؟؟؟ freedom of speech ???

[mrk123]

What was the end result ?

A prosperous Pakistan having an stable economy.

and by the way are we saying that democratic did not get any assistance from US/EU ???

No Sir, they tried but failed to get any assistance due to their lame foreign policy and internal mismanagement ...

So what if Military regimes proved to be cunning enough to get these assistance from west, After all whole pakistan benefited from it.

Well, I posted the graph for you to decide about US aid. You can dig similar numbers for EU or whoever. Mind you that EU and Japan/Arab kingdoms take their cue from the US
on whether or not to give us some handouts.

I can't argue with your interesting premise that the military dictators got the aid based on their performance or what the US saw in them? How convenient is that
it is all aligned with some geopolitical strategic initiative of the US and the west?

I don't even want to go into the argument whether US would prefer a military dictatorship or civlian rule but the point I am making is that all this aid comes into Pakistan and all of a sudden things start to look better on the metrics that show how things are going. Especially the GDP numbers that you posted. Hence my comment that its not indigenous.

Tell me one policy by Musharraf on the domestic economic front that contributed to this growth? The fact is that it just so happened that after 9/11 we were at the forefront again and US had to pump those billions to prop up Musharraf's regime. (taa'kay ravi her taraf chain aur sukoon likhay). That coupled with the economic bubble driven by speculative real estate market boom the world over in mid 2000s fueled the growth. The results are for all to see. As soon as the tap dried up when US realized that they have to extract themselves from the mess in Afghanistan and the real estate bust in 2008 spelled doom for us. You know why because we didn't have laid any economic foundation.

One other point - so you basically are saying that an independent foreign policy based solely on Pakistan's interest is not better than a policy we sell ourselves to the western powers to do their bidding?

 

[Khuram Shehzad Jafri]

ان سے کہو کے جیسے دوسرے ملکوں میں تمیز دار بن جاتے ہو
ویسے ہی یہاں پر بھی رہو

میں ایک دفع شہباز شریف کے روٹ میں پھنس گیا تھا اور میری بہت امپورٹنٹ کلاس تھی یونیورسٹی کی

یقین کرو آدھا گھنٹہ پھیلے ہی سب لوگ کو ساکن کر دیا تھا پولیس نے

یہاں تک کے فٹ پاتھ پر بھی چلنے کی اجازت نہیں تھی اور یہ میں ابھی پچلھے میہنے کی بات کر رہا ہوں - کلمہ چوک والا ایریا تھا
اس دن مجے انتہا کی نفرت ہو گی اس بندے سے
بیچارے لوگ دھوپ میں فٹ پاتھ پر کھڑے تھے جیسے کوئی مغل بادشاہ ا رہا ہو

اور ادھر دیکھو ابھی جو برطانیہ کا ٹور کیا ہے انہوں نے
کیا یہ چیزیں یہ پاکستان میں نہیں کر سکتے ؟؟

 

[Raaz]

ویسے کیسا محسوس کررہے ہو مجھے دوبارہ دیکھ کر ؟
کوئی شرمندگی ؟

ہاں شرمندگی تو ہماری ہی قسمت میں لکھی ہے
تمہارے جیسے تو نا مرتے ہیں اور نا شرمندہ ہوتے ہیں اور نا بین ہوتے ہیں

شیطان کی نسل چل رہی ہے

 

[Raaz]

یہاں بولنے کا پیمانہ ہے ؟ اور تو کون ہوتا ہے مجھے بولنے سے روکنے والا؟
تیرا مسلہ کیا ہے ؟
بول ؟
کیا تکلیف ہے تجھے ؟

اور تو تمیز مجھے سکھائے گا گھٹیہ انسان۔ تو نے مجھے کتا کہا۔ تو نے مجھے کنجر کہا ۔

شکر کر جو تجھے کسی نے کتا کہا یا کنجر کہا ، تمہیں سارا فورم یہی کہتا ہے ، میرا کیا قصور ہے ؟

میں نے کب روکا ہے تجھے بولنے سے
بول بھی رہا ہے پھر کہتا ہے بولنے پر پابندی ہے

کبھی گدھے کو کوئی روک سکتا ہے جب وہ بولنے پر آتا ہے ؟؟؟؟

 

[پرفیکٹ سٹرینجر]

ہاں شرمندگی تو ہماری ہی قسمت میں لکھی ہے
تمہارے جیسے تو نا مرتے ہیں اور نا شرمندہ ہوتے ہیں

شیطان کی نسل چل رہی ہے

میرے جیسے شرمندہ تب ہوتے ہیں جب وہ ناحق بات کریں۔ جو جھوٹ کو سچ کہیں۔

اور شیطان کی نسل بھی شرمندہ ہوتی ہے ۔ جب انسان شیطان کے وسوسے میں نہی آتا تو شیطان شرمندہ ہوتا ہے ۔ تمہاری شیطانی مجھ پر نہی چلی ۔ جاو ڈوب مرو۔

 

[Raaz]

میرے جیسے شرمندہ تب ہوتے ہیں جب وہ ناحق بات کریں۔ جو جھوٹ کو سچ کہیں۔

اور شیطان کی نسل بھی شرمندہ ہوتی ہے ۔ جب انسان شیطان کے وسوسے میں نہی آتا تو شیطان شرمندہ ہوتا ہے ۔ تمہاری شیطانی مجھ پر نہی چلی ۔ جاو ڈوب مرو۔

تو خود کو ہی حق کہتا ہے ، شیطان کی طرح
میرا تمہارے سے کیا پھڈا ہے ؟؟؟؟

 

[HSiddiqui]

Your freedom stops where you interfere other persons privacy, or his/her matters. You have to respect the freedom of others as well while claiming your freedom. And this is not something I have made it and said. It is in the article of memorandum of International Human Rights Commission.....Feel free to study....it will help.

 

[aamir_uetn]

ایک دفعہ اس نے مجھے گالی دے کر اپنی پوسٹ خود ڈلیٹ کی تھی ۔ جیسے ایڈمن کرتا ہے اور پھر اس کا نام اس پر ظاہر ہوتا ہے ۔

اور کل یہی تھا جس نے گھٹنیہ الزام لگانے کے بعد فورا! مجھے بین کیا۔

لیکن اپنی پوسٹ بندہ خود ڈیلیٹ کر سکتا ہے ، اور ممبر کیسے بین کر سکتا ہے ، موڈ کی آئی ڈی تو بلیو کلر میں ہو تی ہے

یا تو ایسا ہوتا کہ راز نے آپ کی پوسٹ ڈیلیٹ کر دی تو شک بھی کیا جاتا

 

[HSiddiqui]

ان سے کہو کے جیسے دوسرے ملکوں میں تمیز دار بن جاتے ہو
ویسے ہی یہاں پر بھی رہو

میں ایک دفع شہباز شریف کے روٹ میں پھنس گیا تھا اور میری بہت امپورٹنٹ کلاس تھی یونیورسٹی کی

یقین کرو آدھا گھنٹہ پھیلے ہی سب لوگ کو ساکن کر دیا تھا پولیس نے

یہاں تک کے فٹ پاتھ پر بھی چلنے کی اجازت نہیں تھی اور یہ میں ابھی پچلھے میہنے کی بات کر رہا ہوں - کلمہ چوک والا ایریا تھا
اس دن مجے انتہا کی نفرت ہو گی اس بندے سے
بیچارے لوگ دھوپ میں فٹ پاتھ پر کھڑے تھے جیسے کوئی مغل بادشاہ ا رہا ہو

اور ادھر دیکھو ابھی جو برطانیہ کا ٹور کیا ہے انہوں نے
کیا یہ چیزیں یہ پاکستان میں نہیں کر سکتے ؟؟

These are so called Democratic, that's why I always call them cowardly dictators. They abuse where they know they cannot be held accountable, other wise they know there worth, which is not more than stand on a foot path and wait for your turn.

 

[macbeth]

bus dear , mazaq ko samjha karo , warna zindagi barri bore bore hi ho jai gi , meri zindagi ki hard disk main to waise bhi koi na koi virus har waqt rehta hai

نواب سائیں آپ کو بھی تو وائرس پالنے کا شوق ھے۔۔اب ھارڈ ڈسک میں سنی لیون اور یامی گوتم کا ڈیٹا انسٹال کرو گے تووائرس بھی انٹری مارے گا۔۔۔ آپ اس پارکشھا سے بچنے کیلئے شاھی اصطبل کے سامنے جب سورج سوا نیزہ پر ھو تو سوا پانچ چمچ شربتِ چڑا کے ڈکّا ڈک کر جایا کرو امید ھے آپ کا وائرس گھبرا کر احتجاجن فراریت کی راہ ناپے گا۔۔

 

[atensari]

اس آزادی کے بعد جو حالت اس آزادی کے استعمال کرنے والے کی ہوتی ہے وہ بھی ناقابل بیان ہے ۔

دوسری چیزوں کی طرح آزادی کے استعمال میں بھی احتیاط برتنی چاہے

 

[sadani]

One other point - so you basically are saying that an independent foreign policy based solely on Pakistan's interest is not better than a policy we sell ourselves to the western powers to do their bidding?

No, Not at all,

My Point about Military regimes "manage" to get assistance is related to appointment of better people in foreign office and economic ministries.

Yes, i agree that when someone gives you something ( aid or loan ) , they expect you to do something in response, something like helping them strategically.

Now this is what i discussed in my second post that most of the people think that those dictators sold pakistan to west for every dirty act, But this is not true my friend, specially when we talk about Ayub and Zia Era.

In 1950s and 60s, World was bipolar and country usually have three choices :

1 - Either become a Western Ally ( SEATO , CENTO ) - Capitalism + Somehow Religious
2 - OR become a Soviet Ally - Socialism + Atheist
3 - Remain Neutral

Since Pakistan was so fragile from economic and military perspective in 1950s that we had no choice but to get weapons from somewhere either from West or from Soviets, we could not became neutral like India who had a better economy at that time.

And our Army knew it, we could not resist during 1948 in Kashmir ( Tribals fought that war ) , we could not retaliate for Hyderabad Deccan, Junagerh and Manawadar ...
and it was all due to have a lesser weaker Militiary against India. So the only choice left for us to either be a part of west or soviets.

We decided in favor of West, ( there can be a separate debate over this issue that with whom should we sided ).

I personally think it was in right direction.
Similarly we did the right thing in 80s by supporting afghans. ( plz read again this sentence that we supported Afghans , )

So whatever we did in 60s and 80s against that aid was perfectly justifiable ( in my opinion ).

 

[Raaz]

لیکن اپنی پوسٹ بندہ خود ڈیلیٹ کر سکتا ہے ، اور ممبر کیسے بین کر سکتا ہے ، موڈ کی آئی ڈی تو بلیو کلر میں ہو تی ہے

یا تو ایسا ہوتا کہ راز نے آپ کی پوسٹ ڈیلیٹ کر دی تو شک بھی کیا جاتا

کل ایک تھریڈ پر اس نے پوری پاکستانی قوم کو گالی دی ، میں ڈھونڈ کر بتاتا ہوں اگر مل گیا تو
میں نے رپورٹ کی اور اس کو لکھا بھی ، اس نے کوئی جواب نہی دیا
کچھ دیر کے بعد اس کو بین کر دیا گیا ، اور بعد میں کھول دیا گیا

اب اس بیچارے کو یہی سمجھ ہے کہ میں نے شکایت کیوں کی

او بھائی موڈ صاحب اس کو دوبارہ بند کرو ، اگر پہلے بند کیا تھا

یہ پہلے بھی بہت دفعہ بین ہو چکا ہے ،کوئی نئی بات تو نہی

پہلے اس کی آئ ڈی انگلش میں ہوتی تھی ، اب اس نے بین ہونے کے بعد اردو میں بنا لی ہے

میرا کیا تعلق اس سے ؟

 

[Sohraab]

نواب سائیں آپ کو بھی تو وائرس پالنے کا شوق ھے۔۔اب ھارڈ ڈسک میں سنی لیون اور یامی گوتم کا ڈیٹا انسٹال کرو گے تووائرس بھی انٹری مارے گا۔۔۔ آپ اس پارکشھا سے بچنے کیلئے شاھی اصطبل کے سامنے جب سورج سوا نیزہ پر ھو تو سوا پانچ چمچ شربتِ چڑا کے ڈکّا ڈک کر جایا کرو امید ھے آپ کا وائرس گھبرا کر احتجاجن فراریت کی راہ ناپے گا۔۔

ok dear ab ijazat chahta hoon , sharbat e chirra khoob yaad dilya

 

[crankthskunk]

Mr Stranger,

First of all, I for one would say, you should be given the right to express yourself. As long as you abide by the forum's rules and do not use any threats to members here.

Secondly, I strongly refute your allegations that all those who oppose you are PTI supporters. Or that those who oppose you are intolerant PTI supporters. I for one, not a PTI supporter. Therefore, your allegations that IK had been made a "kuda" are wrong, I only respect IK because he is honest. But I definitely have no affiliations with PTI or IK.

Let's come to your point of views and your support for PMLN. I cannot speak for others, but I oppose PMLN on the basis of their policies and practices, their leaders' habits and characters. I oppose you because you are supporting disgusting thugs and looters, who have looted Pakistan for decades. I challenge you to prove that even Nawaz had declared his assets honestly. I oppose him because I know that he didn't. He lied and as such, he should have been barred from taking part in the elections and should be jailed for all the loot and lies he has committed.
If you have guts take up my challenge.
If you don't do it, then I reserve the right to criticise your non-sense and most of the time very nasty attacks on people.

 

[سٹرینجر خان]

تو میرے بیٹے حکمران کے سامنے کلمہ حق تو عمران خان نے بلند کیا ہوا ہے کہ دھاندلی کی تفتیش کرواو۔۔۔۔

 

[Night_Hawk]

Mr Stranger,

First of all, I for one would say, you should be given the right to express yourself. As long as you abide by the forum's rules and do not use any threats to members here.

Secondly, I strongly refute your allegations that all those who oppose you are PTI supporters. Or that those who oppose you are intolerant PTI supporters. I for one, not a PTI supporter. Therefore, your allegations that IK had been made a "kuda" are wrong, I only respect IK because he is honest. But I definitely have no affiliations with PTI or IK.

Let's come to your point of views and your support for PMLN. I cannot speak for others, but I oppose PMLN on the basis of their policies and practices, their leaders' habits and characters. I oppose you because you are supporting disgusting thugs and looters, who have looted Pakistan for decades. I challenge you to prove that even Nawaz had declared his assets honestly. I oppose him because I know that he didn't. He lied and as such, he should have been barred from taking part in the elections and should be jailed for all the loot and lies he has committed.
If you have guts take up my challenge.
If you don't do it, then I reserve the right to criticise your non-sense and most of the time very nasty attacks on people.

I agree.
First of all, I for one would say, you should be given the right to express yourself. As long as you abide by the forum's rules and do not use any threats to members here.

 

[Night_Hawk]

No-one should be allowed to use offensive language for anyone.

 

[Khuram Shehzad Jafri]

نواب سائیں آپ کو بھی تو وائرس پالنے کا شوق ھے۔۔اب ھارڈ ڈسک میں سنی لیون اور یامی گوتم کا ڈیٹا انسٹال کرو گے تووائرس بھی انٹری مارے گا۔۔۔ آپ اس پارکشھا سے بچنے کیلئے شاھی اصطبل کے سامنے جب سورج سوا نیزہ پر ھو تو سوا پانچ چمچ شربتِ چڑا کے ڈکّا ڈک کر جایا کرو امید ھے آپ کا وائرس گھبرا کر احتجاجن فراریت کی راہ ناپے گا۔۔

بھائی کہاں یامی گوتم اور کہاں سنی لیون

یامی گوتم کو علیدہ رکھیں
;)

 

[mrk123]

No, Not at all,

My Point about Military regimes "manage" to get assistance is related to appointment of better people in foreign office and economic ministries.

What makes them look good is that they have money to play with :-) As with any business if you don't have access to capital then I am not sure if that company would look good no matter how brilliant the CFO is ;-)

Yes, i agree that when someone gives you something ( aid or loan ) , they expect you to do something in response, something like helping them strategically.

But do you see how there was this big brouhaha over the recent handout given to us by the Saudis but we don't have that same reaction when you get tens of billions for actually doing someone's bidding.

Now this is what i discussed in my second post that most of the people think that those dictators sold pakistan to west for every dirty act, But this is not true my friend, specially when we talk about Ayub and Zia Era.

In 1950s and 60s, World was bipolar and country usually have three choices :

1 - Either become a Western Ally ( SEATO , CENTO ) - Capitalism + Somehow Religious
2 - OR become a Soviet Ally - Socialism + Atheist
3 - Remain Neutral

Since Pakistan was so fragile from economic and military perspective in 1950s that we had no choice but to get weapons from somewhere either from West or from Soviets, we could not became neutral like India who had a better economy at that time.

And our Army knew it, we could not resist during 1948 in Kashmir ( Tribals fought that war ) , we could not retaliate for Hyderabad Deccan, Junagerh and Manawadar ...
and it was all due to have a lesser weaker Militiary against India. So the only choice left for us to either be a part of west or soviets.

We decided in favor of West, ( there can be a separate debate over this issue that with whom should we sided ).

I personally think it was in right direction.

May I ask you why not pick Musharraf era? I don't want to speculate on the reasons you may have.

On a high level I am an extreme opponent of military rule. But that is a whole different topic that can consume all our time. I personally think that if we didn't have military dictators ruling us for almost half of our existence and gifted us the corrupt politicians we may not have been a developed nation but we would have fared much better. We would not be at the brink of being a failed state. Some argue that we already are and they are not far off.

I think that our foreign policy could have been managed a million times better than it was by the military regimes and their short sighted approach drove us into debacles of historic proportions. Country breaking apart is one of them.

I think that if we had played our cards right in the 50s and 60s then we would have come out stronger. We didn't do it and all our efforts on the foreign policy front and building relationships was for naught when we needed real help. The 7th fleet never sailed into where we were hoping that it would.

Similarly we did the right thing in 80s by supporting afghans. ( plz read again this sentence that we supported Afghans , )

We supported Afghans at the expense of what?

Do you think that we would have taken the same position if the full weight of US and Saudis was not there?

To say that we supported Afghans and to the bidding of foreign powers who had some other objectives and scores to settle are two different things. We crossed the line of protecting our strategic interests and diluting it with the objectives and goals of a super power. The results are for all to see. We were not better off after the first Afghan war. Heck! Even the Afghans were not better off after the first Afghan war.

Most of the problems we have in our country today are a direct results of our policies during the Zia regime. The chickens, as they say, have come home to roost.

So whatever we did in 60s and 80s against that aid was perfectly justifiable ( in my opinion ).

Well, its your opinion and I respect it but I strongly disagree.

I think that our foreign policy and even domestic policies of the military dictators have hurt us a lot more than what we are told and the results on the ground bear that out.