FEUDALISM and MQM- Different or Similar?

[butshikan]

The reason I titled it with mqm was because they claim to be for and from the common people and that their leader is the most democratic and non feudal. If you study his behavior and acts you will see that he has modelled himself after all that he says he stands against. He preferred to run away when he had a chance and left his party to struggle and now he wants to take the credit for it,plus he thrives like a royal on the 'donations' which are collected from even the lowest earning member of his party,what kind of examle is he setting for the future leadership of his party? that the leader is not supposed to earn a living he has never earned a days worth of livelihood in Pakistan.

I am afraid that even being an MQM supporter I can neither reject nor able to defend most of your observations above but can only say to check his life prior to leave Pakistan (not to justify anything) just to have a balance picture. After all there should have been some good qualities or thinking in the begining by AH and his followers due to which you can list him among the one who create some thing out of no where in the short history of Pakistan :|
As far as AH to come back: will it make any difference at all or you want an addition in the list:
Murtaza Bhutto
Akber Bugti
B. Bhutto

I am not harsh I am just being honest about mqm. Look at the language they use
"Haters" is what they call us, wheras I keep repeating that no one hates them but they seem to have been educated in a certain manner so that they can keep harping on the same tune for the rest of their lives, no change in their attitude. Mustafa Kamal was sending LANAT on everybody, what was that? just a reflection of his training what else.
These are dangerous trends in a political party.

I think you must be well aware of what they normally call us "Bhayia", "Mahajir" (Even now, as no one from us claim to be one and it is now officially "Muthahida Qaumi" instead of "Mahajir Qaumi") and worse of all "Indian or Traitor" :x .This will not help in any manner. If PML(N) and PPP personels visit Israel to get support in America from lobbies than no one call them traitor (don't no why :?: )
If you ARE honest than you can forgive MK as he publically admit his mistake in a live show and not to mention that this was the only harsh comment (for every one) from him and at a time when the whole city was burning and he was in feild making atleast some real efforts to control that.

 

[waleed1214]

The reason I titled it with mqm was because they claim to be for and from the common people and that their leader is the most democratic and non feudal. If you study his behavior and acts you will see that he has modelled himself after all that he says he stands against. He preferred to run away when he had a chance and left his party to struggle and now he wants to take the credit for it,plus he thrives like a royal on the 'donations' which are collected from even the lowest earning member of his party,what kind of examle is he setting for the future leadership of his party? that the leader is not supposed to earn a living he has never earned a days worth of livelihood in Pakistan.

I am afraid that even being an MQM supporter I can neither reject nor able to defend most of your observations above but can only say to check his life prior to leave Pakistan (not to justify anything) just to have a balance picture. After all there should have been some good qualities or thinking in the begining by AH and his followers due to which you can list him among the one who create some thing out of no where in the short history of Pakistan :|
As far as AH to come back: will it make any difference at all or you want an addition in the list:
Murtaza Bhutto
Akber Bugti
B. Bhutto

I am not harsh I am just being honest about mqm. Look at the language they use
"Haters" is what they call us, wheras I keep repeating that no one hates them but they seem to have been educated in a certain manner so that they can keep harping on the same tune for the rest of their lives, no change in their attitude. Mustafa Kamal was sending LANAT on everybody, what was that? just a reflection of his training what else.
These are dangerous trends in a political party.

I think you must be well aware of what they normally call us "Bhayia", "Mahajir" (Even now, as no one from us claim to be one and it is now officially "Muthahida Qaumi" instead of "Mahajir Qaumi") and worse of all "Indian or Traitor" :x .This will not help in any manner. If PML(N) and PPP personels visit Israel to get support in America from lobbies than no one call them traitor (don't no why :?: )
If you ARE honest than you can forgive MK as he publically admit his mistake in a live show and not to mention that this was the only harsh comment (for every one) from him and at a time when the whole city was burning and he was in feild making atleast some real efforts to control that.

Just wanted to clear one thing here that,if AH comes to PAKISTAN his legacy would be strengthend,As once the great TIPU SULTA SAID''GEEDAR KI 100 SALA ZINDIGI SAY BEHTAR HAI SHAIR KI 1 DIN KI ZINDIGI GUZAARI JAEE",i never supported BENAZIR but i salute her for her bravery,if he dies in lndon with his british passport no one would remember him,after one year he would become like BACHA KHAN but LEADERS live for a bigger cause,they live and die for a nation,A leader has to be LION,LONDON MEN BAITH KER TU MUSHARAF BHEE BATEIN KERTA HAI,so that's why MQM SUPPORTER'S like MUSH [funnny] [funnny]

 

[Star Gazer]

@waleed1214
I agree with you. AH should come back to Pakistan and struggle with his party and people. I too never really liked BB but do admire her courage and she will be rememberd for a long time. As for the statistics given by one mqm supporter well, How and why should I support or believe or have sympathy for a leader who thinks his life is more important than that of his workers or his countrymen?? In the present situation he is totally unreliable and any body who takes this path would be. If his party is not able to justify his staying away other than his life is in dander then what do you have to say to all those who have laid down their lives for the cause of Pakistan/ how will you face those who choose to stay here and defend their country,those polcemen who work without adequate equipment to defuse bombs and those who try to catch criminals or terrorist and give the gift of their lives?
A person who runs away like a scared rabbit is no leader of anything.

 

[waleed1214]

@sobia403 totally agree with you,BUT these MQM supporters don't get the point,i mean they are so stubborn,and what about ZA BHUTTO,he could have been like NAWAZ SHAREEF,he was given the option but he died to set an example.
Altaf hussian is not governing MUHAJIR party,he has totally forgot i guess that,a party is for a whole nation,or either MQM declares it self a NATIONAL party,i like mustafa kamal but that's it.
My freind recently came from karachi and he was telling me that kay yaar ab koi ALTAF BHAI ka naam naee LAITA,and all say MUSTAFA KAMAL kee kya bat hai and he also said kay ALTAF BHAI SOCH RAHAY KAY Mustafa kamal ko bhee MURWA dain.

So my MQM freinds apart from our PTI and MQM fight AND criticising each other,if you want an advice the best one is bring AH back,and lead this nation,if you people think he is capable!!
BEST OF LUCK!! [clap]

 

[Star Gazer]

Agreed. I want to forget AH and all that is associated with him. If some other person becomes thea leader of mqm well ,then I will most certainly take a second look at the matter and might even support them if I believe that they are doing good work.As long as AH is the leader then there can not be a lot of change in the cause and way of thinking. If AH is too important then I guess we will have to wait and see,but this I assure that whenever I feel that some kind of rubbish is being thrown at us and they are trying to bedazzle us with BS I will exercize my right to raise my voice and concern with as much force as God has bestowed me with.

 

[butshikan]

Ok Waleed n Sobia,

As I have already mentioned that I know it is not the right option to leave Pakistan but ...............What do you think that he (AH) will be able to do for Pakistan which he is currently unable to do ....... [hmmm] ,

Please support ur comnts with logic so that I can review my thinking ......... [okkk]

Waleed u r ri8 about every one saying MK ki kiya baat hai but do you think AH is feeling any insecurity from him :shock: (If he is as per ur coments ...he might not have appoint him in the 1st place or can take his resignation any time on various false alligation against MK) ...what do you think??? or may be he is looking MK as his potential replacement (and you cannot say that AH will prefere his daughter as you all aware that none of his relation ever come in politics ;) )

 

[waleed1214]

Ok Waleed n Sobia,

As I have already mentioned that I know it is not the right option to leave Pakistan but ...............What do you think that he (AH) will be able to do for Pakistan which he is currently unable to do ...... ,

Please support ur comnts with logic so that I can review my thinking ........

Waleed u r ri8 about every one saying MK ki kiya baat hai but do you think AH is feeling any insecurity from him :shock: (If he is as per ur coments ...he might not have appoint him in the 1st place or can take his resignation any time on various false alligation against MK) ...what do you think??? or may be he is looking MK as his potential replacement (and you cannot say that AH will prefere his daughter as you all aware that none of his relation ever come in politics ;) )

Ahan you post a question what change he would bring if he come's back,umm i would post it in terms of points,
1)MQM is certainly not thinking NATIONALLY,he possess a BRITISH PASSPORT and he is governing LARGEST CITY of PAKISTAN,when he would come back,he could take an office hold,populate his party apart from being just a REGIONAL PARTY.
2)He upholds critiscm from his critics,he peronally could answer that,living in LONDON and talking about POVERTY doesn't suit true LEADERS.
3)Just Nominating a Nazim for Karachi isn't a MIRACLE from his side,he personally needs some accomplishments and if he come's back ,he has to prove to the nation,APART FROM KARACHI HEIGHTS.
3)NS is the best example,what role he has in politics still,people vote for him,i personally is not a voter of him,BUT he knows how the business of politics MANUVERS,AH needs accomplishment's people ask what AH has done except hiding in LONDON,he could take vote bank he even bigger then his party is taking at the moment,Could possibly bring a fresh air of change,PEOPLE ARE READY FOR NEW FACES.

APNAY GHAR MEIN TU CHOHA BHEE SHAIR HOTA HAI,that's what AH seem's like being 1000 mile's away from the pool of POLITICS and claiming to be the BIGGEST AND BEST THING HAPPENED TO THE PEOPLE is an obnoxious statement.

COME HERE AND LEAD PEOPLE THAT'S THE BIGGEST CHANGE HE COULD BRING,if they would see honesty in him,they would follow him.

And about MK nd AH conspiracy,IT'S ABOUT ego clash,if me or any other TOM DICK AND HARRY WOULD EVEN make a party,we would have a problem if some one becomes larger then life US

FOR EXAMPLE if the shoe becomes more popular then the show maker,shoe maker would alway's have a TINGE in his heart and could even stop making the shoe,if no one would even TAKE the name of the shoe maker.

AND about not giving party leader ship to his daughter,my dear after AH,MQM won't EXIST,if it doesn't stay's in the FAMILY,kyun kay VOTE AH ko parta hai us kay kamo ko naee,PERHAPS I CAN BE WRONG,BUT MAJORITY OF PEOPLE OF PAKISTAN SHARE THIS MENTALITY!! :| [hmmm] :)

 

[butshikan]

Ahan you post a question what change he would bring if he come's back,umm i would post it in terms of points,
1)MQM is certainly not thinking NATIONALLY,he possess a BRITISH PASSPORT and he is governing LARGEST CITY of PAKISTAN,when he would come back,he could take an office hold,populate his party apart from being just a REGIONAL PARTY.

OK...

2)He upholds critiscm from his critics,he peronally could answer that,living in LONDON and talking about POVERTY doesn't suit true LEADERS.

Agreed!

3)Just Nominating a Nazim for Karachi isn't a MIRACLE from his side,he personally needs some accomplishments and if he come's back ,he has to prove to the nation,APART FROM KARACHI HEIGHTS.

OK!

3)NS is the best example,what role he has in politics still,people vote for him,i personally is not a voter of him,BUT he knows how the business of politics MANUVERS,AH needs accomplishment's people ask what AH has done except hiding in LONDON,he could take vote bank he even bigger then his party is taking at the moment,Could possibly bring a fresh air of change,PEOPLE ARE READY FOR NEW FACES.

NS [funnny] For awaam what he has done, poverty, inflationetc... u can give him credit to mobilize people for judiciary... but for poor people what he have done yet whos' only issue is every day bread n butter?????

AND about not giving party leader ship to his daughter,my dear after AH,MQM won't EXIST,if it doesn't stay's in the FAMILY,kyun kay VOTE AH ko parta hai us kay kamo ko naee,PERHAPS I CAN BE WRONG,BUT MAJORITY OF PEOPLE OF PAKISTAN SHARE THIS MENTALITY!! :| [hmmm] :)

I said the same thing about Pakistani mentality........

May be we are still slave like were slave during the Malokiat period :( of most of the Muslim "Kings" (not Khalifa)

We have lost the golden tradition to 1st question our leaders.....

 

[Star Gazer]

@butshikan
I am amazed and but not surprised at the defence you are taking up for AH
What will he be able to do different for pakistan by coming back?
Following are some questions for your general information since so pretend to be so naive.
Now you tell me what is meant by leading from the front? who should do it?
What is meant by setting an example and who should do it?
Who leaves the ship last if in danger ensuring everybody on board is safe first?
If he can not do anything different for Pakistan or any good for Pakistan by coming here then what is he doing for us by sitting comfortable over there and using the hard earned money of his workers ,Pakaistani rupees converted to pound sterling to support an impotent leader!
Do you know of any 'Leader' who left country of his free will and then tries to tell them what they should do? and then imagine the people of a country opposed to our existence are trying to defend him, deifinitly tells me a lot more about him and his intentions. I am sure Ghairat ka takaaza khuch aur ho gaa.

 

[butshikan]

@butshikan
I am amazed and but not surprised at the defence you are taking up for AH
What will he be able to do different for pakistan by coming back? Frankly none of your business.
Following are some questions for your general information since so pretend to be so naive.
Now you tell me what is meant by leading from the front? who should do it?
What is meant by setting an example and who should do it?
Who leaves the ship last if in danger ensuring everybody on board is safe first?
If he can not do anything different for Pakistan or any good for Pakistan by coming here then what is he doing for us by sitting comfortable over there and using the hard earned money of his workers ,Pkaistani rupees converted to pound sterling to support an impotent leader!
Do you know of any 'Leader' who left country of his free will and then tries to tell them what they should do? and then imagine the people of country opposed to our existence are trying to defend him, deifinitly tells me a lot more about him and his intentions.Yours are clear all the time. I am sure Ghairat ka takaaza khuch aur ho gaa.

I am defending him :o please see my prior reply I have asked so that (if required) I can review my thinking. :roll:

The initial debate was on system not personality and I don't want to discuss him myself as after seeing his photo with BP his respect drop exponentially not only in my eye but many of the peoplwho initially admire him......

I was trying to say that If MQM is a Tehreek than it should be independent of Personalities.

But what I am receiving is almost same comments from supporters and critics of MQM that MQM is nothing without AH....

OK fine ......just try to think from other perspective as well (only for a change) [okkk]

And please comment on this thread as well (Thanks)

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=17755

 

[Star Gazer]

I have read your other thread and and was a bit confused as to what are you trying to do here? When you take a position on any issue you have to be fair and analyze your own motives and thoughts before you let them loose out to be considered by others.
My responses are to your quetsions and comments not to your intentions and I think that is the only way to answer in a debate otherwise I would be guilty of favoratism by assuming intentions on the part of the other debator.

 

[butshikan]

I have read your other thread and and was a bit confused as to what are you trying to do here? When you take a position on any issue you have to be fair and analyze your own motives and thoughts before you let them loose out to be considered by others.
My responses are to your quetsions and comments not to your intentions and I think that is the only way to answer in a debate otherwise I would be guilty of favoratism by assuming intentions on the part of the other debator.

I am only trying to clear doubts in my mind......... and I think you are confused because we have now a habit of following a leader not the basic spirit and teachings of the movement which initially presented by the leader him/herself......

We are followers of those who says "O Muslims, If I go against the basic teaching of Islam during my role as 2nd Caliph then what will you do?" .....and later show his content on getting the answer from a lay man "we do this (taking out his sword out of the cover)"

 

[Star Gazer]

I am only trying to clear doubts in my mind......... and I think you are confused because we have now a habit of following a leader not the basic spirit and teachings of the movement which initially presented by the leader him/herself......

We are followers of those who says "O Muslims, If I go against the basic teaching of Islam during my role as 2nd Caliph then what will you do?" .....and later show his content on getting the answer from a lay man "we do this (taking out his sword out of the cover)"

Absolutely true. Yes I may be confused about many things but I have tried to do one thing inlife ( success rate ?)and that is try to apply the same principles of judgement to all so that I can be fair. Some facts are so simple that if you try to find reasons then you are either fooling yourself or others. Lets take the case of AH in london. What possible explaination do you think would be offered other than security for his life ,if that is the reason would not any one with common sense think 'that means, my life and respect is less important than yours' if that is the way you think then you are no better than the feudal lord that you so vehemently oppose, he is atleast not in disguise and can be recognized but you are pretending to be some one else and that means you think Iam a fool. End of following.
"Momin aik sorakh sey do baar naheen dasa jata" This is a Hadees for you to understand and apply.
Another one " Jo cheez tum ko shak main dalay us ko chor do"
Another one " Jis cheez per tumhara dil raazi ho woh karoo" (This last one is the mafhoom I am not sure about the exact words)
We can only be fooled if we want to be fooled.

 

[butshikan]

Ok now let me 1st clear my instance:
I am an MQM supporter (supporting the good aspects of its policy and conducts)

On the other hands have many reservations with them too like AH nationality, AH speech in India and general public appearence etc.

What I can see is normally the party respects the general public view and often take stands on issues.....

I am trying to say that "Please try to look upon it without the tags put on it and do try to respect other feelings as well"

 

[Star Gazer]

Ok now let me 1st clear my instance:
I am an MQM supporter (supporting the good aspects of its policy and conducts)

On the other hands have many reservations with them too like AH nationality, AH speech in India and general public appearence etc.

What I can see is normally the party respects the general public view and often take stands on issues.....

I am trying to say that "Please try to look upon it without the tags put on it and do try to respect other feelings as well"

If by being an mqm supporter you mean that you support the good deeds done by them then that is the thing to do for everyone even the indians or americans or russians, BUT if you mean that you support the philosophy/ideaologoy of the party then that is a different thing altogether.
You have to understand that political parties are based on ideologies and not just the material good they do, We carved out a homeland of Pakistan due to ideological differences with the indians not because the congress would not make roads, or schools or factories or hospitals.
What AH says about Pakistan in india is based on his ideological beliefs and that is the root of his philosophy and if his party members do not agree with it then it is their moral duty to rectify it or announce seperation from him not just try to expalin what he meant because we understand very well what he said, it was plain urdu which he used to declare his beleif. It is deception if we say one thing and do another.In Koran Allah says (Translated) "Kiyoon kehtay ho woh baat jo tum kartay naheen ". Lets take a hypothetical situation, assume for the sake of discussionthat I am living in your home and you are trying to provide for me the opportunities that you can and there are other people in your home too who are in the same situation and they are all trying to do what they think is best for them,sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong and we all land in trouble off and on. One day I decide to visit your rival xyz and say that it was the biggest mistake of my life when I chose to live in your home, but I go on to live in your home and use the resources and when you confront me with the truth of the statement I try to expalin it to you in ways similar to AH does. What will you do ? either ask me to leave or let me stay. But if you let me stay will you trust me completely as you did before or view me and my acts with ceratin amount of concern and doubt.?

 

[butshikan]

Lets take a hypothetical situation, assume for the sake of discussionthat I am living in your home and you are trying to provide for me the opportunities that you can and there are other people in your home too who are in the same situation and they are all trying to do what they think is best for them,sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong and we all land in trouble off and on. One day I decide to visit your rival xyz and say that it was the biggest mistake of my life when I chose to live in your home, but I go on to live in your home and use the resources and when you confront me with the truth of the statement I try to expalin it to you in ways similar to AH does. What will you do ? either ask me to leave or let me stay. But if you let me stay will you trust me completely as you did before or view me and my acts with ceratin amount of concern and doubt.?

[wall]
"assume that that I am living in your home" :o

Totally wrong assumption........

We migrate to our new home in 1947 (mind it)

You can give example of brother n sisters...... if you want too.....

Pakistan's ideology was LaIllaha Illaha Illallah Muhammed ur Rasoolullah not ethinic or linguistic......

 

[Star Gazer]

Lets take a hypothetical situation, assume for the sake of discussionthat I am living in your home and you are trying to provide for me the opportunities that you can and there are other people in your home too who are in the same situation and they are all trying to do what they think is best for them,sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong and we all land in trouble off and on. One day I decide to visit your rival xyz and say that it was the biggest mistake of my life when I chose to live in your home, but I go on to live in your home and use the resources and when you confront me with the truth of the statement I try to expalin it to you in ways similar to AH does. What will you do ? either ask me to leave or let me stay. But if you let me stay will you trust me completely as you did before or view me and my acts with ceratin amount of concern and doubt.?

[wall]
"assume that that I am living in your home" :o

Totally wrong assumption........

We migrate to our new home in 1947 (mind it)

You can give example of brother n sisters...... if you want too.....

Pakistan's ideology was LaIllaha Illaha Illallah Muhammed ur Rasoolullah not ethinic or linguistic......

Thankyou for strengthening my point . And if you don't mind what was/is the ideology of mqm? MUHAJJIR quami movement! is this ethnic or not. This is the foundation and thinking .Changing the name has not changed the philosophy and that is the exact reason I suggest that the founder/originator of the ethnic based party needs to be replaced by some one who can bring in new fresh and uniting philosophy.
If you want to enforce your point only be engaging me in a discussion that I am very clear about, that I think will not happen. Please do not repeat the same arguments it gets repetitive.

 

[butshikan]

If you want to enforce your point only be engaging me in a discussion that I am very clear about, that I think will not happen. Please do not repeat the same arguments it gets repetitive.

Not intentional n nothing personal........