"Islamic Banking" is DOUBLE Haraam - Sheikh Umer Vadillo

[imran1976]

Like I said, you will lament over this fact all your life; what doesn't change is that it is HALAL and the 'ulama have stated it as such. Ab ya toh main 'ulama key baat sun loon ya aapki.

You are grossly misrepresenting the words of Imam Sarkhashi. I am going to check with some 'ulama on this before I get back to you. deen mazaaq nahin hai kay half-baked knowledge par aik opinion qaim kar lain aur online forums par phir shuru hojayain.

I already mentioned that you would read my words and scream foul and "HARAM...RIBA...".

yes why not do check it out with the Scholars, don't forget to contact Mufti Zarwali & Mufti Habibullah who are also deobandis like Muft Taqi Usmani and ask them why they issued fatwa against Islamic banking and attacked Mufti Taqi Usmani back in 2008.

The Hadiths which i have posted is taken from Imran Ahsan Khan Nyazee's book who happens to be Professor in the faculti Islamic finance & law in International Islamic University, Islamabad.

If the things i am posting aren't according to your liking than this doesn't mean they don't exist.

Coming back to the contract-- by separately mentioning markup in the contract, the bank is charging for the delay and this is clearly Riba.

 

[AsifAmeer]

social.. social..

Economics Is A Science.. -_- Mind Boggling :D

 

[AsifAmeer]

Markup rolled into the price is worse than simple interest loan because there's a prepayment panelty, since if have already paid for the total cost of the term of the loan.

yes why not do check it out with the Scholars, don't forget to contact Mufti Zarwali & Mufti Habibullah who are also deobandis like Muft Taqi Usmani and ask them why they issued fatwa against Islamic banking and attacked Mufti Taqi Usmani back in 2008.

The Hadiths which i have posted is taken from Imran Ahsan Khan Nyazee's book who happens to be Professor in the faculti Islamic finance & law in International Islamic University, Islamabad.

If the things i am posting aren't according to your liking than this doesn't mean they don't exist.

Coming back to the contract-- by separately mentioning markup in the contract, the bank is charging for the delay and this is clearly Riba.

 

[Aleph]

Mufti Zarwali and Mufti Habibullah have no grounding in the fiqh of finance so good luck with holding on to their opinions over that of a specialist like Mufti Taqi Uthmani.

I can paste just as many things (even more in fact) in support of my view. But, I dont like to waste time because you come with your mind already made up. Just so that you know, the rules Jurisprudence and the orthodoxy (Ahlus sunnah wal jama'ah) is based upon IJMA. The ijma (or the scholarly consensus) is with Islamic Banking. So you can find all the tangential and peripheral opinions that you want, but I will stick to the scholarly consensus, thank you.

It's not about you pasting things that I dont like; it's about you quoting tangential opinions and presenting them as mainstream. Quite clearly you are against the mainstream and if that makes you happy then so be it. The Hadith of Rasulullah (SAW) are very clear about the matter. In any case, I will be getting back with you on the quote by Imam Sarakhsi and showing you HOW GROSSLY you have misrepresented his quote (on 2 different conditions in the contracts).

Of course, it won't change your opinion, but it will just highlight the intellectual dishonesty by Mr. Imran Ahsan Nyazee whom you religiously follow on this matter.

yes why not do check it out with the Scholars, don't forget to contact Mufti Zarwali & Mufti Habibullah who are also deobandis like Muft Taqi Usmani and ask them why they issued fatwa against Islamic banking and attacked Mufti Taqi Usmani back in 2008.

The Hadiths which i have posted is taken from Imran Ahsan Khan Nyazee's book who happens to be Professor in the faculti Islamic finance & law in International Islamic University, Islamabad.

If the things i am posting aren't according to your liking than this doesn't mean they don't exist.

Coming back to the contract-- by separately mentioning markup in the contract, the bank is charging for the delay and this is clearly Riba.

 

[imran1976]

Markup rolled into the price is worse than simple interest loan because there's a prepayment panelty, since if have already paid for the total cost of the term of the loan.

This excess is justified under Islamic laws as the seller will be at loss caused due to time delay or this is justified because the seller is passing on the value to the buyer -- If the seller doesn't charge excess for delay out of free will than he is passing on the right as a way of gift.

and the basis is:

"Allah has allowed the sale and has prohibited interest." [Al-Baqarah 2:275]

 

[Aleph]

@imran1976:

I am composing a response to your post #29 and the verse that you have mentioned is part of what I will cover in my full response on post 29. The verse you have pasted is actually what support PROFIT MARGIN/MARK UP/EXCESS (Al-Bai'). Note: Selling is done on profit/mark up/excess basis! So you are actually supporting my point! You will understand this point of mine when I tell you in detail of the different types of Bai': al `inah (sale and buy-back); bith-thaman ajil (sale in deferred payments); muajjal (sale in credit). Your confusion is in the last 2 types, which I will clarify soon, in sha Allah.

Also, I noted some very serious mistakes you made in the interpretation of Imam Sarakhsi's quote from Al-Mabsut. The 2 invalid conditions mentioned have been taken completely out of context. I am only checking up some sources to confirm this and I will get back to you as soon as I get the matter clarified.

This excess is justified under Islamic laws as the seller will be at loss caused due to time delay or this is justified because the seller is passing on the value to the buyer -- If the seller doesn't charge excess for delay out of free will than he is passing on the right as a way of gift.

and the basis is:

"Allah has allowed the sale and has prohibited interest." [Al-Baqarah 2:275]

 

[imran1976]

Mufti Zarwali and Mufti Habibullah have no grounding in the fiqh of finance so good luck with holding on to their opinions over that of a specialist like Mufti Taqi Uthmani.

I can paste just as many things (even more in fact) in support of my view. But, I dont like to waste time because you come with your mind already made up. Just so that you know, the rules Jurisprudence and the orthodoxy (Ahlus sunnah wal jama'ah) is based upon IJMA. The ijma (or the scholarly consensus) is with Islamic Banking. So you can find all the tangential and peripheral opinions that you want, but I will stick to the scholarly consensus, thank you.

It's not about you pasting things that I dont like; it's about you quoting tangential opinions and presenting them as mainstream. Quite clearly you are against the mainstream and if that makes you happy then so be it. The Hadith of Rasulullah (SAW) are very clear about the matter. In any case, I will be getting back with you on the quote by Imam Sarkhashi and showing you HOW GROSSLY you have misrepresented his quote (on 2 different conditions in the contracts).

Of course, it won't change your opinion, but it will just highlight the intellectual dishonesty by Mr. Imran Ahsan Nyazee whom you religiously follow on this matter.

It would have been better had you brought up copy/paste material, would have been far better than what you have been posting.

I will follow anyone who doesn't legitimize or do cosmetic surgery to the rotten capitalistic system (banking being it's one component) and present it to us by Islamic tags.

Sure do get back at me, i await ; we have just discussed one component of Islamic banking i.e Murabahah , there are many other -- Do take this HAdith also to the Scholar you follow:

“Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that a man said to another, ‘Buy this camel for me immediately so that I can buy him from you on credit.’ ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Umar was asked about that and he disapproved of it and forbade it.”

 

[imran1976]

@imran1976:

I am composing a response to your post #29 and the verse that you have mentioned is part of what I will cover in my full response on post 29. The verse you have pasted is actually what support PROFIT MARGIN/MARK UP/EXCESS (Al-Bai'). Note: Selling is done on profit/mark up/excess basis! So you are actually supporting my point!

Also, I noted some very serious mistakes you made in the interpretation of Imam Sarakhsi's quote from Al-Mabsut. The 2 invalid conditions mentioned have been taken completely out of context. I am only checking up some sources to confirm this and I will get back to you as soon as I get the matter clarified.

it seems you aren't reading my posts carefully --- Where i said that excess is not allowed in a credit sale? All i said is that the contract should not separately mention markup ; remember the thin line.

 

[Aleph]

wait for the response to come and you will note how your contestation that "contract should not separately mention markup" is a complete misrepresentation of what Imam Sarakhsi says in Al-Mabsut. If you understand Arabic and read the whole chapter on this matter this will become CLEAR as daylight to you.

Just to give you a teaser, Imam Sarakhsi is actually talking about UNJUSTIFIED delay in payment and not delay in payment in itself. Actually, he states the OPPOSITE of what you are saying and makes it very categorically known that the contract should clearly state: (a) base price of the commodity; (b) the profit margin has to be "mutually agreed by both parties"!!

The evidences will come soon in sha Allah. I have to go through some books...

it seems you aren't reading my posts carefully --- Where i said that excess is not allowed in a credit sale? All i said is that the contract should not separately mention markup ; remember the thin line.

 

[imran1976]

Mufti Zarwali and Mufti Habibullah have no grounding in the fiqh of finance so good luck with holding on to their opinions over that of a specialist like Mufti Taqi Uthmani.

I can paste just as many things (even more in fact) in support of my view. But, I dont like to waste time because you come with your mind already made up. Just so that you know, the rules Jurisprudence and the orthodoxy (Ahlus sunnah wal jama'ah) is based upon IJMA. The ijma (or the scholarly consensus) is with Islamic Banking. So you can find all the tangential and peripheral opinions that you want, but I will stick to the scholarly consensus, thank you.

It's not about you pasting things that I dont like; it's about you quoting tangential opinions and presenting them as mainstream. Quite clearly you are against the mainstream and if that makes you happy then so be it. The Hadith of Rasulullah (SAW) are very clear about the matter. In any case, I will be getting back with you on the quote by Imam Sarakhsi and showing you HOW GROSSLY you have misrepresented his quote (on 2 different conditions in the contracts).

Of course, it won't change your opinion, but it will just highlight the intellectual dishonesty by Mr. Imran Ahsan Nyazee whom you religiously follow on this matter.

Discussions should remain discussions and not turn into ego -- i don't know why you see every one against islamic banking as dishonest/incompetent and your claim of Ijma is immature, i mean there's not a consensus (Ijma) even within the deobandis; how can you make such big claim?

 

[imran1976]

Just to give you a teaser, Imam Sarakhsi is actually talking about UNJUSTIFIED delay in payment and not delay in payment in itself. Actually, he states the OPPOSITE of what you are saying and makes it very categorically known that the contract should clearly state: (a) base price of the commodity; (b) the profit margin has to be "mutually agreed by both parties"!!..

i think you are having problems in understanding what is meant by not including in the contract separately otherwise i do not have any problems with base price/profit margin- I am just saying that the contract must mention one single price, is this difficult to understand?

 

[Aleph]

You are being impatient; why can't you just wait? You will see the dishonesty when you read the actual words of Imam Sarakhsi in sha Allah. Also, ijma' is not based on whims. So it doesn't matter what deobandis or barelwis say independently within their own circles. Ijma' is based on a larger principle of the entire community of scholars. And not just any scholars, but those who are authorities in a matter. For example, Imam Nawawi and Ibn Hajr Al-Asqalani are the authorities in the Shafi'i fiqh and their opinions gets tarjih over all other opinions. This is simply because of their higher standing in terms of their scholarly levels.

Like I have said, the misrepresentation you make of Imam Sarakhsi will be made very apparent to you. Once you read it then if you are honest to yourself (forget about everyone else over here) you will admit that whoever showed you that (mis)quote has only misled you. By the way, I also couldn't help notice how you are defending Bay' over here yet you are thrashing banks for following Murabahah. Are you not aware that Bay' al-mu'ajjal (Sale by credit or differed payments) is also referred to as murabahah mu'ajjal?

Discussions should remain discussions and not turn into ego -- i don't know why you see every one against islamic banking as dishonest/incompetent and your claim of Ijma is immature, i mean there's not a consensus (Ijma) even within the deobandis; how can you make such big claim?

 

[imran1976]

Like I have said, the misrepresentation you make of Imam Sarakhsi will be made very apparent to you. Once you read it then if you are honest to yourself (forget about everyone else over here) you will admit that whoever showed you that (mis)quote has only misled you. By the way, I also couldn't help notice how you are defending Bay' over here yet you are thrashing banks for following Murabahah. Are you not aware that Bay' al-mu'ajjal (Sale by credit or differed payments) is also referred to as murabahah mu'ajjal?

what a point raised (clap),

plz read the chapter of Murabahah of Mufti Taqi Usmani, didn't he said that Murabahah is a type of sale and not a mode of financing; i hope now you feel the difference and undersatnd why i am thrashing banks with Islamic labels.

 

[imran1976]

Are you not aware that Bay' al-mu'ajjal (Sale by credit or differed payments) is also referred to as murabahah mu'ajjal?

Who says that both are same?

Bai Muajjal is a credit sale, i sell you car for pkr100,000 to be paid after 3 months.
Murabaha Muajjal is also a credit sale but i disclose my cost + profit, Pkr90,000(cost)+Pkr10,000(profit)

 

[Aleph]

The longer this discussion is going, [MENTION=22694]imran1976[/MENTION], the more it is becoming apparent that you lack a basic level of comprehension in reading. I am partly to blame because I was taking you seriously until the Imam Sarakhsi quotation. Had I dissected your opinions in depth I would have commented on your irregularities much before and avoided the ensuing confusion.

Please note that you are making NO SENSE when you are trying to argue that "Murabahah is a type of sale and not a mode of financing". Do you even read what you write?? Murabahah is the mechanism of providing financing by using the concept of permissible trade/selling. So, basically:

1- You want to buy a car worth Rs 23 lacs and don't have that kind of money in upfront cash.
2- The bank buys it for 23 lacs from the dealer.
3- It then sells the car to you for 26 lacs over a period of 48 months.

The above process is what is known as MURABAHAH - a mechanism of financing devised on the shar'i ijazah of trading/selling. As you quoted Surah Baqarah, Ayah 275: Wahlul Allah Al-Bay' wa harrama ar-Riba. So you can either use Riba as a mechanism of financing (which is unlawful) or Selling as a mechanism of financing (which is halal).

Hopefully, this much is now crystal clear! If you are CLEAR on this much then we can go on to the next part which is putting the words of Imam Sarakhsi in its proper context.

Waiting for your response on this.

 

[Aleph]

Credit sale comes with a PROFIT MARGIN (what you call EXCESS). Why are you arguing something that is already established by yourself to @AsifAmeer??

ALL SELLING IS DONE ON THE BASIS OF A PROFIT/EXCESS!! There is nothing haram/riba about selling with a profit! Moreover, read ANY book on the nomenclature of Islamic Banking and you will find that MURABAHAH MU'AJJAL = BAY' Al-MU'AJJAL.

You are just arguing for nothing now :P

Who says that both are same?

Bai Muajjal is a credit sale, i sell you car for pkr100,000 to be paid after 3 months.
Murabaha Muajjal is also a credit sale but i disclose my cost + profit, Pkr90,000(cost)+Pkr10,000(profit)

 

[ramses2x1]

and whats the point .. absolutely rubbish what u just said , did u forget to take ur medication again ??

if u don't have anything nice to say , better keep the mouth shut :)

 

[ramses2x1]

I agree with him 100 percent including when he says that it is not the solution of all the problems and I see major problems. I think some one in Pakistan should start minting Dinars and Durhams privately just like in Malaysia and see where it goes. It would make the government and the banks irrelevant for the most part if people start to buy and trade with it. Let people deal with money transfers privately.

and whats the point .. absolutely rubbish what u just said , did u forget to take ur medication again ??

if u don't have anything nice to say , better keep the mouth shut :)

 

[Unicorn]

and whats the point .. absolutely rubbish what u just said , did u forget to take ur medication again ??

if u don't have anything nice to say , better keep the mouth shut :)

You must be out of your mind(yapping)(yapping)

 

[atensari]

I don't know why has it even being discussed in such a detail. I mean the possibility of Islamic Banking being halaal. Banking can't ever be halaal but as pork can be eaten when life is endangered and the person intends no sin or to treat his taste buds.

For Taqi Usmani heading shariat boards of banks, money makes the mare go mates, money makes the mare go. What can you expect from people who supported CIA-designed afghan jihad and proved that it was a war of Islam and of Pakistan.

CIA plunged in Afghan WAR 2-3 years later, when it realized that Russia can be defeated (so as America). Real CIA planning started after Afghan WAR and specially after Taliban Govt. Those who were once cheering Russia now cheering America.