کیا یہ سترہ سالہ لڑکا جنسی درندہ ہے؟

Sohail Shuja

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
می ٹو کا مرکز وہی تہذیب ہے جسے اپنانے کی دعوت دی جا رہی ہے. گھوم پھر کر می ٹو تک پہنچنا ہے تو بہتر ہے رستہ اور منزل دونوں بدلی جائیں. شادی آسان اور کسی بھی قسم کے زنا پر سزا دی جائے

انصاری بھائی، خیر جو کچھ بھی ہے، یہ مسئلہ واقعی اب پاکستان میں سنگین نوعیت اختیار کرتا جا رہا ہے۔
بچوں کے ساتھ جنسی استحصال اور بعد از قتل کے واقعات۔

خیر، میں مغربی دنیا کے دوغلے معیار سے کم عقل اور علم رکھنے کی وجہ سے کم ہی متاثر ہوسکا ہوں۔
ان کے ہاں بارہ سالہ لڑکی ماں بن جائے تو اسے بہت خوشی سے اخباروں میں شائع کیا جاتا ہے۔
ہمارے یہاں اگر تیرہ یا چودہ سالہ لڑکی کا نکاح پڑھوا دیا جائے تو چائلڈ میرج اور سب اندر۔

ڈاکٹر صاحب کی بات بھی ٹھیک ہے کہ ہم نے بھی اپنے معاشرے میں بگاڑ اس مال و مطع کی حرص میں کیا ہے، کہ شادی کو نوکری سے مشروط کر دیا ہے۔

لیکن انصاری بھائی، ان واقعات کو دیکھیں تو یہ صرف شادی نہ ہونے کی وجہ سے نہیں ہو رہے۔ اس کے پیچھے اور بھی عوامل کارفرما ہیں۔

مثلاً ایک جگہہ ایک شخص کو بچوں کے ساتھ بدفعلی اور ان کی ویڈیوز بنانے کا انکشاف ہوا تو پتہ یہ چلا کہ ان ویڈیوز کے خریدار مغرب میں بیٹھے ہوئے ہیں۔ زینب کے کیس میں بھی یہی ہوا تھا۔

اگر زندہ رود کی بات مان لی جائے کہ جنسی آزادی نہ ہونے کی وجہ سے ایسے مسائل کھڑے ہو رہے ہیں تو پھر یہ سمجھ نہیں آتا کہ ان مغربی معاشروں میں ان ویڈیوز کے خریداروں کو کیا مسئلہ ہے؟ وہ لاکھوں روپے صرف ان ویڈیوز کے لیئے دیتے ہیں؟ ان کے دماغی حالات کہاں پہنچے ہوئے ہیں؟

اس خاص سلسلے میں، میں مودبانہ طور آپ سے تھوڑا سا اختلاف کرنا چاہوں گا۔ میرے خیال میں یہ واقعات بڑھنے کی وجہ یہ بھی ہے کہ ہم نے نام تو رکھ لیا اسلامی جمہوریہ پاکستان لیکن اسلامی نظام اور خاص کر اس سلسلے میں اسلامی سزاوٗں پر عمل پیرا نہ ہوئے۔

کچھ عرصہ پہلے بزرگ بتا رہے تھے کہ ضیاءالحق کے دور میں ایک بچے کے ساتھ ایسا واقع ہوا تھا تو مجرم کو سرِعام پھانسی لگادی گئی تھی اور اسکی لاش کو پتہ نہیں کتنے عرصے تک وہیں نشانِ عبرت کے طور لٹکایا گیا تھا۔ پھر دس سال تک دوبارہ کوئی ایسا واقع سننے میں نہیں آیا تھا۔

اسلام دراصل قدرت سے بہت قریب ہے۔ لوگوں کے اندر شیطانیت کو دبانے کے لیئے ایسی مثالیں نہیں ہونگی، تب تک ۔۔۔ معذرت اور افسوس کے ساتھ، مجھے ایسے جرائم میں کمی ہوتی نظر نہیں آتی۔
 

amber123

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
نا تو معاشرہ ابھی وجود میں آیا ہے اور نا اس کی جبلت۔ یہ صدیوں سے چلتا معاشرہ اپنے قواعد و ضوابط اور اقدار پر چلتا رہا ہے اور چلے گا۔ ورنہ قوم لوط اور جنگل کا نظام بن جاۓ گا جو خاندانی نظام کو جڑ سے اکھاڑ دے گا - اس کی تباہی قانون فطرت ہے۔
 

Citizen X

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
نیچے دی گئی ویڈیو دیکھئے اور ذرا بتایئے کیا یہ سترہ سالہ لڑکا کوئی درندہ ہے؟ حیوان ہے؟ بھیڑیا ہے؟ اس نے دس سالہ لڑکے کو ریپ کرنے کی کوشش میں قتل کردیا۔ ایسے ہی نوعمر لڑکوں کے ریپ اور قتل کیسز کے انبار لگے ہوئے ہیں۔ یوٹیوب پر کئی ملزم لڑکوں کے انٹرویوز موجود ہیں۔ ہمارے ہاں آئے روز بچوں کے ریپ اور قتل کے واقعات ہورہے ہیں، مگر ہماری قوم کا رویہ یہ ہے کہ ایسے ریپ یا قتل کرنے والوں کو درندہ، خونی، بھیڑیا قرار دے دیتے ہیں اور بری الذمہ ہوجاتے ہیں گویا کہ یہ کسی اور سیارے کی مخلوق تھے اور ان کا ہمارے معاشرے سے کوئی تعلق نہیں۔ بھئی یہ ہمارے ہی معاشرے کے لوگ ہیں، ہمیں اپنے معاشرے کے اس نقص کو تسلیم کرنا ہوگا۔ یہ ہمارے بیچ رہتے ہیں، یہ ہم ہی میں سے ہیں۔ اور ان کو اس نہج پر پہنچانے کے ذمہ دار بھی ہمارا معاشرہ ہی ہے۔۔۔

ہم نے معاشرے پر اس قدر جنسی گھٹن طاری کررکھی ہے کہ اب نوعمر لڑکے بھی اپنی جنسی ضرورت پوری کرنے کیلئے قتل کرنے لگ پڑے ہیں۔ آپ جتنوں کو مرضی پھانسی پرلٹکادیں، مگر یہ مسئلہ تب تک حل نہیں ہوگا جب تک مسئلے کی جڑ کو ایڈریس نہیں کیا جائے گا۔ مسئلے کی جڑ یہ ہے کہ آپ نے معاشرے کے لوگوں پر ان کی جبلی نفسانی ضرورت پوری کرنے پر پابندی لگا رکھی ہے۔ ایک نوعمر بالغ لڑکا یا نوعمر بالغ لڑکی جو ابھی سکول میں پڑھ رہے ہیں، ان کی جنسی ضرورت پوری کرنے کا ہمارے معاشرے میں کیا حل ہے؟ کیا ان دونوں کو سکول سے اٹھا کر بیاہ دیا جائے؟ جبکہ وہ ابھی کمانے کے قابل بھی نہیں، ان کی تعلیم کا کیا ہوگا، کیئریر، مستقبل کا کیا ہوگا۔؟۔

صرف ایک جائز جبلی ضرورت پوری کرنے کیلئے آپ نے معاشرے پر شادی جیسی پابندی لگا رکھی ہے۔۔ اس کا نتیجہ کیا نکل رہا ہے، کبھی اس پر غور کیا ہے۔۔؟ پی ٹی آئی ایم این اے شاندانہ گلزار نے کیپٹل ٹاک میں انکشاف کیا ہے کہ پاکستان میں ہونے والے 82 فیصد ریپ کیسز میں باپ، بھائی، ماموں، چچا یا سسر انوالو ہوتا ہے (نیچے ویڈیو لگا دی ہے)۔۔ اس نہج پر پہنچ گیا ہے یہ معاشرہ اور ہم اوپر سے بڑے پارسا بنے پھرتے ہیں۔ بھائی لوگ گھروں کے اندر ہی اپنی بہنوں ، بیٹیوں، بہوؤں پر ہاتھ صاف کرتے رہتے ہیں، آئے روز ایسے کیسز بھی سامنے آئے رہتے ہیں۔ پشاور کی پشتو گلوکارہ نازیہ اقبال کا کیس تو کافی مشہور ہوا تھا ، نازیہ اقبال نے اپنے بھائی کو رنگے ہاتھوں اپنی بیٹیوں کا ریپ کرتے ہوئے پکڑا تھا۔ یہ معاشرہ تو آپ لوگوں کو قبول ہے جس میں بھائی بہن کا ریپ کررہا ہے، ماموں بھانجیوں کا ریپ کررہا ہے، باپ بیٹیوں کا ریپ کررہا ہے، مگر لوگوں کو ایک جائز آزادی دینی قبول نہیں کہ ہر کوئی اپنی جنسی ضرورت اپنی من مرضی سے پوری کرسکے، بغیر کسی کو ہراساں کئے، بغیر کسی کو قتل کئے۔۔ جب تک جنسی ضرورت کو شادی سے الگ نہیں کیا جاتا، تب تک یہ معاشرہ ایسی غلاظت میں ہی دھنسا رہے گا بلکہ مزید دھنستا جائے گا۔۔ کچھ عرصہ قبل ایک رپورٹ منظر عام پر آئی تھی جس میں بتایا گیا تھا کہ پاکستانی لوگ زیادہ تر انسیسٹ پورن سرچ کرتے ہیں۔۔ اندازہ کیجئے آپ ۔۔ یعنی جو شخص بھائی کی بہن کے ساتھ سیکس کی ویڈیو سرچ کرکے دیکھتا ہے، اسکا ذہن کس قدر پراگندہ ہوچکا ہے اور کیا وہ اس کو عملی جامہ پہنانے کے بارے میں نہ سوچتا ہوگا۔۔

سچ پوچھیں تو یہ پورا معاشرہ ذہنی طور پر بیمار ہوچکا ہے۔
ہمارے لوگوں میں سوچنے سمجھنے کا رجحان نہیں ہے، معاشرے کی تربیت ہی کچھ ایسے کی جاتی ہے کہ غور و فکر کے رجحان کی حوصلہ شکنی کی جاتی ہے۔ زیادہ تر لوگوں نے زندگی بھر صرف وہی کتابیں پڑھی ہوتی ہیں جو سکول میں انہیں ماسٹر نے ڈنڈے سے پیٹ پیٹ کر پڑھائی ہوتی ہیں اور سکول سے باہر آنے کے بعد زندگی میں ان کا کسی کتاب سے واسطہ نہیں پڑا ہوتا۔۔ آپ سوشل میڈیا پر کوئی پوسٹ دیکھ لیں جس میں پسندیدہ کتاب کے بارے میں پوچھا گیا ہو، نوے فیصد لوگ قرآن مجید لکھ رہے ہوتے ہیں۔ جو بھی اپنی مذہبی کتاب کو فیورٹ کتاب کے طور پر لکھتا ہے اس کا سیدھا مطلب ہوتا ہے کہ اس نے زندگی میں کوئی کتاب نہیں پڑھ رکھی۔ تو جب معاشرے کی اکثریت کا یہ حال ہوگا تو جہلاء کا ہجوم ہی قوم کے نام پر وجود میں آئے گا نا، ایسے جہلاء نے کیا سوچنا ہے کہ ان کے مسائل کی جڑ کہاں پر ہے اور انہیں معاشرے میں آگے کس طرح نکلنا ہے۔




I don't like your politics but have to agree with you on this and my sentiments are very similar on this subject. This sexually repressive and ultra conservative society is the work of ill informed Mullahs and ancient tribal and pagan traditions that we refuse to give up, when in reality it really isn't the case.

Islam understands human nature and if you look back into our history, there have always exceptions allowed, whether it be marriage being made easy, multiple wives, escorts, temporary marriages etc etc it really never made a sexually repressed society.

But conservative mullahs along with tribal cultures of keeping women wrapped up in locked away in houses and turned our society into a sexually depraved society.
 

Sohail Shuja

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I don't like your politics but have to agree with you on this and my sentiments are very similar on this subject. This sexually repressive and ultra conservative society is the work of ill informed Mullahs and ancient tribal and pagan traditions that we refuse to give up, when in reality it really isn't the case.

Islam understands human nature and if you look back into our history, there have always exceptions allowed, whether it be marriage being made easy, multiple wives, escorts, temporary marriages etc etc it really never made a sexually repressed society.

But conservative mullahs along with tribal cultures of keeping women wrapped up in locked away in houses and turned our society into a sexually depraved society.
Well, child abuse and killing, really is a problem which sets anyone's heart on fire. But retrospectively, the solution proposed by the OP is nothing but capitalizing on the event to propagate his own design, like the PDM created the reasons for price hike and now are capitalizing on it politically.

I agree with you on this that back in the days of Islam, marriages were not that difficult. But hilariously enough, it is not the Mullah who speaks against early marriages. I am a personal witness to it, that I have seen every Mullah from every sect, invariably professing to get married early.

The problem is with our changing attitudes of the society, specially the culture. The more materialistic we are becoming, the more difficult it is becoming to get married. Every boy and girl is indoctrinated with the word "Financial Stability" as a prerequisite for marriage. The same phenomenon is found in the west, where the people, in the search of financial stability and personal independence have slipped into a system where family structure is totally destroyed. The results are high rates of juvenile and middle aged suicides.

Now, coming to the provisions and injunctions of Islam, we have been forced against early marriages in the name of child marriage laws, but hilariously, in the west, if a 13 or 15 years old becomes a mother ( Ref1, Ref2, Ref3) the same is accepted, rather somewhat cherished. Now, it means that you cannot marry before the age of consent but you can have children...... wow!

Secondly, you cannot take a concubine as slavery is out of practice and to be honest, Islam also does not profess taking people as slaves.

Thirdly, Temporary marriages (muttah) was allowed in the times of Muhammad (SAW) but the practice was prohibited by the second Caliph, Hazrat Umar Bin Khattab (RA), as people started to drift away from the institution of marriage. According to his point of view (which I have read), he was foreseeing a destruction in the family structure in the society by the misuse of this provision of Islam. As in early era of Islam, Muttah was permitted because there were not enough believing women available and the non-believers were not ready to marry Muslim men. However, this has become a controversial topic between the Shia and the Sunni clerics and then, while realizing the problems, the Salaf invented something known as "Nikah e Misyar".

However, looking at the matter with an unbiased view, I see that the problems have only arisen due to our changing social values, which puts more trust in materialism. Following the model of west, of free relationships will not render us any betterment as these problems of child abuse, killing and rape have not been minimized, let alone be wiped off from those societies too. Rather, it evolves in societal structures, where people are more prone to depression and ultimately taking their own lives.

Moreover, according to my personal observation, these problems are coming more in the limelight after the penetration of internet in our society. Back in the days, the incidences like these could be numbered on fingertips. There certainly is a relationship between the exposure to sexual content and such heinous crimes.

Last, but not the least, there also exists a gap in our legal system, which is also not shariah compliant. If the capital punishments of such crimes are made according to the injunctions of Islam, such incidences can be minimized by an exponential degree, I bet. No one would dare to force anyone into anything like this.
 
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Citizen X

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
I agree with you on this that back in the days of Islam, marriages were not that difficult. But hilariously enough, it is not the Mullah who speaks against early marriages.
I'm not talking about early marriages, I'm talking about easy marriages.


Every boy and girl is indoctrinated with the word "Financial Stability" as a prerequisite for marriage.
In today's world this is a must. Pakistan is filled with bad and failed marriages because parents marry off their "nikama, nikhatuu" son saying once he gets married he will become alright, which is almost never the case, in fact Pakistani parents have only one solution to all their male offspring lives, to get them married, whether he is a drug addict, useless bastard, plain criminal etc etc


Secondly, you cannot take a concubine as slavery is out of practice and to be honest, Islam also does not profess taking people as slaves.
I never used the word concubine, I was talking about consorts.


Thirdly, Temporary marriages (muttah) was allowed in the times of Muhammad (SAW) but the practice was prohibited by the second Caliph, Hazrat Umar Bin Khattab (RA)
This is my own view and I pretty much know 99% of people will disagree with me but Hazrat Umar r.a command was for his people of his time. He was neither a prophet nor a messenger and his commands and rulings cannot supersede that of the Quran or the Prophet s.a.w. Anyways at the end of the day people have come up with misyar which is the same thing just with a different name.

However, looking at the matter with an unbiased view, I see that the problems have only arisen due to our changing social values, which puts more trust in materialism. Following the model of west, of free relationships will not render us any betterment as these problems of child abuse, killing and rape have not been minimized, let alone be wiped off from those societies too. Rather, it evolves in societal structures, where people are more prone to depression and ultimately taking their own lives.
This is just the regular bias show by us. Do not take US as your example. It is a unique case. Europe probably has less cases per capita than us excluding Sweden and keep in mind majority of our cases go unreported so any numbers we have multiply them by 4 at least. Africa is mostly still a tribal society and it has pretty high numbers.


If the capital punishments of such crimes are made according to the injunctions of Islam, such incidences can be minimized by an exponential degree, I bet. No one would dare to force anyone into anything like this.
To make it clear I am the biggest supporter of capital punishment. But it fails to work as a deterrent, the numbers speak for themselves. For me its more about serving justice to the victim and their loved ones, hence Islam has a clause where the family can forgive the perpetrator of it wants to.

My whole point is Muslim society from the beginning has never been a sexually oppressive society, this is mostly a recent change and the countries that follow strictly to this new norm experiences these issues the most.
 

Citizen X

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
How can you make a marriage easy?
Get rid of all the fluff we have introduced. *A couple wants to get married, simply go to a registered Qazi or have him come over agree to and sign the marriage contract and have a small walima later on and be done with it.

Marriage has become a very expensive broadway production nowadays which goes on for days and usually end is debt.

*And for this also parents attitudes also have to change to cut all the toxic and emotional blackmail in all depts.
 

Sohail Shuja

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Get rid of all the fluff we have introduced. *A couple wants to get married, simply go to a registered Qazi or have him come over agree to and sign the marriage contract and have a small walima later on and be done with it.

Marriage has become a very expensive broadway production nowadays which goes on for days and usually end is debt.

*And for this also parents attitudes also have to change to cut all the toxic and emotional blackmail in all depts.
Isn't this all has something to do with "financial stability", referred earlier?
 

Sohail Shuja

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
??? What has a broadway production got to do with financial stability? In fact it makes no financial sense.
Actually, it all boils down to one thing i.e. materialism. If a person is "financially stable" then he is supposed to spend generously on the marriage. Isn't?

To tell you the truth, the problem of failed marriages in Pakistan, you referred to earlier is also a problem which convolves to materialism as well. The parents of the bride, while knowing that the boy is a drug addict or a nikamma are ready to wed their daughter to him in order to either relieve them of the expenses they are incurring on their daughter, or in the lust of getting related with a family of a higher social status, for some other material/social gains.

But, they will not wed their daughter to a simple person who is either studying or is struggling in his career. Moreover, in today's era, it is quite rare to see a person getting financially stable enough to afford a wife prior to his thirties. If everything goes well.

With the term financial stability, we mean that a person should be able to meet the day to day expenses or shall we take it as a person should be able to afford a lifestyle that is better than the one in which the bride used to live earlier?

Then, on the other hand, in the garb of this "financial stability", the materialism from the side of the groom unfolds in the form of demands of dowry. This results in problems for the parents of the girl to wed their daughter either too late (making her prone to go for haraam relationships) or wed her to some nikamma nikhattoo, who is available, without such demands. "Financial Stability" does not come cheap in our society, you have to pay a price for it as well.

Overall, you have identified the problem well that due to such social attitudes, we have made wedding a form of financial transaction rather than what it really is. We have shamefully undermined the importance of mental compatibility of the spouses and have given more importance to the material aspects of this institution. Even, the indoctrinated girls and boys then view their relationships from this lense, rendering them less emotional attachment, which later boils down to dissatisfaction in the marriages and then to complete failures.

Yet, this term "Financial Stability" needs a redefinition in this context.

Last but not the least, if the marriages are made easy, then early marriages will evolve as a consequence.
 
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Citizen X

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
If a person is "financially stable" then he is supposed to spend generously on the marriage. Isn't?
Disagree. Just because you can, doesn't mean you have to.


The parents of the bride, while knowing that the boy is a drug addict or a nikamma are ready to wed their daughter to him in order to either relieve them of the expenses they are incurring on their daughter
Thats because we still have a tribal mindset and after living with and having hindu ancestors for centuries still hold on to their beliefs that daughters are burdens, many cases even well off families spend lavishly on their sons while pending the bare minimum on daughters.

Then, on the other hand, in the garb of this "financial stability", the materialism from the side of the groom unfolds in the form of demands of dowry.
Again another hindu tradition which we haven't let go off. While in Islam its the bride who makes all the demands.

As for the rest of your post of course there has to be some form of financial stability. Even the Prophet s.a.w. did not marry off his daughter to Hazrat Ali r.a until he could come up with some funds which he did by selling his shield. Those days not much was needed, everyone was living in their own houses or just made their houses out of mud and straw and some kind of livelihood or the other. Today you need to make a certain amount just to pay your monthly bills which more or less sustain you. Only a selfish fool would accept responsibility of another person when he can barely support himself or a woman marry someone like that.

That also again brings into play that marriage isn't and shouldn't be the end of it all, just to satisfy some current physical desires and need you make decisions you will regret later for the rest of your life. Hence the other non permanent marriage and other options, which we available in older Muslim societies but are not anymore to us, while having more exposure to it.

We have turned ourselves into sexually repressed societies by following the wrong people and financial stability has nothing to do with. Financial stability only plays a part in marriage and my whole argument here is that marriage isn't the entirety or end of it all.

Early and easy marriages will still not solve this problem thats just a very small part of the solution, so you are debating about the wrong issue here.
 

Sohail Shuja

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Disagree. Just because you can, doesn't mean you have to.
Here, it is not about that either you can or cannot, it is about "you must" or the one who is doing it will get the bride. Actually, I am not talking about the moral standard on this, I am talking about the prevailing practices here.

Thats because we still have a tribal mindset and after living with and having hindu ancestors for centuries still hold on to their beliefs that daughters are burdens, many cases even well off families spend lavishly on their sons while pending the bare minimum on daughters.
Disagree here. It is not a consequence of a tribal mindset, it is a part of growing harsh realities and higher standards of living, plus the focus on material well being as a measure of success in life. Spending more on sons is only because of the material returns of the future, so it is an investment rather than spending. True tribal ethical values are different, if taken in their true form. It is the stress on materialism, which has given rise to such values in our society and they are there since long. Now they have been emphasized and normalized more than ever.
Again another hindu tradition which we haven't let go off. While in Islam its the bride who makes all the demands.
I am not talking about whether it is hindu or arabic. I am talking about the fact that it exists and is a problem in making marriages a more complex affair. Even in Islam, a wife is entitled to a dower and a reasonable living. Nothing more, nothing less. Dowry was also given by Prophet (SAW).

As for the rest of your post of course there has to be some form of financial stability. Even the Prophet s.a.w. did not marry off his daughter to Hazrat Ali r.a until he could come up with some funds which he did by selling his shield. Those days not much was needed, everyone was living in their own houses or just made their houses out of mud and straw and some kind of livelihood or the other. Today you need to make a certain amount just to pay your monthly bills which more or less sustain you.
Disagree. Even in the times of Prophet (SAW), people used to have a lavish life as well, like having slaves for their chores, owing land for their own produce, having businesses and gold and silver and horses and cattle. But the example set by Prophet (SAW) was to keep it at the bare minimum. Dowry was also given to Hazrat Fatimah (RA), but it was too quite at the mare minimum. If you study these traditions deeply, you will find that more stress was laid on compatibility of two persons, rather than material well being. Since no one can predict ones own or anyone's else's future. A person doing well today might fall into a crisis tomorrow or vice versa. What matters the most is not the material, but the emotional attachment and mental compatibility.

Only a selfish fool would accept responsibility of another person when he can barely support himself or a woman marry someone like that.
Quite the otherwise I guess, only a selfish person would marry a person for paying her bills and livelihood.

That also again brings into play that marriage isn't and shouldn't be the end of it all, just to satisfy some current physical desires and need you make decisions you will regret later for the rest of your life. Hence the other non permanent marriage and other options, which we available in older Muslim societies but are not anymore to us, while having more exposure to it.
Again, a paradox. So, you mean to say that in order to satisfy a physical desire, you should go for temporary marriages? it also inflicts a moral question here of getting married to a person by not taking responsibility but only to quench your physical thirst.

The banning of temporary marriages has somewhat more to it than what meets the eye. You are not considering the eventuality of a marriage, i.e. to raise a healthy family. By family, I mean the offsprings.

What do you infer when Allah (SWT) allows divorce, but with displeasure?
What do you reckon from the history that neither the Prophet (SAW) himself, nor his daughter (RA) ever entered into something as a temporary marriage?

What do you deduce from the fact that alcohol was not forbidden right away, but after ten years of revelation? and the Prophet (SAW) never touched it while it was allowed?


We have turned ourselves into sexually repressed societies by following the wrong people and financial stability has nothing to do with. Financial stability only plays a part in marriage and my whole argument here is that marriage isn't the entirety or end of it all.
Here I agree with you. By following the values of the west, which places more stress on materialism and independence (or irresponsibility) and less on emotional attachment as compared to physical attraction and our borrowed norms from the Hindu culture makes marriage something more about money than about affection.

The problem is further compounded by instilling more frustration through media, backed up by loose laws and their implementation.


Early and easy marriages will still not solve this problem thats just a very small part of the solution, so you are debating about the wrong issue here.
No, in the context of the issues raised by the OP that we should allow the school going children reaching puberty to have sexual relations. I think my argument is pertinent. Though, not particularly to the matter under discussion with your kind self.

I am not taking the early marriages as a cause, rather an effect which will evolve as a consequence of making marriages easy.
 
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Citizen X

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Here, it is not about that either you can or cannot, it is about "you must" or the one who is doing it will get the bride. Actually, I am not talking about the moral standard on this, I am talking about the prevailing practices here.
I dunno maybe it is, I don't think how big the wedding is a crucial criteria fro giving away your daughters hand, but I don't dismiss it knowing our people.

Disagree here. It is not a consequence of a tribal mindset, it is a part of growing harsh realities and higher standards of living, plus the focus on material well being as a measure of success in life. Spending more on sons is only because of the material returns of the future, so it is an investment rather than spending. True tribal ethical values are different, if taken in their true form. It is the stress on materialism, which has given rise to such values in our society and they are there since long. Now they have been emphasized and normalized more than ever.
No I was talking about daughters being a burden mindset even for families who have no financial distress.


Disagree.
Agree to disagree


Quite the otherwise I guess, only a selfish person would marry a person for paying her bills and livelihood.
We are talking about Pakistan here, how many women go out and make a living for themselves and are able to live independently? Unfortunately in our society women are made dependent on men, this is changing but at a snails pace and women who indecently are carving a way for themselves still have to face 100 time more hurdles, discrimination and taunts from society then men



So, you mean to say that in order to satisfy a physical desire, you should go for temporary marriages?
Yes.

it also inflicts a moral question here of getting married to a person by not taking responsibility but only to quench your physical thirst.
And the alternative being making a haste decision and getting into a dead end traditional marriage or worse, much worse.

The banning of temporary marriages has somewhat more to it than what meets the eye. You are not considering the eventuality of a marriage,

Temp marriage is just a stop gap measure basically a one night, week, month stand until such a time one is able get into a traditional marriage contract, settle down and raise a family. Rather than running amok and raping children.

OP that we should allow the school going children reaching puberty to have sexual relations.
I don't think anybody is saying that, why do we have to take the worst of every example? Raise your children well and you won't have these issues with 12 and 13yr olds. Not everyone in the west is getting pregnant at 13!
 

Sohail Shuja

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I dunno maybe it is, I don't think how big the wedding is a crucial criteria fro giving away your daughters hand, but I don't dismiss it knowing our people.
But actually this is the main problem impeding the frequency of marriages in our society and consequently we are faced with problems of frustration.

In the name of "Financial Stability", we have done more harm than good to the society.


No I was talking about daughters being a burden mindset even for families who have no financial distress.
Point taken. But with an agreement that such practices are also on the part of the parents of the bride, who throw their daughters out like anything and then they have a failed marriage.

Agree to disagree
Cheers!

We are talking about Pakistan here, how many women go out and make a living for themselves and are able to live independently? Unfortunately in our society women are made dependent on men, this is changing but at a snails pace and women who indecently are carving a way for themselves still have to face 100 time more hurdles, discrimination and taunts from society then men
I agree with the content that not many of the women go out to make a living. That is why it is made compulsory on the man to bear the expenses of the wife.

Yet again, why do we take this approach dogmatically? Hazrat Khadija (RA) was a well earning person, but married Prophet (SAW). Can we learn something out of it, in the context of modern times?


Maybe when I ask this question 25 years from now, your answer will be different, while having your own daughter.

This practice objectifies and is more degrading to women and children. I will discuss later on this below.


And the alternative being making a haste decision and getting into a dead end traditional marriage or worse, much worse.
No marriage is a dead end. The wife always has the option of Khula and the Husband has the option of Divorce. However, emphasis is provided on keeping together and let the tide of the time pass and not being impulsive about such decisions.

Temp marriage is just a stop gap measure basically a one night, week, month stand until such a time one is able get into a traditional marriage contract, settle down and raise a family. Rather than running amok and raping children.
As I said above, this practice is like objectifying women as a sexual object and is more degrading to the children. Now let us dissect it in a bit more detail.

Suppose a girl is in a temporary marriage for two years. Then someone else comes and again goes into a temporary marriage for two years. The girl, eventually turns into a woman and no one with a good standing agrees to marry her. Then, by the age of 35 to 40, she will be left as a lonesome person. Would anyone like to have this happen to their daughter/sister?


What will be the fate of the children born out of such wedlock? you can prescribe the contraceptives, but they fail. There is a score of girls in the west getting pregnant before 16 and getting dropped out of school, being a single mom and eventually eroding their own lives because the biological fathers are not ready to take the responsibility. They are rarely able to reach their optimum potential.

Then comes the problem of parenting of these children. It is obvious that in the form of temporary marriage, a child is destined to lose one of the two parents at the end. Secondly, the problem is further compounded when the custodial parent remarries. The step parents do not have that affection towards the child. Moreover, in case of a child living with his/her mother, the problem is that the child from the first husband is the responsibility of his/her biological father to be maintained financially. Now if the step father is not of the same social/financial status, then in one household, the children from the second husband will be having a different lifestyle than the one from the former. Can you imagine the distress on the child and the mother as well? It is magnanimous.

Then comes the problem of human psychology. If you are conditioning the minds of your young ones to be focused on physical pleasure, then it will remain so and has a tendency to further grown into a mania.

Then, by sheer coincidence, who is responsible to maintain a girl in a temporary marriage? The boy needs to have at least that much money with him, and if he has it, then why not he marries her?

By advocating the temporary marriage, people are mostly focused on one aspect of satisfaction of physical desire, whereas all the rest of the parameters are grossly miscalculated. A stable marriage is necessary to raise a sane society.

Temporary marriages were allowed in circumstances when there were not enough free believing women available to Muslims and the non believers were not ready to marry them. However, one thing in the context of temporary marriage is to be noticed that the child born out of such a wedlock was the responsibility of the biological father.

So rather than saying that if you cannot afford a wife, you should not marry, I must say that if you cannot afford a child and give him not only your money, but your affection and time, then you should not even think of a temporary marriage as well. You are no better than a wild animal who is driven by instincts rather than conscience.


I don't think anybody is saying that, why do we have to take the worst of every example? Raise your children well and you won't have these issues with 12 and 13yr olds. Not everyone in the west is getting pregnant at 13!
Partially agree that having raised your children well is one way to escape this problem. But raising children well is easier said than done. Another supplement can be the education through which you should make your child aware that it is not okay if someone is trying to get into your pants. I think we should include the sexual education in our syllabus.

Teach the younger children how to escape any exploitation and the elder ones to regulate their desires and know the proper ways to do it and if someone is exploited then they should know the proper way to find an appropriate remedy for it. Yet, this will also not solve the problem completely if we do not nib the evil in the bud.... i.e. introduce Islamic capital punishments and a working law enforcement system. We have to tackle the problem from the offenders side rather than just focusing on the victims side to escape it.
 

asif65

MPA (400+ posts)
یہ فکری بیوائیں پہلے ایک ن لیگ کے فورم پر بھی گند پھیلاتی پھرتی تھیں ۔۔۔ اس فورم کی ناکامی کے بعد اب یہاں پر ڈیرہ جما لیا ہے ۔۔۔ ان فکری بیوائیوں کی چھتراول کچھ عرصے پہلے ایسے ہوئی تھی ۔۔۔۔

مجھے تو فکری بیوائیوں کی سمجھ نہیں اتی ۔۔۔ ایک طرف اسلام ۔ پاکستان اور پاکستانیوں پر بکواس کرتی ہیں اور دوسری طرف اسلام پاکستان اور پاکستانیوں کی باتیں بھی کرتی ہیں ۔۔۔

یار اگر تم اسلام اور پاکستان کو نہیں مانتے تو تمھیں چوبیس گھنٹے ان کی فکر کیوں کھائے رہتی ہے؟۔

ان کی نائکہ کا تو ہوش ٹھکانے ا گیا ہے اور اس نے ہار مان لی اور ھتیار ڈال دیے اور اس نے یہ بھی مان لیا ہے کہ ان کی تبلیغ ناکام ہو گئی ہے ۔۔

اور مجھے یہ بھی اندازہ ہے کہ آپ کہ عموماً توقعات ہمیشہ دُکھ ہی دیتی ہیں۔۔۔۔۔ لہٰذا کیوں پاکستان اور پاکستانیوں کے حوالے اتنی زیادہ توقعات باندھتے ہو کہ پاکستان ایسا ہوجائے ویسا ہوجائے یا پاکستانی یہ کرلیں وہ کرلیں۔۔۔۔۔

یہ اُن(پاکستانیوں) کے مسائل ہیں اُنہیں ہی حل کرنے دیں۔۔۔۔۔ ہم تو ویسے بھی اب ایک درجہ باہر کے لوگ ہیں۔۔۔۔

میرے خیال میں یہ صرف تبلیغ کا کیڑا ہے جو کاٹتا ہے۔۔۔۔۔۔

ابھی میری یہ ساری باتیں نہیں مانیں گے۔۔۔۔۔ ایسا کریں میری اِس تحریر کو کہیں محفوظ کر کے رکھ لیجئے گا اور کچھ سالوں بعد واپس دیکھیے گا۔۔۔۔۔ اُمید ہے اُس وقت تک آپ کو یہ بات سمجھ آجائے گی۔۔۔

ان کی نائکہ نے قرار و شرازی و زندہ رود کے لیے اتنا بڑا نائکہ نامہ (چول نامہ ) بھی لکھ دیا ۔۔۔۔۔

ان سیف کو تو ان کی نائکہ خاطر میں ہی نہیں لاتی کیونکہ اس کی باتوں کا کوئی سر پیر ہی نہیں ہوتا۔۔۔بس ہر جگہ اپنی ٹانگ اڑانی ہوتی ہے۔۔۔

ان کی نائکہ یہ بھی کہہ رہی ہے کہ مَینوں بخش دو۔ ۔۔۔ لیکن یہ ہیں کہ جان ہی نہیں چھوڑتے۔۔۔

میرے بھائی تبلیغ کے لیے جان اور مال کی قربانی دینی ہوتی ہے اور سالوں سال رگڑیں کھانی پڑتی ہیں ۔۔۔ جو تم لوگوں کے بس کا کام نہیں ۔۔

مگر نہیں، میرے کرنٹ اسٹیٹ آف مائنڈ کے حساب سے مَیں یہ قربانیاں نہیں دینا چاہتا۔۔۔۔۔ لہٰذا جب کسی قسم کی قربانیاں بھی نہیں دینا چاہتا تو کیسے اِس جنگِ عظیم میں شرکت کرسکتا ہوں اور پھر کیسے روز روز کا ماتم کروں۔

تم لوگ شرابیں پیو ۔۔۔اور ٹن ہو کرگوریوں کو تاڑو۔۔۔ اور سالوں پرانے گیت سنو۔۔۔۔

اور جب ہوش ائے تو دھڑیں مار مار کر رو کہ ہم لٹ گئے ہم تباہ ہو گئے ۔۔۔ہم محبت میں ناکام ہو گئے ۔۔۔ ہم نے ساری زندگی ضائع کر دی۔۔۔۔۔

 

Citizen X

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
But actually this is the main problem impeding the frequency of marriages in our society and consequently we are faced with problems of frustration.
Could be, like I said my knowledge is lacking here and take your word for it


Maybe when I ask this question 25 years from now, your answer will be different, while having your own daughter.
I already have a daughter and a step daughter and my opinion remain unchanged.


No marriage is a dead end.
But why get into something you know is doomed from the beginning.


But with an agreement that such practices are also on the part of the parents of the bride, who throw their daughters out like anything and then they have a failed marriage.
That is the stupidity and problem of our society who still follow tribalistic pagan and hindu rituals, thank god at we follow the bare minimum of Islam and not burn the widow with the dead husband.


Suppose a girl is in a temporary marriage for two years. Then someone else comes and again goes into a temporary marriage for two years. The girl, eventually turns into a woman and no one with a good standing agrees to marry her. Then, by the age of 35 to 40, she will be left as a lonesome person. Would anyone like to have this happen to their daughter/sister?
This is again a problem our hypocrite society described earlier.

What will be the fate of the children born out of such wedlock?
It would be just like any other child, the problems you mention are once again because of the aforementioned.


There is a score of girls in the west getting pregnant before 16 and getting dropped out of school
And there are scores of girls being pulled out of school and being forcefully married off against their will.


Then comes the problem of parenting of these children.

1000s of single moms and dads in Pakistan are raising their children right now. This again is the problem with society, widows today face the same issue, I've heard cases of women who got widowed in their late teens and early 20s and on one is willing
The step parents do not have that affection towards the child. Moreover, in case of a child living with his/her mother, the problem is that the child from the first husband is the responsibility of his/her biological father to be maintained financially. Now if the step father is not of the same social/financial status, then in one household, the children from the second husband will be having a different lifestyle than the one from the former. Can you imagine the distress on the child and the mother as well?
This is just a lot of hypothetical pie in the sky, what if this what if that. You think these issues don't exist in Pakistan today for women who were widowed, divorced and were able to get married again?


By advocating the temporary marriage, people are mostly focused on one aspect of satisfaction of physical desire, whereas all the rest of the parameters are grossly miscalculated. A stable marriage is necessary to raise a sane society.
This is just your assumption that then no one will ever get married then. Even in places there are no such restrictions people are still getting married. And like it or not their society is much saner than ours

Temporary marriages were allowed in circumstances when there were not enough free believing women available to Muslims and the non believers were not ready to marry them.
I already told you, I don't believe in this even though 99% of the people will disagree with me.


Partially agree that having raised your children well is one way to escape this problem. But raising children well is easier said than done. Another supplement can be the education through which you should make your child aware that it is not okay if someone is trying to get into your pants. I think we should include the sexual education in our syllabus.

Teach the younger children how to escape any exploitation and the elder ones to regulate their desires and know the proper ways to do it and if someone is exploited then they should know the proper way to find an appropriate remedy for it.
All of this is part of raising your children well, if you can't then you have failed. You can't just push off your responsibility of raising your children to the state.


Yet, this will also not solve the problem completely if we do not nib the evil in the bud.... i.e. introduce Islamic capital punishments and a working law enforcement system.
Already said, it does not act as a deterrent and the numbers speak for themselves.


We have to tackle the problem from the offenders side rather than just focusing on the victims side to escape it.
Your whole view of this situation is wrong, no one is taking sides here, the base of the discussion is to eradicate the problem at the root which is not to create a environment where you have huge population of sexually frustrated people.

In a poor country with starving people, crimes like theft and robberies are going to be more, compared to a well off country. So what is going to be more effective, increasing jail sentences and more policing or elevating the country out of poverty?





And also is not a problem in the west. Raising a child as a single parent can be tough but not impossible, 1000s are doing this Pakistan too right now.
 

atensari

President (40k+ posts)
انصاری بھائی، خیر جو کچھ بھی ہے، یہ مسئلہ واقعی اب پاکستان میں سنگین نوعیت اختیار کرتا جا رہا ہے۔
بچوں کے ساتھ جنسی استحصال اور بعد از قتل کے واقعات۔

خیر، میں مغربی دنیا کے دوغلے معیار سے کم عقل اور علم رکھنے کی وجہ سے کم ہی متاثر ہوسکا ہوں۔
ان کے ہاں بارہ سالہ لڑکی ماں بن جائے تو اسے بہت خوشی سے اخباروں میں شائع کیا جاتا ہے۔
ہمارے یہاں اگر تیرہ یا چودہ سالہ لڑکی کا نکاح پڑھوا دیا جائے تو چائلڈ میرج اور سب اندر۔

ڈاکٹر صاحب کی بات بھی ٹھیک ہے کہ ہم نے بھی اپنے معاشرے میں بگاڑ اس مال و مطع کی حرص میں کیا ہے، کہ شادی کو نوکری سے مشروط کر دیا ہے۔

لیکن انصاری بھائی، ان واقعات کو دیکھیں تو یہ صرف شادی نہ ہونے کی وجہ سے نہیں ہو رہے۔ اس کے پیچھے اور بھی عوامل کارفرما ہیں۔

مثلاً ایک جگہہ ایک شخص کو بچوں کے ساتھ بدفعلی اور ان کی ویڈیوز بنانے کا انکشاف ہوا تو پتہ یہ چلا کہ ان ویڈیوز کے خریدار مغرب میں بیٹھے ہوئے ہیں۔ زینب کے کیس میں بھی یہی ہوا تھا۔

اگر زندہ رود کی بات مان لی جائے کہ جنسی آزادی نہ ہونے کی وجہ سے ایسے مسائل کھڑے ہو رہے ہیں تو پھر یہ سمجھ نہیں آتا کہ ان مغربی معاشروں میں ان ویڈیوز کے خریداروں کو کیا مسئلہ ہے؟ وہ لاکھوں روپے صرف ان ویڈیوز کے لیئے دیتے ہیں؟ ان کے دماغی حالات کہاں پہنچے ہوئے ہیں؟

اس خاص سلسلے میں، میں مودبانہ طور آپ سے تھوڑا سا اختلاف کرنا چاہوں گا۔ میرے خیال میں یہ واقعات بڑھنے کی وجہ یہ بھی ہے کہ ہم نے نام تو رکھ لیا اسلامی جمہوریہ پاکستان لیکن اسلامی نظام اور خاص کر اس سلسلے میں اسلامی سزاوٗں پر عمل پیرا نہ ہوئے۔

کچھ عرصہ پہلے بزرگ بتا رہے تھے کہ ضیاءالحق کے دور میں ایک بچے کے ساتھ ایسا واقع ہوا تھا تو مجرم کو سرِعام پھانسی لگادی گئی تھی اور اسکی لاش کو پتہ نہیں کتنے عرصے تک وہیں نشانِ عبرت کے طور لٹکایا گیا تھا۔ پھر دس سال تک دوبارہ کوئی ایسا واقع سننے میں نہیں آیا تھا۔

اسلام دراصل قدرت سے بہت قریب ہے۔ لوگوں کے اندر شیطانیت کو دبانے کے لیئے ایسی مثالیں نہیں ہونگی، تب تک ۔۔۔ معذرت اور افسوس کے ساتھ، مجھے ایسے جرائم میں کمی ہوتی نظر نہیں آتی۔
ایک کی فرد کی جانب سے جرائم کا تسلسل ذہنی خلل یا معاشی محرک ہو سکتا ہے. اور ان کا علاج بھی مختلف طریقے سے ہو گا

دوسری طرف ایک عمومی صورتحال ہے جس کا ایک علاج نکاح میں آسانی ہے. مرض کی درست تشخیص کرکے غلط علاج بتانے والے رضا کار یا تنخواہ دار اس منصوبے کا حصہ ہیں جس کا مقصد زنا کو آسان بنانا ہے
Zinda_Rood

 

Sohail Shuja

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I already have a daughter and a step daughter and my opinion remain unchanged.
Well, I am not referring to the exceptions here, talking about the issue generally. I do not mean to imply that you discriminate between your daughters. My brother also has a family like you.

However, I still maintain my view that when your daughter will be of that age, you will learn many other things besides this and your answer is likely to be changed on this.


But why get into something you know is doomed from the beginning.
Actually, the problem is not the marriage, its the way we arrange our marriages, based on materialism and/or just to throw off our child under social pressure.

This problem is not going to be wiped off by the way of temporary marriages. The crooks will still find ways to blackmail the other party. A failed marriage is a consequence of a bad decision, a temporary marriage is not the solution when you always have a way to get out of an abusive relation by means of divorce.


That is the stupidity and problem of our society who still follow tribalistic pagan and hindu rituals, thank god at we follow the bare minimum of Islam and not burn the widow with the dead husband.
Couldn't agree anymore
It would be just like any other child, the problems you mention are once again because of the aforementioned.
Keeping in view the general social psychology, I tend to differ here. Suppose a woman has been married temporarily with three different men and has a child from each of them. Imagine her life, when she has to arrange for the meetings of the children and getting their subsistence allowance from them. And then think of those three children living with different standards under the same roof and with the same mother. Moreover, none of them has the vigilance of a father, until they turn to be adults. The problems are quite complex and cannot just be brushed away like this. Think of it from the perspective of the child.

And there are scores of girls being pulled out of school and being forcefully married off against their will.
This is not the answer to my question. We have already discussed of our present social attitudes towards marriage and this being one of them.

Actually, the solution of temporary marriage is not going to solve this issue either. You let a school going child be pregnant through a temporary marriage.... then... the consequences???


1000s of single moms and dads in Pakistan are raising their children right now. This again is the problem with society, widows today face the same issue, I've heard cases of women who got widowed in their late teens and early 20s and on one is willing
Every psychologist from every corner of the earth will tell you that it is better to have both of the parents together for the child, provided their relationship is not abusive.

Secondly, I think you were trying to write that no one is willing to marry those who got widowed or divorced in their late teens or early twenties. I think you have spilled the bean yourself here. You know our social attitude towards women and children (excluding the exceptions like yours), so you think that if someone knows that a girl had been temporarily married with someone will eventually be ready to take her for the rest of her life with him? The probabilities are sleek here. Rather she will become an object of sexuality only, and people will only be interested in getting her into temporary marriages and that too until she is young and attractive.


This is just a lot of hypothetical pie in the sky, what if this what if that. You think these issues don't exist in Pakistan today for women who were widowed, divorced and were able to get married again?

This is just your assumption that then no one will ever get married then. Even in places there are no such restrictions people are still getting married. And like it or not their society is much saner than ours
Compare both of your statements above. You know such problems exist in our society even for the widows, for whom people know that it was not their fault at all. But in the succeeding paragraph, you are negating your own statement, that this is just my assumption that people will not get married if temporary marriages are allowed.

Sir, I have been to some of the places out of Pakistan, for quite some time and not for recreational visits, I have actually lived there. Do you want me to enlist all what is going wrong there? I have seen people, known them and known their lives. I usually do not state this fact anywhere on the forum, this is my first time. That too is because you are a very good debater.

Do you want me to tell you what starts happening in the city on the Friday and Saturday evenings? Don't you know people who are left by their spouses due to midlife crisis and then some of them eventually commit suicide? don't you know the reality behind the juvenile suicides there? OK you may not see all this hangama like in our society over there, but under those sheets of calm in the streets, there is a lot going inside the homes and inside the lives of the people.


I already told you, I don't believe in this even though 99% of the people will disagree with me.
Its your choice and I respect your right to choose for yourself whatever you like. We are just having a debate on the topic, that is it. Nothing more, nothing less.
All of this is part of raising your children well, if you can't then you have failed. You can't just push off your responsibility of raising your children to the state.
Agree. But if anyone is entering into a temporary marriage agreement, he/she is already creating circumstances for the child that are not conducive. No one can play a father's role and no one can play a mother's role as well, if we speak of it generally.

Already said, it does not act as a deterrent and the numbers speak for themselves.
There has never been a true implementation of such injunctions in Pakistan. Compare the statistics with the areas in Mid East, where such laws prevail.

Your whole view of this situation is wrong, no one is taking sides here, the base of the discussion is to eradicate the problem at the root which is not to create a environment where you have huge population of sexually frustrated people.
I think I have been unable to convey my point of view clearly over here. Since these crimes are prevalent in the west as well, where such freedom is available since decades, therefore, my assumption goes that only the sexual freedom does not yield to it. Rather, due to abundance, people loose interest in the normal ways of doing it and then start to look at something else..... this is usually called the kink or specifically called the perversions. I don't want to enlist them over here. I think this hint is enough. West is the greatest buyer of the child pornography and pedophilia is a big problem over there. Russians are famous for making rape porn where they kill the victim in the end. The buyers of such porn are in the west. Consider their state of mind while having such sexual freedom in their society.

Basic human psychology works here. If you are hungry, the first plate will taste the best. Second, will taste a bit lesser..... by fourth or fifth... you will turn it away or may be throw it. Likewise, when people get something too easily, they lose interest in it and then start looking for something more enthralling. This leads to the diversions.... or paraphilias

The only reason I see that the numbers over there are lesser than they should be is because of their working legal and law enforcement system.


In a poor country with starving people, crimes like theft and robberies are going to be more, compared to a well off country. So what is going to be more effective, increasing jail sentences and more policing or elevating the country out of poverty?
I have not negated the idea of making marriages easier.
However, as I see that these problems can not only be solved by making marriages easy. I think you have not followed such stories recently in Pakistan of child abuse.
Many of the abusers were already married and were doing it to make some moola



Then there are incidences where such crimes are committed due to rivalry and other matters. Only sexual deprivation, according to your theory of shortage of sexual freedom would yield in more incidences of consensual sex out of marriage.But these are crimes we are talking of. Killing and rape have different dynamics. The problem is more complex than what we think of. It will become a very long debate if I start discussing it in terms of psychology and criminology. The crux is that we have to eradicate this evil from both ends. Sexual frustration can be one cause of it, but a lack of fear of committing such a crime is more at play here. Specially if we see people involved in it who could have easily committed marriage instead.

And also is not a problem in the west. Raising a child as a single parent can be tough but not impossible, 1000s are doing this Pakistan too right now.
Tough.... means children are susceptible. That proves my point. I do not refer to some exceptional success stories. If we are talking about a general provision, then we have to discuss its merits and demerits in general terms as well.
 
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Sohail Shuja

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
ایک کی فرد کی جانب سے جرائم کا تسلسل ذہنی خلل یا معاشی محرک ہو سکتا ہے. اور ان کا علاج بھی مختلف طریقے سے ہو گا

دوسری طرف ایک عمومی صورتحال ہے جس کا ایک علاج نکاح میں آسانی ہے. مرض کی درست تشخیص کرکے غلط علاج بتانے والے رضا کار یا تنخواہ دار اس منصوبے کا حصہ ہیں جس کا مقصد زنا کو آسان بنانا ہے
Zinda_Rood

انصاری بھائی، آپ کی پہلی بات سے سو فیصد اتفاق کہ کچھ اجرت پیشہ ایک مخصوص ایجنڈے پر لگے ہوئے ہیں اور جو علاج وہ بتا رہے ہیں وہ علاج نہیں، ایک موذی مرض ہے جس میں مغرب کی دنیا کو میں نے اپنی آنکھوں سے سڑتے ہوئے دیکھا ہے۔

لیکن آپ کی دوسری بات سے آدھا اتّفاق ہے۔ بھائی دراصل صرف نکاح سے یہ مسئلہ حل ہونے والا ہوتا تو نکاح نہ ہونے کی صورت میں لوگ شائد زنا باالرّضا میں ملوّث ہوتے یا پھر قحبہ خانوں کی آبادی میں اضافہ ہوتا۔

یہ ریپ اور قتل، بھائی یہ انسانی دماغ کے خلل کا ایک اور درجہ ہے۔


آپ بات سمجھنے کی کوشش کیجیئے، کہ ہمارے یہاں اس جرم کی صحیح سزا نہ ہونے اور ایک ڈھیلے اور بکاوٗ انصافی نظام کی وجہ سے یہ حرکتیں بہت زیادہ ہو رہی ہیں۔ لوگوں کو خوف ہی نہیں ہے۔ پکڑے جائیں گے بھی تو چھوٹ جائیں گے نہیں تو چار پانچ سال کی قید۔
 

Citizen X

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
I still maintain my view that when your daughter will be of that age, you will learn many other things besides this and your answer is likely to be changed on this.
One of them is already of "that" age and still my answer remains unchanged.


Actually, the problem is not the marriage, its the way we arrange our marriages, based on materialism and/or just to throw off our child under social pressure.
Doesn't matter if you catch your ear from the right or the left, its the same thing. A doomed marriage is a doomed marriage.


Keeping in view the general social psychology, I tend to differ here. Suppose a woman has been married temporarily with three different men and has a child from each of them. Imagine her life, when she has to arrange for the meetings of the children and getting their subsistence allowance from them. And then think of those three children living with different standards under the same roof and with the same mother. Moreover, none of them has the vigilance of a father, until they turn to be adults. The problems are quite complex and cannot just be brushed away like this. Think of it from the perspective of the child.
Again too much what if this and what if that. There are more bizzare cases in the world. Men having children from half a dozen women and vice versa,


Every psychologist from every corner of the earth will tell you that it is better to have both of the parents together for the child, provided their relationship is not abusive.
You answered yourself there, it the same if the parents really don't have a good relationship with each and abusive relation scar children for life. A single parent home is better than this kind of home.


Secondly, I think you were trying to write that no one is willing to marry those who got widowed or divorced in their late teens or early twenties. I think you have spilled the bean yourself here. You know our social attitude towards women and children (excluding the exceptions like yours),
This is part of my argument, this needs to change.


You know such problems exist in our society even for the widows, for whom people know that it was not their fault at all.
Again thats what needs to change.


Sir, I have been to some of the places out of Pakistan, for quite some time and not for recreational visits, I have actually lived there. Do you want me to enlist all what is going wrong there? I have seen people, known them and known their lives.
I live outside of Pakistan and have spent most of my life outside so there really isn't anything you can tell me that I already don't know.

Do you want me to tell you what starts happening in the city on the Friday and Saturday evenings? Don't you know people who are left by their spouses due to midlife crisis and then some of them eventually commit suicide? don't you know the reality behind the juvenile suicides there? OK you may not see all this hangama like in our society over there, but under those sheets of calm in the streets, there is a lot going inside the homes and inside the lives of the people.
Thats the same story everywhere in the world, ever one has their own personal story regardless of what it looks from the outisde. And once again you like to pick the extreme examples and portray them as normal, you should stop doing that. It's like when the west says all Muslims are terrorists.

Agree. But if anyone is entering into a temporary marriage agreement, he/she is already creating circumstances for the child that are not conducive.
So you are going to tell your son to fast every time he has natural urges until he's in his late 20s or early 30s and get married! Getting full blown married for that is I think one of the worst things anyone can do.

Its your choice and I respect your right to chose for yourself whatever you like. We are just having a debate on the topic, that is it. Nothing more, nothing less.
In my God given logic no one can declare something halal or haram regardless of who he is when Allah s.w.t has already made it clear what is and what isn't. A ruler might enact some rules but they are for that time and those people who they rule over, not to be followed universally by all people as a law till the end of time. But I do respect that you respect my POV.

There has never been a true implementation of such injunctions in Pakistan. Compare the statistics with the areas in Mid East, where such laws prevail.
SO no murders and rape take place in Saudia, US, Iran and China? The countries which carry out the highest number of capital punishment year after year. Like I said its for justice for the victim and victims family more than anything else.
 
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