Lessons to Learn from India's Failure!!!!

[Heart]

A Must Listen BBC Audio Program - What are the reasons India was a shining star in the BRICS and now it is being questioned whether it is really a part of BRICS?

This program also has lessons for lovers of the current democratic style of government.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01568lr

Points from this 28 minutes audio - for those who donot think they should listen to the audio.

The Indian economy is stalling. It was one of the fastest growing economies in the world. Now growth has declined dramatically. China has outpaced India and Indias democracy is often blamed for slowing decisions and actions. Peter Day investigates what has caused the slowdown in the worlds largest democracy. Are the problems deeply rooted, or can they be quickly fixed?

Below are some of the comments from prominent people interviewed in the program.

A/ Professor Raguram Rajan - Chied Economic Advisor:
1/ We were growing at such a pace that we outran our institutions.
2/ We can grow like China provided we dont have the democracy constraints

B/ Kacharan Das - CEO, Procter and Gamble
1/ Environment Ministry does not agree with anything - Bureaucracy is at its heights. Manmohan Singh is just a technical person, he is not a leader who has the courage to jump in when needed.

C/ Pravin Chakroborty - Leader of some big organization - dont remember the name of the company
1/ The real issue is India itself. The problem is India.
2/ Democracy has let down India. In a democracy mega projects run into protests(here I would link it to the fate of Kalabagh Dam because of the very democracy that we have in Pakistan)
3/ India cannot be centrally controlled - There is no one language, no one religion, no one food item - We are one nation only because of Cricket and thats it.
4/ Whatever growth India has achieved, why has it not been able to lift 3/4th of its population above poverty? At any point in time the poverty ranges from 600 to 800 million people.

D/ Shaima Chaoudry from Tehelka Magazine
1/ Maoists insurgency is the surface of it. Beneath it is the many many layer of severly dispossessed people who are cooking under pressure and can blast of any time. This is not sustainable.

E/ R. Ranakuna, Economist at Tata Institute
1/ Poverty in India is linked to its love of the Caste System. India cannot erode poverty without doing away with the Caste System.Also Muslims in India are largely outside the growth benefits.
2/ 46% of the children in India are malnourished? Does that get reported in the Media. Because media is controlled by Corporate Houses who decide what to report based on the Image they want to portray.
3/ There is enormous poverty in India which is declining very slowly and there is enormous Injustice in India whic is rising rapidly. Hence at any point in time the dis balance is rising.

F/ Anand Mahindra, Chairman Mahindra and Mahindra
1/ India does not have the luxury to grow at the rates, developed economies grow. It has to grove in excess of 7% to come out of the vicious circle of poverty.
2/ India grew at a very fast pace but did not have proper roads and railway and other infrastructure to support it beyond a certain level. (This is what happenned to Pakistan also in the Musharraf Era - Not a single MW of power added during his time.)
3/ Is India Outside BRICS? It can come back to BRICS if it learns to Plan.

 

[Imranpak]

I would say that though both India and Pakistan have many problems but we are well ahead in dealing with them. Problem with India is the media that gives the impression of everything being so great.

Unlike Pak, India is to large a place to be controlled by one central government so the end of it in it's current form is inevitable. Bharat is a contradiction and full of poverty not a success as they seem to think.

A feel good campaign by NDTV type channels where Sachin is batting to save tiger's or build a 100 school's will simply get them nowhere. Anna Hazare's movement was interesting but that seems to have died down as well.

Most Indian's will never admit what one Pravin Chakraboarty has done so above that only Cricket unites them otherwise with different castes, languages and religions people in seperate region's have nothing common amongst them.

 

[gazoomartian]

I would say that though both India and Pakistan have many problems but we are well ahead in dealing with them. Problem with India is the media that gives the impression of everything being so great.

Unlike Pak, India is to large a place to be controlled by one central government so the end of it in it's current form is inevitable. Bharat is a contradiction and full of poverty not a success as they seem to think.

A feel good campaign by NDTV type channels where Sachin is batting to save tiger's or build a 100 school's will simply get them nowhere. Anna Hazare's movement was interesting but that seems to have died down as well.

Most Indian's will never admit what one Pravin Chakraboarty has done so above that only Cricket unites them otherwise with different castes, languages and religions people in seperate region's have nothing common amongst them.

secularism, Riba, and democracy is destroying 1.2 B people. Vast gap between rich elites and lowest cast people. India could become Endia in not so many years.

BUTwhat I would like to see, where are all the RAW agents now? Any comments from them [hilar][hilar]

 

[desicad]

secularism, Riba, and democracy is destroying 1.2 B people. Vast gap between rich elites and lowest cast people. India could become Endia in not so many years.

BUTwhat I would like to see, where are all the RAW agents now? Any comments from them [hilar][hilar]

chairman is dying to see comments from RAW agents...........:lol::lol::lol::lol:.........yeh to kamaal ho gayaa......[hilar][hilar].......

 

[gazoomartian]

desicad
Expert

[h=2] This message is hidden because desicad is on your ignore list. [/h]

(bigsmile)(bigsmile)....................

 

[chandbibi]

It is a good program, though nothing new is being said in it. I disagree with this P.chakravarthi, about there not being a single food item being in common. Moreover he forgets very conveniently, that he is sitting in a democracy, and hence can utter his communist fantasies. Also the caste system part is absolute BS. India gives reservations in education, and for securing jobs to those who come from the down-trodden classes. However it is also a stark reality, that these people cannot even make it to that level academically. Reminds me of the School drop outs in the United States.
We will grow at a slower pace in the near short term but that's how democracies do it. Our population has finally started declining although Indian muslims are yet to understand the benefits of a smaller family size ( thanks to democracy again). If we adopt strict population control measures, our numbers will suddenly start looking very attractive. Poverty will suddenly become a thing of the past. All this means we would have to curtail fundamental rights of human beings to propagate as per their will. Only India can learn from its failures because a lot of blood, sweat, and toil has gone into coming this far. The future may not be a super nova, but it is definitely not gloomy for us here in India.

 

[kkkkk]

India was never shining and will/can not in future as well. India is a thing of the past and not of future. Its socio-religious realities are too weak to stand the future. Israel or America may try to create a media image etc, but they cannot change ground realities for India.
Therefore India is bound to crumble. No miracle is awaited for India but chaos is certainly envolping it fast.

 

[desicad]

desicad
Expert

This message is hidden because desicad is on your ignore list.



(bigsmile)(bigsmile)....................

(bigsmile)(bigsmile)(bigsmile)........

 

[modern.fakir]

I would urge you to please consider this one of the several reports coming out of India on Dalits and the continued discrimination faced by the scheduled castes in India ..

http://idsn.org/fileadmin/user_folder/pdf/New_files/UN/UPR/UPR_India_2012_Recommendations.pdf

India gives reservations in education, and for securing jobs to those who come from the down-trodden classes. However it is also a stark reality, that these people cannot even make it to that level academically. Reminds me of the School drop outs in the United States.

Yeah but the real question is why are the downtrodden down there in the first place ??..So you mean to say that if those people are not fit academically then they deserve to be miserable all their lives ??

Also, highschool drop outs in the united states have a lot of options and DONT go around producing reports and social media websites highlighting their plight and discrimination from time eternity. GED high school diplomas and adult education are some of the options together with equitable labor laws. Also getting one with life WITHOUT facing discrimination and getting killed anytime a shadow of theirs falls on a person of a higher caste is another BIG FACTOR.

Indian muslims are yet to understand the benefits of a smaller family size ( thanks to democracy again).

Funny how you mention Indian democracy to highlight a secular mindset but YOUR comments go diametrically opposite and actually inline with Indian thinking. Indian Muslims are part and parcel of India. Their family size and birth rate is not much different than the dallit birth rate, but i guess since you see these two groups as partially different from mainstream "castes", you have seperated these groups as if they live on some other planet and propogate like rabbits and hence this needs to be curtailed. Does you democracy not afford a 13 % minority the right to propogate at will ?? ...Or is their a danger of this minority growing into a sizeable minority to the 25 - 30% range and causing another communal issue ?? (bigsmile)

If we adopt strict population control measures, our numbers will suddenly start looking very attractive. Poverty will suddenly become a thing of the past. All this means we would have to curtail fundamental rights of human beings to propagate as per their will.

Stricter population measures have not worked that well in China where it has now caused a demographic imbalance. In India where their is already a dire demographic imbalance in terms of female to male ratios, in some regions "polyandry" or "wife-sharing" is widely practiced apart from other forms of female abuse. On top of this if a poverty curtailment policy is adopted would only add to more chaos and misery and not in any kind of poverty reduction initiative.

China was able to implement this policy since it had built up a good manufacturing industrial base for its billion plus population which when looking at India is still a very long ways to go, if they ever get there looking at the current rate now moving close to the traditional "Hindu Growth Rate". At this growth rate people have usually suffered and the country is in no way moving towards industrialization. In such circumstances where welfare is drying up, jobs are vanishing on top of that if the people wont have a support system in CHILDREN then this will be a recipe for sure-shot disaster.

The future maybe whatever it holds, but some critical thinking is required before any policy can be put in place.

It is a good program, though nothing new is being said in it. I disagree with this P.chakravarthi, about there not being a single food item being in common. Moreover he forgets very conveniently, that he is sitting in a democracy, and hence can utter his communist fantasies. Also the caste system part is absolute BS. India gives reservations in education, and for securing jobs to those who come from the down-trodden classes. However it is also a stark reality, that these people cannot even make it to that level academically. Reminds me of the School drop outs in the United States.
We will grow at a slower pace in the near short term but that's how democracies do it. Our population has finally started declining although Indian muslims are yet to understand the benefits of a smaller family size ( thanks to democracy again). If we adopt strict population control measures, our numbers will suddenly start looking very attractive. Poverty will suddenly become a thing of the past. All this means we would have to curtail fundamental rights of human beings to propagate as per their will. Only India can learn from its failures because a lot of blood, sweat, and toil has gone into coming this far. The future may not be a super nova, but it is definitely not gloomy for us here in India.

 

[chandbibi]

They are given reservations to uplift themselves, Even muslims want to be classified as dalits, although Islam has no caste system on the face of it. Nobody deserves to be miserable but i can tell you this, that those who want to climb out of the well will do it at any cost. Then there are those who keep blaming others for their miseries, never analyzing why they never made the grade. This is not to say that people have not taken advantage of this reservation system. Many have and many do. However no matter how many reservations you get, ultimately making it in life depends on a person's capability, and dedication. It hurts a person who does not get admission in spite of securing 95% marks, while someone who has a reservation walks away with a medical seat at 45%. So what kind of system are we promoting here? One based on mediocrity or one based on calibre? But we have to bear the burden of the past, so for now this will stay in India.
School drop outs in the US cannot even write in English. Watch one bpo video made on india, where they are taught that you must treat the customer from the US as one who has the IQ of a Child. If India had a population of 330 million India would be the No 1 country of this world, not after 25 years or 50 years, but right away. But that is Utopia, and we can't ever be there unless India and Pakistan nuke each other. LOL. So if you guys wanna do it go ahead. You will be doing us a favour.

This shadow business doesn't exist anymore. Nobody gets killed because of their caste. Exceptions do exist of course, especially in north india, where honor killing is still prevalent. Other than that all your notions about sati, untouchability, widow re-marriage etc. are very old w.r.t modern day India. I am still not denying it may be existing in some small village somewhere. I am city born and bred, and from a very progressive background, so possibly i don't even come across this thing. But by and large we do not have any caste based discrimination in our society anymore.

Because of the Muslim population growth rate our latest census figures are delayed. The muslim population is not declining at the rate at which India's population is. Since they are supposed to be part and parcel of our population, they also have to do their bit in controlling the rampant population explosion. This is very education plays an important role. If you observe, educated people have just one or two kids while the lesser educated can have as many as 5-6-7 sometimes more than that like Laloo prasad. But laloo prasad is a M.A . LOL. I guess this theory got busted with him. Anyway in general educated people have lesser children.
Stricter population control is disastrous in the long run as then you will run into a situation like Japan, where there are no young people available to work. China will face this sometime in the future, and their economy will no longer have the advantage of a young human capital. However this population thing is a two edged sword. Pakistan also being part of the same Indian predilection towards harboring humanity has this problem of too many mouths to feed. Your growth rate is high because people are not educated and this problem is common in both our countries.
If you ask me a homogenous society is far better (but u need to be secular). Western societies are where they are because they did not have this problem like we face. Hindu growth rate or Muslim growth rate our GDP is calculated for INDIA. We need to get ahead of all this if we have to take our rightful place in this world. Numero Uno!

I would urge you to please consider this one of the several reports coming out of India on Dalits and the continued discrimination faced by the scheduled castes in India ..

http://idsn.org/fileadmin/user_folder/pdf/New_files/UN/UPR/UPR_India_2012_Recommendations.pdf



Yeah but the real question is why are the downtrodden down there in the first place ??..So you mean to say that if those people are not fit academically then they deserve to be miserable all their lives ??

Also, highschool drop outs in the united states have a lot of options and DONT go around producing reports and social media websites highlighting their plight and discrimination from time eternity. GED high school diplomas and adult education are some of the options together with equitable labor laws. Also getting one with life WITHOUT facing discrimination and getting killed anytime a shadow of theirs falls on a person of a higher caste is another BIG FACTOR.



Funny how you mention Indian democracy to highlight a secular mindset but YOUR comments go diametrically opposite and actually inline with Indian thinking. Indian Muslims are part and parcel of India. Their family size and birth rate is not much different than the dallit birth rate, but i guess since you see these two groups as partially different from mainstream "castes", you have seperated these groups as if they live on some other planet and propogate like rabbits and hence this needs to be curtailed. Does you democracy not afford a 13 % minority the right to propogate at will ?? ...Or is their a danger of this minority growing into a sizeable minority to the 25 - 30% range and causing another communal issue ?? (bigsmile)



Stricter population measures have not worked that well in China where it has now caused a demographic imbalance. In India where their is already a dire demographic imbalance in terms of female to male ratios, in some regions "polyandry" or "wife-sharing" is widely practiced apart from other forms of female abuse. On top of this if a poverty curtailment policy is adopted would only add to more chaos and misery and not in any kind of poverty reduction initiative.

China was able to implement this policy since it had built up a good manufacturing industrial base for its billion plus population which when looking at India is still a very long ways to go, if they ever get there looking at the current rate now moving close to the traditional "Hindu Growth Rate". At this growth rate people have usually suffered and the country is in no way moving towards industrialization. In such circumstances where welfare is drying up, jobs are vanishing on top of that if the people wont have a support system in CHILDREN then this will be a recipe for sure-shot disaster.

The future maybe whatever it holds, but some critical thinking is required before any policy can be put in place.

 

[Just_one]

India progress is fake because they have no originality. They educate their children in an alien language and they want to become good remakes of Goras. Bollywood is a representation of Indian mental slavery.

Their democracy is also not basic as they do not have intra-party elections within many parties.

But we have more fundamental problems at this moment, so there is no point in gloating over India's problem.

 

[Just_one]

Reservation is a very small step to undo centuries of discrimination.

Yes ultimately the people have to make it themselves, but only if the society reforms and repays fully its injustices at least in spirit.

and

They are given reservations to uplift themselves, Even muslims want to be classified as dalits, although Islam has no caste system on the face of it. Nobody deserves to be miserable but i can tell you this, that those who want to climb out of the well will do it at any cost. Then there are those who keep blaming others for their miseries, never analyzing why they never made the grade. This is not to say that people have not taken advantage of this reservation system. Many have and many do. However no matter how many reservations you get, ultimately making it in life depends on a person's capability, and dedication. It hurts a person who does not get admission in spite of securing 95% marks, while someone who has a reservation walks away with a medical seat at 45%. So what kind of system are we promoting here? One based on mediocrity or one based on calibre? But we have to bear the burden of the past, so for now this will stay in India.
School drop outs in the US cannot even write in English. Watch one bpo video made on india, where they are taught that you must treat the customer from the US as one who has the IQ of a Child. If India had a population of 330 million India would be the No 1 country of this world, not after 25 years or 50 years, but right away. But that is Utopia, and we can't ever be there unless India and Pakistan nuke each other. LOL. So if you guys wanna do it go ahead. You will be doing us a favour.

This shadow business doesn't exist anymore. Nobody gets killed because of their caste. Exceptions do exist of course, especially in north india, where honor killing is still prevalent. Other than that all your notions about sati, untouchability, widow re-marriage etc. are very old w.r.t modern day India. I am still not denying it may be existing in some small village somewhere. I am city born and bred, and from a very progressive background, so possibly i don't even come across this thing. But by and large we do not have any caste based discrimination in our society anymore.

Because of the Muslim population growth rate our latest census figures are delayed. The muslim population is not declining at the rate at which India's population is. Since they are supposed to be part and parcel of our population, they also have to do their bit in controlling the rampant population explosion. This is very education plays an important role. If you observe, educated people have just one or two kids while the lesser educated can have as many as 5-6-7 sometimes more than that like Laloo prasad. But laloo prasad is a M.A . LOL. I guess this theory got busted with him. Anyway in general educated people have lesser children.
Stricter population control is disastrous in the long run as then you will run into a situation like Japan, where there are no young people available to work. China will face this sometime in the future, and their economy will no longer have the advantage of a young human capital. However this population thing is a two edged sword. Pakistan also being part of the same Indian predilection towards harboring humanity has this problem of too many mouths to feed. Your growth rate is high because people are not educated and this problem is common in both our countries.
If you ask me a homogenous society is far better (but u need to be secular). Western societies are where they are because they did not have this problem like we face. Hindu growth rate or Muslim growth rate our GDP is calculated for INDIA. We need to get ahead of all this if we have to take our rightful place in this world. Numero Uno!

 

[Dhiraj Kumar]

Democracy is big failure in India!
No religion, No regional, No ethnicity should involved in National policy. The only way forward for well being is to replicate chinese model!

Incentive should be tied to every MNC in form of tax breaks, and other benefits if they invest in India.
The only solution to problems in India is Rapid Industrialization. Any growth less than 7% hurts poor hence only CEO should be hired to run the nation!

The only good news in India is last decade was decent improvement in Infrastructure (road) and railway! But Power sector reforms must be pushed faster !!

 

[gazoomartian]

Is chandbibi a male or a female?

Also, I think (s)he used to come here before

 

[modern.fakir]

The reservations you mention are given only to a "token subset" of the muslims and other minorities...As it is the share of minority involvement is pretty dismal in India as per the observations of the sachar report, this tokenism mindset further restricts help from even getting to any minorities and is therefore one of the main reasons for the retarded state of minorities in India.

Muslims or any group within a country would never want to associate, or even put itself in the shoes of the most persecuted minority. If that was the case then Quaid-e-Azam would never have opted for a Muslim homeland as he probably saw the writing on the wall with a few years of congress rule, with what the muslims ofindia are going through now, specially how the muslims started getting treated by their countrymen back then, suppressing muslim rights, ban on slaughtering of animals, shuddi initiatives..etc. This goes above and on top of the Muslim psyche which doesnt accept perpetual slavery for too long, which is again a gift of our Islamic Ideology.

Caste system doesnt exist in ANY Islamic country of the world and is only a BRAINCHILD of the Brahman rule in INdia in order to suppress true freedom of humanity.(bigsmile)

As for your example of the 45 % admission criteria then the reduction in admission criteria is clearly to accomodate the effects of social deprivation, inferior educational opportunities in minority enclaves, and the lack of alternative opportunities that the minority child faces as opposed to the majority child which may be sitting at the 95th percentile. Your government obviously recognises this disparity BUT the average typical Indian mindset is as you stated, one that looks at the slightest opportunity granted to a minority with envy - like a rich kid that wants to deny a poor destitute child even the smallest of candies which he may have earned after a hard days work. See this is exactly the mindset that needs to change.

I can understand that you being a city girl obviously are unfamiliar with the realities of 70 % of the INdians that live in the indian countryside in 550 000 villages, where each and every one of them defecates out in the open, cannot get a job at a modern multinational and their is a lack of even the most basic opportunity for them to uplift themselves from the kind of misery they are in.

http://www.indianchild.com/population_of_india.htm

A homogenous society is good where culture is promoted but the BASIC ideology of life remains ONE. Secularism as much as you thump it has not worked for India. Communal riots have propped up from time to time, christian churches have been burned down and christians together with dalits, shudrs, harijans and the other schedule castes are routinely persecuted.. Orissa incident is one classic example. Not to mention the state sanctioned religious massacre with the desecration of the Golden Temple and Nagaland and the seven sister states together with the MAOISTs that lead an insurgency in 42 districts of India known as the red corridor and about which President Manmohan singh is on record to have stated that "This insurgency is the greatest threat to the union of india. Kashmir and other muslim movements need not be mentioned...

So to face you may claim India is secular BUT actually it is a HINDU country and it very rightly behaves in that manner as well...Here check this article :

India's Dalits still fighting untouchability

Dalits in India still do the most menial jobs
Continue reading the main story


Dalits are at the bottom of the Hindu caste system and despite laws to protect them, they still face widespread discrimination in India, writes Natalia Antelava.


Having said this, India has a long way to go before India can improve the conditions of Dalits, Shudrs, Harijans, satee victims, Muslims, Khalistani Sikhs and other minorities such as christians, zororastrians and so forth... Industrialization level required to sustain a healthy level of growth is non-existant in most cases and this will be a big challenge as we look at a dismal rate of growth for the coming few years....

They are given reservations to uplift themselves, Even muslims want to be classified as dalits, although Islam has no caste system on the face of it. Nobody deserves to be miserable but i can tell you this, that those who want to climb out of the well will do it at any cost. Then there are those who keep blaming others for their miseries, never analyzing why they never made the grade. This is not to say that people have not taken advantage of this reservation system. Many have and many do. However no matter how many reservations you get, ultimately making it in life depends on a person's capability, and dedication. It hurts a person who does not get admission in spite of securing 95% marks, while someone who has a reservation walks away with a medical seat at 45%. So what kind of system are we promoting here? One based on mediocrity or one based on calibre? But we have to bear the burden of the past, so for now this will stay in India.
School drop outs in the US cannot even write in English. Watch one bpo video made on india, where they are taught that you must treat the customer from the US as one who has the IQ of a Child. If India had a population of 330 million India would be the No 1 country of this world, not after 25 years or 50 years, but right away. But that is Utopia, and we can't ever be there unless India and Pakistan nuke each other. LOL. So if you guys wanna do it go ahead. You will be doing us a favour.

This shadow business doesn't exist anymore. Nobody gets killed because of their caste. Exceptions do exist of course, especially in north india, where honor killing is still prevalent. Other than that all your notions about sati, untouchability, widow re-marriage etc. are very old w.r.t modern day India. I am still not denying it may be existing in some small village somewhere. I am city born and bred, and from a very progressive background, so possibly i don't even come across this thing. But by and large we do not have any caste based discrimination in our society anymore.

Because of the Muslim population growth rate our latest census figures are delayed. The muslim population is not declining at the rate at which India's population is. Since they are supposed to be part and parcel of our population, they also have to do their bit in controlling the rampant population explosion. This is very education plays an important role. If you observe, educated people have just one or two kids while the lesser educated can have as many as 5-6-7 sometimes more than that like Laloo prasad. But laloo prasad is a M.A . LOL. I guess this theory got busted with him. Anyway in general educated people have lesser children.
Stricter population control is disastrous in the long run as then you will run into a situation like Japan, where there are no young people available to work. China will face this sometime in the future, and their economy will no longer have the advantage of a young human capital. However this population thing is a two edged sword. Pakistan also being part of the same Indian predilection towards harboring humanity has this problem of too many mouths to feed. Your growth rate is high because people are not educated and this problem is common in both our countries.
If you ask me a homogenous society is far better (but u need to be secular). Western societies are where they are because they did not have this problem like we face. Hindu growth rate or Muslim growth rate our GDP is calculated for INDIA. We need to get ahead of all this if we have to take our rightful place in this world. Numero Uno!

 

[Mehrushka]

Hum log apni ghaltion se nahin seekh sakhe kuch...india ki ghaltion se khaak seekhein gein.

 

[Mehrushka]

Is chandbibi a male or a female?

Also, I think (s)he used to come here before

that was a completely offtopic post..:biggthumpup::P

 

[gazoomartian]

that was a completely offtopic post..:biggthumpup::P

actually there was a very good reason for it

 

[gazoomartian]

that was a completely offtopic post..:biggthumpup::P

time to head to bed.

Need to wake up at 5. Salam

If UKPakistan comes, please tell him gazoo was looking for him, jazakAllah

 

[chandbibi]

Haha. Gazoomartian your memory is rather weak. No wonder they call you chacha on this forum. But i am an old member of siasat.pk and you had welcomed me on this forum rather graciously. But now you are confused about me being a he/she. Your knowledge about females seems very limited if you can't spot a female when you see one.

Is chandbibi a male or a female?

Also, I think (s)he used to come here before