Is wearing a tie in Islam Haram?

[abduttawwab]

@babadeena

a) The word "Hadith" has been used in Quran in many places, where it is written that
you have to follow "Hadith". Now please do not take the cover of words "Ateeho".[/quote
So what's your understanding of '??????????? ??????? ??????????? ?????????? '?

b) No one deny that "institution of Hadith" is disputed and carries a question mark? so it is important to screen all Hadiths through Quran.

No, there is no question mark at all.
Muhadeseen (Experts of Hadeeth and Ilmur-Rijaal) has already done the classification of ahadeeth. And Mujtahedeen and Fuqhah (Experts of Fiqh) know very well hadeeth of which Class can be used to where. There is no confusion, so common ppl dont need to take any tension of screening, as it has already been done.

c) All differences in Islamic Ummah are due to "Hadiths", you accept it or not but it is the biggest reality.

Subhan`Allah - do you know what are you saying???
And in your eyes, only solution of removing the differences is to leave the ahadeeth. (naozobillah)

d) One Hadiths, Believers had/have not united it is the only "Quran" which can unite whole of Islamic Ummah.

From the same Quran, need and importance of Sunnah and Ijmaa' are proved.

e) Show me a Hadith, in which the present day Salaat--- starting from the words "Subhanakalahuma till the last word which we recite--- is there. It is has to only one Hadith and "agreed upon all".

Why is it necessary that 'It has to only one Hadith' ?

Brother abduttawwab, i know the group of babadeena and patriot, they are follower of Ghulam Ahmed Pervaiz and he was one of the Rejectors of Hadeeth...but they have got very tricky mind...when will be stuck they would accept hadeeth to explain quran but when every they would want they will categorically deny accepting Sunnah/Hadeeth.

@babdeena... what is your stance on Hadeeth? is it neccessary to understand Quran????

bro suchbolo,
I understand that; What I want to learn is how the idiotic concept of leaving other foundations of Islam (Sunnah, Ijmaa, Qiyas) and relying only on translation of Holy Quran created.
I'll insha`Allah try to compile a separate article on these misconceptions.

 

[babadeena]

So what's your understanding of '??????????? ??????? ??????????? ?????????? '?

Obey Allah and Obey Rasool(PBUH). Definitely in my understanding these words
do not qualify to "follow Hadith". Do you believe that Allah was short of words to use in Quran or you seem to be naive that the word "Hadith" itself has been used TWENTYEIGHT TIME in Quran. The mere fact that you people take the shelter of arabic word "Ateeho" to justify the blind following of all that which had been rightly/wrongly termed as "Hadith".
The 28 verses in Quran with the "Hadith" are:
[4:42, 4:78, 4:87, 4:140, 6:68, 7:185, 12:6, 12:21, 12:101, 12:111, 18:6, 20:9, 23:44, 31:6, 33:53, 34:19, 39:23, 45:6, 51:24, 52:34, 53:59, 56:81, 66:3, 68:44, 77:50, 79:15, 85:17, 88:1]
I have given U readily available source. Now You decide what is the logic of translating the arabic word "ateeho" as "Hadith". Moreover, if "Atteho" word is Hadith as you claim then, where are the Hadith of Ulil amr (4:59) becuase here the word "ateeho" has been used for both Rasool and Ulil Amar. Where are the Hadith of Pharon because His nation made his Atteh (43:54), Where are the Hadiths of all other Prophets, who as per Quran asked their Attehat. Therefore, logically you do not have any support from these arabic words, Try something else, please.

No, there is no question mark at all.
Muhadeseen (Experts of Hadeeth and Ilmur-Rijaal) has already done the classification of ahadeeth. And Mujtahedeen and Fuqhah (Experts of Fiqh) know very well hadeeth of which Class can be used to where. There is no confusion, so common ppl dont need to take any tension of screening, as it has already been done.

From whole of Book if only few things turned to be false, the whole premise falls down.
"The number of hadiths collected and attributed to the prophet Muhammed is in the hundreds of thousands, as much as 700,000. As much as 99% of all these hundreds of thousands hadiths are pure lies and fabrications and were rejected by the early Muslim scholars who thought they can figure out which hadith is authentic and which is not. Let us look at some of the famous hadiths collectors and what they collected.

(1) Malik Ibn Anas collected about 500 hadiths in his famous book, "Al-Muwattaa"

(2) Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, collected about 40,000 hadiths, in his famous "Musnad".He chose these 40,000 hadiths from among 700,000 hadiths. In other words he thought 660,000 hadith were un-proven, lies and/or fabrications and the others may be authentic. That is 94% lies and fabrications

(3) Bukhary collected about 600,000 hadiths and accepted 7275 hadiths and considered 592,725 hadiths to be un-proven hadiths,lies and/or fabrications, that is almost 99% of what he collected .

(4)Moslem collected 300,000 hadiths and only accepted 4000 of them, and refused about 296,000 . that is almost 99% of these collected hadiths .

This will give you an idea of how much corruption entered or tried to enter Islam from the back door."

Subhan`Allah - do you know what are you saying???
And in your eyes, only solution of removing the differences is to leave the ahadeeth. (naozobillah)

The whole scenario was changed after 40 years of the death of our Prophet(PBUH). That is fact and reality.

From the same Quran, need and importance of Sunnah and Ijmaa' are proved.

Sunnah were the practical practices and travelled from generations to generations. We learned Salaat how to perform it from practices of elders. "Ijmaa" is proved in Quran, please show me the verse, BTW what you mean by this word?

Why is it necessary that 'It has to only one Hadith' ?

Why it should not be! Namaaz was ordered immediately. Hence people should have been told what to read, where to start and where to end. Are you of the view that Naamaz kept on changing all the time. If Hadith teaches the Namaaz, then there must be only one Hadith containing all the Namaz which we present day recite.

Brother abduttawwab, i know the group of babadeena and patriot, they are follower of Ghulam Ahmed Pervaiz and he was one of the Rejectors of Hadeeth...but they have got very tricky mind...when will be stuck they would accept hadeeth to explain quran but when every they would want they will categorically deny accepting Sunnah/Hadeeth.

Patriot can defend himself if he so wishes. But as far as I am concerned, you have made a blatant accusation against me. I do not need your certificate of any kind, mine are mine deeds and yours are yours. I can only say, let the curse of Allah be on those who lie about others. Sunnah/Hadeeth, u seem to be struggling for the choice of words. Open your eyes the word "Hadith" has been abundantly used in Quran. Check the above part.

@babdeena... what is your stance on Hadeeth? is it neccessary to understand Quran????

Care the read the thread from the beginning, you may find my stance "Crystal n clear". Only those people trained in "rote concept" and "lacking the average intelligence" will require to read the 50 plus volumes of Hadiths just to understand only One Book called Quran wherein Allah said it is the easiest one to understand. You people even do not know how to defend the terminology of "Hadith" and are struggling for choice of words.

IN WHICH "HADITH" AFTER THIS WILL THEY THEN BELIEVE?": (Sura 7:185). "THESE ARE THE REVELATIONS OF God WHICH WE RECITE TO YOU CORRECTLY. IN WHAT OTHER "HADITH" THAN God AND HIS REVELATIONS WOULD THEY THEN BELIEVE?" (Sura 45:6).

Quran, no doubt is the catalyst for all other material to be judged. Its authority is absolute and must.

 

[patriot]

It is natural that if you do not use an object for a long time it may stop working.
The same applies to people who are accustomed to live their entire lives following formulas. How to wash, sleep, get up, urinate, walk into the bathroom, step into and out of the house, etc.
They stop thinking for themselves and analyze things and come to a reasonable conclusion because after prolonged inefficiency brain does not work anymore.
People like "such bolo" can not understand that one can understand the Quran,by reading it.
When you tell them that you only believe in those "Ahadeeth" which do not contradict the accepted principles of the Quran. Then they ask: Do you believe in hadeeth.? [wall]
It just shows you the mandset.
So it is useless to discuss the Deen with such mindset.
Good luck brother "babadeena".

PS:Allah SWT says about the Quran that had it been from other than God, you will find many contradictions in it.
There are lot of contradictions in the so-called hadeeth books,which they think is sunna [funnny]
I have read enough ahadeeth and know that a lot of them are absolutely not from God.

 

[babadeena]

Good luck brother "babadeena".

Thanks.
At least I have pointed out. Rest it is their choice to accept or reject. There is
no compulsion in Religion.
Following things also puzzle me a lot:

a) If you quote Quran, you are labelled as "Quranist" or "Pervaizi"
b) If you point out that x,y,z is against Quran and reference is also given, they
accuse as being "Hadith Rejecter". and start asking funny questions like
"do u believe in Haidth", "What U think of Hadith", "Do you think that
Quran can be understood without Hadith"

c) If they could not have any answer then they bracket you some other group. Knowledge-wise poor people do not understand that "How much authenticity to any Hadith may be given, it will never equate or supersede Quran. Quran's authority is must and absolute".
d) Hadith Exremists have no basis from Quran except that they quote the
verses "Ateeho Allah and Atteho Rasool" and forget that 28 times Hadith word has
been used in Quran, why they did not get to this word then.

The subject "Is weaqring a tie in Islam Haram" manifests their total ignorance that 1400 years ago in arabian peninsula, people used to wear Gucci type ties, i suppose?
Thanks again.

 

[such bolo]

Obey Allah and Obey Rasool(PBUH). Definitely in my understanding these words
do not qualify to "follow Hadith". Do you believe that Allah was short of words to use in Quran or you seem to be naive that the word "Hadith" itself has been used TWENTYEIGHT TIME in Quran. The mere fact that you people take the shelter of arabic word "Ateeho" to justify the blind following of all that which had been rightly/wrongly termed as "Hadith".
The 28 verses in Quran with the "Hadith" are:
[4:42, 4:78, 4:87, 4:140, 6:68, 7:185, 12:6, 12:21, 12:101, 12:111, 18:6, 20:9, 23:44, 31:6, 33:53, 34:19, 39:23, 45:6, 51:24, 52:34, 53:59, 56:81, 66:3, 68:44, 77:50, 79:15, 85:17, 88:1]
I have given U readily available source. Now You decide what is the logic of translating the arabic word "ateeho" as "Hadith". Moreover, if "Atteho" word is Hadith as you claim then, where are the Hadith of Ulil amr (4:59) becuase here the word "ateeho" has been used for both Rasool and Ulil Amar. Where are the Hadith of Pharon because His nation made his Atteh (43:54), Where are the Hadiths of all other Prophets, who as per Quran asked their Attehat. Therefore, logically you do not have any support from these arabic words, Try something else, please.

aap ka sub se bara masla yeh hai k aap sirf translation se hee saarey masley hul kerna chahtey hien...jo k intihai kisam ki kum ilmi aur hut dharmi hai.

Ulma e Hadeeth ne Hadeeth ka lafz
Qol e Rasool,
Amal e Rasool
aur Taqreer e Rasool (sallal laahu alahi wasallam)
k bayaan per bola hai, isi terha lafz Sunnah bhi buhat dafa in teenon k liye istamaal hota hai...istalaahee tor per lafz Hadeeth aik jaamey lafz hai.

Quran mien hamien jaa baja Allah ki ataa'at k saath saath Allah k Nabi (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) ki ataa'at ka bhi hukum diya gaya hai...zahir si baat hai ye ataa'at sirf os dor k liye khaas nahi thee balkey ye hukum daa'imee hai.
is baat ko naa sirf Allah k Rasool (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) k zariye se Sahabaa ki poori jamaat aur inkey baad aaney waley tamam Ulama e deen ne samjhaa aur isi hukum ko baad k aaney walon k liye mumkin bananey k liye Ahadeeth yaad kerney, likhney ka ehtamam kiya. Aur saath hee saath is ki hifazet k liye ilmul rijaal aur asanaad (chain) ko mutarif kerwaya, aur yahin tuk bus nahi balkey aik pori Science is liye wojood mien aayee aur aisey aisey oloom mutaarif howey jo kisi bhi terha se aik mojazey se kum nahi.

yeh saarey oloom sirf Ahadeeth ki hifazet ka zariya baney jo k der asal Quran k fehem aur os ki amli taabeer ki hifaazet hai. is terha na sirf yeh k Quran apney alfaaz k saath mehfooz howa balkey os ki practical guidance bhi mehfooz hogayee...SubhanaAllah.

Quran says in Chapter Ahzab verse 21:

??????? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ??????? ???????? ????????? ?????? ????? ????????? ??????? ??????????? ????????? ???????? ??????? ?????????

" Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the praise of Allah"

Hamara (ahlessunnah wal jamaat) ka yeh aqeedah aur imaan hai k yeh sub woh asbaab hien jo Allah (subhanwutaallah) ne paida kiye taakey deen jo naam hai Allah aur os k Rasool (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) ki ataat ka os deen ko mukammal tor per mehfooz kiya jaa sakey.

Aap chon k Ahadeeth k ilm se mutalik bilkul naa wakif hien is liye aap ka zehen aik confused zehen hai. aur aap k paas ilzaamaat, ohaam aur shobhaat k ilawa kuch nahi. jaisa k aagey aaraha hai... inshaAllah.

From whole of Book if only few things turned to be false, the whole premise falls down.

yeh konsa osool hai? kis ne muttarif kerwaya yeh osool? aur kiya yeh osool tamaam kisam ki books per aply hota hai? kiya ahadeeth k majmo'on per bhi yeh osool isi terha aply hota hai?

aap ki yeh baat jo k ahadeeth k majmo'on se mutalik hai tu be asal hai...kiyon k ahadeeth ki kutub wo waahid ilm hai jo asanaad (chain) k saath likha gaya...yaani likhney waley ne yeh baat (hadeeth) kis se lee aur jis se lee os ne kis se lee aur os ne kis se sonee aur os ne kis sonee, is terha poori chain ko Allah k Nabi (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) tuk ponhchaaya jaata hai. Phir os chain ko perekhney k liye ulema ne alag oloomm mutaarif kerwaye, ulema ne logo k ehwaal likhey onkey ostaadon ka ziker kiya aur ostaadon k ehwaal likhey onka jeena, merna aur ikhlaq aur hafza sub ki wazahat ki...tub kahin jaa k aik hadeeth ko Sahee yaa Zaeef ya koi dosra hukum lagaya gaya. aap apni laa ilmi ki saza ahaadeeth ko be'etbaar kerar de ker kiyo de rahey hien.?

"The number of hadiths collected and attributed to the prophet Muhammed is in the hundreds of thousands, as much as 700,000. As much as 99% of all these hundreds of thousands hadiths are pure lies and fabrications and were rejected by the early Muslim scholars who thought they can figure out which hadith is authentic and which is not. Let us look at some of the famous hadiths collectors and what they collected.

1) bus yahin se aap ka bhandaa phoot gaya....99% ahadeeth jhoot aur mangharat thin is ka soboot dijiye...is se ziyada exaggeration aap ker nahi saktey they is liye 99% likhdiya. sirf ilzaam se kaam nahi chalega aap soboot dijiye aur ager soboot na de sakey tu aap "jhootey".

2) Ahadeeth ko fabricate kerney ki koshish zaror ki gayee, meger alhamdulillah ulema ne asanaad (chains) ka aik aisa nizaam mutarif kerwadiya thaa jo insaani taareekh ne kabhi socha bhi na thaa... jis ki badolat alhamdulillh kharey aur khotey ko alag kerna mumkin hogaya aur asaan hogaya. jis ka aitraaf aap khod bhi ker rahey hien k "ulema ne fabricated ahadeeth ko reject kerdiya" Alhamdulillah.

3) her shuks jaanta hai k market mien jaali dawaaiyaan (fake medicines) milti hien... kiya in fake medicine k honey ki waja se kisi ne asal dawai (original medicine) ka istamal chor diya hai? nahi kiyo k original medicine hamari zarorat hai aur Government aur companies ne asal aur nakal mien farak kerney k osool muttarif kerwaye howey hien aur is ka poora ehtamaam kiyaa jaat hai...

bus isi terha zaeef ul asnaad ahadeeth ko judge kerney ka aik poora nizaam hai jis se sahee aur zaeef alag hojaati hien tu phir saheeh ahadeeth ko reject kerney ki kiya tuk hai? siwai apni khowahishey nafs ki perwai k.

(1) Malik Ibn Anas collected about 500 hadiths in his famous book, "Al-Muwattaa"

(2) Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, collected about 40,000 hadiths, in his famous "Musnad".He chose these 40,000 hadiths from among 700,000 hadiths. In other words he thought 660,000 hadith were un-proven, lies and/or fabrications and the others may be authentic. That is 94% lies and fabrications

(3) Bukhary collected about 600,000 hadiths and accepted 7275 hadiths and considered 592,725 hadiths to be un-proven hadiths,lies and/or fabrications, that is almost 99% of what he collected .

(4)Moslem collected 300,000 hadiths and only accepted 4000 of them, and refused about 296,000 . that is almost 99% of these collected hadiths .

This will give you an idea of how much corruption entered or tried to enter Islam from the back door."

aap ki kum ilmi ka aik aur bhaanda phoot gaya....

1) Imam Bukhaari ka 600,000 ahadeeth mien se 7275 ko apni Sahee Bukhari mien shamil kerna kahan sabit kerta hai k baaki 592,725 ahadeeth un-proven, aur fabricated thin??? sabit kijiye.

2) aap k ilm mien izaafaa ker lijiye k ye 600,000 ahadeeth apney matan (text) k hisaab se 600,000 nahi thin balkey apni sanad (chain) k lihaaz se 600,000 thin...

yeh isi terha hai k ager kahin koi incident ho aur mujhey 10 log os incident ki khaber dien (ahlul hadeeth k nazdeek yeh 10 ahadeeth count hongee aur jo kaha jaat hai k Imam Bukhari k paas 600,000 ahadeeth thin tu woh isi terha hien naa k text k hisaab se), aur ager mien aagey woh incident bayaan keron tu zarori tu nahi k mien 10 k 10 logo k naam lon, balkey aik sacchey (imaandaar) shuks ko muntakhib ker k aur os ka naam le ker mien incident kisi ko bayan kersakta hon... ab is ka matlab yeh tu nahi k baaki 9 jo hien woh jhootey they.

zahir hai in mien kuch zaeeful asnaad ahadeeth bhi thin aur kaseerul asnaad bhi...aur in ahadeeth mien se imam bukhari (rahimahullah) ne jo best sanad k saath jo hadeeth thee osey apnee Sahee mien shamil kerdiya aur baaki ko chor diya...Alhamdulillah...

deeger ulema ne apni apni kutub mien yehee rawayya apnaayaa aur Imam Bukhaari aur aur Imam Muslim k ilaawa kuch ulema ne apni apni kutub mien zaeef bhi shamil kerdin meger chon k saath mien asnaad (chain) ziker kerdigayee isl iye inki pehchaan mumkin hogayee....

Ager aap ka koi aur shobaa/weham ho tu inshaAllah os ka bhi jawab mil jaiga.

Sunnah were the practical practices and travelled from generations to generations. We learned Salaat how to perform it from practices of elders.

.yeh practices important thin tu generation tu generation pass on howin.. isi ehmiyet ka aap kabi ikraar kertey hien aur kabhi inkaar. (quite confused haan!!!) ager Allah k Nabi (salall laahu alaihi wasallam) ki practices ko asanaad (chains) k zariye Muhaditheen ne mehfooz kiya taakey qayamet tuk k log Sahee ahadeeth/authantic Sunnah per amal ker sakien tu aap ko kiya problem hai..

Why it should not be! Namaaz was ordered immediately. Hence people should have been told what to read, where to start and where to end. Are you of the view that Naamaz kept on changing all the time. If Hadith teaches the Namaaz, then there must be only one Hadith containing all the Namaz which we present day recite.

kiya Quran mien tamam wakiyaat aik saath bayaan kiyegaye hien? mien samjhta hon k aap ka yeh mutalbaa k pori namaaz k liye aik hee hadeeth honee chahiye Ahadeeth k ilm se bilkul be khabri hai, ager aisa hee mutalba aik non muslim quran k liye kerdey k Moosa (alaihissalam) ka wakiya aik hee chapter mien hona chahiye alag alag nahi tu?????..ahadeeth woh khabrien hien jo Sahaba na aagey k logo tuk ponhchaayee aur jis muhaaddith k paas jo khaber sanad (chain) k saath thee woh os shuks (muhaddith) ne aagey pass on ki...is mien zarori tu nahi k poori namaaz aik saath bayaan ki jaye.

Khod Quran mien bhi Ambiya k wakiyaat aur halaat ko aik saath nahi bayaan kiya gaya...aur alag alag chapters mien bayaan kiya gaya hai...wakiye ka aik hissa aik chapter mien aur aik hissa aik chapter mien....kiya phir Quran bhi mashkook hogaya.

Patriot can defend himself if he so wishes. But as far as I am concerned, you have made a blatant accusation against me. I do not need your certificate of any kind, mine are mine deeds and yours are yours. I can only say, let the curse of Allah be on those who lie about others. Sunnah/Hadeeth, u seem to be struggling for the choice of words. Open your eyes the word "Hadith" has been abundantly used in Quran. Check the above part.


What accusations I have made against you?? aap keh dien k aap ne kabhi Ghulam Ahmed Pervaiz ko nahi perha... yaa app kehdien k aap os ko nahi jaantey. yaa aap kehdien k aap osko apna ustaad yaa murabbi nahi maantey...aap kehdien k aap oska ehtraa nahi kertey.

Care the read the thread from the beginning, you may find my stance "Crystal n clear". Only those people trained in "rote concept" and "lacking the average intelligence" will require to read the 50 plus volumes of Hadiths just to understand only One Book called Quran wherein Allah said it is the easiest one to understand. You people even do not know how to defend the terminology of "Hadith" and are struggling for choice of words.

It is not just the matter of words....aap ko makaam e nabuwwat ka ilm nahi...Makaam e Nabuwwat ka takaazaa hai, aur Allah k Nabi (sallal Laahu Alaihi Wasallam) k Akhri Nabi honey ka takaazaa hai Quran aur os k fehem ka wahid authantic zariya (ahadeeth) mehfooz hon...Quran Allah k Nabi (sallal laahi alaihi waslalam) ko "Oswaa e Hasana" karar de raha hai...yaani Role Model...yaani Alalh k Nabi (salall laahu alaihi wasallam) ne jis terha Quran pe amal ker k dikhaaya osi terha hamin bhi amal kerna hai...Allah k Nabi (salall laahu alaihi wasallam) ka Role Model hona sirf Sahaba k zamaney tuk nahi thaa...aaj bhi woh hamarey Role Model hien...Onkey Ikhlaaq, Onka chalna phirna, Onki moa'ashirat, Onki Maaishat, Onkey faisley, Onki soch, Onki bahaduri, Onki hikmat, Onki Hukumat, Onki ajzi, Onki Inkasari yeh sub hamarey liye masha'aley raah hien...Makaam e Nabuwwat ko samjhey k liye Quran k baghor mutaalaa kerien..inshaAllah mien kisi wakt woh Quran ayaat zaror quote keronga jo makaam e Nabuwwat ka taaiyun kertee hien.

IN WHICH "HADITH" AFTER THIS WILL THEY THEN BELIEVE?": (Sura 7:185). "THESE ARE THE REVELATIONS OF God WHICH WE RECITE TO YOU CORRECTLY. IN WHAT OTHER "HADITH" THAN God AND HIS REVELATIONS WOULD THEY THEN BELIEVE?" (Sura 45:6).

Hamara yakeen hai k ahadeeth bhi Revelations hien...Wahee sirf Quran tuk mehdood nahi thee...aap daawaa/claim kerien k wahee sirf Quran tuk mehdood thee mien inshaAllah os ko ghalat sabit keronga Quran se hee.

Quran, no doubt is the catalyst for all other material to be judged. Its authority is absolute and must.

yes you are right...and alhamduilllah...to understand Quran we need ilmul hadeeth. without the guidance of Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) Quran could not be understood. thats why Allah said in Quran.

Albaqarah:
?? ????? ?? ! ?? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? (?) ?? ?? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????, ????? ???? ????? (?) ??????
??? ????? ??? ???, (?) ?????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?

( ??? ) ?? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ?? ????? ????

quite clear ayah....responsibility of the Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) was not only to just conveying Quran, but to teach them Kitab and Hikmah as well as Tazkiya (paak kerna).

Allah hamien huq per chalney aur os per amal ki taufeeq ataa farmaye. aameen.

 

[abduttawwab]

So what's your understanding of '??????????? ??????? ??????????? ?????????? '?

Obey Allah and Obey Rasool(PBUH). Definitely in my understanding these words
do not qualify to "follow Hadith". Do you believe that Allah was short of words to use in Quran or you seem to be naive that the word "Hadith" itself has been used TWENTYEIGHT TIME in Quran. The mere fact that you people take the shelter of arabic word "Ateeho" to justify the blind following of all that which had been rightly/wrongly termed as "Hadith".
The 28 verses in Quran with the "Hadith" are:
[4:42, 4:78, 4:87, 4:140, 6:68, 7:185, 12:6, 12:21, 12:101, 12:111, 18:6, 20:9, 23:44, 31:6, 33:53, 34:19, 39:23, 45:6, 51:24, 52:34, 53:59, 56:81, 66:3, 68:44, 77:50, 79:15, 85:17, 88:1]
I have given U readily available source. Now You decide what is the logic of translating the arabic word "ateeho" as "Hadith". Moreover, if "Atteho" word is Hadith as you claim then, where are the Hadith of Ulil amr (4:59) becuase here the word "ateeho" has been used for both Rasool and Ulil Amar. Where are the Hadith of Pharon because His nation made his Atteh (43:54), Where are the Hadiths of all other Prophets, who as per Quran asked their Attehat. Therefore, logically you do not have any support from these arabic words, Try something else, please.

I thought you would have understood what I am trying to ask you, but still you are playing with the words. If you are not happy with the word 'Al-Hadeeth', leave it .. call it 'Al-Sunnah' or there is still some problem with this word call it 'Sayings and actions of Rasoolullah (S.A.W)'
A person with basic knowledge of Arabic knows that single word is used in several meanings ... PLUS when we use term 'Al-Hadeeth', we mean its conventional (istelahi) meaning not the literal meaning.

My question was very simple, I repeat it again. Quran ordered Muslims to obey Rasoolullah (S.A.W) beside obeying Almighty Allah, so how can one obey Allah without knowing the sayings and actions of Rasoolullah (s.a.w) ?????

No, there is no question mark at all.
Muhadeseen (Experts of Hadeeth and Ilmur-Rijaal) has already done the classification of ahadeeth. And Mujtahedeen and Fuqhah (Experts of Fiqh) know very well hadeeth of which Class can be used to where. There is no confusion, so common ppl dont need to take any tension of screening, as it has already been done.

From whole of Book if only few things turned to be false, the whole premise falls down.
"The number of hadiths collected and attributed to the prophet Muhammed is in the hundreds of thousands, as much as 700,000. As much as 99% of all these hundreds of thousands hadiths are pure lies and fabrications and were rejected by the early Muslim scholars who thought they can figure out which hadith is authentic and which is not. Let us look at some of the famous hadiths collectors and what they collected.

(1) Malik Ibn Anas collected about 500 hadiths in his famous book, "Al-Muwattaa"

(2) Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, collected about 40,000 hadiths, in his famous "Musnad".He chose these 40,000 hadiths from among 700,000 hadiths. In other words he thought 660,000 hadith were un-proven, lies and/or fabrications and the others may be authentic. That is 94% lies and fabrications

(3) Bukhary collected about 600,000 hadiths and accepted 7275 hadiths and considered 592,725 hadiths to be un-proven hadiths,lies and/or fabrications, that is almost 99% of what he collected .

(4)Moslem collected 300,000 hadiths and only accepted 4000 of them, and refused about 296,000 . that is almost 99% of these collected hadiths .

This will give you an idea of how much corruption entered or tried to enter Islam from the back door."

How do you know that? From history? or from Quran?
Since you trust only on Quran and dont trust on institution of Hadeeth, as well as on history. You should not quote these numbers with incomplete information.

Subhan`Allah - do you know what are you saying???
And in your eyes, only solution of removing the differences is to leave the ahadeeth. (naozobillah)

The whole scenario was changed after 40 years of the death of our Prophet(PBUH). That is fact and reality.

Nonsensical statement. Did Allah send Prophet (peace be upon him) only for this generation who live till 40 years after Rasoolullah's demise (peace be upon him) ??? ??? ???

From the same Quran, need and importance of Sunnah and Ijmaa' are proved.

Sunnah were the practical practices and travelled from generations to generations. We learned Salaat how to perform it from practices of elders. "Ijmaa" is proved in Quran, please show me the verse, BTW what you mean by this word?

First understand Sunnah, after that insha`Allah you'll able to know Ijmaa and Qiyas also

Why is it necessary that 'It has to only one Hadith' ?

Why it should not be! Namaaz was ordered immediately. Hence people should have been told what to read, where to start and where to end. Are you of the view that Naamaz kept on changing all the time. If Hadith teaches the Namaaz, then there must be only one Hadith containing all the Namaz which we present day recite.

You are saying that the procedure of Namaz should must be in one and single hadeeth.
Then the laws of Nikah, Inheritance, divorce etc are also in one verse or sorat of Quran?Please don't give senseless statements. please!

Brother abduttawwab, i know the group of babadeena and patriot, they are follower of Ghulam Ahmed Pervaiz and he was one of the Rejectors of Hadeeth...but they have got very tricky mind...when will be stuck they would accept hadeeth to explain quran but when every they would want they will categorically deny accepting Sunnah/Hadeeth.

Patriot can defend himself if he so wishes. But as far as I am concerned, you have made a blatant accusation against me. I do not need your certificate of any kind, mine are mine deeds and yours are yours. I can only say, let the curse of Allah be on those who lie about others. Sunnah/Hadeeth, u seem to be struggling for the choice of words. Open your eyes the word "Hadith" has been abundantly used in Quran. Check the above part.
[quote:32dl6yi8]@babdeena... what is your stance on Hadeeth? is it neccessary to understand Quran????

Care the read the thread from the beginning, you may find my stance "Crystal n clear". Only those people trained in "rote concept" and "lacking the average intelligence" will require to read the 50 plus volumes of Hadiths just to understand only One Book called Quran wherein Allah said it is the easiest one to understand. You people even do not know how to defend the terminology of "Hadith" and are struggling for choice of words.

IN WHICH "HADITH" AFTER THIS WILL THEY THEN BELIEVE?": (Sura 7:185). "THESE ARE THE REVELATIONS OF God WHICH WE RECITE TO YOU CORRECTLY. IN WHAT OTHER "HADITH" THAN God AND HIS REVELATIONS WOULD THEY THEN BELIEVE?" (Sura 45:6).

Quran, no doubt is the catalyst for all other material to be judged. Its authority is absolute and must.
[/quote:32dl6yi8]
Please spend some to learn also what Quran says about need and importance of Sunnah. Please read this article viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18422 with cool and open mind; I hope it would really help (insha`Allah).

Wassalam

 

[abduttawwab]

Quran, no doubt is the catalyst for all other material to be judged. Its authority is absolute and must.

yes you are right...and alhamduilllah...to understand Quran we need ilmul hadeeth. without the guidance of Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) Quran could not be understood. thats why Allah said in Quran.

Albaqarah:
?? ????? ?? ! ?? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? (?) ?? ?? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????, ????? ???? ????? (?) ??????
??? ????? ??? ???, (?) ?????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?

( ??? ) ?? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ?? ????? ????

quite clear ayah....responsibility of the Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) was not only to just conveying Quran, but to teach them Kitab and Hikmah as well as Tazkiya (paak kerna).

Allah hamien huq per chalney aur os per amal ki taufeeq ataa farmaye. aameen.

Sum Aameen!

Jazak`Allahu khaira brother, for your contribution

 

[babadeena]

@Such bolo!
Can you convert your post into English. Basic courtesy is that the language should be which everyone can understand. I myself found it difficult to understand what about the one who even do not know that language.

In the meantime, please check the "Responsibility of our Prophet(PBUH) as stated in Quran".

http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/l00050/pro ... ity/p.html

Enjoy reading it in your language loud n clear. Please do not twist Quranic verses.
Reading the verses, teaching book, giving wisdom everything is Quran and it is not
entering into your mind.

 

[such bolo]

@Such bolo!
Can you convert your post into English. Basic courtesy is that the language should be which everyone can understand. I myself found it difficult to understand what about the one who even do not know that language.

In the meantime, please check the "Responsibility of our Prophet(PBUH) as stated in Quran".

http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/l00050/pro ... ity/p.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Enjoy reading it in your language loud n clear. Please do not twist Quranic verses.
Reading the verses, teaching book, giving wisdom everything is Quran and it is not
entering into your mind.

so in your point of view Reading, teaching and giving wisdom are synonyms?

1) if a student says that my teacher is reading the book.
2) or if he says that my teacher is teaching the book.
3) or if he says that my teacher is giving wisdom...

in your intellect all above sentences giving same meanings?

 

[babadeena]

????? ??????????? ??????? ???????? ???????? ??????? ?????????? ?????????
Who reads (recites) our verses. (Verses are of Quran)
??????????????
And He purifies you (by giving you quranic teachings)
??????????????? ?????????? ?????????????
and He gives u elim (or teaches you) Kitab (Quran) and Wisdom( Quran-al-Hakeem)
?????????????? ???? ???? ?????????? ???????????
and he teaches you what you still did not know. (Definitely before Quran and
the commandments contained therein who was knowing them)

From where your Hadiths and "your-projected" Sunnah, Let me tell you one more thing if it gets you:
"You people have borrowed the arabic words "Hadith" and "Sunnah" from Quran" Show me if in Quran the arabic words are like "Hadith-e-rasool" or "Sunnat-e-Rasool"
Be my guest as far as Quran is concerned.

Please translate your previous post in English so that proper reply may be given to you.
Until then.

 

[abduttawwab]

So what's your understanding of '??????????? ??????? ??????????? ?????????? '?

Obey Allah and Obey Rasool(PBUH). Definitely in my understanding these words
do not qualify to "follow Hadith". Do you believe that Allah was short of words to use in Quran or you seem to be naive that the word "Hadith" itself has been used TWENTYEIGHT TIME in Quran. The mere fact that you people take the shelter of arabic word "Ateeho" to justify the blind following of all that which had been rightly/wrongly termed as "Hadith".
The 28 verses in Quran with the "Hadith" are:
[4:42, 4:78, 4:87, 4:140, 6:68, 7:185, 12:6, 12:21, 12:101, 12:111, 18:6, 20:9, 23:44, 31:6, 33:53, 34:19, 39:23, 45:6, 51:24, 52:34, 53:59, 56:81, 66:3, 68:44, 77:50, 79:15, 85:17, 88:1]
I have given U readily available source. Now You decide what is the logic of translating the arabic word "ateeho" as "Hadith". Moreover, if "Atteho" word is Hadith as you claim then, where are the Hadith of Ulil amr (4:59) becuase here the word "ateeho" has been used for both Rasool and Ulil Amar. Where are the Hadith of Pharon because His nation made his Atteh (43:54), Where are the Hadiths of all other Prophets, who as per Quran asked their Attehat. Therefore, logically you do not have any support from these arabic words, Try something else, please.

I thought you would have understood what I am trying to ask you, but still you are playing with the words. If you are not happy with the word 'Al-Hadeeth', leave it .. call it 'Al-Sunnah' or there is still some problem with this word call it 'Sayings and actions of Rasoolullah (S.A.W)'
A person with basic knowledge of Arabic knows that single word is used in several meanings ... PLUS when we use term 'Al-Hadeeth', we mean its conventional (istelahi) meaning not the literal meaning.

My question was very simple, I repeat it again. Quran ordered Muslims to obey Rasoolullah (S.A.W) beside obeying Almighty Allah, so how can one obey Rasoolullah (S.A.W) without knowing his sayings and his actions ?????

No, there is no question mark at all.
Muhadeseen (Experts of Hadeeth and Ilmur-Rijaal) has already done the classification of ahadeeth. And Mujtahedeen and Fuqhah (Experts of Fiqh) know very well hadeeth of which Class can be used to where. There is no confusion, so common ppl dont need to take any tension of screening, as it has already been done.

From whole of Book if only few things turned to be false, the whole premise falls down.
"The number of hadiths collected and attributed to the prophet Muhammed is in the hundreds of thousands, as much as 700,000. As much as 99% of all these hundreds of thousands hadiths are pure lies and fabrications and were rejected by the early Muslim scholars who thought they can figure out which hadith is authentic and which is not. Let us look at some of the famous hadiths collectors and what they collected.

(1) Malik Ibn Anas collected about 500 hadiths in his famous book, "Al-Muwattaa"

(2) Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, collected about 40,000 hadiths, in his famous "Musnad".He chose these 40,000 hadiths from among 700,000 hadiths. In other words he thought 660,000 hadith were un-proven, lies and/or fabrications and the others may be authentic. That is 94% lies and fabrications

(3) Bukhary collected about 600,000 hadiths and accepted 7275 hadiths and considered 592,725 hadiths to be un-proven hadiths,lies and/or fabrications, that is almost 99% of what he collected .

(4)Moslem collected 300,000 hadiths and only accepted 4000 of them, and refused about 296,000 . that is almost 99% of these collected hadiths .

This will give you an idea of how much corruption entered or tried to enter Islam from the back door."

How do you know that? From history? or from Quran?
Since you trust only on Quran and dont trust on institution of Hadeeth, as well as on history. You should not quote these numbers with incomplete information.

Subhan`Allah - do you know what are you saying???
And in your eyes, only solution of removing the differences is to leave the ahadeeth. (naozobillah)

The whole scenario was changed after 40 years of the death of our Prophet(PBUH). That is fact and reality.

Nonsensical statement. Did Allah send Prophet (peace be upon him) only for this generation who live till 40 years after Rasoolullah's demise (peace be upon him) ??? ??? ???

From the same Quran, need and importance of Sunnah and Ijmaa' are proved.

Sunnah were the practical practices and travelled from generations to generations. We learned Salaat how to perform it from practices of elders. "Ijmaa" is proved in Quran, please show me the verse, BTW what you mean by this word?

First understand Sunnah, after that insha`Allah you'll able to know Ijmaa and Qiyas also

Why is it necessary that 'It has to only one Hadith' ?

Why it should not be! Namaaz was ordered immediately. Hence people should have been told what to read, where to start and where to end. Are you of the view that Naamaz kept on changing all the time. If Hadith teaches the Namaaz, then there must be only one Hadith containing all the Namaz which we present day recite.

You are saying that the procedure of Namaz should must be in one and single hadeeth.
Then the laws of Nikah, Inheritance, divorce etc are also in one verse or sorat of Quran?Please don't give senseless statements. please!

Brother abduttawwab, i know the group of babadeena and patriot, they are follower of Ghulam Ahmed Pervaiz and he was one of the Rejectors of Hadeeth...but they have got very tricky mind...when will be stuck they would accept hadeeth to explain quran but when every they would want they will categorically deny accepting Sunnah/Hadeeth.

Patriot can defend himself if he so wishes. But as far as I am concerned, you have made a blatant accusation against me. I do not need your certificate of any kind, mine are mine deeds and yours are yours. I can only say, let the curse of Allah be on those who lie about others. Sunnah/Hadeeth, u seem to be struggling for the choice of words. Open your eyes the word "Hadith" has been abundantly used in Quran. Check the above part.
[quote:2xyk1yzf]@babdeena... what is your stance on Hadeeth? is it neccessary to understand Quran????

Care the read the thread from the beginning, you may find my stance "Crystal n clear". Only those people trained in "rote concept" and "lacking the average intelligence" will require to read the 50 plus volumes of Hadiths just to understand only One Book called Quran wherein Allah said it is the easiest one to understand. You people even do not know how to defend the terminology of "Hadith" and are struggling for choice of words.

IN WHICH "HADITH" AFTER THIS WILL THEY THEN BELIEVE?": (Sura 7:185). "THESE ARE THE REVELATIONS OF God WHICH WE RECITE TO YOU CORRECTLY. IN WHAT OTHER "HADITH" THAN God AND HIS REVELATIONS WOULD THEY THEN BELIEVE?" (Sura 45:6).

Quran, no doubt is the catalyst for all other material to be judged. Its authority is absolute and must.
[/quote:2xyk1yzf]
Please spend some time to learn also what Quran says about need and importance of Sunnah.
And read this article viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18422 with cool and open mind; I hope it would really help (insha`Allah).

Wassalam

 

[babadeena]

@Abduttawwab!!!
Brother you are again and again repeating the same things, that does not serve any purpose.

..................??? ???????? ????????? ???????? ?????????? ?????? ???????????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
I asked you where are the "Hadiths" of ????????? ?????????because the arabic word ???????????? has been used both for Rasool and ????????? ?????????.

For you the arabic word "??????????" is what volumes of Hadiths are, for me it is not. for me the "obedience of Allah and Rasool" is the "following Quran". You have to show me a Quranic verse which says that "Oh You believe follow the(book(s) of) Hadith of Rasool , side by side Quran". Now you wish to convey that "sayings and actions" of our Prophet(PBUH) are not contained in Quran but only in Bukhairi, Muslim, Tirmizi, IbneMaja etc. etc.
Show me mine post or section of that post where I said about not taking into consideration or ignoring "History" or "even about Hadith". You are just attributing your own-made conclusion to me. What I am saying and said that "since Hadith or History has become a matter of dispute between Believers, everything must be screened through Quran". Even few years ago the incident of Bhutto hanging happened, but even history is not "agreed upon" over this matter also. This is just an example.
Please discuss something with "substance". Rest your copy n paste article, I have gone through such material so many times. I do not wish to prolong this discussion any more so.
Thanks.

 

[taul]

You have to show me a Quranic verse which says that "Oh You believe follow the(book(s) of) Hadith of Rasool , side by side Quran".

--Brother babadeena i hope you won't mind telling what exactly is the meaning of hadith??

 

[babadeena]

--Brother babadeena i hope you won't mind telling what exactly is the meaning of hadith??

The 28 verses in Quran with the "Hadith" are:
[4:42, 4:78, 4:87, 4:140, 6:68, 7:185, 12:6, 12:21, 12:101, 12:111, 18:6, 20:9, 23:44, 31:6, 33:53, 34:19, 39:23, 45:6, 51:24, 52:34, 53:59, 56:81, 66:3, 68:44, 77:50, 79:15, 85:17, 88:1]

Brother after reading all these verses, I hope the "meaning" will be crystal clear. References are there. The main points are:
a) People Say that you cannot understand Quran until and unless you understand or resort to Hadith.
c) "Hadith" in their sense, are all those "sayings or actions" of our Prophet(PBUH) which are contained in Bukhairi, Timrizi, Muslim, Ibnemaja etc. etc.
d) They justify their position by resorting to Quranic verses which MAINLY contain the words "Ateeho". So In a way, the arabic word "ateeha-Rasool" is all those books mentioned above.
e) I have asked them, that Naoozubilla "was Allah in short of words, (specially when their favourite arabic word "Hadith" has been used 28 times in Quran, ) that they have to justify their stance by another word i.e. "atteho".

f) What about the same word "atteho" has been used for ulilamar, so do they have also some kind of hadiths?
thanks.

 

[taul]

--Brother so correct me if i'm wrong,you're saying the word "Hadeetha" that has been used in The Holy Quran means "All the things that our Prophet (Peace be upon him) said but are in The Holy Book" right!!

 

[babadeena]

--Brother so correct me if i'm wrong,you're saying the word "Hadeetha" that has been used in The Holy Quran means "All the things that our Prophet (Peace be upon him) said but are in The Holy Book" right!!

Where I said that, can u please give me post link or mine sentence in that post, please.

 

[taul]

Where I said that, can u please give me post link or mine sentence in that post, please.

--Brother,so what do you mean by hadeetha here??coz in arabic it is used for any thing "said or talking"!!!

 

[babadeena]

Where I said that, can u please give me post link or mine sentence in that post, please.

--Brother,so what do you mean by hadeetha here??coz in arabic it is used for any thing "said or talking"!!!

i) Here, it is "saying, fact" (baat, kalam)
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps05/ch05b.html#42
ii) Here , a baat, saying:
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps05/ch05i.html#78
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps09/ch09o.html#185
iii) word, statement etc
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps05/ch05j.html#87
iv) conversation, discussion
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps05/ch05v.html#140
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps07/ch07r.html#68

These are but a few from 28 verses, wherein the word Hadith has been used.
"Haidth here" we are referring to those "sayings" which had been attributed to our Prophet (PBUH). And these were written/compiled/written after 100 years (or plus) of the death of our Prophet (PBUH), by different persons including the famous Imam Bukhairi.

 

[taul]

i) Here, it is "saying, fact" (baat, kalam)
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps05/ch05b.html#42" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
ii) Here , a baat, saying:
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps05/ch05i.html#78" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps09/ch09o.html#185" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
iii) word, statement etc
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps05/ch05j.html#87" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
iv) conversation, discussion
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps05/ch05v.html#140" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps07/ch07r.html#68" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

--So we're clear on the meaning of "Hadeetha or hadeeth" that has been used in The Holy Quran refers to the above as you pointed out but NOT to what Prophet (Peace be upon him) said!!

 

[babadeena]

--So we're clear on the meaning of "Hadeetha or hadeeth" that has been used in The Holy Quran refers to the above as you pointed out but NOT to what Prophet (Peace be upon him) said!!

Again your sentence seems to convey something, and needs clarification a bit:
a) In a way, the whole of Quran is the Book of Hadith, here is the Quranic refernce:
................??????? ??????? ???????? ?????????? ????????
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps23/ch23zj.html#23" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The whole of Quran reached us through the tongue of our Prophet(PBUH), so he said it and we got it then.

b) Apart from Quran, what people attribute to our Prophet(PBUH) as having "said" and written in other books other than Quran, needs to be screened through Quran.
My only point of discussion is that "Screen everything through Quran", I am in no way against the work of those highly reputed personalities. I do not reject or accept their work "BLINDLY".