae baad , harat Umar bin Abdul aziz r.a ke elwa , KITnAE KHULFA A GAE?
WE USUALLY CALL ALL THE MONARCHS/KINGS AS KHALIFAHs......
OTTOMAN EMPIRE KA LAST HEIR BHI CALIPAH THAE , POINT IS , THESE SCHOLARS WERE ALL OUT THERE , except few , LIKE Imam Abu Hanifah , HOW MANY WENT AGAINST KINGS TO DEPLOY CALIPHATE??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
ye na mullaon sa hona hae , na paid uprising sae ,
Hota wohi hae jo Allah ko manzoor hota ha ,
RAmember :
Hoti hae Mujahid KI Azan aur....................
1 ummah
Councller (250+ posts)
u know scholars understood better thn us..i think as i said islam was implemented though the method of selecting khalifa was wrong and eve hzrt omer bin abdul aziz didnot rectified it!!
so the point is prophet cammanded to obey khalifa as long as he implements islam and doesnt commits kufr buwa(open clear cut kufr)
aj ke din b aesay loog han jo is daleel ko zerdari/musharf ko obey krnay k liyae use krtay hain:(,ignoring the condition of implementing islam
yes wat Allah wills will happen,but we will be questioned for wat we did! and we r not allowed to sit n wait but reject kufr system n demand islam,account rulers !!
