مرزا جہلمی کی کچھ مزید بونگیاں

[Pakistani1947]

میدان اور گھوڑا حاضر ہے
امت کو قرآن پر اتفاق کروا کر دیکھائیں ​

All non-Shia Muslims are united on the authenticity of Qur'an. You right! non-Shia Muslim can not be united with Shias on the basis of Qur'an because Shia do not believe in the completeness of Qur'an.
As I have already mentioned in my post # 50, the fact from Shia Books that Shia believe that the "real" Qur'an, without any distortion, is with the Imam of century.
Since their 6 year old 12th Imam is hiding since 874 A.D, hence the "real" Qur'an is no longer available to anybody; hence they have to rely on "whatever" Qur'an available to them. (أستغفر الله)

Ali Asgar Burjardee in "Akaidu shia" p 27, printed in Iran, said:
"It obligatory to believe that there is no distortion and omission in real Quran. Distortion and omission took place in Quran, which was compiled by hypocrites. And real, veritable Quran is with imam of the century..."

After reading all this non-sense (references of Shia Books in my post # 50) , I think Muslim scholars should re-visit and decide whether they should be given the status of Muslim.

And I think, CitizenX is right! when he says, Qadianis believe in only one Dajjal Prophet but Shia believe in 12 Prophets (12 false infallible Imams), with god like attributes (أستغفر الله).
Qadianis believes in Completeness and authenticity of Qur'an whereas shia do not. Qadianis accept in all Sunni Six Books of Hadiths, called Sihah Sitta.

Disclaimer: I believe that Qadianis are Kafir because they do not believe in "Khatam e Nabowat" and believe in Mirza Dajjal as their false Prophet.

karachiwala

 

[There is only 1]

All non-Shia Muslims are united on the authenticity of Qur'an. You right! non-Shia Muslim can not be united with Shias on the basis of Qur'an because Shia do not believe in the completeness of Qur'an.
As I have already mentioned in my post # 50, the fact from Shia Books that Shia believe that the "real" Qur'an, without any distortion, is with the Imam of century.
Since their 6 year old 12th Imam is hiding since 874 A.D, hence the "real" Qur'an is no longer available to anybody; hence they have to rely on "whatever" Qur'an available to them. (أستغفر الله)

Ali Asgar Burjardee in "Akaidu shia" p 27, printed in Iran, said:
"It obligatory to believe that there is no distortion and omission in real Quran. Distortion and omission took place in Quran, which was compiled by hypocrites. And real, veritable Quran is with imam of the century..."

After reading all this non-sense (references of Shia Books in my post # 50) , I think Muslim scholars should re-visit and decide whether they should be given the status of Muslim.

And I think, CitizenX is right! when he says, Qadianis believe in only one Dajjal Prophet but Shia believe in 12 Prophets (12 false infallible Imams), with god like attributes (أستغفر الله).
Qadianis believes in Completeness and authenticity of Qur'an whereas shia do not. Qadianis accept in all Sunni Six Books of Hadiths, called Sihah Sitta.

Disclaimer: I believe that Qadianis are Kafir because they do not believe in "Khatam e Nabowat" and believe in Mirza Dajjal as their false Prophet.

karachiwala

آپ کافی حد تک پگلا گئے ہیں ، ایک پوسٹ میں آپ حدیث ثقلین لکھ رہے ہیں کہ رسول الله اپنی زندگی میں ہی قرآن دے گئے تھے اور پھر اس کے ایک گھنٹے اور انتالیس منٹ بعد پھر سے قرآن نامکمل کی گردن . . . .! جب کہ آپ کو چلینج تھا کہ آپ اپنے لوگوں کو متحد کروا کے دیکھائیں
. . . . .
میرے خیال میں آپ کی ایک کے بعد دوسرا ، پھر دوسرے کے بعد پہلا موضوع چھیڑنے کا طرز عمل انتہائی بودا اور بیوقوفانہ ہے اس لئے آپ کوشش کیا کریں کہ اس کے لئے مجھے قوٹ نہ کیا کریں ، ہاں فورم آپ کے سامنے ہے اس پر اپنا نقطہ نظر لکھ دیا کریں ​

 

[Pakistani1947]

آپ کافی حد تک پگلا گئے ہیں ، ایک پوسٹ میں آپ حدیث ثقلین لکھ رہے ہیں کہ رسول الله اپنی زندگی میں ہی قرآن دے گئے تھے اور پھر اس کے ایک گھنٹے اور انتالیس منٹ بعد پھر سے قرآن نامکمل کی گردن ​

There is no dispute between any Muslim or Shia that Prophet Muhammad ﷺ gave Qur'an during his lifetime. If he ﷺ did not have given the Qur'an in his lifetime than his ﷺ mission would not have completed. The dispute is created by Shias when they say that the original Qur'an which was given by Prophet Muhammad ﷺ was later changed/ distorted after his ﷺ death, by Sahabah Karam (رضي الله عنه).
(أستغفر الله)

I also quoted as evidences from Shia Books in my previous post # 50 as follows:

1. Mulla Mohammad Tagi Kashani in "Hidayatool talibeen" p 368, Tehran 1282 h:
Uthmaan ordered to his friend and enemy of Ali, Zayd ibn Thaabeet to collect Quran, and to delete from it places with the merits of ahle-bayt, and defamation of their enemies. Now, the same Quran, which collected by order of Uthmaan at the hands of the people, and known like Uthmaans roll".

2. Ali Asgar Burjardee in "Akaidu shia" p 27, printed in Iran, said:
"It obligatory to believe that there is no distortion and omission in real Quran. Distortion and ommision took place in Quran, which was compilied by hypocrites. And real, veritable Quran is with imam of the century..."

3. Mugaddas Ardabili in "Hadigat ash shia" p 118-119, in Farsi, printed in Iran, said:
“Uthmaan suggest to Abdullah ibn Masood to abandon his roll, and ordered him to read the roll which Zayd ibn Thaabit wrote and compiled by his order. (After that he) killed him. Some (people) said, that Uthmaan ordered to his two scribes, Marwan ibn Hakam and Ziyad ibn Samara to copy what suite to them, from roll of Abdullah (ibn Masood), to omit what doesn’t suite and destroy what remain after”.

4. Haji Kareem Khan Kirmanee in "Irshad ul uloom" vol 3, p 121, in Farsi, printed in Teheran, said:
"Imam Mahdi after his emergence will read Quran, and will say: "Ya moslems, i swear by Allah, this is a real Quran, which was revealed to Mohammad, (which was) tampered and changed"

5. Sharafuldeen Husayni in "Taweel ul ayaat" vol 1, p 319 reported:
(Chain) from Abdullah ibn Sinan, from Abu Abdullah, which said: "And certainly We gave a commandment to Adam before words about Mohammad, and Ali, and Fatima, and Hasan and Husayn and imams from their progeny he forgot; and We did not find in him any determination"--i swear by Allah, this is how it was revealed upon Mohammad (sallalahu alayhi wa salam)
Note: According to Qur'an, [Shakir 20:115] And certainly We gave a commandment to Adam before, but he forgot; and We did not find in him any determination.

6. Kulayni in "Kafi", kitab al Hujja, vol 1, p 424:
عن الحسين بن مياح عمن أخبره قال قرأ رجل عند أبي عبد الله عليه السلام: "وقل اعملوا فسيرى الله عملكم ورسوله والمؤمنون"، فقال: ليس هكذا إنما هي والمأمونون. "فنحن المأمونون.

Translation: "A man read in presence of Abu Abdullah following verse: "[Shakir 9:105] And say: Work; so Allah will see your work and (so will) His Messenger and the believers". (Imam) said: "It's not like this (believers). Indeed it like this "entrusted". And we are entrusted".

Also see: Majlesi "Bihar al anwar" 23/352 and Fayz Kashani "Safi" 2/273
PS. Believers in arabic will sound like this "al-mumineen". Entrusted- "al-muminoon".

7. Fayz Kashani reported other version of this verse, with reference to Kulayni and Ayashi:
"It was reported from Bagr (a.s) in Kafi and by Ayashi: "surely the Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord about wilayat of Ali therefore believe, (it shall be) good for you and If you disbelieve in wilayat of Ali". See "Safi" vol 1, p 523

Note: Allah said: [Shakir 4:170] O people! surely the Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, therefore believe, (it shall be) good for you and If you disbelieve, then surely whatever is in the heavens and the earth is Allah's; and Allah is Knowing, Wise.

8. Fayz Kashani reported in "Safi" 1/468:
"And from Bagir (a.s): "and if they had done what they were admonished about Ali", it was revealed like this".

Note: Allah said: [ 4:66] And if We had prescribed for them: Lay down your lives or go forth from your homes, they would not have done it except a few of them; and if they had done what they were admonished, it would have certainly been better for them and best in strengthening (them);

9. In Tafseer Foorat al-Koofi we read:
"From Mohammad ibn Qassem [ibn Ubayd. Said: "It was narrated to me by Hasan ibn Jafar, from Abu Moosa Mashrooganee, from Abdullah ibn Ubayd, from Ali ibn Saed] from Abu Hamtha ath-Thoomalee [from Jafar as-Sadeeg (a.s)] which said: "Jibrayeel recited to Mohammad [this verse] in this form: "And when it is said unto them: What hath your Lord revealed (about Ali)? they say: (Mere) fables of the men of old"

Note: Allah said in the Qur'an: [16:24] And when it is said unto them: What hath your Lord revealed? they say: (Mere) fables of the men of old,

 

[Pakistani1947]

@ There is only 1

Since you have run out of arguments (چونکہ آپ کے دلائل ختم ہوگئے ہی), I am taking your "HaHa" ? as accepting the fact that it is Shias who, according to so many quotes from Shias Books, Shia has a believe that Qur'an was later changed/ distorted after the death of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ , by Sahabah Karam (رضي الله عنه).
(أستغفر الله)

 

[There is only 1]

Pakistani1947
آپ کو میں ایک دوسرے تھریڈ کی پوسٹ اکاؤن اور ترپن میں شافی جواب دے چکا ہوں ، میرا چلینج ہے آپ کو کہ آپ اپنی پوسٹ کے جواب میں میری یہ دونوں پوسٹیں لکھیں اور پھر لوگوں کا ردعمل دیکھیں
لیکن آپ نے وضاحت نہیں دی کہ آپ کے ہاں قرآن کی تحریف سے متعلق احادیث کیوں پائی جاتی ہیں یعنی ماجہ صاحب کے پتر کی کتاب میں بکری والی حدیث ، اس امت کے سابقہ امتوں کی مانند ہو جانا ، اور قرآن اپنے نزول کی بجائے الٹ پلٹ لکھا جانا
. . . . . .
آپ نے ہا ہا کا پوچھا ہے تو بتا دوں کہ میں نے آپ کے کمنٹ کو ایک خاص وجہ سے ہا ہا کیا تھا اور میرا سٹینڈرڈ بھی یہی ہے کہ کمنٹ پر ری ایکشن کسی ٹھوس وجہ پر ہی دیتا ہوں ​

 

[Pakistani1947]

Pakistani1947
آپ کو میں ایک دوسرے تھریڈ کی پوسٹ اکاؤن اور ترپن میں شافی جواب دے چکا ہوں ، میرا چلینج ہے آپ کو کہ آپ اپنی پوسٹ کے جواب میں میری یہ دونوں پوسٹیں لکھیں اور پھر لوگوں کا ردعمل دیکھیں
لیکن آپ نے وضاحت نہیں دی کہ آپ کے ہاں قرآن کی تحریف سے متعلق احادیث کیوں پائی جاتی ہیں یعنی ماجہ صاحب کے پتر کی کتاب میں بکری والی حدیث ، اس امت کے سابقہ امتوں کی مانند ہو جانا ، اور قرآن اپنے نزول کی بجائے الٹ پلٹ لکھا جانا
. . . . . .
آپ نے ہا ہا کا پوچھا ہے تو بتا دوں کہ میں نے آپ کے کمنٹ کو ایک خاص وجہ سے ہا ہا کیا تھا اور میرا سٹینڈرڈ بھی یہی ہے کہ کمنٹ پر ری ایکشن کسی ٹھوس وجہ پر ہی دیتا ہوں ​

بات کو گھمائیں نہیں - آپ نے اب تک نیچے دئیے گیے شیعوں کی کتابوں کے حوالوں کے بارے میں مزید تبصرہ نہیں کیا -آپ کا یہ کہنا کہ "میں نے اب تک نہیں پڑھا " کافی نہیں - ان حوالوں سے شیعہ کا موجودہ قرآن میں تحریف کا عقیدہ ثابت ہوتا ہے - اگر اس کے بر خلاف ثابت کرنا ہے تو یہ آپ کے ذمہ ہے کہ ان حوالوں کو غلط ثابت کریں - ورنہ ہم سمجھیں گے کہ آپ تقیہ کے طور پر جھجک رہے ہیں - آپ کی یہ معزرت ہمیں قبول ہے​

I also quoted as evidences from Shia Books in my previous post # 50 as follows:

1. Mulla Mohammad Tagi Kashani in "Hidayatool talibeen" p 368, Tehran 1282 h:
Uthmaan ordered to his friend and enemy of Ali, Zayd ibn Thaabeet to collect Quran, and to delete from it places with the merits of ahle-bayt, and defamation of their enemies. Now, the same Quran, which collected by order of Uthmaan at the hands of the people, and known like Uthmaans roll".

2. Ali Asgar Burjardee in "Akaidu shia" p 27, printed in Iran, said:
"It obligatory to believe that there is no distortion and omission in real Quran. Distortion and ommision took place in Quran, which was compilied by hypocrites. And real, veritable Quran is with imam of the century..."

3. Mugaddas Ardabili in "Hadigat ash shia" p 118-119, in Farsi, printed in Iran, said:
“Uthmaan suggest to Abdullah ibn Masood to abandon his roll, and ordered him to read the roll which Zayd ibn Thaabit wrote and compiled by his order. (After that he) killed him. Some (people) said, that Uthmaan ordered to his two scribes, Marwan ibn Hakam and Ziyad ibn Samara to copy what suite to them, from roll of Abdullah (ibn Masood), to omit what doesn’t suite and destroy what remain after”.

4. Haji Kareem Khan Kirmanee in "Irshad ul uloom" vol 3, p 121, in Farsi, printed in Teheran, said:
"Imam Mahdi after his emergence will read Quran, and will say: "Ya moslems, i swear by Allah, this is a real Quran, which was revealed to Mohammad, (which was) tampered and changed"

5. Sharafuldeen Husayni in "Taweel ul ayaat" vol 1, p 319 reported:
(Chain) from Abdullah ibn Sinan, from Abu Abdullah, which said: "And certainly We gave a commandment to Adam before words about Mohammad, and Ali, and Fatima, and Hasan and Husayn and imams from their progeny he forgot; and We did not find in him any determination"--i swear by Allah, this is how it was revealed upon Mohammad (sallalahu alayhi wa salam)
Note: According to Qur'an, [Shakir 20:115] And certainly We gave a commandment to Adam before, but he forgot; and We did not find in him any determination.

6. Kulayni in "Kafi", kitab al Hujja, vol 1, p 424:
عن الحسين بن مياح عمن أخبره قال قرأ رجل عند أبي عبد الله عليه السلام: "وقل اعملوا فسيرى الله عملكم ورسوله والمؤمنون"، فقال: ليس هكذا إنما هي والمأمونون. "فنحن المأمونون.

Translation: "A man read in presence of Abu Abdullah following verse: "[Shakir 9:105] And say: Work; so Allah will see your work and (so will) His Messenger and the believers". (Imam) said: "It's not like this (believers). Indeed it like this "entrusted". And we are entrusted".

Also see: Majlesi "Bihar al anwar" 23/352 and Fayz Kashani "Safi" 2/273
PS. Believers in arabic will sound like this "al-mumineen". Entrusted- "al-muminoon".

7. Fayz Kashani reported other version of this verse, with reference to Kulayni and Ayashi:
"It was reported from Bagr (a.s) in Kafi and by Ayashi: "surely the Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord about wilayat of Ali therefore believe, (it shall be) good for you and If you disbelieve in wilayat of Ali". See "Safi" vol 1, p 523

Note: Allah said: [Shakir 4:170] O people! surely the Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, therefore believe, (it shall be) good for you and If you disbelieve, then surely whatever is in the heavens and the earth is Allah's; and Allah is Knowing, Wise.

8. Fayz Kashani reported in "Safi" 1/468:
"And from Bagir (a.s): "and if they had done what they were admonished about Ali", it was revealed like this".

Note: Allah said: [ 4:66] And if We had prescribed for them: Lay down your lives or go forth from your homes, they would not have done it except a few of them; and if they had done what they were admonished, it would have certainly been better for them and best in strengthening (them);

9. In Tafseer Foorat al-Koofi we read:
"From Mohammad ibn Qassem [ibn Ubayd. Said: "It was narrated to me by Hasan ibn Jafar, from Abu Moosa Mashrooganee, from Abdullah ibn Ubayd, from Ali ibn Saed] from Abu Hamtha ath-Thoomalee [from Jafar as-Sadeeg (a.s)] which said: "Jibrayeel recited to Mohammad [this verse] in this form: "And when it is said unto them: What hath your Lord revealed (about Ali)? they say: (Mere) fables of the men of old"

Note: Allah said in the Qur'an: [16:24] And when it is said unto them: What hath your Lord revealed? they say: (Mere) fables of the men of old,

 

[Citizen X]

@ There is only 1

Since you have run out of arguments (چونکہ آپ کے دلائل ختم ہوگئے ہی), I am taking your "HaHa" ? as accepting the fact that it is Shias who, according to so many quotes from Shias Books, Shia has a believe that Qur'an was later changed/ distorted after the death of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ , by Sahabah Karam (رضي الله عنه).
(أستغفر الله)

LOL yeh is dhakan ki purani aadat hai, jub koi daleel nahi rehti to phir haha ker ke apni jahalat ka muzaira ker ke dafa ho jata hai! So now I just give him a dose of his own medicine!

 

[Mughal1]

میدان اور گھوڑا حاضر ہے
امت کو قرآن پر اتفاق کروا کر دیکھائیں ​

azeezam there is only 1 sb, aap sab se pehle ye baaten sochen keh ummat wajood main aati kyun hai aur kaise aati hai aur tootati kyun hai aur kaise tootati hai. jab ham log is bunyaadi nuqte ko samajh jaayen ge to ham ko un asbaab aur halaaat se waaqfiyat haasil ho jaaye gi jo hamaare liye samajhne az bas laazmi hen.

quraan ko ham ko in baatun ki roshni main samajhna ho ga apne bebunyaad aqeedun aur khayalaat ke tanaazur main nahin. quraan ko main deene islam ki bunyaad qaraar deta hun is liye keh quraan bataata hai nazaame hayaat kia hota hai. issi tanaazure main quraan bataata hai log aapas main ladte kyun hen aur un ki aapas ki ladayee khatam kaise ho sakti hai.

ham ne quraan ko kabhi is tanaazure main padha hi nahin hai samajhne ke liye to phir ham quraan se hadaayat kaise haasil ker sakte hen? ummat ne aik waqt se quraan per ghoro fiker chhora huwa hai. ham sab log bebunyaad aqeedun aur nuqsaan deh amaal ke aseer bane huwe hen.

aap khud hi bataayen deene islam ko zaabtae hayaat kyun kahaa jaata hai. jeene ki rah aakhir hoti kia hai? kia quraan ham ko khudaa ne is duniya main theek tarah se jeena sikhaane ke liye diya hai taa keh us ka maqsade takhleeq poora yaa is liye keh ham us ki pooja paat main lag jaayen? yahee farq hai quraan ko deene islam ki kitab samajhne main aur is ko aik mazhabi kitaab samajhne main.

hamaare saath ye sab kuchh jo hamaari kitaabun main likha hai huwa kaise hai aur is ka ulat kia hai aap khud hi samajh jaayen ge. main aik had tak logoon ko ye to bataa sakta hun keh ye sab kuchh kaise huwa aur is ko kaise paltaaya jaa sakta hai magar meri baatun ko samajhne ke liye bhi meri tarah logoon ko apni umren lagaani hun gi taleemo tarbiyat haasil kerne ke liye. in sab baatun ke liye aik to waqt aur doosra sakht mehnat darkaar hai. jab log ye kerne ke liye tayaar ho jaayen ge woh ummat ban bhi ban jaayen ge.

aaj is duniya main ummat banaane ke liye quraan ki koi drust tafseer hi mojood nahin hai. agar koi hai to aap bataa den. yahee wajah hai ham ko aaj sab se pehle aik aisi tafseer peda kerne ki zaroorat taa keh us ko duniya main phelaa ker insaaniyat ko quraan ke asal paighaam tak pohnchaaya jaa sake. phir log khud hi ummat banae ke liye tayaar ho jaayen ge.

jab koi shakhs quraan ki drust tafseer likhne ko baithe ga to us ko pata chale ga keh is rah main kis qadar mushkilaat aur dushwaariyan hen. main issi raaste ka musaafir hun yahee wajah hai main tane tanhaa hun aur mujhe her lihaaz se sakht tareen mushkalaat ka saamna hai. mere nazdeek her shai se ziyaada zaroori bunyaad hai agar wohee nahin to baaqi kia. issi liye main is kaam main din raat laga hun. main chahun ga deegar log bhi apni zindagiyan mazhab ke chungal main pans ker barbaad na karen balkeh deene islam ko quraan se samajhne ki koshish karen taa keh saheeh raasta paa saken. logoon ko chahiye woh deegar haasil shuda uloom ki roshni main jo haqaaiq per mabni hun quraan ko samajhne ki koshish karen. mujhe poori poori umeed hai yeh roshni zaroor phele gi.

mere maanana yeh hai keh jis din log quraan ko theek tarah se samajh jaayen ge ummat wajood main aana shuroo ho jaaye gi. meri khawaish yeh hai keh ummat quraan ko theek tarah se samajhne ki sanjeeda koshishen kerni shuroo kare taa keh saheeh maanu main ummat ban sake. meri yeh khawaaish Allah taala ke bataaye ke ain mutaabiq hai. is liye keh khudaa ne deene islam issi duniya insaanu ke apnaane ke liye baijha hai. lihaaza aisa aik din zaroor ho ker rahe ga.

yaad rakhen Allah taala ne ham ko shakhsiyat parasti nahin sikhayee. is liye kyunkeh her insaan ghalatiyun ka majmua hai keh ghalatiyun ke baghair koi insaan kuchh bhi seekh hi nahin sakta. yahee wajah hai us ne ham insaanu ko haq baat ko parakhne ke liye mayaar diya hai apni kitaab ki soorat main. haq baat hoti hi woh hai jo haqaaiq per mabni ho. khudaa ka ilm haqeeqi ilm hai. yahee wajah hai ulmaaye haq sirf aur sirf woh log hen jo haqaaiq ki bunyaad per ilm haasil karte hen.

pedaaish se le ker marne tak her shakh sirf aur sirf haqaaiq hi se ilm haasil ker sakta is ka aur koi zariya hai hi nahin. wahee bhi khudaa ki taraf se unhi logoon ko mili jo haqaaiq se waaqif the. issi liye to woh wahee ki roshni ki talaash main roogardaan the wahee milne se pehle. is duniya main mojood haqaaiq ka drust ilm hi logoon ko khudaa ki zaat ki taraf mutwajeh kerta hai aur ker sakta hai. jo log haqaaiq ka inkaar ker dete hen woh kabhi kisi bhi maamle main haqeeqat tak pohnch hi nahin sakte. lihaaza main aap ko yahee dawat doon ga keh aap islam ko deen yaani way of life samjhen mazhab nahin.

Allah taala ham sab ko apni baatun ko theek tarah se samajhne ki koshish kerne ki aur un per theek tarah se samajh ker amal kerne ki towfeeq aataa farmaaye.

regards and all the best.

 

[Mughal1]

Islam is deen ie way of life not mazhab ie pooja paat. My challenge to all shia sunni mullahs and their disciples.

Before any of you responds, please do find out what a way of life is or has to be about.

 

[Mughal1]

@ There is only 1 , azeezam there is only 1 sb, please do not treat this as a joke, instead kindly explain what a way of life has to be about for which human beings need guidance from God?

regards and all the best.