*Breaking News* - Salman Taseer has been Assassinated By his OWN GUARD

Nice2MU

President (40k+ posts)
I am not ashamed of my religion you nincompoop!
Im saying when such matters are brought up in the west, they automatically implicate our Prophet pbuh name and such violent actions are hard to defend especially when people like you say it is right to kill someone in the street in cold blood without due process of law.


And did you put hart questions for Westerns about Drone Attacks and attack on Afghanistan? ..........I am sure you can't because you are scare that they would kick you out from their country or Police might catch you for supporting "Terrorists"

But ..........you are willing to suggest amend the Blasphemous Law to not feel shame of any killings of any alleged "Blasphemous" but hard to talk about any atrocities in Kashmir or Palestine...

You are nothing but a confused person and can't defend yourself and your religion. So leave this discussion because no one can win but keep these suggestion and try to answer any hard question in WEST....
 

awan4ever

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
1) Why these So called Human Right Activists (i.e. Asma Jehangir) don't raise voice for the misuse of other laws..

I used to think the same way but no I have realized that these people believe in their cause and are fighting for it in a just way. If you or others of your ilk believe that other laws are also abusive and need amendment why dont you start being vocal about them and make your voice heard like these "seculars" are?
Why do you want them to fight your battles?
Why should Asma Jehangir fight for a law YOU think is abusive when you want her to stop fighting against a law she thinks is abusive?


3) ...Why Asma Jehangir doesn't file a petition in Supreme Court against drone attacks???????????

Why dont you?
Why doesnt Sahibzada Abulkhair of the JASP?
Why doesnt Ibtisam Ilahi Zaheer?
Why doesnt Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman?
Why doesnt Fareed Paracha?


And by the way if you are in living in West, did you ever discuss Drone Attacks or Attack on Afghanistan with people living in West

Yes I have...very vocally..I am employed with Amnesty International.
(If you think Im a liberal because I work with AI who want to abolish death penalty, let me tell you I am against the abolishment of the death penalty as it goes against our religious beliefs. I said this to the person interviewing me for the job and yet they kept me but debate me on the issue without firing me for dissenting with their beliefs..that is how you tolerate people)

But I think you don't have arguments that's why you came to this conclusion to amend the Blasphemous Law...

I HAVE given my arguiments and I have even mentioned the specific changes I want. Have you read those?
Yes I have come to the conclusion that the law needs amendment.
But from what you are saying it sounds like "We will only allow amendments if USA stops drone attacks"!!
What stupid logic is that?
The US doesnt care. They are killing us with drones and watching us kill our selves with our own laws. They are laughing their asses off over there.
 

Nice2MU

President (40k+ posts)
I used to think the same way but no I have realized that these people believe in their cause and are fighting for it in a just way. If you or others of your ilk believe that other laws are also abusive and need amendment why dont you start being vocal about them and make your voice heard like these "seculars" are?
Why do you want them to fight your battles?
Why should Asma Jehangir fight for a law YOU think is abusive when you want her to stop fighting against a law she thinks is abusive?




Why dont you?
Why doesnt Sahibzada Abulkhair of the JASP?
Why doesnt Ibtisam Ilahi Zaheer?
Why doesnt Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman?
Why doesnt Fareed Paracha?




Yes I have...very vocally..I am employed with Amnesty International.
(If you think Im a liberal because I work with AI who want to abolish death penalty, let me tell you I am against the abolishment of the death penalty as it goes against our religious beliefs. I said this to the person interviewing me for the job and yet they kept me but debate me on the issue without firing me for dissenting with their beliefs..that is how you tolerate people)



I HAVE given my arguiments and I have even mentioned the specific changes I want. Have you read those?
Yes I have come to the conclusion that the law needs amendment.
But from what you are saying it sounds like "We will only allow amendments if USA stops drone attacks"!!
What stupid logic is that?
The US doesnt care. They are killing us with drones and watching us kill our selves with our own laws. They are laughing their asses off over there.

I am not the One who want to Amend the Blasphemous Law, this is you and Seculars like Asma, want to amend, then why are you asking me to ask SC to amend the laws or drone attacks etc. ( By the way PTI has already filed a petition in SC about Drone Attacks).

2ndly I had already answer this question that amendment is not the solution because Best of the Best Law can be misused.

So there is no guarantee if you amend the law and it would not be misused. You will have to train the security forces & implementing authorities and develop the system to not misuse any law otherwise amending all the laws is nothing but opening a Pandora's Box
 

kmanzar

Voter (50+ posts)
And did you put hart questions for Westerns about Drone Attacks and attack on Afghanistan? ..........I am sure you can't because you are scare that they would kick you out from their country or Police might catch you for supporting "Terrorists"

But ..........you are willing to suggest amend the Blasphemous Law to not feel shame of any killings of any alleged "Blasphemous" but hard to talk about any atrocities in Kashmir or Palestine...

You are nothing but a confused person and can't defend yourself and your religion. So leave this discussion because no one can win but keep these suggestion and try to answer any hard question in WEST....

Oh yeah, it’s clearly shown in your posts that how much you have a capacity of defending your religious thoughts

Can you please refer any single post of you that contains any kind of reasoning, rationale or logical statement in defense? Rather (and it’s a fact) that all your ‘defense of Islam’ consists: passing out insulting statements, personal attacks, gnashing your teeth on other members (who have other opinion then yours) and declaring them as kaffirs, hypocrates, non-muslims etc and nothing else …

And this is not a surprising attitude, people who are full of emotions, and their emotional bindings won’t based on any serious study or reasoning, just based on bit n pieces information, they react in the same manner, when their emotions get hit by any rationale, and in return they get mad in frustration and acting in the similar fashion I described above (atleast, I never met any true knowledgeable person who gets emotional and mad on reasoning)

In Pakistan it’s bearable (because every second person possess the similar behavior), but problem occurs when such minds (rather sick minds I would say) start living in civilized societies (societies where every discussion/debate based on rational arguments instead of emotions), most of time they won’t able to defend their foolish thoughts. As a result, we found people (like Siddique Khan, Shahzad Tanveer, Hasib etc) blow themselves in frustration causing lives of innocent people and give a very bad name to Islam and Muslims

So, I would suggest you again, that instead of showing your anger by just insulting people, just make your mind broader by studying more and more variant thoughts on Islam and try start thinking rationally (in other words, please grow up now) so that any debate won’t lose focus from its original point and won't turn into a heated personal attacks sort of thing

Wassalaam
 
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khanpanni

Minister (2k+ posts)
Asalamoalaikom, It is a very sensitive issue and sad day for our country. In the western country we come across many people who abuse our holy prophet
(peace be upon him) should we fight with them or do we act according to Sunnah by ignoring or arguing properly according to our holy book Coran.
We are not law maker,let this work done who are responsible for this purpose and whome you have voted for. In this very grave and difficult situation ,we have to follow the basic principls of UNITY, FAITH, DECIPLINE and mutual RESPECT to cool down the situation . My hearty condolances with the Governors family although I dislike their policies. May Allah Protect our Beautiful Country and countymen, Aamen. Wassalam .
 

wanderer

Siasat.pk - Blogger
Allah iski mghfirat karey garchay suna hai kay is ney logon ko bahut nuqsaan pahnchaya hai

Gillani saheb ki bhi baari aayegi to koi bomb proof wals will not be able to save. Izrael (AS) can go thru the impregnable walls


One of the talk show hosts, was quoting ST's Tweets !!! and went on to inform the public (IRONICALLY) Salman taseer's father provided a charpaai to Ghazi Ilm Din Shaheed's body after he was hanged. This info is to be pondered as to what co-incidence is this.
 

awan4ever

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I am not the One who want to Amend the Blasphemous Law, this is you and Seculars like Asma, want to amend, then why are you asking me to ask SC to amend the laws or drone attacks etc. ( By the way PTI has already filed a petition in SC about Drone Attacks).

2ndly I had already answer this question that amendment is not the solution because Best of the Best Law can be misused.

So there is no guarantee if you amend the law and it would not be misused. You will have to train the security forces & implementing authorities and develop the system to not misuse any law otherwise amending all the laws is nothing but opening a Pandora's Box

Aik bat per tau raho..

In one post you ask why Asma isnt doing this and that...
In the other you say amendment is not the solution...I have mentioned the amendments in the law and you dont care to comment on those...you are just going on and on about your one point agenda thats all.
If you have nothing else to say then..dont.
 

Nice2MU

President (40k+ posts)

01. Can you please refer any single post of you that contains any kind of reasoning, rationale or logical statement in defense? Rather (and its a fact) that all your defense of Islam consists: passing out insulting statements, personal attacks, gnashing your teeth on other members (who have other opinion then yours) and declaring them as kaffirs, hypocrates, non-muslims etc and nothing else


Could you please tell me or point me any of my post with full of anger or insulting others or illogical or calling other non-Muslim or Hypocrite

Or you are doing the same for which you are blaming me........

SIZE=2]And this is not a surprising attitude, people who are full of emotions, and their emotional bindings wont based on any serious study or reasoning, just based on bit n pieces information, they react in the same manner, when their emotions get hit by any rationale, and in return they get mad in frustration and acting in the similar fashion I described above (atleast, I never met any true knowledgeable person who gets emotional and mad on reasoning)[/SIZE]

By the way how much knowledge you have about this topic man for which you are blaming me.

I know in Quran what is Allah says in Surah Hujrat, 2nd Verse...

492z.png


(1. O you who believe! Make not (a decision) in advance before Allah and His Messenger, and have Taqwa of Allah. Verily, Allah is Hearing, Knowing.) (2. O you who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor speak aloud to him in talk as you speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds should be thwarted while you perceive not.) (3. Verily, those who lower their voices in the presence of Allah's Messenger, they are the ones whose hearts Allah has tested for Taqwa. For them is forgiveness and a great reward.)
....................................................................................................

Shan-e-Nazool....

It was stated that this Ayah was revealed about Abu Bakr and `Umar. Al-Bukhari recorded that Ibn Abi Mulaykah said, "The two righteous ones, Abu Bakr and `Umar, almost earned destruction when they raised their voices before the Prophet who was receiving the delegation of Bani Tamim. One of them recommended Al-Aqra` bin Habis the member of the Banu Mujashi` while the other recommended another man. Nafi` (a subnarrator) said: "I don't remember his name.'' Abu Bakr said to `Umar, `You only wanted to contradict me,' while `Umar said, `I did not intend to contradict you.' Their voices then became loud, thereupon Allah the Exalted sent down this Ayah,


Just imagine if Allah doesn't even like the speaking loudly in front of Prophet (PBHU), then how Allah would allow a person who would verbally or in writing abuses the Prophet (PBHU). So It is not the Prophet (PBHU) who doesn't like the Blasphemous behaviour, it is Allah who doesn't like it and about whom Allah is talking about i.e. the most close personalities with Allah's Messenger...

Further Allah Says in the same Sura

495r.png



(4. Verily, those who call you from behind the dwellings, most of them have no sense.) (5. And if they had patience till you could come out to them, it would have been better for them. And Allah is Forgiving, Most Merciful.)

Shan-e-Nazool

It was reported that this Ayah was revealed about AlAqra` bin Habis At-Tamimi, may Allah be pleased with him, according to more than one source. Imam Ahmad recorded that Al-Aqra` bin Habis said that he called the Messenger of Allah from behind his dwellings, saying, "O Muhammad! O Muhammad!'' "O Allah's Messenger!'' according to another narration, but the Messenger did not answer him, Al-Aqra`
said, "O Allah's Messenger.


Even Allah doesn't like if a person call Prophet (PBHU) from out side Messenger's house, then how can Allah can bear so much big insult of out Prophet (PBHU).

It shows that Allah is very much sensitive about the issues of Prophet (PBUH) insult (Naoozu Billala). Those peopled didn't even say any insulting word to Prophet pbuh and they were high profile Momeneens but still Allah didn't like even those small mistakes.

The rest read the following Mr and open your eyes. It is also the custom in Pakistan to criticize all those who talk about Islam and Values of Islam.

Now see the Blasphemous Law in the light of above verses

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthre...za-Ba-zuban-e-Syedna-Muhammad-Mustafa-S.A.W.W


In Pakistan its bearable (because every second person possess the similar behavior), but problem occurs when such minds (rather sick minds I would say) start living in civilized societies (societies where every discussion/debate based on rational arguments instead of emotions), most of time they wont able to defend their foolish thoughts. As a result, we found people (like Siddique Khan, Shahzad Tanveer, Hasib etc) blow themselves in frustration causing lives of innocent people and give a very bad name to Islam and Muslims


In this post you also just blaming me with your Foolish thoughts. How can you say this about me that I can't defend my religion. Do you know me what am I am doing in UK and what do I say here.... Why did you just assume that I can't defend myself? Why did just think this about me?
or you want to impose your enlightened agenda on me.

So, I would suggest you again, that instead of showing your anger by just insulting people, just make your mind broader by studying more and more variant thoughts on Islam and try start thinking rationally (in other words, please grow up now) so that any debate wont lose focus from its original point and won't turn into a heated personal attacks sort of thing

My thinking is broader dear but many issues about the Islam or Blasphemous is not such thing on which you can show any lenient because these things are fixed.( I guess you are very fan of Ghamidi)

You can't change or make easy the laws otherwise masses would come out and would start killing the alleged "Blasphemous". Just imagine if in the in the time of Ghazi Ilmuddin Shaheed, there would such law and if Rajpal would get sentenced, would Ilmuddin would kill Rajal?
 
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Zaidi Qasim

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
You are breaking down the numbers to decrease the effect but stop to think for a moment that the difference here is the amount of public outcry that it raises and the amount of insult it ends up heaping on the name of our religion.
Im not even asking for it to be made into a toothless law. Im just asking for it to be made into a law where the accuser gets to loose something if he cant prove his stance because i believe if an accuser is lying he is also committing blasphemy.
How does this change make it toothless?

This law is different from other laws in the sense that it can easily be used to incite trouble that can lead to massive unrest. Hence its clauses should be very well defined and very articulate so that there should be absolutely no ambiguity as to what exactly is blasphemy.

As far as the law goes now if you ask a non-muslim if Prophet Muhammad pbuh is the greatest human being ever and he says no, you can have him booked under this law.

Funny that you said that. These are not my numbers and I am not breaking them down. As far as the effect is concerned, you are right that It has a Minimum effect from the point of view of how many get effected. This is all the strom in a teapot. I am not sure why someone other than our own people whould have to be satisfied in our own local laws. As long as the people who live in Pakistan see the laws as being effective and a detterence to the actions contrary to our values and our religion,and it has beeen applied fairly , there is no need for us to satisfy those who are hell bend destroying us and our values.

I do not know about you, But I do know those who are spear heading this movement to change this particular law . Their actions are itself evidence of their real sincereity.If the intention is to have a dialogue, the Inflamatory language is counter productive in the sensitive matter like the faith. What was he doing provoking by his remarks and trying to make fun of the sentiments of thousads of people. This amendment was not something which was to be debated out in media since it was needed to be brought in to the assembly with grace, dignity and with proper legislation. As far as the lady Asia is concerned, her case was not completed and the judicial proceedures are all available to her. She still has a right to appeal and there are many other judicial avenues are avaiable to her and has not been exhausted yet. There was no need for any sort of amnesty given to her from the presidency since the right of appeal was still being considered. But as I wrote in my early post, there were growing pressures from the foreign Governments which our weak twig leaders are unable to sustain.The bottom line is , the push to make amendments and the rush to show the enlighted moderation has drown the lifeboat of those who were quick to criticise our own weaknesses but unable to stand strong in the violation of our sovergnity and dignity to protect the lives of our own innocent citizens who are being targetted everyday in the most inhuman way.
 

awan4ever

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Funny that you said that. These are not my numbers and I am not breaking them down. As far as the effect is concerned, you are right that It has a Minimum effect from the point of view of how many get effected. This is all the strom in a teapot. I am not sure why someone other than our own people whould have to be satisfied in our own local laws. As long as the people who live in Pakistan see the laws as being effective and a detterence to the actions contrary to our values and our religion,and it has beeen applied fairly , there is no need for us to satisfy those who are hell bend destroying us and our values.


I do not know about you, But I do know those who are spear heading this movement to change this particular law . Their actions are itself evidence of their real sincereity.If the intention is to have a dialogue, the Inflamatory language is counter productive in the sensitive matter like the faith. What was he doing provoking by his remarks and trying to make fun of the sentiments of thousads of people. This amendment was not something which was to be debated out in media since it was needed to be brought in to the assembly with grace, dignity and with proper legislation. As far as the lady Asia is concerned, her case was not completed and the judicial proceedures are all available to her. She still has a right to appeal and there are many other judicial avenues are avaiable to her and has not been exhausted yet. There was no need for any sort of amnesty given to her from the presidency since the right of appeal was still being considered. But as I wrote in my early post, there were growing pressures from the foreign Governments which our weak twig leaders are unable to sustain.The bottom line is , the push to make amendments and the rush to show the enlighted moderation has drown the lifeboat of those who were quick to criticise our own weaknesses but unable to stand strong in the violation of our sovergnity and dignity to protect the lives of our own innocent citizens who are being targetted everyday in the most inhuman way.

Have you ever wondered why no other Muslim country has this problem like we have?
Doesnt that make you think that we should revisit our law and see if there is a problem that needs to be plugged?
The basis and foundation of the law is supreme and from the Quran i.e. Blasphemy is a capital sin but what constitutes blasphemy and how to go about prosecuting somone accused of the crime is something that is open to interpretation and debate and anyone calling for that is not wrong.


Sherry Rehman tried that and she seems to be the next target. She is also being labelled as a heretic and gustakh.
I do concede that Salman Taseer went overboard with his remarks and incited hatred which only begets hatred.
 
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سيکرٹری کلنٹن کی جانب سے گورنر تاثير کی وفات پر پيغام



"ہم پاکستان ميں صوبہ پنجاب کے گورنر کے قتل کی پرزور مذمت کرتے ہیں۔ مجھے پاکستان ميں گورنر تاثير سے ملاقات کا موقع ملا تھا اور ميں نے پاکستان کے مستقبل کی نسل کے ليے تعليم اور روادری کے فروغ کے لیے ان کے کام کی تعريف کی تھی۔ ان کی موت ايک عظيم نقصان ہے۔ ہماری دلی ہمدردياں گورنر تاثير کی اہليہ اور بچوں کے ساتھ ہیں۔



امريکہ پاکستان کے عوام اور حکومت کی جانب سے اپنے ملک ميں امن اور استحکام کے قيام کے ليے جاری مہم ميں ان کی مدد کے لیے پرعزم رہے گا۔




فواد ڈيجيٹل آؤٹ ريچ ٹيم يو ايس اسٹيٹ ڈيپارٹمينٹ





 

Zaidi Qasim

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
[QUOTE=awan4ever;299711]Have you ever wondered why no other Muslim country has this problem like we have?
Doesnt that make you think that we should revisit our law and see if there is a problem that needs to be plugged?
The basis and foundation of the law is supreme and from the Quran i.e. Blasphemy is a capital sin but what constitutes blasphemy and how to go about prosecuting somone accused of the crime is something that is open to interpretation and debate and anyone calling for that is not wrong.


Sherry Rehman tried that and she seems to be the next target. She is also being labelled as a heretic and gustakh.
I do concede that Salman Taseer went overboard with his remarks and incited hatred which only begets hatred.[/QUOTE]

I already conceded the right of a Parliament to reconsider the laws and conditions. That is not the argument.This amendment would not be applied from the media. sensitive issues like that should never have been the topic of the media. If the argument wins the day, It has to be on the rational basis. But most of all, what the country needed is a security agencies capable of enforcing the laws and not prejudice any segment of the society for any reason.

Sheren Rehman is not competent enough to speak on something extremely sensitive like this. Her goal is quite different and even PPP leaders didn't support her argument. The personal bill could not have been allowed on such law which has a great magnitude. If anything, the Governemnt with the supports of different segments of the society colllectively tabled that bill. Sorry, Sheren Rehman is not someone who could be trusted.
 

kmanzar

Voter (50+ posts)
Dear Nice2MU

All right, I do accept your claim of being knowledgeable :) but allow me to contradict (slightly) with your following statement:

It is also the custom in Pakistan to criticize all those who talk about Islam and Values of Islam
In fact, it is a custom in Pakistan to criticize all those who talk about Islam and Values of Islam differently from the orthodox mullah’s definition of Islam.

And reason is that in our society, majority of people gets their knowledge about Islam either from family and elders OR from the molvi’s khutbas of Jumma prayers, and very few try to validate their thoughts, they just follow things blindly. As a result, so many popular practices in our society (in the name of Islam) cannot be validated either by Quran or Sunnah, and whenever some knowledgeable scholar tries to give some different (or true) opinion (based on Quran, Sunnah), gets a lot of resistance from the orthodox clan

Now let’s move ahead towards the original issue, which is about the punishment on the act of blasphemy and what should be the behavior of Muslims against someone who is alleged to be a blasphemist

I read your mentioned Quranic verses with open eyes (as per your instructions) and sorry to say I did not able to find any slight indication regarding the punishment of blasphemy in those. Do you think those 2 verses addressing the issue of blasphemy? Come-on dear, there momineens were told about the ‘adaab-e-mahfil e Rasool’ then how did you link those with the crime of blasphemy, I have no idea, anyway

Now my turn, let me present a Quranic verse, which is Surah Al-Baqara, ayah 104

‏يَٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ لَا تَقُولُوا۟ رَعِنَا وَقُولُوا۟ ٱنظُرْنَا وَٱسْمَعُوا۟ ۗ وَلِلْكَفِرِينَ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌۭ

Explanation:
Ibn Abbas is narrated to have said that the early Muslims, when the Prophet (SAW) was speaking and teaching them the divine verses often asked him to speak slowly so that they could comprehend the material well and could have opportunity enough to ask their questions. For this purpose, then, they applied the phrase “ra'ina”, which means:' give us respite, wait for us'. But the Jews took the same word from the Arabic root “ar-ra'unah” (meaning 'shepherd') which means 'O my shepherd' and suggests an insult. So, it was told by this revelation, to use another word ‘Anzurna’ instead.

Now point to understand here that when Jews used insulting words for Rasool Allah (SAW), then instead of ordering a death penalty, Allah just told the followers how to talk in civilized manner and just ignore the Jews and hypocrites.

I will also suggest you to read Surah Al-Munafequn in which an incident of blasphemiy (committed by the head of hypocrites, Abdullah Ibn Ubai) is narrated in details, that how he insulted the Prophet (SAW) and his companions by very bad words (detailed sentenced are mentioned in the surah) but what happened to him, did Allah ordered his execution in the surah? No, he died a natural death

And also mentioned in Quran that, people used make fun of Adhan, but Allah didn’t order any fatwa of death on such people, and in so many places you can find similar incidents

I hope (as you believe in Quran) you can understand what Quran says on this (instead of Mullahs version on this)

My thinking is broader dear but many issues about the Islam or Blasphemous is not such thing on which you can show any lenient because these things are fixed
Problem is that, usually that some matters achieve a level of legitimacy in a way that thinking and passing judgments on such matters becomes out of question (although there won’t be any reason of legitimacy except that those matters were never argued or challenged for ages), and whenever any intellectual tries to argue on such matters with rationale and wisdom, receives a huge resistance from the radical elements of the society with a very common charge, that is, ‘that argument was never heard from any of our ancestors, who had much more wisdom and vision, how dare that somebody can have any different opinion’ and so.

You can't change or make easy the laws otherwise masses would come out and would start killing the alleged "Blasphemous". Just imagine if in the in the time of Ghazi Ilmuddin Shaheed, there would such law and if Rajpal would get sentenced, would Ilmuddin would kill Rajal?
BTW, this is a very lame argument, since we have the law and the courts now, then why the guard killed Salman Taseer, instead of trying him in courts?

This is nothing else but a state of mind (created by the lunatics) in which everyone wants to ensure his place in Jannah (by hook or by crook) selfishly and without thinking that whether this act is turning this world into a kind of hell or not.

Conclusion:
I fully support that some kind of laws against the act of blasphemy should exist, but also want to ensure that such laws should not become a handy tool in hands of fanatics, and those laws should be across the board (insult of any religious figure should be considered as crime). Purpose of such laws should be to create harmony among the different sections of the society, not just to impose one party’s version on others.

I also want that we, as Muslims should be able to portray a true picture of Islam that emphasizes humanity, tolerance, open dialog, rationale and peace for the world.

But unfortunately by such kind of incidents, we are promoting a very bad picture of Islam, not good
 
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awan4ever

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Sheren Rehman is not competent enough to speak on something extremely sensitive like this. Her goal is quite different and even PPP leaders didn't support her argument. The personal bill could not have been allowed on such law which has a great magnitude. If anything, the Governemnt with the supports of different segments of the society colllectively tabled that bill. Sorry, Sheren Rehman is not someone who could be trusted.

Sure dont trust her but dont call her a heretic for submitting a bill in the assembly according to the due process of law.
I dont trust any mullah either. I wouldnt want them to table any bill the same way you dont trust shery rehman.
 
P

pakstar

Guest
TO my understanding..

This act was of an individual act and must be condemned regardless of who is right or who is wrong. This is responsiblity of state Judicary to decide who is right and who is wrong according to law. PPP should not say it that its political murder as according to his statement it appres that its an individual act, therefore until its decided by court.. we must not say it political, to blame others.

Secondly regarding the change in the blasphemy law, that if accuser founds guilty of miss-use this law, should he be punished or not?

If someone accuses me of robbery and later he turns out to be wrong.. should he also be punished that he accused me wrongly?

what If swati accused Kazmi for corruption in Hajj turns out to be wrong after supreme court justification, should swati must be punished of accusing kazmi wrongly?

If it is same for other laws the person who accuses falsly is subject to some penalty then YES, in baslmasy law it should be same. But if in other Laws; the accuser has no penalty for his wrong reporting, then its fine with blasmashy law too as being simliar to other laws for accuser.

One more thing this is my personal opinion you have full right to point out if I am right or wrong.. but I must say .. we should not forget that we are brothers and that we may differ but with decency and respect for each other.



Pakistan does not have rule of law anyway..and almost every law in our Pakistan requires transparency in it procedural aspect .
 
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Zaidi Qasim

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Sure dont trust her but dont call her a heretic for submitting a bill in the assembly according to the due process of law.
I dont trust any mullah either. I wouldnt want them to table any bill the same way you dont trust shery rehman.

It is not merely another bill. It is not like any other bill.There is lots of sentiments of people attached with this bill on both side of the divide. It is absloutely stupid to pass a legislature of amending this bill by the virtue of a private bill. It seems to me that no one has gauged the people's attachment to this bill and assesed it correctly. It is rather very immature and irrational to leave the amendments of such a bill on Shren Rehman's shoulder and expect it to pass in the assembly without creating a havoc which you just seeing.
 

canadian

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
The seventh heaven

Thursday, January 06, 2011



This refers to a news item “JI sees Taseer’s assassin in seventh heaven” (January 5). According to the report, the Ameer of Jamat-e-Islami in Sindh, Moulana Asadullah Bhutto, has declared that the assassin of the slain Punjab governor “will directly go to the seventh heaven!” The nation, hitherto, was not aware that the JI has acquired the franchise rights to the “seventh heaven” and that its Sindh Ameer has been designated to make the necessary reservations and requisite arrangements.

M S Hasan

Karachi
 

canadian

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_...8x90_Jigsaw&utm_campaign=NYTStore-Leaderboard
Editorial( New York Times)

A Brave Man Killed

Published: January 4, 2011



Some twisted person has created a Facebook page in support of Malik Mumtaz Hussain Qadri, the bodyguard accused of assassinating Salman Taseer, the governor of Pakistan’s Punjab province. Mr. Taseer was a brave man who had called for the repeal of Pakistan’s outrageous anti-blasphemy law.
Whoever killed Mr. Taseer must be condemned and repudiated, not extolled. Otherwise, Pakistan will certainly continue on a downward spiral in which intolerance and self-destruction triumph.
The governor’s death is a tragedy not just for Pakistan but for all who understand that just and stable societies need honest debate and full respect for minorities. Pakistan cannot afford to lose any fair-minded leaders, especially at a time when it is struggling with a virulent insurgency, an unraveling economy and an unraveling central government.
Mr. Taseer — a longtime ally of President Asif Ali Zardari and his wife, Benazir Bhutto, who was assassinated in 2007 — was Pakistan’s most prominent defender of the rights of women and minorities. He had pressed hard for repeal of the blasphemy law, which imposes a mandatory death sentence on anyone convicted of insulting Islam.
The law is popular with the Muslim majority but is routinely manipulated to settle personal rivalries and persecute minorities. And Mr. Taseer had been particularly outspoken, calling for leniency for a Christian mother of four who was sentenced to death under the law, in a case that stemmed from a dispute in her village.
Pakistani officials, who have the bodyguard in custody, say he killed Mr. Taseer because of the governor’s opposition to the blasphemy law. But there are far too many unanswered questions: Did the suspect act alone? Why did the Punjab police assign a religious conservative to protect Mr. Taseer? News reports first said nine bullets were fired into Mr. Taseer, and hospital officials later said he was hit 24 times. Yet other members of the security detail did not shoot to stop Mr. Qadri, who surrendered with his hands up.
Pakistani authorities need to investigate thoroughly and share their full findings with the Pakistani people.
The United States and the international community must make clear their outrage over this killing. So must every Pakistani. The country’s political leaders and the Pakistani media also need to consider whether the way they have shaped the debate on the blasphemy law — some have argued that mentioning reform is blasphemy punishable by death — is further fueling conflict.
Ultimately, only Pakistanis can save their nation, and they must answer the more profound questions: Do they want a country in which Muslims and non-Muslims can peacefully co-exist? Or one in which religious zealots, espousing the most intolerant interpretation of Islam, kill anyone brave enough to defend the defenseless? That would be the true blasphemy. (www.nytimes.com)
 

Nice2MU

President (40k+ posts)
Aik bat per tau raho..

In one post you ask why Asma isnt doing this and that...
In the other you say amendment is not the solution...I have mentioned the amendments in the law and you dont care to comment on those...you are just going on and on about your one point agenda thats all.
If you have nothing else to say then..dont.

Just read my post # 166 carefully and understand it where did I write about the amendment of the law? If you have eyes and brain please use it. Don't blindly jump to blame others.

I have asked the following 3 questions?


1) Why these So called Human Right Activists (i.e. Asma Jehangir) don't raise voice for the misuse of other laws..

2).. Why don't they speak about Drone Attacks

3) ...Why Asma Jehangir doesn't file a petition in Supreme Court against drone attacks???????????


I have answered your question in my next post # 170

2ndly I had already answer this question that amendment is not the solution because Best of the Best Law can be misused.

I have wrote many times that many laws are misused but it doesn't mean every law is to be amended. Instead the system should be make strong and correct to implement the laws in proper way............... But I don't know why you don't understand this point and ask me the same question time and again. If you don't understand it leave it then.
 

Nice2MU

President (40k+ posts)
Dear Nice2MU

All right, I do accept your claim of being knowledgeable :) but allow me to contradict (slightly) with your following statement:


In fact, it is a custom in Pakistan to criticize all those who talk about Islam and Values of Islam differently from the orthodox mullahs definition of Islam.

And reason is that in our society, majority of people gets their knowledge about Islam either from family and elders OR from the molvis khutbas of Jumma prayers, and very few try to validate their thoughts, they just follow things blindly. As a result, so many popular practices in our society (in the name of Islam) cannot be validated either by Quran or Sunnah, and whenever some knowledgeable scholar tries to give some different (or true) opinion (based on Quran, Sunnah), gets a lot of resistance from the orthodox clan

Now lets move ahead towards the original issue, which is about the punishment on the act of blasphemy and what should be the behavior of Muslims against someone who is alleged to be a blasphemist

I read your mentioned Quranic verses with open eyes (as per your instructions) and sorry to say I did not able to find any slight indication regarding the punishment of blasphemy in those. Do you think those 2 verses addressing the issue of blasphemy? Come-on dear, there momineens were told about the adaab-e-mahfil e Rasool then how did you link those with the crime of blasphemy, I have no idea, anyway

Now my turn, let me present a Quranic verse, which is Surah Al-Baqara, ayah 104

‏يَٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ لَا تَقُولُوا۟ رَعِنَا وَقُولُوا۟ ٱنظُرْنَا وَٱسْمَعُوا۟ ۗ وَلِلْكَفِرِينَ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌۭ

Explanation:
Ibn Abbas is narrated to have said that the early Muslims, when the Prophet (SAW) was speaking and teaching them the divine verses often asked him to speak slowly so that they could comprehend the material well and could have opportunity enough to ask their questions. For this purpose, then, they applied the phrase ra'ina, which means:' give us respite, wait for us'. But the Jews took the same word from the Arabic root ar-ra'unah (meaning 'shepherd') which means 'O my shepherd' and suggests an insult. So, it was told by this revelation, to use another word Anzurna instead.

Now point to understand here that when Jews used insulting words for Rasool Allah (SAW), then instead of ordering a death penalty, Allah just told the followers how to talk in civilized manner and just ignore the Jews and hypocrites.

I will also suggest you to read Surah Al-Munafequn in which an incident of blasphemiy (committed by the head of hypocrites, Abdullah Ibn Ubai) is narrated in details, that how he insulted the Prophet (SAW) and his companions by very bad words (detailed sentenced are mentioned in the surah) but what happened to him, did Allah ordered his execution in the surah? No, he died a natural death

And also mentioned in Quran that, people used make fun of Adhan, but Allah didnt order any fatwa of death on such people, and in so many places you can find similar incidents

I hope (as you believe in Quran) you can understand what Quran says on this (instead of Mullahs version on this)


Problem is that, usually that some matters achieve a level of legitimacy in a way that thinking and passing judgments on such matters becomes out of question (although there wont be any reason of legitimacy except that those matters were never argued or challenged for ages), and whenever any intellectual tries to argue on such matters with rationale and wisdom, receives a huge resistance from the radical elements of the society with a very common charge, that is, that argument was never heard from any of our ancestors, who had much more wisdom and vision, how dare that somebody can have any different opinion and so.


BTW, this is a very lame argument, since we have the law and the courts now, then why the guard killed Salman Taseer, instead of trying him in courts?

This is nothing else but a state of mind (created by the lunatics) in which everyone wants to ensure his place in Jannah (by hook or by crook) selfishly and without thinking that whether this act is turning this world into a kind of hell or not.

Conclusion:
I fully support that some kind of laws against the act of blasphemy should exist, but also want to ensure that such laws should not become a handy tool in hands of fanatics, and those laws should be across the board (insult of any religious figure should be considered as crime). Purpose of such laws should be to create harmony among the different sections of the society, not just to impose one partys version on others.

I also want that we, as Muslims should be able to portray a true picture of Islam that emphasizes humanity, tolerance, open dialog, rationale and peace for the world.

But unfortunately by such kind of incidents, we are promoting a very bad picture of Islam, not good


Blasphemous Law is not only against the Blasphemy of Prophet (PBUH), it is for all the Prophets (PBUD).

The verses I have mentioned was to show you the intention of Allah regarding Our Messenger (PBUH) and I have ask see the Blasphemous Law in the LIGHT of these verses.

And I further suggest you to study the PDF link in one of Siasat post but I guess you neither use your brain to understand the Blasphmous Law nor you didn't write the link.

Due you this you compelled to share with you some more info about this matter.



In Surah Tawbah (9;64-66) Allah says

964.png


منافق اس بات سے ڈرتے ہیں کہ مسلمانوں پر کوئی ایسی سورة نازل ہو کہ انہیں بتا دے جو منافقوں کے دل میں ہے کہہ دو ہنسی کیے جاؤ جس بات سے تم ڈرتے ہو الله اسے ضرور ظاہر کر دے گا


965.png



اور اگر تم ان سے دریافت کرو تو کہیں گے کہ ہم یونہی بات چیت اور دل لگی کر رہے تھےکہہ دو کیا الله سے اور اس کی آیتوں سے اور اس کے رسول سے تم ہنسی کرتے تھے


966x.png



بہانے مت بناؤ ایمان لانے کے بعد تم کافر ہو گئے اگر ہم تم میں سے بعض کو معاف کر دیں گے تو بعض کو عذاب بھی دیں گے کیوں کہ وہ گناہ کرتے رہے ہیں​

This verse clearly states that mocking Allaah, His verses and His Messenger constitutes kufr, so that applies even more so to insulting. The verse also indicates that whoever belittles the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is also a kaafir, whether he was serious or joking.

With regard to the Sunnah, Abu Dawood (4362) narrated from Ali that a Jewish woman used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and say bad things about him, so a man strangled her until she died, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) ruled that no blood money was due in this case.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said in al-Saarim al-Maslool (1/162): This hadeeth is jayyid, and there is a corroborating report in the hadeeth of Ibn Abbaas which we will quote below.

This hadeeth clearly indicates that it was permissible to kill that woman because she used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

Abu Dawood (4361) narrated from Ibn Abbaas that a blind man had a freed concubine (umm walad) who used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and say bad things about him. He told her not to do that but she did not stop, and he rebuked her but she did not heed him. One night, when she started to say bad things about the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and insult him, he took a short sword or dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it and killed her. The following morning that was mentioned to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He called the people together and said, I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right over him that he should stand up. The blind man stood up and said, O Messenger of Allaah, I am the one who did it; she used to insult you and say bad things about you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not give up her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was kind to me. Last night she began to insult you and say bad things about you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her. Thereupon the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: Bear witness, there is no blood money due for her.

(Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood, 3655)

It seems that this woman was a kaafir, not a Muslim, for a Muslim could never do such an evil action. If she was a Muslim she would have become an apostate by this action, in which case it would not have been permissible for her master to keep her; in that case it would not have been good enough if he were to keep her and simply rebuke her.

Al-Nasaai narrated (4071) that Abu Barzah al-Aslami said: A man spoke harshly to Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq and I said, Shall I kill him? He rebuked me and said, That is not for anyone after the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) . (Saheeh al-Nasaai, 3795)

It may be noted from this that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had the right to kill whoever insulted him and spoke harshly to him, and that included both Muslims and kaafirs.

The second issue is: if a person who insulted the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) repents, should his repentance be accepted or not?

The scholars are agreed that if such a person repents sincerely and regrets what he has done, this repentance will benefit him on the Day of Resurrection and Allaah will forgive him.

But they differed as to whether his repentance should be accepted in this world and whether that means he is no longer subject to the sentence of execution.

Maalik and Ahmad were of the view that it should not be accepted, and that he should be killed even if he has repented.

They quoted as evidence the Sunnah and proper understanding of the ahaadeeth:

In the Sunnah, Abu Dawood (2683) narrated that Sad ibn Abi Waqqaas said: On the Day of the Conquest of Makkah, the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) granted safety to the people except for four men and two women, and he named them, and Ibn Abi Sarh As for Ibn Abi Sarh, he hid with Uthmaan ibn Affaan, and when the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) called the people to give their allegiance to him, he brought him to stand before the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He said, O Prophet of Allaah, accept the allegiance of Abd-Allaah. He raised his head and looked at him three times, refusing him, then he accepted his allegiance after the third time. Then he turned to his companions and said: Was there not among you any smart man who could have got up and killed this person when he saw me refusing to give him my hand and accept his allegiance? They said, We do not know what is in your heart, O Messenger of Allaah. Why did you not gesture to us with your eyes? He said, It is not befitting for a Prophet to betray a person with a gesture of his eyes.

(Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood, 2334)

This clearly indicates that in a case such as this apostate who had insulted the Prophet (S), it is not obligatory to accept his repentance, rather it is permissible to kill him even if he comes repentant.

Abd-Allaah ibn Sad was one of those who used to write down the Revelation, then he apostatized and claimed that he used to add whatever he wanted to the Revelation. This was a lie and a fabrication against the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and it was a kind of insult. Then he became Muslim again and was a good Muslim, may Allaah be pleased with him. Al-Saarim 115.

With regard to proper understanding of the ahaadeeth:

They said that insulting the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has to do with two rights, the right of Allaah and the right of a human being. With regard to the right of Allaah, this is obvious, because it is casting aspersions upon His Message, His Book and His Religion. As for the right of a human being, this is also obvious, because it is like trying to slander the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) by this insult. In a case which involves both the rights of Allaah and the rights of a human being, the rights of the human beings are not dropped when the person repents, as in the case of the punishment for banditry, because if the bandit has killed someone, that means that he must be executed and crucified. But if he repents before he is caught, then the right of Allaah over him, that he should be executed and crucified, no longer applies, but the rights of other humans with regard to qisaas (retaliatory punishment) still stand. The same applies in this case. If the one who insulted the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) repents, then the rights of Allaah no longer apply, but there remains the right of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), which still stand despite his repentance.

If it is said, Can we not forgive him, because during his lifetime the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forgave many of those who had insulted him and he did not execute them? The answer is:

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sometimes chose to forgive those who had insulted him, and sometimes he ordered that they should be executed, if that served a greater purpose. But now his forgiveness is impossible because he is dead, so the execution of the one who insults him remains the right of Allaah, His Messenger and the believers, and the one who deserves to be executed cannot be let off, so the punishment must be carried out.

Al-Saarim al-Maslool, 2/438

Insulting the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is one of the worst of forbidden actions, and it constitutes kufr and apostasy from Islam, according to scholarly consensus, whether done seriously or in jest. The one who does that is to be executed even if he repents and whether he is a Muslim or a kaafir. If he repents sincerely and regrets what he has done, this repentance will benefit him on the Day of Resurrection and Allaah will forgive him.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) wrote a valuable book on this matter, entitled al-Saarim al-Maslool ala Shaatim al-Rasool which every believer should read, especially in these times when a lot of hypocrites and heretics dare to insult the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) because they see that the Muslims are careless and feel little protective jealousy towards their religion and their Prophet, and they do not implement the shari punishment which would deter these people and their ilk from committing this act of blatant kufr.

And Allah knows best. May Allah send blessings and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad and all his family and companions