Ibn Rushd vs Ghazali: Did the Muslim world take a wrong turn?

[Vitamin_C]

There is no way to disbelieve both of these statements by default. If you disbelieve one, then you must believe the other.

No I think you are still misunderstanding the concept.

You do not need to believe the other if you disbelieve in one of them.

I am going to explain it again so play close attention to what I say.

There is a third option which says "I dont know".

Going back to the example with the Gummy Bears where I ask you whether the number of gummy bears is even or odd number.

There are only two possibilities but since you dont know which one it is you will disbelieve that it is odd, but that doesnt mean that you believe its even. The honest answer is that you don't know.

So disbelief is not the same as believing in the opposite. Disbelief in God doesnt mean believing he does not exist, it just means you dont know yet and you are suspending judgement until you do know. So disbelieving that the number of Gummy bears does not mean you believe its an even number.

The difference is subtle but in Philosophy its a difference of day and night. Because the moment you make a claim you have to justify it and saying that you disbelieve that it exists and saying that you believe it doesnt exist are two completely different positions. Belief is a claim, disbelief is not a claim.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Example #
Consider the two statements below:

• Earth is the only place in the universe that has life.
• Life exists in places other than Earth.

There is no way to disbelieve both of these statements by default. If you disbelieve one, then you must believe the other.

Or

1. I accept this claim.
2. I don't know enough to judge this claim either way. (Default)
3. I believe this claim is false.

• Earth is the only place in the universe that has life.
• Life exists in places other than Earth

You can disbelieve in both those positions at the same time without contradiction.

Suppose these are the 2 premises:
Premise 1: You do not know if earth is the only place in the universe that has life
Premise 2: You do not know if life exists in places other than Earth

Now if I ask you 2 questions given the above premises are true:

Question 1: Do you believe Earth is the only place in the universe that has life?

Question 2: Do you believe that life exists in place other than Earth?

The logical answers to both these questions would be no, you dont believe in either of those 2 claims and its non-contradictory position.

 

[hammy_lucky]

No I think you are still misunderstanding the concept.

You do not need to believe the other if you disbelieve in one of them.

I am going to explain it again so play close attention to what I say.

There is a third option which says "I dont know".

Going back to the example with the Gummy Bears where I ask you whether the number of gummy bears is even or odd number.

There are only two possibilities but since you dont know which one it is you will disbelieve that it is odd, but that doesnt mean that you believe its even. The honest answer is that you don't know.

So disbelief is not the same as believing in the opposite. Disbelief in God doesnt mean believing he does not exist, it just means you dont know yet and you are suspending judgement until you do know. So disbelieving that the number of Gummy bears does not mean you believe its an even number.

The difference is subtle but in Philosophy its a difference of day and night. Because the moment you make a claim you have to justify it and saying that you disbelieve that it exists and saying that you believe it doesnt exist are two completely different positions. Belief is a claim, disbelief is not a claim.

:) You know from your own example of gummy bears that only one thing is possible. Either it will be odd or even. Nothing else.
Suspending the judgement without reason is not as same as Saying You don’t know. Why? Because Agnostics give reasons for suspending the judgement such as limitations of the human mind.
I already mentioned to you the limitations of the philosophical approach to solve this problem. But I guess you just want to stick with the established philosophical ways only.

 

[Vitamin_C]

You know from your own example of gummy bears that only one thing is possible. Either it will be odd or even.

Right. But you can take neither position because you don’t know which one it is.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Because Agnostics give reasons for suspending the judgement such as limitations of the human mind.

Yes but that argument doesn’t hold here because we are not suspending judgement due to limitations of human mind. We are suspending judgement because we do not have enough information to make a judgement. To make a judgement whether the number is even or odd, first we need to know what the number. Until then it is logical to say you don’t know and not make a judgement on whether it is even or odd.

 

[hammy_lucky]

Yes but that argument doesn’t hold here because we are not suspending judgement due to limitations of human mind. We are suspending judgement because we do not have enough information to make a judgement. To make a judgement whether the number is even or odd, first we need to know what the number. Until then it is logical to say you don’t know and not make a judgement on whether it is even or odd.

If your analogy is correct in gummy bears example. Please tell me what other information would you require to make a judgement about even or odd number?
I am very curious to know.
Whats the point of the question if I tell you the number?

 

[hammy_lucky]

• Earth is the only place in the universe that has life.
• Life exists in places other than Earth

You can disbelieve in both those positions at the same time without contradiction.

Suppose these are the 2 premises:
Premise 1: You do not know if earth is the only place in the universe that has life
Premise 2: You do not know if life exists in places other than Earth

Now if I ask you 2 questions given the above premises are true:

Question 1: Do you believe Earth is the only place in the universe that has life?

Question 2: Do you believe that life exists in place other than Earth?

The logical answers to both these questions would be no, you dont believe in either of those 2 claims and its non-contradictory position.

What a funny thing you have done.
You altered the questions yourself first.
By adding ‘You do not know’ you made both the questions same in meaning and then you are trying proving me that there are no contradictions.
I expected better response from you.

 

[Vitamin_C]

What a funny thing you have done.
You altered the questions yourself first.
By adding ‘You do not know’ you made both the questions same in meaning and then you are trying proving me that there are no contradictions.
I expected better response from you.

Well whether you believe or disbelieve in any of those statements depends on whether you know the truth about those statements.

If you do know the truth then there is no point in your question therefore I added "You do not know". Because in my Gummy Bear example you do not know how many gummy bears there are and therefore you are not in contradiction whether you say you dont believe there are even number of gummy bears or you say you dont believe there are odd number of gummy bears.

 

[Vitamin_C]

If your analogy is correct in gummy bears example. Please tell me what other information would you require to make a judgement about even or odd number?

You would atleast need to know how many gummy bears there are in the jar.

But the point of the question is that you dont know the number of gummy bears in the jar.

Which is why you do not believe its even number and you do not believe its odd number, you suspend judgement because you do not know.

 

[hammy_lucky]

You would atleast need to know how many gummy bears there are in the jar.

But the point of the question is that you dont know the number of gummy bears in the jar.

Which is why you do not believe its even number and you do not believe its odd number, you suspend judgement because you do not know.

I asked you what kind of ‘INFORMATION’ would you require which can ‘LEAD’ you towards the judgement if its an even number or odd?
The question leaves its entirety if you know the number.

Let me ask you a question.
You are talking to me. Do you believe I am human or an alien?

 

[Vitamin_C]

I asked you what kind of ‘INFORMATION’ would you require which can ‘LEAD’ you towards the judgement if its an even number or odd?
The question leaves its entirety if you know the number.

Let me ask you a question.
You are talking to me. Do you believe I am human or an alien?

Well you are using a computer, you are speaking English and your reasoning pattern follows that of a human so I believe you are human.

 

[hammy_lucky]

Well you are using a computer, you are speaking English and your reasoning pattern follows that of a human so I believe you are human.

Are you sure about it or you just have your reason to believe? Do you have faith in your reasoning ability to an extent where you are certain that I am not an alien?
Are your sensory and cognitive faculties perfect that you can achieve absolute certainty?

 

[Vitamin_C]

Are your sensory and cognitive faculties perfect that you can achieve absolute certainty?

They don’t have to be perfect and they don’t have to achieve absolute certainty. They need to be reasonably sufficient.

I trust my senses and reasoning abilities due to their repeated ability to demonstrate that they work.

Otherwise I would be dead right now walking off stairs or walking into traffic because my senses to see hear or think don’t work. But they do and that’s why I am alive.

 

[hammy_lucky]

They don’t have to be perfect and they don’t have to achieve absolute certainty. They need to be reasonably sufficient.

I trust my senses and reasoning abilities due to their repeated ability to demonstrate that they work.

Otherwise I would be dead right now walking off stairs or walking into traffic because my senses to see hear or think don’t work. But they do and that’s why I am alive.

So you are not 100% certain?
Your premise here is that your reasoning is sufficient enough (I assume that you meant they can be fallible) in determining the truth that l am Human and Not Alien. Right?
Have you travelled the whole universe to see if there are no other creature who can demonstrate the same abilities as I am presenting to you?
If there is an alien (every chance since the universe is huge) who can do the same as me and if you are unaware of it, where does it leave your judgement?
You believe I am human because you have not experienced otherwise.
You believed in your fallible abilities to rule me out as an alien.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Your premise here is that your reasoning is sufficient enough (I assume that you meant they can be fallible) in determining the truth that l am Human and Not Alien. Right?

Yes but the chance of that happening is so low is that it’s negligible.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Have you travelled the whole universe to see if there are no other creature who can demonstrate the same abilities as I am presenting to you?

I am not claiming there are no other creatures like that. There are no creature like that that I know of so there is no reason for me to believe there is such a creature. Based on what I know I am sufficiently certain that you are a human.

 

[hammy_lucky]

Yes but the chance of that happening is so low is that it’s negligible.

Please explain the process of your probability assigning process.
I guess that another of your premise.

 

[hammy_lucky]

I am not claiming there are no other creatures like that. There are no creature like that that I know of so there is no reason for me to believe there is such a creature. Based on what I know I am sufficiently certain that you are a human.

Your lack of knowledge cannot determine the reality of the universe. It can only determine your sense of reality according to your understanding.

Why here you didn't say I DON’T KNOW? and choose to believe in your fallible senses despite lack of knowledge.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Please explain the process of your probability assigning process.
I guess that another of your premise.

Well I have used my senses probably a few billion times in last few decades and they have failed me less than a hand full of times so one in a billion is a negligible probability.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Your lack of knowledge cannot determine the reality of the universe. It can only determine your sense of reality according to your understanding.

Your senses have nothing to do with it. Your eyes cannot read a book that doesn’t exist. If we haven’t attained knowledge of a certain topic like wormholes and aliens, it means science hasn’t reached there yet and until we get there the honest answer is I don’t know and I won’t believe until someone proves it to me.