Mounting foreign debt may need IMFs helping hand

[gazoomartian]

Nooooooo.... As much as I hate the IMF, lets not go overboard with the blame-game.

Pakistan is in this mess because of its TRADE DEFICIT (IMPORTING more than EXPORTING)


& those policies are still in place (importing more than exporting). If Pakistan doesnt get the financing, it will default, sending a shockwave into the forex, bonds, equities and commodities market of the whole region! I have said before that Pakistan SHOULD go bankrupt, balance its budget and use Gold to back its currency.

Does Pak even have any gold? Or it all got shipped to the basements of Zaradri's foreign palaces.

 

[Temojin]

Abhi waqt hai.. lekin zyada nahi.. 6 months ago I felt Pakistan's got 2 years. I still feel 18 months.. Lekin I am feeling that Pakistan will get a loan, and the can will get kicked down the road again. Lekin who's gonna give a loan..? IMF? IMF is already going to get overwhelmed soon in the EURO & Asian crisis..


You know yesterday I sat with someone who had a Masters in Islamic Studies and we discussed the matters of RIBA and lending/borrowing. Key question was why should I lend you anything if there is no incentive for me? And after much debate, we agreed that if the "incentive" is paid in some other commodity, its not RIBA. For eg
Suppose 1gm of Gold = 2gms of Silver.
If I borrow 1 gm of Gold from you for 1 year and return back 3gms of Silver back after a year, thats NOT RIBA as the commodity used to settle the payment is different. From a Monetary point of view, there is an amazing stability/risk-aversion built in this concept.

RAB mein goud mein bitha k samjhaya hai hum ko. Ullu k pathay hain HUM. ULLA... I tell you.. ULLU. I just hope and wish that I teach my children whatever I learn and understand so that they dont have to reinvent the wheels.

I will discuss it with my friend who is not only masters in Islamic studies but masters in arabic as well as a fazil of dars e Nizami too (9 years of rigorous study upon deen along with daura e Hadith at the end). He knows how to take sheer criticism as well, at least in my case.

By the by, I think Islam doesn't promote the concept of having any incentives while lending anyone. The incentive is judgement-day-based. My concern, however, is if I lend someone Rs. 100,000 today, should I be getting back the same 100,000 after 6 months or more due to depreciation in the value of the rupee. So it makes sense while having lent in paper currency but not metals which retain their value.

I am in a rut since some years, pray I get out of it and only then shall I be able to work upon it on a more concrete basis. I am planning to get some of Allama Asad's papers and to translate them and for that matter, thinking about contacting Orya maqbool in a few days' time. Once (and IF) I get them, I will send them to you as well for your feedback. The only hitch at the moment is where I am stuck so lets pray and see.

 

[AsifAmeer]

no solid verification State Bank stands at around 65Tonnes of Gold in reserve.

Does Pak even have any gold? Or it all got shipped to the basements of Zaradri's foreign palaces.

 

[AsifAmeer]

>>The incentive is judgement-day-based

Aysa kese ho sakta hai? Imagine a Judicial System based on this concept, imagine a Economic system based on this concept..


Haan tumhari baat bilkul theek hai k during inflation its the lender at loss and during deflation its the debtor at loss.

Lekin without an incentive, we as humans IN GENERAL wont do it! Incentives work even on babies! A baby gets his hand put on a warm plate, and he pulls it away, u offer candy/toys in exchange for something and babies respond. Its human being by design.

Do let me know what you find as well.

I will discuss it with my friend who is not only masters in Islamic studies but masters in arabic as well as a fazil of dars e Nizami too (9 years of rigorous study upon deen along with daura e Hadith at the end). He knows how to take sheer criticism as well, at least in my case.

By the by, I think Islam doesn't promote the concept of having any incentives while lending anyone. The incentive is judgement-day-based. My concern, however, is if I lend someone Rs. 100,000 today, should I be getting back the same 100,000 after 6 months or more due to depreciation in the value of the rupee. So it makes sense while having lent in paper currency but not metals which retain their value.

I am in a rut since some years, pray I get out of it and only then shall I be able to work upon it on a more concrete basis. I am planning to get some of Allama Asad's papers and to translate them and for that matter, thinking about contacting Orya maqbool in a few days' time. Once (and IF) I get them, I will send them to you as well for your feedback. The only hitch at the moment is where I am stuck so lets pray and see.

 

[gazoomartian]

I will discuss it with my friend who is not only masters in Islamic studies but masters in arabic as well as a fazil of dars e Nizami too (9 years of rigorous study upon deen along with daura e Hadith at the end). He knows how to take sheer criticism as well, at least in my case.

By the by, I think Islam doesn't promote the concept of having any incentives while lending anyone. The incentive is judgement-day-based. My concern, however, is if I lend someone Rs. 100,000 today, should I be getting back the same 100,000 after 6 months or more due to depreciation in the value of the rupee. So it makes sense while having lent in paper currency but not metals which retain their value.

I am in a rut since some years, pray I get out of it and only then shall I be able to work upon it on a more concrete basis. I am planning to get some of Allama Asad's papers and to translate them and for that matter, thinking about contacting Orya maqbool in a few days' time. Once (and IF) I get them, I will send them to you as well for your feedback. The only hitch at the moment is where I am stuck so lets pray and see.

something out of my heart, dont ask me to explain, how I got this idea:

depreciation of money occurs in a country that has riba-based commerce. In an Islamic system we have few things that a Muslim traders must do:

1. Base his commerce on riba-free system
2. Knows that hoarding of goods (specially food) is a no-no in Islam
3. Honesty is obvious in weight and measure
4. Extreme profiteering is non-existent

An iPod (8Gig) is being sold for on average of $199.99 in Canada. I am willing to bet the landing cost to Apple is no more than $15 - $20 per unit since they buy containers-full from China manufacturers. In West this is 'market economy' meaning what ever market can afford to pay - we shall charge. This is what causes the banknote to depreciate. In Islam we call it 'extreme profiteering' - a practice strictly forbidden in Islam. Lack of extreme profiteering will keep money value somewhat stable.
​

I hope I have made sense. I have absolutely no education in economics. :biggthumpup:

 

[gazoomartian]

no solid verification State Bank stands at around 65Tonnes of Gold in reserve.

I hope diabolic Gold Finger does not read your post otherwise we have to hire James Bond 007 to recover the loot. [hilar]

 

[Saboo]

Not clear at all.......Instruction is quite vague, names are never mentioned.......(bigsmile)

Well 22 is two little ducks! I know that much, you can guess the rest!(bigsmile)

 

[Temojin]

>>The incentive is judgement-day-based

Aysa kese ho sakta hai? Imagine a Judicial System based on this concept, imagine a Economic system based on this concept..


Haan tumhari baat bilkul theek hai k during inflation its the lender at loss and during deflation its the debtor at loss.

Lekin without an incentive, we as humans IN GENERAL wont do it! Incentives work even on babies! A baby gets his hand put on a warm plate, and he pulls it away, u offer candy/toys in exchange for something and babies respond. Its human being by design.

Do let me know what you find as well.

See there are two parts to our life, rights of Allah and rights of people. If I don't offer namaz (which I should) and don't tell it to anybody in order to make him/her a witness, Allah will forgive me if Allah wants (Allah will forgive even if I make a witness in some cases) but if I loot someone, it will not be forgiven until that person forgives me.

Now, this epitomizes the essence as we can't hurt people, their feelings, their interests in any way so the person who has been granted power, money or luxury in any other form can share it with other fellow humans without expecting good in return from them but Allah. Yes! The incentive is there. Want an emerald bed in a Sapphire bedroom? Or a pedestrain of rubies leading towards a house made of jade and gold? The issue is that we don't believe in the afterlife as much as we should actually. We go for all evils just because of this weakness. If we absolutely are sure about what we are going to reap afterwards, we wouldn't be complaining much and serving more. So if we believe in Allah and what has Allah told through Messenger Muhammad pbuh , and we believe that Allah being one is the absolute truth, the stuff about emerald beds etc. has also been told by the same truthful Individual pbuh upon orders of Allah so it is the absolute truth too. Even if it was a simple bed in a cozy environment far from the reach of any bad happening, it would suffice and then time wouldn't end and even being stung by a bee for an endless amount of time wouldn't be a good experience at all, talk about what actually is going to happen.

Yes! I'll surely share anything I get my hands upon.

 

[ConcernedPaki]

For a $180 million, you can have my citizenship! I always wanted to buy an Island!

My friend, by 180 million, I meant arranging 180 million visas for 180 million Pakistanis!! Given the economic outlook predicted, perhaps it'll be handy to have a visa in your pocket. If I had $180 million, I would not be wasting my time doing a PhD! (bigsmile)

 

[AsifAmeer]

U knew it I would reply you on this one.. hena?

>>depreciation of money occurs in a country that has riba-based commerce
Nope!

inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon

Inflation is Monetary (i.e. A Central Bank created phenomenon). You can have a 100% RIBA-Free Economy and still have Hyperinflation.


>>2. Knows that hoarding of goods (specially food) is a no-no in Islam
Hoarding is a symptom of Inflation and Price-control (read 2nd para)


>>3. Honesty is obvious in weight and measure
Yup! And its called "Branding a business"

>>4. Extreme profits on basic Medicinal and necessaries is immoral.
You see high profit margins are a guaranteed invitation to competition. Try buying gasoline at $4.00/Gallon and try selling it for $5. You wont be able to sell it. Why? because there is NO buyer at 5.. Prices are only the messenger in an economy.

Gazo, I got an excellent COMIC book on Economics. Its 1 of my favorite ECON books of all time. I think I have it in audio format. U want it? The hardcover has been lent out (interest-free) which I dont know if it will ever be returned now... lol

something out of my heart, dont ask me to explain, how I got this idea:

depreciation of money occurs in a country that has riba-based commerce. In an Islamic system we have few things that a Muslim traders must do:

1. Base his commerce on riba-free system
2. Knows that hoarding of goods (specially food) is a no-no in Islam
3. Honesty is obvious in weight and measure
4. Extreme profiteering is non-existent

An iPod (8Gig) is being sold for on average of $199.99 in Canada. I am willing to bet the landing cost to Apple is no more than $15 - $20 per unit since they buy containers-full from China manufacturers. In West this is 'market economy' meaning what ever market can afford to pay - we shall charge. This is what causes the banknote to depreciate. In Islam we call it 'extreme profiteering' - a practice strictly forbidden in Islam. Lack of extreme profiteering will keep money value somewhat stable.
​

I hope I have made sense. I have absolutely no education in economics. :biggthumpup:

 

[gazoomartian]

U knew it I would reply you on this one.. hena?

>>depreciation of money occurs in a country that has riba-based commerce
Nope!



Inflation is Monetary (i.e. A Central Bank created phenomenon). You can have a 100% RIBA-Free Economy and still have Hyperinflation.


>>2. Knows that hoarding of goods (specially food) is a no-no in Islam
Hoarding is a symptom of Inflation and Price-control (read 2nd para)


>>3. Honesty is obvious in weight and measure
Yup! And its called "Branding a business"

>>4. Extreme profits on basic Medicinal and necessaries is immoral.
You see high profit margins are a guaranteed invitation to competition. Try buying gasoline at $4.00/Gallon and try selling it for $5. You wont be able to sell it. Why? because there is NO buyer at 5.. Prices are only the messenger in an economy.

Gazo, I got an excellent COMIC book on Economics. Its 1 of my favorite ECON books of all time. I think I have it in audio format. U want it? The hardcover has been lent out (interest-free) which I dont know if it will ever be returned now... lol

ok send me that

 

[AsifAmeer]

I know exactly what u meant.. and I know exactly what I said.. Just wanted to give a twist!

Doin ur Phd huh...? I dont believe in Academic Institution anymore.. I get better quality education from Amazon, Technical/Macro/Commodities/Bond Traders blogs.

I cant believe I wasted 4 years and many thousands for that worthless piece of paper.

Took me a year to UNLEARN all the trash-talking they had taught me during that time...

Drop out from PhD. Use that money to buy land with fresh water reservoir and learn farming!

Or is your PhD in Med? Then learn about fixing gunshot wounds...

My friend, by 180 million, I meant arranging 180 million visas for 180 million Pakistanis!! Given the economic outlook predicted, perhaps it'll be handy to have a visa in your pocket. If I had $180 million, I would not be wasting my time doing a PhD! (bigsmile)

 

[AsifAmeer]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/65973532/...Why-It-Crashes-by-Peter-D-amp-Andrew-J-Schiff
[FONT='times new roman', 'new york', times, serif]
here ya go! You can go straight to the 1st chapter from where the comic stuff begins! Honestly, you can be an Economics Pro in less than 4 hours! And this is no exaggeration!

[/FONT]

ok send me that

[MENTION=28598]Vitamin_C[/MENTION] [MENTION=28792]Exquisite[/MENTION]

 

[ConcernedPaki]

I know exactly what u meant.. and I know exactly what I said.. Just wanted to give a twist!

Doin ur Phd huh...? I dont believe in Academic Institution anymore.. I get better quality education from Amazon, Technical/Macro/Commodities/Bond Traders blogs.

I cant believe I wasted 4 years and many thousands for that worthless piece of paper.

Took me a year to UNLEARN all the trash-talking they had taught me during that time...

Drop out from PhD. Use that money to buy land with fresh water reservoir and learn farming!

Or is your PhD in Med? Then learn about fixing gunshot wounds...

Well, I haven't spent a penny on my PhD since I was on a fellowship/research assistantship. So I can't use that money to invest. If I have learned something in PhD, its the virtues of patience, having to put up with my advisor. Ok, so you've been saying quite a few things about the gloomy picture of Pakistan's economy. Since I'm still a Paki, its my duty to strike back.

I was with a research organization in Bay Area last fall. I attended a meeting where the CEO announced the results of a quarter saying that we have earned $xx billion in revenue breaking our own record. And lo, the next thing he says is that we are putting a hiring freeze because we expect the world and US to do poorly! Its been in the news that the foreclosure fiasco is going to pick up considerably in the next few months. Half of the undergraduate population graduating this year will be unemployed or underemployed. The student loans in US have touched $1 trillion. Borrowing from China and the Fed has been increasing. Congress has voted to increase the debt ceiling. The number of Americans on food stamps has increased. All said, US is looking at troubling times ahead.

TAKE THAT, AMERICAN! (bigsmile)

 

[TruPakistani]

​

 

[AsifAmeer]

You are right! Receivables are counted as profits (receivables that Companies know are going to go sour). So sure.. there are record profits but the quality of equity on this balancesheet stinks. CEOs dont care! Central Bankers dont wanna admit it, Politicians dont wanna believe it.

And whatever you said about the American Economy is all correct. Why should I be upset at the truth? Heck.. it serves us right! We stopped being American (using the Constitution as toilet paper) and we ended up as promised.

Haan, if you laid your arguments against Libertarianism or the US Constitution, I would have felt the need to defend.

Whats your major in?

Well, I haven't spent a penny on my PhD since I was on a fellowship/research assistantship. So I can't use that money to invest. If I have learned something in PhD, its the virtues of patience, having to put up with my advisor. Ok, so you've been saying quite a few things about the gloomy picture of Pakistan's economy. Since I'm still a Paki, its my duty to strike back.

I was with a research organization in Bay Area last fall. I attended a meeting where the CEO announced the results of a quarter saying that we have earned $xx billion in revenue breaking our own record. And lo, the next thing he says is that we are putting a hiring freeze because we expect the world and US to do poorly! Its been in the news that the foreclosure fiasco is going to pick up considerably in the next few months. Half of the undergraduate population graduating this year will be unemployed or underemployed. The student loans in US have touched $1 trillion. Borrowing from China and the Fed has been increasing. Congress has voted to increase the debt ceiling. The number of Americans on food stamps has increased. All said, US is looking at troubling times ahead.

TAKE THAT, AMERICAN! (bigsmile)

 

[ARSHAD2011]

Why you want to buy an other island, why not pakistan.

Our corrupted leaders can seel.

for a $180 million, you can have my citizenship! I always wanted to buy an island!

 

[ConcernedPaki]

You are right! Receivables are counted as profits (receivables that Companies know are going to go sour). So sure.. there are record profits but the quality of equity on this balancesheet stinks. CEOs dont care! Central Bankers dont wanna admit it, Politicians dont wanna believe it.

And whatever you said about the American Economy is all correct. Why should I be upset at the truth? Heck.. it serves us right! We stopped being American (using the Constitution as toilet paper) and we ended up as promised.

Haan, if you laid your arguments against Libertarianism or the US Constitution, I would have felt the need to defend.

Whats your major in?

My major is Electrical Engineering. But I frequently dabble in politics, culture, sports, social issues and many other useless things. Hey, I am thinking about dealing in stocks. How much intelligence and time is required? I have abundance of one but dearth of the other. Guess which one! :)

 

[AsifAmeer]

>>Our corrupted leaders can seel.

Nope.. they arent your leaders. They are the contractors of the East India Company.. India got its freedom, Pakistan got these contractors.

Why you want to buy an other island, why not pakistan.

Our corrupted leaders can seel.

 

[AsifAmeer]

Stock trading involves risk. Risk of loosing your shorts, your house, your wife, your kids and sometimes life via medication. I maintain a single status policy.

You gotta have a strong understanding in Economic. If you truly enjoy this kinda work, then theres nothing better in this world. Ofcourse one always needs capital to start with.

My major is Electrical Engineering. But I frequently dabble in politics, culture, sports, social issues and many other useless things. Hey, I am thinking about dealing in stocks. How much intelligence and time is required? I have abundance of one but dearth of the other. Guess which one! :)