In Islam did Head of State granted Immunity?

[taul]

--I believe most people are unaware of the creation of wahhabism i'd request all to read the interesting article "Confessions of a British spy and British enmity against Islam".

http://www.sunna.info/antiwahabies/wahh ... m/spy1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Bret Hawk]

Brother duke my basic point of argument is not this that who was innocent and who was a culprit but my mere contention to the people like Oscar is to think rationally and with an open unbiased mind because when someones vision is obscured from the dust of hatred and partiality then he cant be able to see things with clarity and hence cant reach to the solid conclusions. Yazid Ibn Muawiyya might have been involved in that tragedy of Karbala according to many scholars but might not be involved as well as it is the position of some very resounding scholars as well. So my more emphasis is to think above the party, creed, sect and affiliations (Of any kind) lines and try to unearth the solutions of any disputes and problems which we as a representative of Muslim Ummah are facing in current times.



You have asked about my uncertainity in the matter of Karbala and who might been involved in that tragedy then my conjecture (Not with certainty) and doubts goes to the same group of ignorant militants who were behind the unjust killing of Hazrat Usman RA, the same group who rebelled against Hazrat Ali KAW and latter one of their members ventually killed him as well, the same group which were in majority of numbers in Kufa (Im pointing towards the Banu Hanifah and Banu Tamim tribes and their associates as well in the region of Najd which later rebelled against the Muslim empires of Umayyads and Abbasids) and the same deceptive group which later invited Imam Hussain RA and later killed him as well upon the realization of that gruelling fact that Imam Hussain RA might reach to Yazid in Damascus (Currently in Syria) and thought that they would be doomed at the hands of Yazid. Its a known fact that one of the three conditions of Imam Hussain RA to the Syrian army was to let him go to meet Yazid himself and he will Settle his dispute with him. Secondly whilst conducting some brief research from some sources I realised that according to some historians Yazid never actually ordered his army to intercept and kill the caravan of Imam Hussain RA. The Syrian army was just ordered to follow them and to use force only in defence or on the occasion of provocation of assault. Thirdly it has also widely reported that Yazid became antagonised and incensed on Ubaid Ullah Ibn Ziyad (The governor of Kufa at the time of Imam Hussain RAs martyrdom) and wanted to severe his head when the later demanded some high rewards and promotions from Yazid after the battle of Karbala. By the way it is interesting to note that Musylma Kazab (Who declared himself as the prophet even during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad SAW and later faced his horrible fate at the hands of Muslim army in the Caliphate of Hazrat Abu Bakar RA ) and Abdullah Ibn Wahab (The torch bearer of Salafi movement in the Arabian peninsula) and many of the followers of Salafi movement first get acknowledged and recognition in that same region of Najd where the Muslim Ummah suffered its worst enemies and rebels in the past and present era. Anyhow brother Duke my whole point is not to create this age long controversy that who was behind in what incident and who did what all I care is to invite my those friends and brothers to forsake the enmity and hatred for each other just because of our sacred sects and affiliations with some groups and try to resolve the age old controversies with an open heart and mind.

 

[oscar]

@Bret Hawk,
if you are confused about role of Yazeed in Hussain(RA)'s Shahadat, May Allah give you aqal.
I don't have doubt about Yazeed, and even his father. it just needs to be balanced.
second Caliph is quoted...If a dog starves to death by river Furaat, Caliph is responsible.
doesn't entire family of prophet(SAW) deserve equal burden of blame?

You talked about Bani Tamim and Bani Hanifa, but didn't Hazrat Umar (RA)brought Bani Umayya into power despite being Talqa'? who installed Muawia bin Abi Sufyan in Damascus?
fyi, he also allowed bani Tamim to settle in Kufa in contrast to Abubakar(RA)'s policy towards them.

and dear your definition of Sahaba is against Quran.
Mathematically speaking, by your definition, set of sahaba contains the Munafiqs mentioned in Quran. those who claim to believe in Allah and Rasul but don't.
when it comes to judje about "without any concrete allegation of his / her detraction / apostasy from that faith ", you can't see a problem with Yazeed either.
If your definition is true, any Munafiq who claims to be Muslim will be called Sahabi, just if he has seen Holy Prophet.

 

[babadeena]

babadeena I agree with you on making sects/divisions. Thats why I don't belong to any "bidat" of sect. (shia or sunni)

That is very nice to know. In fact creating or being in a sect, the punishment is awful and it seems we are getting somewhat:
"""And be ye not as those who separated and disputed after the clear proofs had come
unto them. For such there is an awful doom,"""
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps04/ch04b.html#105

still we need to know who was "more right" and who was "less right" in soft terms.

The degree of "knowing" is very important. What difference it will make to us or to our deeds if someone were right or other wrong. They cannot benefit us nor we can to them. Unto them are their deeds and unto us will be what we do. In no way, elevating somes and downgrading somes is not going to benefit to us at all rather it may become harmful.

and babadeena:

We dont have Islam thats why we have all these problems, in country and in Ummat. We are considering non-Muslims friends and making Muslims enemies, a dictator cannot kept his pant dry over a international phone call, this video(s) will remind you the history and few more facts.

Then your question "in Islam did Head of State granted Immunity" becomes only theoretical. And what is the need of that theory which is not applied in "practical". I have seen so many times that video. Northing new, the game of politics has been all along in so-called muslims the same from "Wars of Jamul, Saffin, Karbala, and Attack on Medina etc...". Unfortunately, the subsequent generations have taken these incidents into religion.

 

[gazoomartian]

i used to listen to Israr saheb. Wonderfully research and presented , MashAllah

Gazoo

 

[atensari]

Northing new, the game of politics has been all along in so-called muslims the same from "Wars of Jamul, Saffin, Karbala, and Attack on Medina etc...". Unfortunately, the subsequent generations have taken these incidents into religion.

like women do not mourn on Dead (Past), be man keep your head high for future

 

[oscar]

The degree of "knowing" is very important. What difference it will make to us or to our deeds if someone were right or other wrong. They cannot benefit us nor we can to them. Unto them are their deeds and unto us will be what we do. In no way, elevating somes and downgrading somes is not going to benefit to us at all rather it may become harmful.

It will make a difference in your life to know the difference of right and wrong. why Quran's more than half is filled with qasas of earlier people?
"Mitti paao" policy is criminal coverup. due to it, "naive" people like Bret Hawk "cannot find a proof of Yazeed's invlovement in Hussain(RA)'s Shahadat.
and don't tell that this mitti paao policy is "innocent". it is designed with a purpose of deception.
inna lillah e wa inna ilahe rajeoon

 

[oscar]

Northing new, the game of politics has been all along in so-called muslims the same from "Wars of Jamul, Saffin, Karbala, and Attack on Medina etc...". Unfortunately, the subsequent generations have taken these incidents into religion.

like women do not mourn on Dead (Past), be man keep you head high for future

doesn't even deserve a comment.

 

[oscar]

i used to listen to Israr saheb. Wonderfully research and presented , MashAllah

Gazoo

I used to.
during his tafseer of a quranic ayat, he told, "Mastrubation is jaaiz" per "Waallatheena hum lifuroojihim hafithoon"

 

[atensari]

I used to.
during his tafseer of a quranic ayat, he told, "Mastrubation is jaaiz" per "Waallatheena hum lifuroojihim hafithoon"

Which Tafseer?

I will give details of trial, but then don't run around to delet the thread.

Did you posted the details of trial, on which page?

 

[Bret Hawk]

@Bret Hawk,
if you are confused about role of Yazeed in Hussain(RA)'s Shahadat, May Allah give you aqal.
I don't have doubt about Yazeed, and even his father. it just needs to be balanced.
second Caliph is quoted...If a dog starves to death by river Furaat, Caliph is responsible.
doesn't entire family of prophet(SAW) deserve equal burden of blame?

I admire that people who themselves are in desperate need of intellect prays for others to have that faculty. I hope that you might have established that fact related to Yazid as I reckon your research on that historical event might have spanned for decades and yet to know the role of filthy Najdi tribes and other heinous forces (Ibn Sabas followers as well) in that tragedy of Karbala. As far as responsibility of Yazid is concerned yes Im with you on this point that he should have punished the killers of Imam Hussain RA and his household if he didnt issued the orders of their unjust murder.


You talked about Bani Tamim and Bani Hanifa, but didn't Hazrat Umar (RA)brought Bani Umayya into power despite being Talqa'? who installed Muawia bin Abi Sufyan in Damascus?
fyi, he also allowed bani Tamim to settle in Kufa in contrast to Abubakar(RA)'s policy towards them.


So you think Hazrat Umar RA was not competent enough to take the administrative and political decisions and thats why people like Dr M. hart, Gandhi and other (Non-Muslim intellectuals) termed him the greatest reformer of the world who introduced and revived the concepts of welfare and just state in that era and only you have the audacity to doubt his decisions of appointing Muawiya as a governor of Damascus and shifting the militant tribes of Najd into the military garrison of Kufa, where coincidently Hazrat Ali KAW also later shifted his attention and moved the capital from Medina to Kufa during his Caliphate reign.. So according to your logic The gate of Knowledge also committed a grave mistake by doing that. Fair enough.


and dear your definition of Sahaba is against Quran.
Mathematically speaking, by your definition, set of sahaba contains the Munafiqs mentioned in Quran. those who claim to believe in Allah and Rasul but don't.
when it comes to judje about "without any concrete allegation of his / her detraction / apostasy from that faith ", you can't see a problem with Yazeed either.
If your definition is true, any Munafiq who claims to be Muslim will be called Sahabi, just if he has seen Holy Prophet.

Again I think you might have reached to the status of a Mufti and grand scholar of the scale of Mujadideen to judge others Imaans and hypocrisy and thats also of those personalities which preceded you for just 1400 years ago. As if you were their in their gatherings and knew them personally. And finally that definition was provided according to the giant scholars of Islam not from the self professed buffoons who happen to judge centurys old complex issues and personalities and then pass the verdict in few moments. So theres must be more contemplation and deliberation from those scholars when they provided that definition and if you have problem with that then try to become the scholar of that stature first in order to challenge their opinions otherwise its easier for me to say Albert Einsteins theory of relativity as garbage and useless trash but I know I will not try to even think that unless do some proper research in that regard and would not like to display myself as an absolute idiot jackass as some people try to practise this kind of behaviour without having any shame and remorse.

 

[babadeena]

It will make a difference in your life to know the difference of right and wrong. why Quran's more than half is filled with qasas of earlier people?

Oscar! Look. There should or must be some rationale of comparing. On one side, you have given the reference of Quran, authenticity of which is beyond any doubt. Do not tell me that you wish to equate Quran with human written history of past events. So your example has no weight at all. Although I had already agreed that "take common factors of history written by all and then keep it for informative purpose".

"Mitti paao" policy is criminal coverup. due to it, "naive" people like Bret Hawk "cannot find a proof of Yazeed's invlovement in Hussain(RA)'s Shahadat.

Well Bret Hawk can explain this. But since you have used the proverb "mitti paao" as criminal policy to coverup. A criminal procedure is to get the culprits and punish him/her. Unfortunately lot of water had already flown under the bridge. This mitti paao policy is not for those who are present and commiting crimes. As you may have noticed I am of the view that Yazeed plus all of that time (without any exception), rather all who were involved from War of Camel till the attack of Madina, all have gone, their bones perished, their accounts with their lord. If I shall keep on cursing Yazeed day and night that is not going to add into his sins and mine good deeds, everyone was/is/will be responsible for all his/her acts.

and don't tell that this mitti paao policy is "innocent". it is designed with a purpose of deception.

Deception for what! As far as I am concerned, my concepts are clear and Thanks God I do not feel any problem.
Since you are insisting on knowing the right or wrong of past events then, please be kind to enlighten me on my following questions:
a) Was the wars of Camel, Saffin, Karbala, Attack on Medina between Muslims and Kafirs/Mushriks/Christians/Jews/ or between and among Muslims.

b) Was these wars were on "religion basis".

c) specifically tell me the two parties involve in War of Camel, were they both
Muslims?

d) What you will call those who were killed in those wars? Shaheeds, Murdered, or killed;

e) In our Prophet(PBUH)'s time the Capital was Medina, what were the reasons to shift it from that place to other places.

Now, Oscar prove me if religion was involved or politics was involved,. Please be brief and concise?

And if above questions put you in difficult situation, then be content with Quranic Ayats which teach that "those who have passed, took their acts and deeds with them, their reckoning is with Allah only"

inna lillah e wa inna ilahe rajeoon

What if I add, Qaloo before these words.

 

[AbuQais]

I used to.
during his tafseer of a quranic ayat, he told, "Mastrubation is jaaiz" per "Waallatheena hum lifuroojihim hafithoon"

LAANAT ULLAH HIL KAZIBIIN
You are sick minded, filled with hatred.
just like jews, quote someone partly without letting people know the context.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
What he said was, zana is a bigger sin than masturbation. and if it stops you from zana, then do it but still IT IS A SIN.

but to you Mastrubation is "najaaiz" and mutta' is "jaaiz" ???
ASTAGFIRULLAH.
LAANAT ULLAH HIL KAZIBIIN

 

[atensari]

doesn't even deserve a comment.

You don't have anything to say, you ppl are not "??? ?????", you have nothing in your account for Islam. I believe you accepted the Titles I gave you (2nd Page), ?????? ??? ???????

Waiting for Trial & Tafseer information

 

[oscar]

It will make a difference in your life to know the difference of right and wrong. why Quran's more than half is filled with qasas of earlier people?

Oscar! Look. There should or must be some rationale of comparing. On one side, you have given the reference of Quran, authenticity of which is beyond any doubt. Do not tell me that you wish to equate Quran with human written history of past events. So your example has no weight at all. Although I had already agreed that "take common factors of history written by all and then keep it for informative purpose".

Everything I have mentioned is from common history.

[quote:1lwj1z23]"Mitti paao" policy is criminal coverup. due to it, "naive" people like Bret Hawk "cannot find a proof of Yazeed's invlovement in Hussain(RA)'s Shahadat.

Well Bret Hawk can explain this. But since you have used the proverb "mitti paao" as criminal policy to coverup. A criminal procedure is to get the culprits and punish him/her. Unfortunately lot of water had already flown under the bridge. This mitti paao policy is not for those who are present and commiting crimes. As you may have noticed I am of the view that Yazeed plus all of that time (without any exception), rather all who were involved from War of Camel till the attack of Madina, all have gone, their bones perished, their accounts with their lord. If I shall keep on cursing Yazeed day and night that is not going to add into his sins and mine good deeds, everyone was/is/will be responsible for all his/her acts.

and don't tell that this mitti paao policy is "innocent". it is designed with a purpose of deception.

Deception for what! As far as I am concerned, my concepts are clear and Thanks God I do not feel any problem.
Since you are insisting on knowing the right or wrong of past events then, please be kind to enlighten me on my following questions:

[/quote:1lwj1z23]

a) Was the wars of Camel, Saffin, Karbala, Attack on Medina between Muslims and Kafirs/Mushriks/Christians/Jews/ or between and among Muslims.

Camel, Saffin, Karbala and Attack on Medina was between Muslims and Munafiqeen. You rememberd Kafirs/Mushriks/Christians/Jews/ but digested the real thing. btw, u r not the first to do this.

b) Was these wars were on "religion basis".

Wars were to save the institutionalized deen, "Khilafat e rashida". ever wonder why there were only four Khulafa and not five?

c) specifically tell me the two parties involve in War of Camel, were they both
Muslims?

This is how you hide Munafiqeen behind Um ul Momineen.Yaum ul Jamal was what she regreted for rest of her life.
just research why she thought so.
Marwan was prime motivator of this campaign and Umayyad Governers stole provincial treasuries to collect this lashkar against Ameer ul Momineen. (thus proving one major allegation against third Khalifa). even the gigantic camel used for Hazrat Ayesha(RA) was brought by umayyad governer from yemen. his trick to select this camel was very cunning as most of people got impressed by just its size.

d) What you will call those who were killed in those wars? Shaheeds, Murdered, or killed;

Killed in rebellion.

e) In our Prophet(PBUH)'s time the Capital was Medina, what were the reasons to shift it from that place to other places.

Fitna of Marwan (Jamal ) and Muawia bin Abi Sufyan (Saffin). It wasn't easy to handle two sides together from Madina. it used to take 40 days to travel from Madinah to Kufa.
Some more reasons why Abbasides used Baghdad (Near Kufah) as capital for next several centuries were Military importance, excess water, fodder, food, strategic and central location for land and water routes.

Now, Oscar prove me if religion was involved or politics was involved,. Please be brief and concise?

interpretation and Implementation of reigion was involved. That fitna ended Khilafat e rashidah. If Khilafat is part of religion, Yes it was about religion.

And if above questions put you in difficult situation, then be content with Quranic Ayats which teach that "those who have passed, took their acts and deeds with them, their reckoning is with Allah only"

Alhamdolillah, no difficult situation. those who created fassad and left their fasaad for rest of ummah need to be recognized.