How much does it cost to provide security and protection to Moharram processions and on Ashura?

Saladin A

Minister (2k+ posts)
I would like Pakistanis to stop being emotional and sentimental and calculate the cost of billions of rupees that this government spent on providing security, safety and protection to hundreds of thousands of Shias mourners during the ten days of Moharram and on the day of Ashura. But, it does not end there in Moharram but goes on through out the year. Though, every Muslim respects, adores and admires the sacrifices Hazarat Imam Hussein (RA) gave for the Deen of Islam but we live in the real world and should start thinking how we could minimize our costs and still provide the best kind of security to the mourners taking out hundreds of processions in the country? I believe that our Shia scholars and religious leaders should sit with the authorities and discuss about the economic effect of these processions on the government's treasures.

This government is bankrupt and is heavily in debt of World ban, IMF and the private sector. We are living on the hands out thrown at us by the USA and if it stopped giving us 1.5 billions dollars a year for the next five years, we will starve to death. And, we need to save every penny for the seventeen crores abjectly poor of the country and provide them with jobs, houses, education, food, gas, electricity and health care.

The fact of the matter is thatsectarianism was created to divide and harm Islam by the Jews and this fitna isstill being propagated by those who believe in it. Do we need division in ourDeene Islam and give Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and others anopportunity to ridicule us?


Why do we need rituals of public chestbeating with hands, blades, knives, hair pulling and prolonged mourning torevive Shiasim? Is it because we do not observe Ahkam-e Deen as prescribed inthe Quran and rely on the tragedy of Karbala and carry on with its manyfrivolous rituals which are forbidden to redeem our sins?


Hundreds of millions of Shias in the worldjoin the mourning procession of Ashura; I would like to ask a question: Howmany of them say their payers five times a day? How many of them keep fast inRamadan? How many of them lie, backbite, drink alcohol, gamble, have illicitsex, earn money with illegal and haram methods etc? These are the kinds of things that HazratImam Hussein (RA) hated, disapproved and preached against and observed every word ofthe Quran word by word.


How many of us remember what he preached?Perhaps some but we are the first ones to join a procession to mourn his deathand cry when we ignore and forget what Imam Hussein stood for, fought againstand sacrificed his life and seventy three of his family members. Let us not forget that he gave his life forthe Deen of Islam and Sunnah of his beloved grandfather, our beloved ProphetMohammed (SAWW) and against dajaliat and tauti nizam of his time. Let us allunite and stop divisions in our Deen and fight our enemies together who mock uswhen they see us divided.


I believe it the best way forward that andwe should come to common terms ondisagreements that have divided Muslims for over fourteen hundreds years. Shiaand Sunni scholars have for once in the history must resolve the issue ofsuccession of Khilafat by inheritance or through election. Both sects have toaccept the fact that there must be no division in Islam and those who create itor created propagated a fitna azeem that from the very inception has harmedIslam and the Islamic glorious civilization.
 

tariisb

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)


صدیوں سے جاری اختلافات ختم ہوں یا نا ہوں ، مگر ایک بات پر سب متفق ہو سکتے ہیں ، وہ یہ کہ ، کسی بھی انسان کا قتل ، گناہ اور انتہائی جرم ہے


اگر یہ ہو جاۓ تو ، بہت غنیمت ہو گا
 

Babatank

Senator (1k+ posts)
I don't get it why these kind of jeloos taking place in Pakistan. The organizer put lot of peoples security on risk. If you want to pay homage to Hazrat Hussain(ra) then start reciting darood shareef. This would effect more than taking part in jeloos which is sure not Islamic custom.
 

hans

Banned
Brother .... u r looking though a spyhole... all you can see is Shia and there issues.. but you cant see waht SSP and LJ are doing for the past 20 plus years.

Pakistan is fighting a long battle on its Afghan front.. tell me how much is it costing us?

Tell me how much does it cost us to keep our Military Might all along the Kashmir line.

the other way about would be to let Shia arm them selves, and advice them to take control of there Own protection.

What would you select, as for as Religious disparity you r reflecting, that can be discussed if we let them live. the way Extermination of minority is going on soon there be non left. We have become a nation like Nazi were around 1939. Only nation fit to rule and live are one breed rest r all animals.

So its better.... we take a very sharp U turn in out thought process before.... we fall apart.


Stop promoting Hate literature... Pakistan is damaged, and nothing good is going to happen ...
 
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FlyHigh

Senator (1k+ posts)
Only in Pakistan that we have reached such a state that we cannot even celebrate our religious festivites without being scared. But if you look at it closely our scholars have scuccessfully brought us to such a point.
 

zhohaq

Minister (2k+ posts)
The cost probably goes into the hundred of millions. With the week long closures, huge security requirements,mobile closures and closure of businesses.
It also increases resentment against Shias while attacks by extremest increase resentment towards Sunnis.

Now of course other sects have started their own procession as a show of force.
As when the state allow one group to do it you cant deny it to another,even if you dont agree with it,its also bound to provide similar security etc.In this race towards the bottom more an more eye catching and dangerous rituals will be added.

Tenuous religious basis will be cooked up by respective clergy. Media will be forced to cover these events.
Most of it is pretty ridiculous to look at and makes Muslim in general look like some strange unreasonable cult.
The charged sombre atmosphere and security challenges means it does even have cultural/tourism value like other such religious festivals through out the world.
The rheotric will grow more and more inflammatory. This will lead to repeated cycles of violence.

I think this will in a situation similar to the Orange order procession in Northern Ireland. Which causes similar problems every year.


An alternative is to hold these events in Jalsa Gah, stadiums or open grounds instead,
but I dont think any one will agree to this proposal.As we believe religion has to inconvenience others.
Tableeghi jamat to its credit gathers lakhs of people to some far away place and no one ever hears about it and the state does not ahve to provide much.

Personally apart from the Hajj which is a definate religious requirement.
I dont think there is much of a point to these rituals.
In Islam prayers are mostly personal b/w man and God. If its too showy or inconveniences others its something else.

When suicide bombing was peaking in KPK that exactly what was done in eid prayers where the govt asked mosques to hold them separately instead of in Eid Gah. Everyone from every sect followed it without complaints but the difference was it was not a sectarian issue.
 
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UKPakistani

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I think this will in a situation similar to the Orange order procession in Northern Ireland. Which causes similar problems every year.

Some people like to appear intelligent and learned by knowing something of other parts of the world. BUT

do tell me the comparison, when N Ireland has a population of about 1.5 mill compared to 180 Mill in Pak, then tell me when was the last time SUICIDE was used as a weapon in N I then convince me it is more than Loyalty to the Brits and Loyalty to the Irish that is the cause of what happens in NI

Finally convince me when was the last time someone died because they were merely marching in NI

So thanks for your learned intelligent and educated input, but it is no where near the truth

@Saladin A

PS No matter how many billions and trillions and Zillions it might cost, do you think the Shia will stop processions in Muharam because of "Economic" considerations. If so, You are well and truly disillisioned and ill informed

PPS do you know we have the same processions in Muharam in the UK in many cities and to date NOT ONE person has died, where sunnis and shia and all other sects co exist as minorities. Why because the "State" protects all participants. Sadly the same cannot be said of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan
 
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zhohaq

Minister (2k+ posts)
Some people like to appear intelligent and learned by knowing something of other parts of the world. BUT

do tell me the comparison, when N Ireland has a population of about 1.5 mill compared to 180 Mill in Pak, then tell me when was the last time SUICIDE was used as a weapon in N I then convince me it is more than Loyalty to the Brits and Loyalty to the Irish that is the cause of what happens in NI

Finally convince me when was the last time someone died because they were merely marching in NI

So thanks for your learned intelligent and educated input, but it is no where near the truth

You missed my point. The processions are now a source of community tension just like the Orange order parades in N.Ireland and Scotland. At one time it was not but it is now. Sectrainism in Derry and Glasgow is pretty bad. With complete segregation in many neighbourhoods.

In the troubles the Orange order parade had to be banned several times over the year due to riots and tensions
Routes were changed etc.And independent parades commission has to decide the routes, timings etc based on public safety, community sentiment , public convenience.

I am surprised you dont know this as its a major issue in N.Ireland and Scottish politics.
Its not about loyalty to England. It has to do with Protestants and Catholics who live close together but have a long and violent history.

Pakistan larger population makes things worse not better,add to this the easily available weaponry and explosives and the proliferation of armed groups and acute lack of police resources.

Its a security headache.

I am not saying it should be banned, what I am humbly suggesting that the way its done nowdays in Pakistan is nuisance and serves no purpose.If a few common sense restriction are taken, no one will be inconvenienced ,everyone would be safer and sectarian harmony would be better.

I dont know why you would take this personally.. You couldn't possibly have though everyone thinks this is a brilliant idea.

My opinion of the recent similar parades for Eid Milad, Martyrdom of Hazrat Usman Ghani RZ and Hazrat Umar Farooq RZ is the same.
If Iran can have a out right ban on "bloody self flagellation" cant you have at least some basic restrictions here.



Would England allow closure of streets for a week and massive security arrangement, closure of mobile phones for such an event. It would not.It would follow common sense policies and put the economy,public convenience and public safety over any things else.

Muslims overseas (of all sects) do hold all there religious functions but they dont resemble the utter self destructive mayhem that goes on here under the grab of religion.

Here is how the Shia community in New York does it:
The rest of the article is worth reading but I am extracting the first part of how its not a public nuisance.
http://www.allvoices.com/contribute...ura-in-new-yorkglimpses-of-a-sectarian-divide

Capturing Ashura in New York-glimpses of a sectarian divide

New York City : NY : USA | Dec 28, 2009 at 10:24 AM PST
BY BetwaSharma

NEW YORK--In 1985, Rizvi Qurrat was in her twenties when Shiite Muslims grieved openly, for the first time, on the streets of New York to commemorate the death of Imam Hussein, the Prophet Muhammad’s grandson.
“I used to be carefree then without any responsibilities," she said, smiling through tears. "Look how time has flown."
More than two decades later, on a nippy afternoon, Qurrat once again walks in the [HI]slow moving mourning procession down Park Avenue to mark Ashura, the tenth day of Muharram[/HI], with her two teenage daughters: “I have brought them every year since they were babies."
A young man holding up a towering sheet splashed with red paint leads hundreds of mourners and a white horse dressed up in war-regalia that symbolizes Zuljanah - the stallion that Hussein rode during the fight against Yazid’s forces, the second Caliph of the Umayyad Caliphate that ruled after the death of the Prophet Muhammad.
The men, singing loudly and beating their chests, lead the parade. They are followed by a sea of women dressed in black who chant poems describing grizzly scenes that played out in the battlefield of Karbala in Iraq in AD 680.
As New Yorkers hit the sales of the contiguous fashion stores from Valentino to DKNY, it [HI]takes about three hours to walk 15 blocks in the direction of the Pakistani embassy onMadison Avenue, with the NYPD closing down two streets at a time.[/HI]
Despite having seen his fair share of processions in the city, Officer Ryan Pelant, who was directing the traffic, finds this one unique. “When you see people crying and kissing the shield on the horse, you want to know what’s going on,” he said. “It is amazing to watch the energy that different cultures bring to the streets.”
[HI]During the long waits at traffic lights,[/HI] the women find time to keep their children out of mischief, talk politics and catch up on the latest news. Many are from India, Pakistan and Iran, and they exchange notes on deadly practices they have seen, especially men using daggers, swords and chains to inflict pain.
“There is a river of blood,” some of the elders in the group tell the younger members who have [HI]only witnessed the sanitized mourning in the US[/HI]. Still, even in New York, the [HI]men observe some elaborate rituals on the night of Ashura within the privacy of their mosques.
[/HI]“But these are practices that are dying,” said Mahrukh, a homemaker originally from Pakistan living in upstate New York.[HI] “People are now keen on things like blood donation camps….if you want to shed blood for Imam Hussein do it in a meaningful way.”
[/HI]The violent protests in Iran that accompanied these commemorations -- as well as the attacks by extremist Sunnis in Pakistan against Shiites observing Ashura that left more than a dozen people dead -- are also discussed.
“All this can happen in the third world,” said Mahrukh.[HI] “At least, here people won’t kill each other over different beliefs.” Accompanying the procession is a rag-tag group of Sunni Muslims holding up placards and shouting, “Imam Hussein died for Islam, not Shiaism.”[/HI]


 
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UKPakistani

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
You missed my point.



I think so did you, Come what may, you will NOT stop the Shia procesions in muharam in Pak

PS if you want to see Manchester UK then just youtube 404 moss lane east.... year after year since 1978

something i do know about, no trouble once ever 35 Muharams and counting
 

zhohaq

Minister (2k+ posts)
I think so did you, Come what may, [HI]you will NOT stop the Shia procesions in muharam in Pak[/HI]

PS if you want to see Manchester UK then just youtube 404 moss lane east.... year after year since 1978

something i do know about, no trouble once ever 35 Muharams and counting

Lol how would I do that??. You are being ridiculous.
If Ashura festivals (and other festivals) are held the same way as they are in Manchester no one would have a problem.I think they would be no need for security, public inconvenience and no closure of businesses for a week.

We would not even be having this discussion. Thats kind of my point.
If you are saying that its held in Manchester in the same way its held in Pakistan I will have to disagree.
 
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UKPakistani

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Lol how would I do that??. You are being ridiculous.
If Ashura festivals (and other festivals) are held the same way as they are in Manchester no one would have a problem.I think they would be no need for security, public inconvenience and no closure of businesses for a week.

We would not even be having this discussion. Thats kind of my point.
If you are saying that its held in Manchester in the same way its held in Pakistan I will have to disagree.

Yar you now me better than that
what I am saying is that Muharaam is the same for shia throughout the world...
and regardless of location or dangers it will take place Manchester or Mingora or Multan or Minnisota

Sadly however we agree tht there is FAR more danger hatred and complications about it in Pak and not in Manchester and elsewhere in UK Europe or USA. Dont you find that a little strange ?
 

Saladin A

Minister (2k+ posts)
[h=6]"If faith is acquired through non-rational ways, it can’t be removed easily through rationality. Someone has said it well: “What never went in through intellect cannot be brought out through it.” Those who have an emotionally acquired faith react emotionally to rational questions raised against it.

Therefore, the only valid faith is the one that reaches the heart through the mind."
[/h]If the Shias do not observe these rituals as practised in Pakistan and India (Tazias thrown into sea or rivers), it will die out because most of theses rituals are copied from Hindu culture and their religious customs. These rituals were introduced in India about three hundreds years when for the first in Luckhnow by a Shia priest.

In the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, Catholics view the Orange Order as a political wing of United Kingdom that hinders their struggle for independence from the English occupation of their country.
 

arshypk

Councller (250+ posts)
With due respect to my Shia brothers but I am really against all this matum and pricession Quran and Hadith clearly forbid us from any such activities. If you are really persistent you can do it inside a confined space or indoors. Main, meray maan baap aur meri aulad sub Nabi Pak pbuh aur un ki aal per qurban, mugar peetna haram hay.

I respect your opinion so please do it indoors and keep it to yourself. Poor people die because of this. This is all drama and show off. Please stop these sunee moulvies and Shia Zakirs from their most profitable business of spreading hatred. Islam zinda bad firqa wariat murda bad.
 

Saladin A

Minister (2k+ posts)
[h=6]Sayyidna Hussain (RA), shortly before his demise, advised his beloved sister Sayyidah Zainab (RA),"My dear sister! I swear upon you that in case I die you shall not tear your clothes, nor scratch your face, nor curse anyone for me or pray for your death." (Al-Kamil, ibn al-Athir vol. 4 pg. 24)[/h]
In Islam, mourning over a death for more than three day is not permitted. So many of the customs and rituals observed amongst in Muslims of India and Pakistan are copied from Hinduism and shirk.

Particularly, so many of the marriage customs, traditions and rituals are observed by Hindus as their religious obligations but we Muslims are so influenced by them.
 

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