Kargil adventure was four-man show: Lt Gen Shahid Aziz
- Thread starter zhohaq
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Unicorn
Banned
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz
You are correct. Both parties agreed to a binding resolution. Under its terms Pakistan was to withdraw its troops as a precondition to an agreed plebiscite. If you like I can post the Binding resolution. Pakistan did not full fill its agreement. There were several NON-BINDING resolutions subsequently and India rejected them.
You are correct. Both parties agreed to a binding resolution. Under its terms Pakistan was to withdraw its troops as a precondition to an agreed plebiscite. If you like I can post the Binding resolution. Pakistan did not full fill its agreement. There were several NON-BINDING resolutions subsequently and India rejected them.
Unicorn
Banned
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz
Madam, your word is a command it shall be done sometime today. I had posted it for Sadia Gul:lol: a while back.
Madam, your word is a command it shall be done sometime today. I had posted it for Sadia Gul:lol: a while back.
Mehrushka
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz
dont bother...was just kidding...(bigsmile) i hope when u posted it for her...at the same time u didnt complain to mods abt her for me...cozz poooof she gone (bigsmile)
dont bother...was just kidding...(bigsmile) i hope when u posted it for her...at the same time u didnt complain to mods abt her for me...cozz poooof she gone (bigsmile)
Unicorn
Banned
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz
I had a war with her about the same issue.(bigsmile)(bigsmile) That was before you joined.
I had a war with her about the same issue.(bigsmile)(bigsmile) That was before you joined.
sajoo
MPA (400+ posts)
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz
Now stick to this topic.
1. I quote from Mr Sayyid Mīr Qasim's book My Life and Times, Allied Publishers 1992, 1st Ed.
"On December 31, 1947, India filed a complaint with the United Nations against the Pakistani aggression and its help to the invading tribesmen. Sheikh Abdullah was not in favor of India seeking the UN intervention because he was sure the Indian army could free the entire State of the invaders." (pp 42)
Please note that the author was a leader of National Conference, and his whole account on Kashmir is pro-India.
2. I again quote from the book of Rahul Roy-Chaudhury The United Nations Security Council and War:The Evolution of Thought and Practice since 1945, edited by Vaughan Lowe, Adam Roberts, Jennifer Welsh, Dominik Zau
"India Seeks UN intervention
In the fighting that ensued in J&K between Indian troops and armed pro-Pakistan tribesmen and Pakistani nationals, Nehru was initially reluctant to seek UN role as he was confident that Indian troops would expel the raiders from J&K. But after eight weeks of fighting, he realized this would not take place without an Indian counteroffensive into Pakistan. [HI]At the end of December 1947, he finally accepted the advice of Lord Mountbatten and decided to complain to the UN over Pakistan's aggression against what had become Indian territory[/HI]. On 1 January 1948, India formally referred the fighting in J&K to the Security Council under Article 35 of the UN Charter..." (pp. 328)
Come with your proofs.
Now stick to this topic.
1. I quote from Mr Sayyid Mīr Qasim's book My Life and Times, Allied Publishers 1992, 1st Ed.
"On December 31, 1947, India filed a complaint with the United Nations against the Pakistani aggression and its help to the invading tribesmen. Sheikh Abdullah was not in favor of India seeking the UN intervention because he was sure the Indian army could free the entire State of the invaders." (pp 42)
Please note that the author was a leader of National Conference, and his whole account on Kashmir is pro-India.
2. I again quote from the book of Rahul Roy-Chaudhury The United Nations Security Council and War:The Evolution of Thought and Practice since 1945, edited by Vaughan Lowe, Adam Roberts, Jennifer Welsh, Dominik Zau
"India Seeks UN intervention
In the fighting that ensued in J&K between Indian troops and armed pro-Pakistan tribesmen and Pakistani nationals, Nehru was initially reluctant to seek UN role as he was confident that Indian troops would expel the raiders from J&K. But after eight weeks of fighting, he realized this would not take place without an Indian counteroffensive into Pakistan. [HI]At the end of December 1947, he finally accepted the advice of Lord Mountbatten and decided to complain to the UN over Pakistan's aggression against what had become Indian territory[/HI]. On 1 January 1948, India formally referred the fighting in J&K to the Security Council under Article 35 of the UN Charter..." (pp. 328)
Come with your proofs.
Mehrushka
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz
so the credit for her leaving goes to me then....yay:chilli:
so the credit for her leaving goes to me then....yay:chilli:
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz
Why should Pakistan withdraw its troops? Why isn't India required to withdraw its troops as well? That's bad diplomacy. Not only does Pakistan have to risk an Indian take over militarily but also risk the plebiscite. Thats 2 risks. While India will have the advantage of having its troops within Kashmir right till the plebiscite.
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Unicorn
Banned
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz
Today the issue is far more complicated than it was in 1948. You can take a position that Pakistan shouldn't have agreed to the terms of resolution or a specific clause of it, but it agreed and India accepted. Since both parties agreed than both should have followed it but Pakistan failed to live up to the first step therefore no further steps were undertaken. Latter Pakistan recommended that it should be allowed to keep up to 3000 troops but India did not agree.
Today the issue is far more complicated than it was in 1948. You can take a position that Pakistan shouldn't have agreed to the terms of resolution or a specific clause of it, but it agreed and India accepted. Since both parties agreed than both should have followed it but Pakistan failed to live up to the first step therefore no further steps were undertaken. Latter Pakistan recommended that it should be allowed to keep up to 3000 troops but India did not agree.
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz
You can see why the distrust? First the whole Maharaja fiasco selling off the muslim state to save his own behind. And then India buying it off, taking advantage of this. Then the UN resolution which asks Pakistan to withdraw everyone while India stays. Thats 2 events that Pakistan is being dealt at a disadvantage.
Correct me if I am wrong here but this resolution was not voted upon by anybody, right? And UN resolution passed under chapter 6 is non-binding and unenforceable. Therefore if Pakistan disagreed to a specific term in the resolution, it is entitled to do so. And given the disadvantage it will put Pakistan in, if India violated a non-binding resolution - which again it is also entitled to do so - was the obvious course of action for Pakistan to take.
You can see why the distrust? First the whole Maharaja fiasco selling off the muslim state to save his own behind. And then India buying it off, taking advantage of this. Then the UN resolution which asks Pakistan to withdraw everyone while India stays. Thats 2 events that Pakistan is being dealt at a disadvantage.
Unicorn
Banned
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz
Resolution of 1948 was a binding resolution, I believe binding resolutions are under chapter 9. In this case an agreement between Pakistan and India was reached, with UN help. The agreement was presented to the security counsel who signed it and made it an official UN resolution. It is no different than if you and I have a dispute and are engaged in litigation. If we made an agreement and get the judge to sign, it becomes a court order.
Pakistan had the option of not agreeing to the terms. This would leave both countries in a state of war and UN would have passed a non binding resolution like many others on its books. And if Pakistan had enough support and a reasonable expectation that a favorable binding resolution will survive the veto in security counsel they should have pursued it.
Getting back to my original comment If Mr. Jinnah had not made this blunder we be in not in a state that we are in.
Mr. Jinnah had counted on Hugh uprising in Kashmir which did not happen one of the reasons being the undisciplined Tribals started to loot and rape.
Resolution of 1948 was a binding resolution, I believe binding resolutions are under chapter 9. In this case an agreement between Pakistan and India was reached, with UN help. The agreement was presented to the security counsel who signed it and made it an official UN resolution. It is no different than if you and I have a dispute and are engaged in litigation. If we made an agreement and get the judge to sign, it becomes a court order.
Pakistan had the option of not agreeing to the terms. This would leave both countries in a state of war and UN would have passed a non binding resolution like many others on its books. And if Pakistan had enough support and a reasonable expectation that a favorable binding resolution will survive the veto in security counsel they should have pursued it.
Getting back to my original comment If Mr. Jinnah had not made this blunder we be in not in a state that we are in.
Mr. Jinnah had counted on Hugh uprising in Kashmir which did not happen one of the reasons being the undisciplined Tribals started to loot and rape.
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz
Line of control was drawn uptill map coordinations NJ 9842 in the north,east of khaplu in skardu district. Area ahead of that was left un-demarcated and that is what india took advantage of .All the major peaks including K-2 is part of this un-demarcated area.
Unicorn
Banned
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz
You can read them directly at UN site
http://www.un.org
search the following documents
resolution 38 (1948) Jan
Res.........47..........Affirmation April
Res.........51............affirmation Jun
You can read them directly at UN site
http://www.un.org
search the following documents
resolution 38 (1948) Jan
Res.........47..........Affirmation April
Res.........51............affirmation Jun
adnan_younus
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz
Dnt try to justify wht is wrong...kashmir shud hv been implicitly with pakistan based on the population .... Or atleast independent....going with india doesnt make any damn sense...
Dnt try to justify wht is wrong...kashmir shud hv been implicitly with pakistan based on the population .... Or atleast independent....going with india doesnt make any damn sense...
Unicorn
Banned
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz
[h=2]U.N.Resolution August 13, 1948.[/h]This is the most significant resolution passed by the UN on the state of Jammu & Kashmir. It clearly states that Pakistan was to vacate its troops from the whole of the state. It also mentions, albeit indirectly, that Pakistan had consistently lied on the question of whether or not its troops were involved in the fighting in Jammu & Kashmir. Once the then Pakistani Prime Minister conceded that Pakistani troops wereindeed involved, the UN had no option but to ask for their withdrawal. That the withdrawal never took place, is another story.
[SIZE=+1]The United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan.[/SIZE]
Having given careful consideration to the points of view expressed by the representatives of India and Pakistan regarding the situation in the State of Jammu and Kashmir; and
Being of the opinion that the prompt cessation of hostilities and the correction of conditions the continuance of which is likely to endanger international peace and security are essential to implementation of its endeavors to assist the Governments of India and Pakistan in effecting a final settlement of the situation;
Resolves to submit simultaneously to the Governments of India and Pakistan the following proposal:
[h=4]PART I: CEASE-FIRE ORDER[/h]A. The Governments of India and Pakistan agree that their respective High Commands will issue separately and simultaneously a cease-fire order to apply to all forces under their control and in the State of Jammu and Kashmir as of the earliest practicable date or dates to be mutually agreed upon within four days after these proposals have been accepted by both Governments.
B.The High Commands of the Indian and Pakistani forces agree to refrain from taking any measures that might augment the military potential of the forces under their control in the State of Jammu and Kashmir. ( For the purpose of these proposals forces under their control shall be considered to include all forces, organized and unorganized, fighting or participating in hostilities on their respective sides.
C.The Commanders-in-Chief of the forces of India and Pakistan shall promptly confer regarding any necessary local changes in present dispositions which may facilitate the cease-fire.
D. In its discretion and as the Commission may find practicable, the Commission will appoint military observers who, under the authority of the Commission and with the co-operation of both Commands, will supervise the observance of the cease-fire order.
E. The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan agree to appeal to their respective peoples to assist in creating and maintaining an atmosphere favourable to the promotion of further negotiations.
[h=4]PART II: TRUCE AGREEMENT[/h]Simultaneously with the acceptance of the proposal for the immediate cessation of hostilities as outlined in Part I, both the Governments accept the following principles as a basis for the formulation of a truce agreement, the details of which shall be worked out in discussion between their representatives and the Commission.A.
1. As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State.
2. The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavour to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting.
3. Pending a final solution, the territory evacuated by the Pakistani troops will be administered by the local authorities under the surveillance of the commission.
B.
1.When the commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistani nationals referred to in Part II, A, 2, hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistani forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of its forces from that State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission.
2. Pending the acceptance of the conditions for a final settlement of the situation in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Indian Government will maintain within the lines existing at the moment of the cease-fire the minimum strength of its forces which in agreement with the commission are considered necessary to assist local authorities in the observance of law and order. The Commission will have observers stationed where it deems necessary.
3. The Government of India will undertake to ensure that the Government of the State of Jammu and Kashmir will take all measures within its powers to make it publicly known that peace, law and order will be safeguarded and that all human political rights will be granted.
4. Upon signature, the full text of the truce agreement or a communique containing the principles thereof as agreed upon between the two Governments and the Commission, will be made public.
PART III
The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan reaffirm their wish that the future status of the State of Jammu and Kashmir shall be determined in accordance with the will of the people and to that end, upon acceptance of the truce agreement, both Governments agree to enter into consultations with the Commission to determine fair and equitable conditions whereby such free expression will be assured.
Source: United Nations[SIZE=+1]Return to Index of Documents[/SIZE]
[h=2]U.N.Resolution August 13, 1948.[/h]This is the most significant resolution passed by the UN on the state of Jammu & Kashmir. It clearly states that Pakistan was to vacate its troops from the whole of the state. It also mentions, albeit indirectly, that Pakistan had consistently lied on the question of whether or not its troops were involved in the fighting in Jammu & Kashmir. Once the then Pakistani Prime Minister conceded that Pakistani troops wereindeed involved, the UN had no option but to ask for their withdrawal. That the withdrawal never took place, is another story.
[SIZE=+1]The United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan.[/SIZE]
Having given careful consideration to the points of view expressed by the representatives of India and Pakistan regarding the situation in the State of Jammu and Kashmir; and
Being of the opinion that the prompt cessation of hostilities and the correction of conditions the continuance of which is likely to endanger international peace and security are essential to implementation of its endeavors to assist the Governments of India and Pakistan in effecting a final settlement of the situation;
Resolves to submit simultaneously to the Governments of India and Pakistan the following proposal:
[h=4]PART I: CEASE-FIRE ORDER[/h]A. The Governments of India and Pakistan agree that their respective High Commands will issue separately and simultaneously a cease-fire order to apply to all forces under their control and in the State of Jammu and Kashmir as of the earliest practicable date or dates to be mutually agreed upon within four days after these proposals have been accepted by both Governments.
B.The High Commands of the Indian and Pakistani forces agree to refrain from taking any measures that might augment the military potential of the forces under their control in the State of Jammu and Kashmir. ( For the purpose of these proposals forces under their control shall be considered to include all forces, organized and unorganized, fighting or participating in hostilities on their respective sides.
C.The Commanders-in-Chief of the forces of India and Pakistan shall promptly confer regarding any necessary local changes in present dispositions which may facilitate the cease-fire.
D. In its discretion and as the Commission may find practicable, the Commission will appoint military observers who, under the authority of the Commission and with the co-operation of both Commands, will supervise the observance of the cease-fire order.
E. The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan agree to appeal to their respective peoples to assist in creating and maintaining an atmosphere favourable to the promotion of further negotiations.
[h=4]PART II: TRUCE AGREEMENT[/h]Simultaneously with the acceptance of the proposal for the immediate cessation of hostilities as outlined in Part I, both the Governments accept the following principles as a basis for the formulation of a truce agreement, the details of which shall be worked out in discussion between their representatives and the Commission.A.
1. As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State.
2. The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavour to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting.
3. Pending a final solution, the territory evacuated by the Pakistani troops will be administered by the local authorities under the surveillance of the commission.
B.
1.When the commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistani nationals referred to in Part II, A, 2, hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistani forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of its forces from that State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission.
2. Pending the acceptance of the conditions for a final settlement of the situation in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Indian Government will maintain within the lines existing at the moment of the cease-fire the minimum strength of its forces which in agreement with the commission are considered necessary to assist local authorities in the observance of law and order. The Commission will have observers stationed where it deems necessary.
3. The Government of India will undertake to ensure that the Government of the State of Jammu and Kashmir will take all measures within its powers to make it publicly known that peace, law and order will be safeguarded and that all human political rights will be granted.
4. Upon signature, the full text of the truce agreement or a communique containing the principles thereof as agreed upon between the two Governments and the Commission, will be made public.
PART III
The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan reaffirm their wish that the future status of the State of Jammu and Kashmir shall be determined in accordance with the will of the people and to that end, upon acceptance of the truce agreement, both Governments agree to enter into consultations with the Commission to determine fair and equitable conditions whereby such free expression will be assured.
Source: United Nations[SIZE=+1]Return to Index of Documents[/SIZE]
Unicorn
Banned
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz
Right now we are discussing shoulds and coulds. We are considering blunders the first blunder was commuted by Mr. Jihhah since then its been a saga of blunders until Kargil.
Right now we are discussing shoulds and coulds. We are considering blunders the first blunder was commuted by Mr. Jihhah since then its been a saga of blunders until Kargil.
adnan_younus
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz
a blunder in hind sight which followed selfishness and injustice by india.... had they made kashmir parrt of pakistan or let their ppl decide .. things wud hv been different... standing today yes we shud hv forgotten kashmir .. but in 1947... it was indias mistake...
a blunder in hind sight which followed selfishness and injustice by india.... had they made kashmir parrt of pakistan or let their ppl decide .. things wud hv been different... standing today yes we shud hv forgotten kashmir .. but in 1947... it was indias mistake...
Unicorn
Banned
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz
I am not saying that you should have forgotten Kashmir all I am saying is that you (Jinnah) should have left Kashmir and the King alone or should have tried with diplomatic or finical means instead of the path Mr. Jinnah chose.
I am glad at least you are willing to acknowledge this as a blunder unlike the rest of the members. Acknowledging blunders can be helpful in establishing peace process.
I am not saying that you should have forgotten Kashmir all I am saying is that you (Jinnah) should have left Kashmir and the King alone or should have tried with diplomatic or finical means instead of the path Mr. Jinnah chose.
I am glad at least you are willing to acknowledge this as a blunder unlike the rest of the members. Acknowledging blunders can be helpful in establishing peace process.
adnan_younus
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz
i said a blunder in HINDSIGHT.... at tat time it was force against injustice...
i said a blunder in HINDSIGHT.... at tat time it was force against injustice...
Unicorn
Banned
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz
You can't call it force against injustice than call it a blunder. Mr. Jinnah was at the negotiating table and he should have refused to accept the Kashmir proposal if he saw it as injustice. If it was force against injustice than he should have waited until he had enough force to overcome what he saw as injustice.
You can't call it force against injustice than call it a blunder. Mr. Jinnah was at the negotiating table and he should have refused to accept the Kashmir proposal if he saw it as injustice. If it was force against injustice than he should have waited until he had enough force to overcome what he saw as injustice.
