Citizen X
President (40k+ posts)
That is also true. There is only one.
VVV
VVV
Because
And we should follow this because
Am I right?
اسلام میں شادی شدہ مرد کیلئے زنا کی کس قدر سخت سزا ہے"مفتی طارق
- Thread starter A.jokhio
- Start date
VVV
Am I right?
OK.
Siasat Pk. has self modified my caption..it was basically in context of response of our institution towards Zubair Umar adultery evidence...He was a parliamentarian...took oath to guard the boundaries of Allah and ideology of Pakistan (two nation theory-i.e a separate muslim state where muslims could implement the rule of Allah)...He took oath a an elected member to guard the lives and honor of Pakistani's, (both men and women) that he ruined at his bed...one of that bed was of Governor house also...he brook Allah's law, Constitution of Pakistan, his oath, and law of land of Pakistan....Yet there is complete silent from our Govt., Institutions (including Parliament, Political parties, Judiciary, ECP, Police, FIA etc)...the Party of which he is member, responded, that its his personal matter....That as law of Pakistan, sharia and Constitution of Pakistan is certainly not...the matter must be investigated by concerned institutions must take action according to the outcome of the fair investigation, towards both side i.e ones who leaked the videos in public and secondly to Zubair Umar...till investigation completes he must have signed from any post or position of any institution of Pakistan, including Political Party....
Above was the the main context of my video that was dragged in completely other direction...or perhaps it lead viewer to that course...
NOW...coming to the matter of our argument....about the punishment of adultery of married person in Islam...
I m fully aware that there is a disagreement in different schools of thought about the punishment of Rjam, and all have their rationale and arguments....i respect all of them...what actually the punishment should have, only Allah knows better.....
Having said that...i come to my point of view about this Hud of Rjam...
For that we have to 1st understand that, what is the science behind every punishment or sharia ruling for any order of Allah...and what actually those codes try to protect or promote in society...What it offers to protect or provide, is:
1. Freedom to- choose, ritual, Movement etc
2. Faith
3. Life
4. Honour
5. Family-Men, women, children, parents, siblings, relatives
6. Economy
7. Society-trust bond:-Neighbours, Govt., Servants, Slaves
Every law of Allah would one way or another try to form or protect any of above area; Islam is the deen of nature…it offers code in a natural and pure common sense manner
e.g
why there is hand chopping for thief? -Science… Hand is the symbol of trust (commonly we shake hands when we meet any one) a thief breaches that trust….so the symbolic is to cut his hands)…
On the other side…this is not the case in snatching/robbery incident except where the robber points weapon on you, then there is death penalty. Why is it such?
So as, when it comes to adultery…it is the sin that Allah says in Quran that, don’t even come near to it…
Surah e Noor ordered leashes on Adulterer (marries or unmarried differentiation is not mentioned here),…Since there is no disagreement at this point I wont go in its details..
Now comes to Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)… ordering Rjam punishment to married adulterers;
In this case there are two issues:
1. It is not mentioned in Quran, and people who don’t believe in hadith wont accept it…
2. People that believe in Hadith but question the validity of those hadiths that offers Rajm punishment in view that…
2.a) It is in contradiction with Prophet Nature and Quran has different punishment for the sin without any differentiation
2.b) It is not acceptable in modern days values…
Therefore: My response point wise response to above cases is:
1. No argument; my rationale is mentioned in point 2.a below
2.a. I believe in hadiths, bcz Allah ordered us at several places and in different point to follow Prophet (PBUH), to do what he allows and abstain from what he forbade…Where would we get what Prophet’s (PBUH) Sunnah was…In my view being mercy full on us, as Allah protected Quran, he also protected and provided us the Sunnah of Prophet, and we get that light from hadiths books, highly credible scholars offered their lives for this service with all their dedication and care….
Allah choose a very hard core nation to be the prime followers of Prophet Mohammed, and every one followed the punishment of Rajm (for married couple) in the area, after Prophet’s death
Rjam maches with the common sense of justice in other areas of world laws.. (though I don’t support those laws being discriminatory)...but u will certainly find difference in punishment for adultery by married person specially women...
Allah is mercy, he ordered very intense evidence for adultery case (4 eye witnesses, with certainty of the sin), which is nearly impossible except for habitual offenders case. He places Hud of lashes in case of allegation…he ordered believers to cover sins of people….but
To protect Family, Social trust, and Child lineage and onward upbringing responsibility for marries person a heavy punishment is purely a common sense..bcz he/she had halal opportunity to satisfy its needs…unlike un marries person (as the difference in punishment of stealing and snatching)…
Some quick references from wiki pedia are added here:
(Historically, many cultures considered adultery a very serious crime, some subject to severe punishment, usually for the woman and sometimes for the man, with penalties including capital punishment, mutilation, or torture.[4] Such punishments have gradually fallen into disfavor, especially in Western countries from the 19th century. In countries where adultery is still a criminal offense, punishments range from fines to caning[5] and even capital punishment. Since the 20th century, criminal laws against adultery have become controversial, with most Western countries decriminalising adultery.
Bible:
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Judaism:
The death penalty for adultery was strangulation,[57] except in the case of a woman who was the daughter of a Kohain (Aaronic priestly caste), which was specifically mentioned by Scripture by the death penalty of burning (pouring molten lead down the throat).[58] The punishment of stoning for adulterers is directly mentioned in Deuteronomy 22:24
Hinduism
Death penalty is mentioned by Manu, as well as "penance" for the sin of adultery.
For some instances in their different segments, it used to depends on who did it (the cast complex)
Other Historical practices:
In some Native American cultures, severe penalties could be imposed on an adulterous wife by her husband. In many instances she was made to endure a bodily mutilation which would, in the mind of the aggrieved husband, prevent her from ever being a temptation to other men again. Among the Aztecs, wives caught in adultery were occasionally impaled, although the more usual punishment was to be stoned to death.
In the Middle Ages, adultery in Vienna was punishable by death through impalement.
Etc.
Even in Old Britain laws unmarried adulterer has no punishment but there was upto death punishment for married adulterer…
The ninth-century Laws of Alfred of Wessex include similar provisions, including an explicit statement that it was legal for one man to attack another "if he finds another with his wedded wife, behind closed doors or under the same blanket; or [if he finds another man] with his legitimate daughter (or with his legitimate married sister); or with his mother, if she has been legally married to his father
Following the unification of England around the early tenth century, English kings promulgated further law-codes that began to conceptualise adultery in terms of Christian sin.[3]: 208–09 These included the law codes of Cnut. Not unlike previous laws, the code specified fines in the case of an adulterous husband, or religious penance in cases viewed as minor (adultery with a slave), but also prescribed corporal mutilation for female adulterers—cutting off their nose and ears—as well as the forfeiture of all the woman's property to her husband.
Although Cnut's laws show the influence of Wulfstan, Archbishop of York, it has been argued that this violent punishment of women reflects long-standing custom that had simply not previously been codified rather than religious influence
the Rump Parliament passed the Commonwealth (Adultery) Act in May 1650, inter alia imposing the death penalty on both men and women for adultery. However, like all legislation passed by the Commonwealth, the act was repealed following the Restoration of the Monarchy in 1660)
So Rjam make sense to me, besides I believe that its Prophet Mohammad’s given capital punishment to Married Adulterers…
For point 2.b, my response is… Modern days values could only be applicable to fashions, not the framework of sharia. Islam is for all times till the end day....
That’s all from my side…Hope I have made my point…you have your right to agree or disagree..thats it.
Wake up Pak
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
What a bunch of mumbo jumbo you have written.
You should study the Quran and don't make up things that you have no direct knowledge of.
You should study the Quran and don't make up things that you have no direct knowledge of.
Citizen X
President (40k+ posts)
I wished you would have stayed on topic rather than meandering over into politics and British history. It would have saved you a lot of writing and me a lot of reading.
I will start from the part that is relevant to our discussion in order to get to the point
I would like to clarify and point out that there is a difference in what hadith and sunnah. Since the discussion is automatically going to into this direction I will do us both a favour and cut to the chase, you will as most do counter question with then what about salah, that is also not in the Quran how do we know about that, to that I will simply ask you a very simple question can you find me one person from over a billion Muslims alive today who have learned how to perform salah A to Z in every detail just by reading hadith.
Salah is one of the sunnah of the Prophet, which has been passed down generation to generation, father to son, mother to daughter, qari to students etc etc. No one has ever learned salah just by reading hadith because it does not exist in that form in the hadith.
OK let's make it simple, what do you think hadith is?
I will start from the part that is relevant to our discussion in order to get to the point
I would like to clarify and point out that there is a difference in what hadith and sunnah. Since the discussion is automatically going to into this direction I will do us both a favour and cut to the chase, you will as most do counter question with then what about salah, that is also not in the Quran how do we know about that, to that I will simply ask you a very simple question can you find me one person from over a billion Muslims alive today who have learned how to perform salah A to Z in every detail just by reading hadith.
Salah is one of the sunnah of the Prophet, which has been passed down generation to generation, father to son, mother to daughter, qari to students etc etc. No one has ever learned salah just by reading hadith because it does not exist in that form in the hadith.
Correct
That is absolutely incorrect. As I just pointed out in the above explanation.
OK let's make it simple, what do you think hadith is?
Wake up Pak
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Here is an infamous hadeeth on stoning.
Must be a joke
In the Bukhari collection of hadith (Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 8, pages 209-210) we read an alleged sermon delivered by the third Caliph Umar during his last pilgrimage:
"Certainly God sent Muhammad with the truth and revealed to him the Book. One of the revelations which came to him was the verse of stoning. We read it and understood it. The Messenger of God stoned and we stoned after him.
I am concerned that if time goes on, someone may say, 'By God, we do not find the verse of stoning in the Book of God' thus the Muslims will deviate by neglecting a commandment the Almighty revealed.
Stoning is in the Book of God. It is the right punishment for a person who commits adultery if the required witnesses are available, or there was pregnancy without marriage or adultery is admitted.
"When the verses of Stoning (Rajam) and "Rezah-Kabir" descended, they were written on a piece of paper and kept under my pillow. Following the demise of Prophet Muhammad, a goat ate the piece of paper while we were mourning.â€
(Refer also i. Sunan Ibne Majah, Volume 2 ii. Musnad Imam Ahmad, Volume 6 and iii. TaweelMukhtalifAl Hadees)
Must be a joke
In the Bukhari collection of hadith (Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 8, pages 209-210) we read an alleged sermon delivered by the third Caliph Umar during his last pilgrimage:
"Certainly God sent Muhammad with the truth and revealed to him the Book. One of the revelations which came to him was the verse of stoning. We read it and understood it. The Messenger of God stoned and we stoned after him.
I am concerned that if time goes on, someone may say, 'By God, we do not find the verse of stoning in the Book of God' thus the Muslims will deviate by neglecting a commandment the Almighty revealed.
Stoning is in the Book of God. It is the right punishment for a person who commits adultery if the required witnesses are available, or there was pregnancy without marriage or adultery is admitted.
"When the verses of Stoning (Rajam) and "Rezah-Kabir" descended, they were written on a piece of paper and kept under my pillow. Following the demise of Prophet Muhammad, a goat ate the piece of paper while we were mourning.â€
(Refer also i. Sunan Ibne Majah, Volume 2 ii. Musnad Imam Ahmad, Volume 6 and iii. TaweelMukhtalifAl Hadees)
Citizen X
President (40k+ posts)
And the shia use such outrageous hadith to mock Muslims
Wake up Pak
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
The problem with people is that they can't think for themselves. They rely on mullah/mufti/sheik/hadeeth etc.
The Quran is very clear that it is complete and detailed but people still rely on man-made books.
Wake up Pak
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
You can dislike my posts all you want but, the facts remain that, unfortunately, you are defending something which has no basis in Islam.
