Front Line
Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
Topic: Islam vs Secularism
Front line 13th November 2010 - Orya Maqbool Jaan, Rubeena Sehgal, Sajjad Mir and Others (Good Progr
- Thread starter Front Line
- Start date
zubair.maalick
MPA (400+ posts)
Interesting and Important topic .. but poorly managed .... Seems a kind of Random discussion ....
Abdul Allah
Minister (2k+ posts)
Some one says in the discussion that state concept comes after Islam in 18 century
Well we should look at the Madina as first state isnt it?
What rules Islam provides to run that? arent that enough for us?
Well we should look at the Madina as first state isnt it?
What rules Islam provides to run that? arent that enough for us?
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@tiger54: That is where you are wrong. That is where you are going outside boundary of Islam -> Islam and secularism are in conflict with each other. They are at odds with each other. Islam and secularism 'negate' each other. Its 'either' Islam or secularism, not 'or'. You cannot have or believe in both at one time. You have to choose one among them. Its either Islam or secularism.
If you are a Muslim and if you believe in, or support secularism, that means you are;
(1) 'choosing' to abandon Islam, to disbelieve in Islam
(2) 'choosing' to go beyond Islam's boundaries
(3) 'making' the 'decision', 'taking' the 'actions' to disobey Islam
(4) 'making' the 'decision', 'taking' the 'actions' to commit treason with ALLAH ALMIGHTY, with Islam, and as a result with ALL Muslims
There is no separation of state and Islam in Islam.
I believe you have a 'very' 'flawed' 'knowledge', 'understanding' of Islam. You need to learn Islam, to understand it before attributing that with Islam which is wrong, which is false, which is not true.
@tiger54: That is where you are wrong. That is where you are going outside boundary of Islam -> Islam and secularism are in conflict with each other. They are at odds with each other. Islam and secularism 'negate' each other. Its 'either' Islam or secularism, not 'or'. You cannot have or believe in both at one time. You have to choose one among them. Its either Islam or secularism.
If you are a Muslim and if you believe in, or support secularism, that means you are;
(1) 'choosing' to abandon Islam, to disbelieve in Islam
(2) 'choosing' to go beyond Islam's boundaries
(3) 'making' the 'decision', 'taking' the 'actions' to disobey Islam
(4) 'making' the 'decision', 'taking' the 'actions' to commit treason with ALLAH ALMIGHTY, with Islam, and as a result with ALL Muslims
There is no separation of state and Islam in Islam.
I believe you have a 'very' 'flawed' 'knowledge', 'understanding' of Islam. You need to learn Islam, to understand it before attributing that with Islam which is wrong, which is false, which is not true.
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tiger54
MPA (400+ posts)
thats just my opinion! name me just one country out of the top ten most powerful countries in the world where religion is the responsibility of the state?
the answer is NONE!
i am not preaching anything unislamic i am just saying it should not be the duty of state to impose religious values! religion is between a person and God and so it should not be imposed by any state!
also doing that alienates all other religions and religious sectors that represent a country!
thank you!
the answer is NONE!
i am not preaching anything unislamic i am just saying it should not be the duty of state to impose religious values! religion is between a person and God and so it should not be imposed by any state!
also doing that alienates all other religions and religious sectors that represent a country!
thank you!
tiger54
MPA (400+ posts)
and one more thing DONT TELL ME what i am chosing to do or if i am any less of a Muslim if i believe in a secular state!
people like you who pass fatwas like gossip have given bad name to Islam!
i love my Allah and Islam more than anyone so dont be a freaking molvi!
people like you who pass fatwas like gossip have given bad name to Islam!
i love my Allah and Islam more than anyone so dont be a freaking molvi!
Abdul Allah
Minister (2k+ posts)
Tiger please tell me
what do you think what a secular state is?
please answer
A state that did not follow a religion? Yes or No
and after answering this to us. under the light of your answer for the above question kindly check what Islam said about it. and decide yourself. and share here
what do you think what a secular state is?
please answer
A state that did not follow a religion? Yes or No
and after answering this to us. under the light of your answer for the above question kindly check what Islam said about it. and decide yourself. and share here
GuruJi
Citizen
Tiger I agree with you no country can become a prosperous and strong under a theocracy, dictator ship or any other system other than secularism. There is nothing that prevents a Muslim to live his life according to his religion under this system. But that is not a possibility in the foreseeable future in Pakistan as vast majority of Pakistanis reject secularism. The Gentleman name Shami said correctly that Pakistan will never be a secular country. He states if Pakistan was to become secular then what was the point of partition?. At this time its a country is in the middle of crossroads because its neither Islamic, secular, dictatorship nor theocratic, it just refuses to follow any road or make its own.
tiger54
MPA (400+ posts)
i agree with you but the thing that "pakistan cant be a secular state" is a different thing. my point was not what it can be or cannot be i was just saying that state and religion should be two different entities!
the other islamic model that v can follow is that of Iran but that wont be fissible for pakistan since no two religious sectors of pakistan would agree on one rule!
the other islamic model that v can follow is that of Iran but that wont be fissible for pakistan since no two religious sectors of pakistan would agree on one rule!
Tiger, either you are yourself confused or you are just pretending to blindly support something of which you dont know much yourself.
First you said no to secularism and in your last post you said Irani model was "OK"
LOL
Dude im supposing you are from fiqh-e-Jafria , just correct me if im wrong but Irani system is no way secular and still it has your sympathies? Amazing
I am personally okay with Irani system which is based on Imamat and i respect it as its majorly shia population there and they have a right to have rules as per their school of thought...
Having said that, why cant the Sunni majority of this region have their calphate and islamic economic/political and social system put in place.
Now dont give me the regular crap " which islam(fiqh) are you going to implement" because if you ever had any interest in learning about this sytem you might have known that there is a personal law in place for each fiqh under the supreme shari law which is represented by all major sects.
Same is for the minorities, Christians can have the British law for themselves and hindus can have their own. There is no compulsion as Pakistan doesnt have a huge non-muslim population.
Secondly dude your research is zero.
Top 10 powerful countries are secular? u kiddin me?
Israel is secular? Its parliament passes Judaism laws and practices theocracy with no fear.
India might call itself secular but the truth is its just psedo-secular mulsim in UP practice limited sharia law withtin their own community.
And how can i forget USA...have you ever heard of Blues law? lol... YOU CANT DRINK ON SUNDAYS... a law in many states, other states have prohibitions for gay marriages.
So India/USA are not 100% secular democracies.
And do you know how many European countries consider their state religion as Christianity?
Had you even followed this program well you didnt notice the point was made by Sajjad Mir which was like when you try to distribute the 'control of power' between all religious factions you are actually discriminating the majority,in our case its the muslims.
Lastly before you bring the usual 11th August speech crap(which has many easy rebuttals), ill actually give you a bigger nut to crack.
You have studied Khilfat movement in your Pakistan Studies. Do you know the leaders it produced and its role in the creation of Pakistan?
The Green flag of pakistan was adopted from the green flag in the ottoman coat of arms.That green flag was called the flag of calphate by the ottomans since centuries.
Jinnah himself evolved over time. He was born as an Ismaili , converted to shiaism in his middle ages and was seen as sunni before his death. His ideas for the new state were for Islamic laws as seen in many speeches which are altogether ignored and his viewpoint in his end days.
First you said no to secularism and in your last post you said Irani model was "OK"
LOL
Dude im supposing you are from fiqh-e-Jafria , just correct me if im wrong but Irani system is no way secular and still it has your sympathies? Amazing
I am personally okay with Irani system which is based on Imamat and i respect it as its majorly shia population there and they have a right to have rules as per their school of thought...
Having said that, why cant the Sunni majority of this region have their calphate and islamic economic/political and social system put in place.
Now dont give me the regular crap " which islam(fiqh) are you going to implement" because if you ever had any interest in learning about this sytem you might have known that there is a personal law in place for each fiqh under the supreme shari law which is represented by all major sects.
Same is for the minorities, Christians can have the British law for themselves and hindus can have their own. There is no compulsion as Pakistan doesnt have a huge non-muslim population.
Secondly dude your research is zero.
Top 10 powerful countries are secular? u kiddin me?
Israel is secular? Its parliament passes Judaism laws and practices theocracy with no fear.
India might call itself secular but the truth is its just psedo-secular mulsim in UP practice limited sharia law withtin their own community.
And how can i forget USA...have you ever heard of Blues law? lol... YOU CANT DRINK ON SUNDAYS... a law in many states, other states have prohibitions for gay marriages.
So India/USA are not 100% secular democracies.
And do you know how many European countries consider their state religion as Christianity?
Had you even followed this program well you didnt notice the point was made by Sajjad Mir which was like when you try to distribute the 'control of power' between all religious factions you are actually discriminating the majority,in our case its the muslims.
Lastly before you bring the usual 11th August speech crap(which has many easy rebuttals), ill actually give you a bigger nut to crack.
You have studied Khilfat movement in your Pakistan Studies. Do you know the leaders it produced and its role in the creation of Pakistan?
The Green flag of pakistan was adopted from the green flag in the ottoman coat of arms.That green flag was called the flag of calphate by the ottomans since centuries.
Jinnah himself evolved over time. He was born as an Ismaili , converted to shiaism in his middle ages and was seen as sunni before his death. His ideas for the new state were for Islamic laws as seen in many speeches which are altogether ignored and his viewpoint in his end days.
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Abdul Allah
Minister (2k+ posts)
tiger please answer my questions
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@tiger54:
(1) ALLAH ALMIGHTY has used he word 'DEEN' for Islam in the Quran
(2) The word 'religion' is 'alien' to Islam
(3) 'DEEN' = a complete way of life. A complete package
(4) 'DEEN' covers ALL! aspects of a human being's life
(5) Do you think a complete package would only include a human being's 'personal' life, and won't have guidance regarding his/her collective life, public life ?
(6) There are many aspects, ways, standards, guidelines of Islam that cannot be practiced in personal life, that are practiced at the collective level, at the state level. For example political, financial, social, judicial realms of a human being's life that Islam provides standards, ways, guidelines, principles, rules, laws for. How do you expect Muslims to practice that part of Islam ?
Do you want Muslims to accept one part of Islam and reject the other ? That's not what the word 'commitment' means. That is not what a 'Muslim' is. That is sheer hypocrisy. When one accepts DEEN-e-Islam, one has to enter it completely, not halfheartedly.
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From what I'm getting from you, as reply, I can surmise the fact that your knowledge, plus understanding of Islam, of what your talking about is far below par. You have little or no knowledge of Islam. You have little or no knowledge of secularism. You don't know what you'r talking about.
I'm encouraging you to 'explore', to 'learn', to 'improve', to 'understand' that which you are talking about.
Do you want to improve, to learn, to understand or continue to make the same mistake(s) over and over again ?
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I'm open for a healthy discussion when you are.
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..and yes, there is no connection between Pakistan and secularism. I'll prove it to you.
@tiger54:
(1) ALLAH ALMIGHTY has used he word 'DEEN' for Islam in the Quran
(2) The word 'religion' is 'alien' to Islam
(3) 'DEEN' = a complete way of life. A complete package
(4) 'DEEN' covers ALL! aspects of a human being's life
(5) Do you think a complete package would only include a human being's 'personal' life, and won't have guidance regarding his/her collective life, public life ?
(6) There are many aspects, ways, standards, guidelines of Islam that cannot be practiced in personal life, that are practiced at the collective level, at the state level. For example political, financial, social, judicial realms of a human being's life that Islam provides standards, ways, guidelines, principles, rules, laws for. How do you expect Muslims to practice that part of Islam ?
Do you want Muslims to accept one part of Islam and reject the other ? That's not what the word 'commitment' means. That is not what a 'Muslim' is. That is sheer hypocrisy. When one accepts DEEN-e-Islam, one has to enter it completely, not halfheartedly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From what I'm getting from you, as reply, I can surmise the fact that your knowledge, plus understanding of Islam, of what your talking about is far below par. You have little or no knowledge of Islam. You have little or no knowledge of secularism. You don't know what you'r talking about.
I'm encouraging you to 'explore', to 'learn', to 'improve', to 'understand' that which you are talking about.
Do you want to improve, to learn, to understand or continue to make the same mistake(s) over and over again ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm open for a healthy discussion when you are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
..and yes, there is no connection between Pakistan and secularism. I'll prove it to you.
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Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@tiger54: (1) Checkout the word ALLAH ALMIGHTY has repeatedly used for Islam in the Quran. Checkout Quran, Surah Maida, Ayah #3;
ALLAH ALMIGHTY has used the word 'DEEN' for Islam.
(2) Checkout Quran, Surah Al-e-Imran, Ayah #19;
ALLAH ALMIGHTY has used the word 'DEEN' for Islam.
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Explore the rest of the Quran, the words used for Islam by Quran, for yourself. ALLAH ALMIGHTY has always used the word 'DEEN'. There is no mention of the word 'religion' in the Quran.
Why then do you note Islam as a 'religion', and that too, a personal one, when ALLAH ALMIGHTY does not ?
@tiger54: (1) Checkout the word ALLAH ALMIGHTY has repeatedly used for Islam in the Quran. Checkout Quran, Surah Maida, Ayah #3;
ALLAH ALMIGHTY has used the word 'DEEN' for Islam.
(2) Checkout Quran, Surah Al-e-Imran, Ayah #19;
ALLAH ALMIGHTY has used the word 'DEEN' for Islam.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Explore the rest of the Quran, the words used for Islam by Quran, for yourself. ALLAH ALMIGHTY has always used the word 'DEEN'. There is no mention of the word 'religion' in the Quran.
Why then do you note Islam as a 'religion', and that too, a personal one, when ALLAH ALMIGHTY does not ?
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Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@tiger54: For example, the best financial system that human beings have been able to come up with is 'capitalism' or the so-called 'free market' 'capitalism'. Capitalism failed 40 years ago. The so-called 'free market' 'capitalism' also failed years ago.
Yet, Islam provides a financial system which improves on the best that humanity has to offer, and makes it such, that it never! fails, not even once in 8 centuries (i.e., 800 years of medieval era).
What do you want ? A financial system that crashes every 20 or so years or the one that works flawlessly for 800 years without even a single crash ? If you want to live by the best possible/available financial system, Islam is the way of life for you.
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Same is the case in political, social, judicial standards, that human beings want in life. Islam provides the best possible standards.
@tiger54: For example, the best financial system that human beings have been able to come up with is 'capitalism' or the so-called 'free market' 'capitalism'. Capitalism failed 40 years ago. The so-called 'free market' 'capitalism' also failed years ago.
Yet, Islam provides a financial system which improves on the best that humanity has to offer, and makes it such, that it never! fails, not even once in 8 centuries (i.e., 800 years of medieval era).
What do you want ? A financial system that crashes every 20 or so years or the one that works flawlessly for 800 years without even a single crash ? If you want to live by the best possible/available financial system, Islam is the way of life for you.
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Same is the case in political, social, judicial standards, that human beings want in life. Islam provides the best possible standards.
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tiger54
MPA (400+ posts)
bro u definitely dont know ted sh** abt other countries! i live in US and i can say it with 200% surety that no county, city or state has any religious rule that prohibits u to drink on sunday (bcoz of church or whatever reason) so ur knowledge abt other countries atleast abt US seems to be O or maybe a negative value!
secondly i mentioned Iran islamic model in reply to a post by a guriji who said that secularism is good but wont work with paistan..then only i tried to bring up the example of an islamic country Iran which is strictly based on Islamic ideas (on the most part) to show that even such an Islamic model wont work in pakistan bcoz there is so much tension between each religious sector in our country!
get my point? now plz dont pass fatwas like hotdogs on foodball game and have the b**ls to take others opinions and arguments!
god bless!
secondly i mentioned Iran islamic model in reply to a post by a guriji who said that secularism is good but wont work with paistan..then only i tried to bring up the example of an islamic country Iran which is strictly based on Islamic ideas (on the most part) to show that even such an Islamic model wont work in pakistan bcoz there is so much tension between each religious sector in our country!
get my point? now plz dont pass fatwas like hotdogs on foodball game and have the b**ls to take others opinions and arguments!
god bless!
tiger54
MPA (400+ posts)
oh bhai mere secular state has nothings against Islam or any other religion!i love islam and my Allah but i dont want a country to become a religious police or something! i am for secular state not secularism/atheism for religion for god's sake why do you people get on the edge so quickly??
all i am trying to say is that secular state , a state which is neutral to all religions and treats all citizens of its country equally regardless of their religions background and does not interfere with the religions beliefs of anyone, is the best model of state! examples are US, UK, France, Japan, Russia, Australia, Germany, China, Canada etc etc
god the more i get to know how less my people are ready to listen to others' views and how intolerant they are makes me really sad for paistan's future!
no wonder taliban whips girls and boys in public under the false umbrella of religion!
god bless pakistan but i am getting less and less optimistic about its future!
all i am trying to say is that secular state , a state which is neutral to all religions and treats all citizens of its country equally regardless of their religions background and does not interfere with the religions beliefs of anyone, is the best model of state! examples are US, UK, France, Japan, Russia, Australia, Germany, China, Canada etc etc
god the more i get to know how less my people are ready to listen to others' views and how intolerant they are makes me really sad for paistan's future!
no wonder taliban whips girls and boys in public under the false umbrella of religion!
god bless pakistan but i am getting less and less optimistic about its future!
Abdul Allah
Minister (2k+ posts)
Tiger
I feel you need to explain your point more clearly.
what ever you said so far give an impression that you want to say that
a state should not be run on the basis of religion. (offcourse being Muslim we are talking about Islam).
Is that what you want to say? answer it in a more clear and direct way . means starting by saying YES or NO and then explain your point.
please answer
I feel you need to explain your point more clearly.
what ever you said so far give an impression that you want to say that
a state should not be run on the basis of religion. (offcourse being Muslim we are talking about Islam).
Is that what you want to say? answer it in a more clear and direct way . means starting by saying YES or NO and then explain your point.
please answer
