پاکستان پیپلز پارٹی کو اپنے افغان بچوں کی فتح مبارک ہو

[The Sane]

Don’t Blame The ISI : indian express​

Some commentators have described the late General Hamid Gul as the father of the Taliban. Gul was no doubt the most virulent anti-Indian face among all ISI chiefs.

But it is not true that he created the Taliban, which was the brainchild of General Naseerullah Babar, Benazir Bhutto’s interior minister during her second tenure as prime minister (1993-96). Benazir did not trust the ISI. She tried to cut it down to size by firing Gul during her first tenure (1988-1990) for the ISI’s failure to oversee mujahideen operations to capture Jalalabad after the 1989 Soviet withdrawal.

Also, contrary to conventional wisdom, it is not the Pakistan army that first introduced the deadly cocktail of religion and terrorism to inflame its neighbourhood. This was done by popularly elected governments.

In 1973, PM Zulfikar Ali Bhutto asked Babar, then chief of the Peshawar Frontier Corps, to train an Afghan Islamic students’ group to undermine the Daud Khan regime in Kabul. Among those trained by Babar were future mujahideen leaders like Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, Habibur Rahman, Burhanuddin Rabbani and Ahmad Shah Massoud.

The ISI was not kept in the loop according to Babar’s own admission.
Babar replicated this strategy in 1993-94. He trained religious students from border seminaries and unleashed them as the “Afghan Taliban”. There was American pressure on Benazir to find an alternative to the fractious Afghan mujahideen, who continued infighting even after President Mohammad Najeebullah’s fall in April 1992 — Hekmatyar was fighting with Massoud; diverse militias were controlling the highways.

The Kabul government, first headed by Sibghatullah Mojaddidi, later by Rabbani, was unable to control the hinterland. Also, commercial considerations to open the Afghan highways to connect Central Asia were overwhelming.

In 1994, this anarchy was checked by a group of mysterious young men who suddenly appeared as sentinels to maintain order by rendering instant punishment to the repressive warlords.

In the beginning, we did not know the identity of this group. Towards the second half of 1994, we received an enigmatic visitor from war-torn Afghanistan, Abdur Rahman, then civil aviation minister, he was also a close ally of Massoud. Rahman revealed that the young sentinels were Pashtun students from Af-Pak border seminaries. We naturally thought they were created by the ISI.

Late in 1994, we were in for a surprise when chatter was picked up between Pakistan President Farooq Leghari and Babar. We heard Leghari congratulating Babar for taking the young religious soldiers to open up the Afghan highways. We initially wondered why Leghari should congratulate the interior minister for a suspected foreign intelligence operation, but later found out that Babar was doing this through his ministry’s “Afghan cell”.

Former US foreign service official Dennis Kux’s 2001 Disenchanted Allies prominently mentioned Babar’s role. In 2003, the US National Security Archives published a heavily redacted secret telegram of December 6, 1994 from the US embassy in Islamabad. It quoted a source saying the Taliban was supported by the interior minister.

The source told the embassy’s political officer he had accompanied then ISI chief General Javed Ashraf Qazi to Kabul, where he had “vehemently denied that his agency had any role in supporting the Afghan Taliban movement”. The source added Qazi had strongly recommended to Benazir not to support the Taliban as it “could become a dangerous and uncontrollable force which could harm both Afghanistan and potentially Pakistan”. But neither Benazir nor the US paid heed.

Kux describes the US enthusiasm to support the Taliban for commercial interests. In October 1995, Babar personally led a convoy of trucks from Quetta to Turkmenistan, passing through Kandahar and Herat, with a Taliban escort. Several foreign envoys, including US Ambassador John Monjo, were in the party.

Oil company Unocal was trying to lobby with Pakistan, the US government and also the Taliban for the Central Asia pipeline project. Robin Raphel, then assistant secretary of state for South Asia, reportedly believed that the Unocal pipeline could help bring peace and jobs to Afghanistan and gas to India-Pakistan.

The US changed its strategy only after the deadly 1998 Tanzanian and Kenyan embassy bombings. The FBI found evidence that al-Qaeda was fully in the picture over Taliban-US government negotiations.

Since then, the Taliban has splintered into more deadly groups in Afghanistan and Pakistan, some threatening regional peace by aligning with the IS. Who would have thought that democratically elected governments would have laid the foundations of these sanguineous movements?

Don’t Blame The ISI

It didn’t create the Taliban. The elected government of Pakistan did

indianexpress.com

 

[Dastgir khan19]

Thanks for the credit but soul of Hamid Gull and other Jamatias would be rotting

 

[The Sane]

Thanks for the credit but soul of Hamid Gull and other Jamatias would be rotting

That’s double congrats to PPP

 

[vicahmed99]

How about Billo Mori rotting in hell along with david

Thanks for the credit but soul of Hamid Gull and other Jamatias would be rotting

 

[sumisrar]

یہ بھی الله پاک کا دکھانا ھے - قدرت ھے
پلان ھے
کہ وہ کس طرح موسیٰ (علیہ اسلام )
کو فرعون کے گھر سے پرورش کرواتا ھے

دیکھنے سننے والوں کے لئے نصیت ​

 

[Eyeaan]

BB did the right thing. BB and Babar, in her first stint, also wanted and a quick victory and capture of Kabul which was delayed due to infighting of mijahideen. BB's expression was somewhat mujahids should taste the victory; they have won with lives.

However it is not quite right that Talban was created by BB, or babar. Initially it was an indigenous movement risen due to sextual violence and cruelty incident of local warlord of Kandahar; and Kandahar Talibs took allegiance to Mulla Omar to fight . At that level Pakistan was not involved but immediately afterwards Babar/BB decided to help them to end lawlessness and extreme exploitation of warlords and to open up Afghanistan for development since kabul government had no control over regions and was very corrupt.

 

[The Sane]

BB did the right thing. BB and Babar, in her first stint, also wanted and a quick victory and capture of Kabul which was delayed due to infighting of mijahideen. BB's expression was somewhat mujahids should taste the victory; they have won with lives.

However it is not quite right that Talban was created by BB, or babar. Initially it was an indigenous movement risen due to sextual violence and cruelty incident of local warlord of Kandahar; and Kandahar Talibs took allegiance to Mulla Omar to fight . At that level Pakistan was not involved but immediately afterwards Babar/BB decided to help them to end lawlessness and extreme exploitation of warlords and to open up Afghanistan for development since kabul government had no control over regions and was very corrupt.

I concur with your narration of events. I support Benazir for doing so. She also invigorated freedom movement in Indian illegally occupied Kashmir during her either tenures, better than Haram Sharif, Zia or Mushraff’s entire regimes. It’s a shame that her own fag party now shys away from any of her aforementioned accomplishments.

 

[Eyeaan]

I concur with your narration of events. I support Benazir for doing so. She also invigorated freedom movement in Indian illegally occupied Kashmir during her either tenures, better than Haram Sharif, Zia or Mushraff’s entire regimes. It’s a shame that her own fag party now shys away from any of her aforementioned accomplishments.

You are right about BB regarding Kashmir. She was passionate about Kashmir cause and did go far. Won't say anything about Zia because USSR was pushing India to engage Pakistan at eastern border with respect to Afghanistan. Zia was more to threat India to stay off than to open another war.
But Haram Shareef was definitely a traitor then and now. - easily pressurized by foreign persuations, threats and interests and a coward. Money and business was all for him. A businessman without a cause.
People blame BB for east Punjab but she was clear that Pak focus ought to be Kashmir only because in the end punjab was unwinnable, militaristic waste and a diplomatic liability. That was dominant opinion within military as well which she followed.

 

[The Sane]

You are right about BB regarding Kashmir. Won't say anything about Zia because USSR was pushing India to engage Pakistan in eastern border with respect to Afghanistan. Zia was more to threat India to stay off than to open another war.
But Haram Shareef was definitely traitor then and now. - easily pressurized by foreign pressure and interests and a coward. Money and business was all for him.
People blame BB for east Punjab but she was clear that Pak focus ought to be Kashmir only because in the end punjab was unwinnable, militaristic waste and a diplomatic liability. That was dominant opinion of military as well which she followed.

Agree with you in all, short of Zia’s assessment on your part. Though not an ardent fan of Bhutto, Pakistani nuke program was solely his brainchild, an embellished accomplishment of his, which no one else can snatch from him. Zia must have saved Bhutto the embarrassment of hanging, solely on that account. Also, Bhutto successfully, and for all the right reasons, impeded transfer of power to Indian dog, Mujeeb after 71.

 

[atensari]

Don’t Blame The ISI : indian express​

Some commentators have described the late General Hamid Gul as the father of the Taliban. Gul was no doubt the most virulent anti-Indian face among all ISI chiefs.

But it is not true that he created the Taliban, which was the brainchild of General Naseerullah Babar, Benazir Bhutto’s interior minister during her second tenure as prime minister (1993-96). Benazir did not trust the ISI. She tried to cut it down to size by firing Gul during her first tenure (1988-1990) for the ISI’s failure to oversee mujahideen operations to capture Jalalabad after the 1989 Soviet withdrawal.

Also, contrary to conventional wisdom, it is not the Pakistan army that first introduced the deadly cocktail of religion and terrorism to inflame its neighbourhood. This was done by popularly elected governments.

In 1973, PM Zulfikar Ali Bhutto asked Babar, then chief of the Peshawar Frontier Corps, to train an Afghan Islamic students’ group to undermine the Daud Khan regime in Kabul. Among those trained by Babar were future mujahideen leaders like Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, Habibur Rahman, Burhanuddin Rabbani and Ahmad Shah Massoud.

The ISI was not kept in the loop according to Babar’s own admission.
Babar replicated this strategy in 1993-94. He trained religious students from border seminaries and unleashed them as the “Afghan Taliban”. There was American pressure on Benazir to find an alternative to the fractious Afghan mujahideen, who continued infighting even after President Mohammad Najeebullah’s fall in April 1992 — Hekmatyar was fighting with Massoud; diverse militias were controlling the highways.

The Kabul government, first headed by Sibghatullah Mojaddidi, later by Rabbani, was unable to control the hinterland. Also, commercial considerations to open the Afghan highways to connect Central Asia were overwhelming.

In 1994, this anarchy was checked by a group of mysterious young men who suddenly appeared as sentinels to maintain order by rendering instant punishment to the repressive warlords.

In the beginning, we did not know the identity of this group. Towards the second half of 1994, we received an enigmatic visitor from war-torn Afghanistan, Abdur Rahman, then civil aviation minister, he was also a close ally of Massoud. Rahman revealed that the young sentinels were Pashtun students from Af-Pak border seminaries. We naturally thought they were created by the ISI.

Late in 1994, we were in for a surprise when chatter was picked up between Pakistan President Farooq Leghari and Babar. We heard Leghari congratulating Babar for taking the young religious soldiers to open up the Afghan highways. We initially wondered why Leghari should congratulate the interior minister for a suspected foreign intelligence operation, but later found out that Babar was doing this through his ministry’s “Afghan cell”.

Former US foreign service official Dennis Kux’s 2001 Disenchanted Allies prominently mentioned Babar’s role. In 2003, the US National Security Archives published a heavily redacted secret telegram of December 6, 1994 from the US embassy in Islamabad. It quoted a source saying the Taliban was supported by the interior minister.

The source told the embassy’s political officer he had accompanied then ISI chief General Javed Ashraf Qazi to Kabul, where he had “vehemently denied that his agency had any role in supporting the Afghan Taliban movement”. The source added Qazi had strongly recommended to Benazir not to support the Taliban as it “could become a dangerous and uncontrollable force which could harm both Afghanistan and potentially Pakistan”. But neither Benazir nor the US paid heed.

Kux describes the US enthusiasm to support the Taliban for commercial interests. In October 1995, Babar personally led a convoy of trucks from Quetta to Turkmenistan, passing through Kandahar and Herat, with a Taliban escort. Several foreign envoys, including US Ambassador John Monjo, were in the party.

Oil company Unocal was trying to lobby with Pakistan, the US government and also the Taliban for the Central Asia pipeline project. Robin Raphel, then assistant secretary of state for South Asia, reportedly believed that the Unocal pipeline could help bring peace and jobs to Afghanistan and gas to India-Pakistan.

The US changed its strategy only after the deadly 1998 Tanzanian and Kenyan embassy bombings. The FBI found evidence that al-Qaeda was fully in the picture over Taliban-US government negotiations.

Since then, the Taliban has splintered into more deadly groups in Afghanistan and Pakistan, some threatening regional peace by aligning with the IS. Who would have thought that democratically elected governments would have laid the foundations of these sanguineous movements?

Don’t Blame The ISI

It didn’t create the Taliban. The elected government of Pakistan did

indianexpress.com

 

[A.jokhio]

Don’t Blame The ISI : indian express​

Some commentators have described the late General Hamid Gul as the father of the Taliban. Gul was no doubt the most virulent anti-Indian face among all ISI chiefs.

But it is not true that he created the Taliban, which was the brainchild of General Naseerullah Babar, Benazir Bhutto’s interior minister during her second tenure as prime minister (1993-96). Benazir did not trust the ISI. She tried to cut it down to size by firing Gul during her first tenure (1988-1990) for the ISI’s failure to oversee mujahideen operations to capture Jalalabad after the 1989 Soviet withdrawal.

Also, contrary to conventional wisdom, it is not the Pakistan army that first introduced the deadly cocktail of religion and terrorism to inflame its neighbourhood. This was done by popularly elected governments.

In 1973, PM Zulfikar Ali Bhutto asked Babar, then chief of the Peshawar Frontier Corps, to train an Afghan Islamic students’ group to undermine the Daud Khan regime in Kabul. Among those trained by Babar were future mujahideen leaders like Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, Habibur Rahman, Burhanuddin Rabbani and Ahmad Shah Massoud.

The ISI was not kept in the loop according to Babar’s own admission.
Babar replicated this strategy in 1993-94. He trained religious students from border seminaries and unleashed them as the “Afghan Taliban”. There was American pressure on Benazir to find an alternative to the fractious Afghan mujahideen, who continued infighting even after President Mohammad Najeebullah’s fall in April 1992 — Hekmatyar was fighting with Massoud; diverse militias were controlling the highways.

The Kabul government, first headed by Sibghatullah Mojaddidi, later by Rabbani, was unable to control the hinterland. Also, commercial considerations to open the Afghan highways to connect Central Asia were overwhelming.

In 1994, this anarchy was checked by a group of mysterious young men who suddenly appeared as sentinels to maintain order by rendering instant punishment to the repressive warlords.

In the beginning, we did not know the identity of this group. Towards the second half of 1994, we received an enigmatic visitor from war-torn Afghanistan, Abdur Rahman, then civil aviation minister, he was also a close ally of Massoud. Rahman revealed that the young sentinels were Pashtun students from Af-Pak border seminaries. We naturally thought they were created by the ISI.

Late in 1994, we were in for a surprise when chatter was picked up between Pakistan President Farooq Leghari and Babar. We heard Leghari congratulating Babar for taking the young religious soldiers to open up the Afghan highways. We initially wondered why Leghari should congratulate the interior minister for a suspected foreign intelligence operation, but later found out that Babar was doing this through his ministry’s “Afghan cell”.

Former US foreign service official Dennis Kux’s 2001 Disenchanted Allies prominently mentioned Babar’s role. In 2003, the US National Security Archives published a heavily redacted secret telegram of December 6, 1994 from the US embassy in Islamabad. It quoted a source saying the Taliban was supported by the interior minister.

The source told the embassy’s political officer he had accompanied then ISI chief General Javed Ashraf Qazi to Kabul, where he had “vehemently denied that his agency had any role in supporting the Afghan Taliban movement”. The source added Qazi had strongly recommended to Benazir not to support the Taliban as it “could become a dangerous and uncontrollable force which could harm both Afghanistan and potentially Pakistan”. But neither Benazir nor the US paid heed.

Kux describes the US enthusiasm to support the Taliban for commercial interests. In October 1995, Babar personally led a convoy of trucks from Quetta to Turkmenistan, passing through Kandahar and Herat, with a Taliban escort. Several foreign envoys, including US Ambassador John Monjo, were in the party.

Oil company Unocal was trying to lobby with Pakistan, the US government and also the Taliban for the Central Asia pipeline project. Robin Raphel, then assistant secretary of state for South Asia, reportedly believed that the Unocal pipeline could help bring peace and jobs to Afghanistan and gas to India-Pakistan.

The US changed its strategy only after the deadly 1998 Tanzanian and Kenyan embassy bombings. The FBI found evidence that al-Qaeda was fully in the picture over Taliban-US government negotiations.

Since then, the Taliban has splintered into more deadly groups in Afghanistan and Pakistan, some threatening regional peace by aligning with the IS. Who would have thought that democratically elected governments would have laid the foundations of these sanguineous movements?

Don’t Blame The ISI

It didn’t create the Taliban. The elected government of Pakistan did

indianexpress.com

If this is true we will love benazir PPP for this....

 

[Eyeaan]

Agree with you in all, short of Zia’s assessment on your part. Though not an ardent fan of Bhutto, Pakistani nuke program was solely his brainchild, an embellished accomplishment of his, which no one else can snatch from him. Zia must have saved Bhutto the embarrassment of hanging, solely on that account. Also, Bhutto successfully, and for all the right reasons, impeded transfer of power to Indian dog, Mujeeb after 71.

My comment about Zia regards the containment of India while India was under immense pressure only.
Zia was fighting an existential war. In his first meeting with Desai, he emphasized that Pakistan was fighting India's war as much, which was a fact though 'hindu opportunism" has always been too over clever. At First Desai had been tacitly collaborating Pakistan but when later india became a real threat (more because of nuclear issue), Zia in no uncertain terms, made nuclear threat to India. So expecting Zia to fight in Kashmir or even go deep in Siachin is over board.
I'm very much opposed to zia on political/ideological issues (except arguable an impossible political impasse that put him to power) but as a general or on tactics or on financial honesty he is at top. His act in afghan war will stay in history books. Everyone joins the victor but US all along was content to wound and contain US at Durand line - but pushing Russia of Amu river was Pak/Zia policy. Much of Pak gains were lost when Junejo/FO succumbed to foreign pressure and was summarily sacked. I might be all leftist but as a general he fought his inning well and what happened afterwards is fault of latter leaders.

 

[The Sane]

My comment about Zia regards the containment of India while India was under immense pressure only.
Zia was fighting an existential war. In his first meeting with Desai, he emphasized that Pakistan was fighting India's war as much, which was a fact though 'hindu opportunism" has always been too over clever. At First Desai had been tacitly collaborating Pakistan but when later india became a real threat (more because of nuclear issue), Zia in no uncertain terms, made nuclear threat to India. So expecting Zia to fight in Kashmir or even go deep in Siachin is over board.
I'm very much opposed to zia on political/ideological issues (except arguable an impossible political impasse that put him to power) but as a general or on tactics or on financial honesty he is at top. His act in afghan war will stay in history books. Everyone joins the victor but US all along was content to wound and contain US at Durand line - but pushing Russia of Amu river was Pak/Zia policy. Much of Pak gains were lost when Junejo/FO succumbed to foreign pressure and was summarily sacked. I might be all leftist but as a general he fought his inning well and what happened afterwards is fault of latter leaders.

Agreed, but misguided political actions almost always have macabre implications on foreign policy as well. If Zia didn’t make shortsighted political overtures, we wouldn’t be dealing with such haunting dearth of genuine and patriotic political leadership in Pakistan today. Please bear in mind, had military not discovered gems like Altaf Hussain and Haram Sharif to neutralize the clout of Bhutto, Pakistani military didn’t need to undertake umpteen cleansing operations in Karachi, or get blackmailed at the hands of Haram Sharif and her daughter. Also, I am certain there wouldn’t be any sign of Zardari either.

 

[Everus]

It has never been a secret that Benazir Bhutto was mother of Taliban.
Taliban were produced to serve American's interests and they served gooood.
Current fall of Kabul is part of the same game that was started by Mulla Umar and continued by rest of the Taliban leadership.

Benazir and Mulla Umar shares in same hellfire for committing the heinous crimes against poor and helpless people of Afghanistan and humanity in general.

 

[Sn Sunny]

Ab Sahi muqabala ho ga
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