An Academic Question on Riba. Need help. Please tag your friends. Any help would be appreciated

golmaal

Banned
  • If RIBA is "RENTING of Money" and money can be Dollar, Rupee, Gold, Silver, Wheat grain, Rice, Land, Water, etc. This definition leads up to a false conclusion that renting land is Riba as well.

Riba is exchange any two things of the same type in different amount. In a barter system, there is no fixed currency. The units of currency are items of exchange. In that scenario exchanging same-type good in different quantities is just like taking a loan with interest.


  • The other issue was Inflation. I shared my view that in an Inflationary enviroment, it is actually the BORROWER who is getting RIBA if the lent loan doesnt not have an interest rate less than the Inflation rate because the VALUE BORROWED was not RETURNED at the end of the loan. (i.e. the returned money is worth less than the money borrowed). The Sheikh said "The borrower is poor and how could be be making interest on borrowed money.?" Once I cleared his views that today its the most powerful who are the borrowers (Nations, corporations and wealthy individuals) who have to most amount of outstanding loans and they are making money off from the borrowed money. It was at that point I felt the Sheikh openned up to me and said never in the History of Mankind has a system this twisted imposed on the humans.

Time value of money is there in interest based economies using fiat currencies. Suppose we have an economic system where banks cannot churn out excess cash as per requirement and where we don't have to deal with foreign currencies. In this system, inflation would be essentially zero and therefore if something is rent without interest, no-one incurs a loss. Also in such a system, the value of currency will not change but the value of goods could change with changes in economy.

You can download an treatise on the subject at http://www.muftitaqiusmani.com/images/stories/downloads/pdf/an introduction to islamic finance.pdf

The book is written by Mualana Taqi Usmani, a re-known scholar in islamic finance from Pakistan.
 

iceburg

Banned
>>Hence "Time Value of Money" also lacks sound logical footings.
Point taken. Since no inflation, no need for premium. Lekin what about default? Credit quality, business prospective, market volatility. These are the factors of cost in doing a business. Whats the way to handle that?

In Section-I of this incomplete work I compared corresponding concepts of Economics and Accounting and concluded that what is "factor interest" (i.e. Cost of Capital) in Economics, it is "leasing" (rent of non-fixed asset) in Accounting. In the future sections, I was to propose that Lease Cost/Income also should have relation with Production and should not have relation with time period. Relation of time period is not fully justified with even cost/income of land. This point needed far more explanation.

Anyways ... in a Riba based Loan system ,,, Riba Eater acts like a parasite and Riba payer gets a false raised wealth.

An Entrepreneur combines other three factors to make a firm. He also gets loan from Bank in the form of money and purchases business assets in his own name. Suddenly he becomes owner of such assets which he could not purchase out of his own pocket. He was already rich and have become more rich quite suddenly.

Now firm starts earning income. That income is practically divided in following way:

1- labour gets Wages.
2- Entrepreneur gets lease income of assets because he is owner of assets
3- land owner gets rent
4- Entrepreneur gets profit
5- Bank gets Riba

Now see Production which was the effort of four parties (factors) is being divided among five parties.

Had the Bank not given Loan in the form of money ... but had invested capital assets (tools/machines) then Entrepreneur not had become more rich so suddenly. Then role of Bank would not of a parasite. Then lease income would have gone to bank. Then Entrepreneur would not have been earning undue extra lease income. Then four factor income would be divided among only four parties thus resulting in fair and equitable distribution of income and wealth. Then role of bank would be more active towards production activities of economy and then whole economy would be even more documented regarding production data because bank would also receive lease income out of production. Then fixed costs could be marginalized and there would be more chances for talented but poor people to become Entrepreneurs.


Acha tell me something. This State Bank of Pakistan. I heard from somewhere big Muftis have endorsed the operations of the State Bank of Pakistan too.. Is that true? SBP creates the Bond market, it sets the discount rate window, its the player in the repo market. It handles the BoP for Pakistan. How can a bank like this be endorsed by Muftis (I heard Muneeb-ur-Rehman's name) . How come there isnt a fatwa against SBP?

I m thinking about writing an article on SBP, inflation, hoarding, interest and Fatwa for Express tribune and the news. I'm just gonna lay it out for the Islamic Scholars.

I have no first hand information about this issue. But it is true that "mufti-pan" also have many commercial applications.
 

imran1976

Councller (250+ posts)
Acha tell me something. This State Bank of Pakistan. I heard from somewhere big Muftis have endorsed the operations of the State Bank of Pakistan too.. Is that true? SBP creates the Bond market, it sets the discount rate window, its the player in the repo market. It handles the BoP for Pakistan. How can a bank like this be endorsed by Muftis (I heard Muneeb-ur-Rehman's name) . How come there isnt a fatwa against SBP?

don't know about this but what we all know is that the banks tagged with the name Islamic are also regulated by State bank of Pakistan.
 

AsifAmeer

Siasat.pk - Blogger
You're right. Land doesnt qualify as a commodity. Not the best example.

Lekin the line b/w Money and commodity is very thin. Silver's money. so is Gold.

Funny thing is the fiat currency isnt actually a commodity because the newly issued credit to the federal Govt is of a lesser value and the previous credit in circulation. So, even however minute, there's still a difference, which in time builds up to be a huge difference.


Islam differentiates between Medium of exchange i.e Money and Commodity - The reason is, if Islam doesn't differentiate and allows money to be treated like a commodity than people will say (like they say) that they have the right to earn profit on their commodity (money) like as in every commodity. Money is just a medium to facilitate business transactions and not the business itself.

Regarding the Hadith of dates, people in those times used to treat dates,wheat,salt etc., as a medium of exchange and the reason that rules governing medium of exchange applied here i.e hand to hand, equal for equal -- The Hadith exactly points out that the rule "equal for equal" was violated and the reason Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam cautioned about Riba'.

for land to serve as a medium of exchange, it should perform the functions of money. Now can land work as a money, can i purchase 1 kilo of meat in exchange for land, if yes how? Also does it perform the function of Unit of account, how do we measure the market value of goods & services in sqft of land??

Regarding your transaction, i just see this as a transaction where commodities are exchanged and even in this transaction you are dependent on money (medium of exchange) dollar,gold etc., to determine the market value of both commodities.
 

AsifAmeer

Siasat.pk - Blogger
There are some things we do that we remain proud of. We make it the Mighty dollar is that article for me. The idea is so simply yet with such profound effects. I was at a gathering of Investnment managers and Peter Schiff was here and I asked the same question. While taking a sip from his water bottle, Peter pauses, puts down his bottle and simply pauses for 2 seconds. Then he replies "Countries are setting up Swapline lines b/w central banks. Gold is the ultimate solution). But it was interesting to see the question mark on his face.

Not only would this solution help appreciate the Rupee, but if it were implemented, there wouldnt be a need for BRIDGE LOANS from IMF, hence NO FOREIGN DEBT! Sure Pak Rupee would have depreciated faster (because Pakistan is running a trade deficit). Infact I would argue the Rupee depreciation would have helped Pakistan rebalance its economy.

Floating currency is a great idea... but on paper. It has once again proved beyond a doubt that Govts leave no resources under its command un-abused. Govts simply shouldnt have the right to monopolize currency.

Loss of purchase power comes from 2 basic phenomenon.
1- Budget deficts of the Federal Govt
2- Financialization of Private assets via the commercial banks.

Its important to separate these 2 and not lump them together. Capitalism is free-market and banking. Its the Banking part of Capitalism thats inherently unstable (like i mentioned my Capitalism article)

It was all going good in the article until we reached the funny part "The State Bank of Pakistan should demand payments for its exports to be settled in Pak rupees"

aren't you asking too much, i mean these guyz don't even change their pants unless the orders comes from the big boss, demanding (a strong word) payments to be made in Pak rupees is a far far away thing.

The article strengthens my view point that the loss in purchasing power of the money is a phenomena related to capitalism -- How can Islam intervene with solutions that are designed by capitalism, Islam can only provide genuine solutions which falls within the ambit of Islamic principles. The only solution which i see ( vast majority of Islamic Scholarship will disagree with this) is to go back to the Gold standard -- i don't think that the big boss will be able to manipulate the Gold as it do with the poor useless paper.

I await your response to my post#57.
 

AsifAmeer

Siasat.pk - Blogger
Time value has multiple components to it. Inflation is just 1 of them
1. Business Risk
2. Party risk.
3. Macro Economic risk.


>>and where we don't have to deal with foreign currencies
A balanced trade increases productivity. Plus foreign currency will always be a part of the foreign trade which has been happening for thousands of years.

I am gonna go thru Mufti's article.

Thanks for sharing.
Riba is exchange any two things of the same type in different amount. In a barter system, there is no fixed currency. The units of currency are items of exchange. In that scenario exchanging same-type good in different quantities is just like taking a loan with interest.




Time value of money is there in interest based economies using fiat currencies. Suppose we have an economic system where banks cannot churn out excess cash as per requirement and where we don't have to deal with foreign currencies. In this system, inflation would be essentially zero and therefore if something is rent without interest, no-one incurs a loss. Also in such a system, the value of currency will not change but the value of goods could change with changes in economy.

You can download an treatise on the subject at http://www.muftitaqiusmani.com/images/stories/downloads/pdf/an%20introduction%20to%20islamic%20finance.pdf

The book is written by Mualana Taqi Usmani, a re-known scholar in islamic finance from Pakistan.
 

imran1976

Councller (250+ posts)
Lekin the line b/w Money and commodity is very thin. Silver's money. so is Gold.

Money has no intrinsic utility of it's own whereas Commodity has -- I can't neither fulfill by thirst nor hunger directly from money , it's just a medium of exchange ; i exchange it for water/wheat to fulfill by thirst/hunger.

“Money is such a companion of yours that it does not benefit you, unless it leaves you.”
(Imam Hasan Al-Basri
)
 
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imran1976

Councller (250+ posts)
There are some things we do that we remain proud of. We make it the Mighty dollar is that article for me. The idea is so simply yet with such profound effects. I was at a gathering of Investnment managers and Peter Schiff was here and I asked the same question. While taking a sip from his water bottle, Peter pauses, puts down his bottle and simply pauses for 2 seconds. Then he replies "Countries are setting up Swapline lines b/w central banks. Gold is the ultimate solution). But it was interesting to see the question mark on his face.

Not only would this solution help appreciate the Rupee, but if it were implemented, there wouldnt be a need for BRIDGE LOANS from IMF, hence NO FOREIGN DEBT! Sure Pak Rupee would have depreciated faster (because Pakistan is running a trade deficit). Infact I would argue the Rupee depreciation would have helped Pakistan rebalance its economy.

Floating currency is a great idea... but on paper. It has once again proved beyond a doubt that Govts leave no resources under its command un-abused. Govts simply shouldnt have the right to monopolize currency.

Loss of purchase power comes from 2 basic phenomenon.
1- Budget deficts of the Federal Govt
2- Financialization of Private assets via the commercial banks.

Its important to separate these 2 and not lump them together. Capitalism is free-market and banking. Its the Banking part of Capitalism thats inherently unstable (like i mentioned my Capitalism article)

but isn't it that the mighty dollar has been imposed on mankind forcefully " might is right" " jis ki lathi uski bhans" -- but even the mighty dollar isn't able to retain it's value , the price of Gold/oz in 1990, $300 - the price of Gold/oz in 2012, $1600.

So if the mighty dollar can't hold on to it's worth, how is poor rupees gonna after taking into account all the steps you proposed in the article. Paper money is born with a disability, i don't think it can be cured with any medicine available.
 

imran1976

Councller (250+ posts)
Imam Al-Ghazali (550 A.H) says regarding the nature of Money in his Ihya Uloom ud din:


The creation of dirhams and dinars (money) is one of the blessings of Allah. They are stones having no intrinsic usufruct or utility, but all human beings need them because every body needs a large number of commodities for his eating, wearing etc, and often he does not have what he needs and does have what he needs not. Therefore, the transactions of exchange are inevitable. But there must be a measure on the basis of which price can be determined, because the exchanged commodities are neither of the same type, nor of the same measure which can determine how much quantity of one commodity is a just price for another. Therefore, all these commodities need a mediator to judge their exact value Allah Almighty has, therefore, created dirhams and dinars (money) as judges and mediators between all commodities so that all objects of wealth are measured through them. , and their being the measure of value of all commodities is based on the fact that they are not an objective in themselves.

Had they been an objective in themselves, one could have a specific purpose for keeping them, which might have given them more importance according to his intention, while the one who had no such purpose would have not given them such importance, and thus the whole system would have been disturbed. That is why Allah has created them, so that they may be circulated between hands and act as a fair judge between different commodities and work as a medium to acquire other things. So, the one who owns them is as if he owns everything, unlike the one who owns a cloth, because he owns only a cloth, therefore, if he needs food, the owner of the food may not be interested in exchanging his food for cloth, because he may need an animal for example.

Therefore, there was needed a thing which in its appearance is nothing, but in its essence is everything. The thing which has no particular form may have different forms in relation to other things like a mirror which has no color, but it reflects every color. The same is the case of money. It is not an objective in itself, but it is an instrument to lead to all objectives.


So, the one who is using money in a manner contrary to its basic purpose is, in fact, disregarding the blessings of Allah. Consequently, whoever hoards money is doing injustice to it and is defeating its actual purpose. He is like the one who detains a ruler in a prison.


And whoever effects the transactions of interest on money is, in fact, discarding the blessing of Allah, and is committing injustice, because money is created for some other things, not for itself. So, the one who has started trading in money itself has made it an objective, contrary to the original wisdom behind its creation, because it is injustice to use money for a purpose other than what it was created for. If it is allowed for him to trade in money itself, money will become his ultimate goal, and will remain detained with him like hoarded money. And imprisoning a ruler or restricting a postman from conveying messages is nothing but injustice.
 

imran1976

Councller (250+ posts)
Its important to separate these 2 and not lump them together. Capitalism is free-market and banking. Its the Banking part of Capitalism thats inherently unstable (like i mentioned my Capitalism article)

"In God we trust", an admission on American dollar; but when it comes to formulating economic policy the same God in which they trust is kept aside - This is where the difference lies between capitalism & Islamic economics.

Islam doesn't deny the free market economy neither it has any problems with profit motive nor private ownership but unlike capitalism where profit motive/private ownership are given powers to make economic decisions, where the decision are not controlled by divine injunctions ; Islamic economic system is bound to operate within the framework given by the supreme to whom belongs the sovereignty of the whole universe ALLAH swt'.

Unlike capitalism which treats money as a subject matter of trade, Islamic economic model is based on asset backed financing and the reason is that Islam promotes real economic activities (and not balloons inflated by fake financial transactions) with legitimate profit margin- Islam condemns the lust for wealth which doesn't see beyond one's desires and doesn't differentiate between right and wrong.

Allah swt' says:
You are distracted by mutual competition in amassing (maximum wealth) until you reach the graves.(Al-Takathur:1-2)


Prophet Muhammad saw' says:

If a son of Adam owns two valleys of gold, he would strive for having a third one; it is only dust (of the grave) that may fill the belly of the son of Adam. (Sahih Bukhari)


The question is, the system which is labeled as free, is it really free - Market forces play vital role is a free economy only if they are left to operate in a free environment but present system is such that it creates monopolies and as a result the wealth is concentrated in few hands.

In the United States wealth is highly concentrated in a relatively few hands. As of 2007, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 34.6% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional and small business stratum) had 50.5%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 85%, leaving only 15% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers). In terms of financial wealth (total net worth minus the value of ones home), the top 1% of households had an even greater share: 42.7%. ------ William Domhoff

Islam is against the concentration of wealth in few hands and believes in the fair distribution of wealth - Allah swt' says:

so that it may not circulate only between the rich among you. (59:7)

Continuing with real economic activities, capitalism which is based on Riba' discourages such activities as been explained by Imam Ghazali, seems like the Imam was visualizing our present economic system when he wrote this:

Riba (interest) is prohibited because it prevents people from undertaking real economic activities. This is because when a person having money is allowed to earn more money on the basis of interest, either in spot or deferred transactions, it becomes easy for him to earn more money on the basis of interest without bothering himself to take pains in real economic activities. This leads to hampering the real interests of humanity, because the interests of humanity cannot be safeguarded without real trade skills, industry and construction.

This argument is strengthened by the fact that the value of total derivatives stands around 750 trillion US dollars as compared to 65 trillion US dollars combined GDP of the world.

 

AsifAmeer

Siasat.pk - Blogger
Gold WAS as good as Gold till 1971. Phir it became as good as they say it is! Lost 97% of its purchase power since 1913.

Mera poora argument tha k if ur going to have a floating currency model, you cant have a reserve currency in this mode.

Pakistan should settle its exports in PKR.
but isn't it that the mighty dollar has been imposed on mankind forcefully " might is right" " jis ki lathi uski bhans" -- but even the mighty dollar isn't able to retain it's value , the price of Gold/oz in 1990, $300 - the price of Gold/oz in 2012, $1600.

So if the mighty dollar can't hold on to it's worth, how is poor rupees gonna after taking into account all the steps you proposed in the article. Paper money is born with a disability, i don't think it can be cured with any medicine available.
 

imran1976

Councller (250+ posts)
Mera poora argument tha k if ur going to have a floating currency model, you cant have a reserve currency in this mode.

Pakistan should settle its exports in PKR.

toa acha hai na , dollars sey jaan chut jaey gi but it ain't gonna happen.
 

AsifAmeer

Siasat.pk - Blogger
I like it how you put this issue from a very different angle.

We are looking at the same issue but from slightly different angles. Ofcourse there is this rent-seeking factor which we both clearly see and agree that it does not produces anything. Riba indeed is the Modern White man's burden. I dont mean the White man in a racial sense but its the rent-seeking mentality that comes with the practice.

I am starting to feel that I cant see beyond what I have since i started understanding finance (i.e. Interest based monetary system).

In Section-I of this incomplete work I compared corresponding concepts of Economics and Accounting and concluded that what is "factor interest" (i.e. Cost of Capital) in Economics, it is "leasing" (rent of non-fixed asset) in Accounting. In the future sections, I was to propose that Lease Cost/Income also should have relation with Production and should not have relation with time period. Relation of time period is not fully justified with even cost/income of land. This point needed far more explanation.

Anyways ... in a Riba based Loan system ,,, Riba Eater acts like a parasite and Riba payer gets a false raised wealth.

An Entrepreneur combines other three factors to make a firm. He also gets loan from Bank in the form of money and purchases business assets in his own name. Suddenly he becomes owner of such assets which he could not purchase out of his own pocket. He was already rich and have become more rich quite suddenly.

Now firm starts earning income. That income is practically divided in following way:

1- labour gets Wages.
2- Entrepreneur gets lease income of assets because he is owner of assets
3- land owner gets rent
4- Entrepreneur gets profit
5- Bank gets Riba

Now see Production which was the effort of four parties (factors) is being divided among five parties.

Had the Bank not given Loan in the form of money ... but had invested capital assets (tools/machines) then Entrepreneur not had become more rich so suddenly. Then role of Bank would not of a parasite. Then lease income would have gone to bank. Then Entrepreneur would not have been earning undue extra lease income. Then four factor income would be divided among only four parties thus resulting in fair and equitable distribution of income and wealth. Then role of bank would be more active towards production activities of economy and then whole economy would be even more documented regarding production data because bank would also receive lease income out of production. Then fixed costs could be marginalized and there would be more chances for talented but poor people to become Entrepreneurs.




I have no first hand information about this issue. But it is true that "mufti-pan" also have many commercial applications.
 

AsifAmeer

Siasat.pk - Blogger
There are 3 pillars of dollar.
1. Petro-Dollar
2. China buying treasuries
3. US Military

In teenoun cheezoun ki alag laga dynamics hain. Arabs accept dollar because that secures their govts. China's buying treasuries to keep its RMB devalued to boost exports. Military wont allow alternatives to be tried out. Isnt that odd that the only althernative that came out was the EURO? Clearly shows how much military and economic power you need to have an unpegged currency. Even that alternate currency lies in ruins.

I have reasons to believe dollar wont crash but the global economy will (trying to save the dollar) . When I landed at the Pak airport, the guy who helped me out with my luggage asked for money. I gave him Rs1000. He returns it and says "Giveme dollars". Thats whats gonna save the dollar - A truly fvcked up world.


toa acha hai na , dollars sey jaan chut jaey gi but it ain't gonna happen.
 

imran1976

Councller (250+ posts)
There are 3 pillars of dollar.
1. Petro-Dollar

Arabs accept dollar because that secures their govts.

Ah' the Petro-dollar & the Arabs , these arab kings are fools to sell the precious commodity- Oil which is the the joint ownership of Muslim Ummah for paper trash called dollar.

RasulAllah صلى الله عليه و سلم said,


الْمُسْلِمُونَ شُرَآَاءُ فِي ثَلَاثٍ الْمَاءِ وَالْكَلَإِ وَالنَّارِ


The Muslims are partners in three things, waters, feeding pastures and fire (musnad Ahmad)


[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=713lC9wh4_U


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzGh1x35mrk

[/URL]
 

AsifAmeer

Siasat.pk - Blogger
>>
which is the the joint ownership of Muslim Ummah
Have you read my article "Rights Vs Privileges"?

This concept of collective ownership sounds well but when has it ever worked in the history of mankind. Way I see it as that Oil belongs to the owner of that land.

Ah' the Petro-dollar & the Arabs , these arab kings are fools to sell the precious commodity- Oil which is the the joint ownership of Muslim Ummah for paper trash called dollar.

RasulAllah صلى الله عليه و سلم said,


الْمُسْلِمُونَ شُرَآَاءُ فِي ثَلَاثٍ الْمَاءِ وَالْكَلَإِ وَالنَّارِ


The Muslims are partners in three things, waters, feeding pastures and fire (musnad Ahmad)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=713lC9wh4_U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzGh1x35mrk
 

imran1976

Councller (250+ posts)
Then we bump into the "future contract" or forward contract issue.

I do not understand the Islamic prespective on the future/forward contract. If I get to speak to some Scholar, I will share it here.

What Shariah Experts Say
FUTURES, OPTIONS AND SWAPS


Should Islamic financial institutions have the freedom to dabble in derivatives, like their conventional
counterparts? According to one view derivatives add value and are justifiable on efficiency grounds. At the
same time, the Shariah does not perhaps explicitly forbid such contracts, as these are of recent origin. A variety of strategies are employed by conventional banks for risk reduction, hedging and speculation, involving
forwards/futures. options, and swaps. In order to get a definite view on the permissibility or otherwise of such
contractual mechanisms we formulated a few questions and sought the opinion of Justice Mufti Taqi Usmani. an eminent jurist of our times. Our questions and Justice Usmanis comments and answers are reproduced below.

http://www.meezanbank.com/docs/what_shariah_experts_say.pdf
 

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