Head, I win; Tail, you lose!!!

[desan]

Politicians like Bhuttos and sharif's, as well as their followers, who owe their political existence to generals, are in the best position to make that statement. I don't believe IK was propped by the army and I'm not gonna sit here and blame army for all negatives and praise ik for positives.

If IK can't tackle resistance from the establishment, he himself would be to blame.

So far, I have seen no reason to suggest army is pulling any strings. Yes, pmln and ppp will use that as an argument because as mentioned above, their parties spawned from ghq

So far, I have seen no reason to suggest army is pulling any strings. Yes, pmln and ppp will use that as an argument because as mentioned above, their parties spawned from ghq

It will be quite naive to think it that way...
IK is a rebel, but at the same time he is quite pragmatic as well.

So far he has tried to tightened the noose around the corrupt politicians, but has given a free reign to the corrupt generals at the same time.

The way NS was let out of this country is a testament to the power of the power brokers.

 

[Awan S]

یہ بھی عجب اتفاق ہے کہ پاکستان میں کسی کا کاروبار نہیں چل سکا سوائے ان کے
? ? ?
اور یہ بھی عجب منطق ہے کہ حکمرانی یہیں کرنی اور داؤ بھی یہاں لگانا ہے ​

پاکستان میں ہزاروں بڑے صنحت کار ہیں کراچی میں ایک سے ایک بڑا ارب پتی سیٹھ ہے جس نے مٹی میں ہاتھ ڈالا تو وہ سونا ہو گئی - بایئس ارب کی آبادی ہے بھیا مٹی بھی بک جاتی ہے یہاں - بس فرق یہ ہے وہ کبھی میں سیاست میں نہیں رہے باقی ٹیکس بچانا اور اپنے کاروباری مقاصد کا تحفظ کرنا انہیں خوب آتا ہے - شریف خاندان اپنے والد کی وجہ سے یہاں تک پوھنچا جو خالصتا کاروباری آدمی تھے - آپ بھی محنت اور لگن سے کوئی کاروبار کیجئے الله پھل دے گا -

 

[There is only 1]

پاکستان میں ہزاروں بڑے صنحت کار ہیں کراچی میں ایک سے ایک بڑا ارب پتی سیٹھ ہے جس نے مٹی میں ہاتھ ڈالا تو وہ سونا ہو گئی - بایئس ارب کی آبادی ہے بھیا مٹی بھی بک جاتی ہے یہاں - بس فرق یہ ہے وہ کبھی میں سیاست میں نہیں رہے باقی ٹیکس بچانا اور اپنے کاروباری مقاصد کا تحفظ کرنا انہیں خوب آتا ہے - شریف خاندان اپنے والد کی وجہ سے یہاں تک پوھنچا جو خالصتا کاروباری آدمی تھے - آپ بھی محنت اور لگن سے کوئی کاروبار کیجئے الله پھل دے گا -

ہاں جی بلکل ایسا ہی ہے
ریلوے پی آئی اے سٹیل مل وغیرہ نقصان میں چلتے ہیں لیکن آل شریف کا کاروبار اوپر ہی اوپر جاتا ہے اور حسن اتفاق یہ کہ ان کے کاروبار کا کوئی کاغذ پتر بھی موجود نہیں
? ?
​

 

[Will_Bite]

It will be quite naive to think it that way...
IK is a rebel, but at the same time he is quite pragmatic as well.

So far he has tried to tightened the noose around the corrupt politicians, but has given a free reign to the corrupt generals at the same time.

The way NS was let out of this country is a testament to the power of the power brokers.

NS was let go because of 'societal and media pressure'. The sob story created around his platelet count was clearly a farce, but was too delicate an issue to play politics on. If the generals are so called involved in his departure, how come they havent been able to let Maryam slip out the same way?

Its about time we stopped hiding behind 'establishment' card every time there is a hiccup.

 

[desan]

NS was let go because of 'societal and media pressure'. The sob story created around his platelet count was clearly a farce, but was too delicate an issue to play politics on. If the generals are so called involved in his departure, how come they havent been able to let Maryam slip out the same way?

Its about time we stopped hiding behind 'establishment' card every time there is a hiccup.

how come they havent been able to let Maryam slip out the same way?

Exactly the point...

SS who is considered close to the boots, haven't been convicted despite so much public evidence against him.

On the other hand, they are quite afraid of Maryam as she is a loose canon with so many "secret tapes"!!!

BTW: What compulsion did the opposition have to vote in favor of COAS's extension???

 

[Reason]

Politicians like Bhuttos and sharif's, as well as their followers, who owe their political existence to generals, are in the best position to make that statement. I don't believe IK was propped by the army and I'm not gonna sit here and blame army for all negatives and praise ik for positives.

If IK can't tackle resistance from the establishment, he himself would be to blame.

So far, I have seen no reason to suggest army is pulling any strings. Yes, pmln and ppp will use that as an argument because as mentioned above, their parties spawned from ghq

Half of all the ministers in IK's cabinet are from Musharraf era, some of them are not even elected. Most of them are also turncoats from other parties. Yes, Bhuttos and Sharifs exist because of GHQ, which means what? You want to compete with them in boot licking?

 

[Will_Bite]

Exactly the point...

SS who is considered close to the boots, haven't been convicted despite so much public evidence against him.

On the other hand, they are quite afraid of Maryam as she is a loose canon with so many "secret tapes"!!!

BTW: What compulsion did the opposition have to vote in favor of COAS's extension???

Lack of convictions is across the board and that is because of shoddy prosecutor, not boots.
Maryam has nothing. And if she has so called tapes, not much is going to help. The judge video already backfired.
COAS extension was approved because it had valid grounds. Opposition didn't have an argument against it. This is despite the fact that there was significant opposition within the army against it.

We need to evolve and come out of this patwari syndrome which causes us to blame the army for everything wrong. Time to take responsibility for what is happening under us

 

[Will_Bite]

Half of all the ministers in IK's cabinet are from Musharraf era, some of them are not even elected. Most of them are also turncoats from other parties. Yes, Bhuttos and Sharifs exist because of GHQ, which means what? You want to compete with them in boot licking?

They had to come from somewhere. Pti was not gonnaa manufacture new politicians in a factory.

And I'm doing the opposite of licking.y argument is that PTI is responsible for all good and bad during it's tenure. They can't take credit for good and pass the buck to the army for bad. Noome is a feeder sucking toddler here.

 

[desan]

Lack of convictions is across the board and that is because of shoddy prosecutor, not boots.
Maryam has nothing. And if she has so called tapes, not much is going to help. The judge video already backfired.
COAS extension was approved because it had valid grounds. Opposition didn't have an argument against it. This is despite the fact that there was significant opposition within the army against it.

We need to evolve and come out of this patwari syndrome which causes us to blame the army for everything wrong. Time to take responsibility for what is happening under us

Cannot argue if like a Jiyala someone is insistent that Bhutto is still alive...

 

[Will_Bite]

Cannot argue if like a Jiyala someone is insistent that Bhutto is still alive...

If you are insistent that govt is being shadow run by the army, doesn't that put you in the above category, since you are still rooting for IK?

From my perspective, if I believed IK has no hold over vital aspects of his governance, I'm not going to hide behind terms like 'pragmatic'. My point is, it's time to get real. Disagreement doesn't make one a jiyala or patwari

 

[desan]

If you are insistent that govt is being shadow run by the army, doesn't that put you in the above category, since you are still rooting for IK?

From my perspective, if I believed IK has no hold over vital aspects of his governance, I'm not going to hide behind terms like 'pragmatic'. My point is, it's time to get real. Disagreement doesn't make one a jiyala or patwari

It's not either, or proposition. It's a matter of degree.
IK is much more independent than the previous lot.

His hands were intentionally tied by manipulating the electoral politics so that he has a razor thin majority with a lot of establishment backed coalition partners, who can blackmail him at their whims.

GHQ has been in politics either directly or indirectly for decades, if not from the inception of this country.

To deny their role in politics is tantamount to putting one's head in the sand.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

It's not either, or proposition. It's a matter of degree.
IK is much more independent than the previous lot.

His hands were intentionally tied by manipulating the electoral politics so that he has a razor thin majority with a lot of establishment backed coalition partners, who can blackmail him at their whims.

GHQ has been in politics either directly or indirectly for decades, if not from the inception of this country.

To deny their role in politics is tantamount to putting one's head in the sand.

Yes, the Army had been involved in the politics of Pakistan. However, this has its logic in its own perspectives.

1- Pakistan's existence has always been threatened by a threefold larger neighbor in the East. We saw its designs right after the inception in 1948 and till the time, it has not waned.

2- Pakistan Army, as being one disciplined organization in itself as compared to other Government institutions, has risen itself to the ranks where they are depended upon for many things.... from simple rescue operations to leading the polio drive to defending the borders and helping WAPDA in uprooting power thefts etc. On the other hand, the other institutions of Pakistan had been deliberately looted by these civilian governments who lay a claim at supremacy of power in the country.

So, the sort of natural selection prevailed here.

However, this does not mean that our Army is not corrupt or has done everything in the favor of the country. I mean, lets see what they did with Fatima Jinnah and see Ayub Khan promoting himself to the rank of Field Marshall. See the statements of Gen Yahya and hear stories of Gen Rani.

The point is, that practically, no absolute can be achieved. Army is inevitable in the game of thrones in Pakistan. Like a boxer has stronger fists than legs and a footballer has stronger legs than his fists. Likewise, in a country like Pakistan, Army is stronger due to the challenges the country faces.

Yet, it does not mean that Army should go scott free. They should be held responsible for every misadventure they do with the misuse of their power. They should be held equally accountable as any other in Pakistan. But yet again, how much are the others accountable here?

To my knowledge came a conspiracy theory that there is a new design in making. They want to change the governing structure in Pakistan from Parliamentary to somewhat a Presidential type, where some institutions like Army, Judiciary and Establishment will also have an institutional power of voting for a president and will also have powers to send him home. I am not sure if that will be the answer to our problems. Yet, I do believe that if you want to get rid of the backdoor politics played by Army, then you really need to define their Authority as on actual on the grounds (not by the absolutes of a theory) and once you define the Authority and Responsibilities of the Army, then you MUST devise a framework of their Accountability as well.