War and Terrorism - Defining the two and where to Draw the line?

[hairatkada]

Estimates of the casualties from the conflict in Iraq since 2003 (beginning with the 2003 US invasion of Iraq, and the ensuing occupation and insurgency) have come in many forms, and the accuracy of the information available on different types of Iraq War casualties varies greatly.
Scientific surveys of Iraqi deaths resulting from the first four years of the Iraq War found that between 151,000 to over one million Iraqis died as a result of conflict during this time. A later study, published in 2011, found that approximately 500,000 Iraqis had died as a result of the conflict since the invasion. Counts of deaths reported in newspapers collated by projects like the Iraq Body Count project found 174,000 Iraqis reported killed between 2003 and 2013, with between 112,000-123,000 of those killed being civilian noncombatants

 

[حکایت جنوں]

Conditions were already there created by Saddam Hussain

Number of Iraqis Killed by Sadam Hussain

Number of Victims[edit]

According to The New York Times, "he [Saddam] murdered as many as a million of his people, many with poison gas. He tortured, maimed and imprisoned countless more. His unprovoked invasion of Iran is estimated to have left another million people dead. His seizure of Kuwait threw the Middle East into crisis. More insidious, arguably, was the psychological damage he inflicted on his own land. Hussein created a nation of informants — friends on friends, circles within circles — making an entire population complicit in his rule".[SUP][9][/SUP] Other estimates as to the number of Iraqis killed by Saddam's regime vary from roughly a quarter to half a million,[SUP][10][/SUP][SUP][11][/SUP] including 50,000 to 182,000 Kurds and 25,000 to 280,000 killed during the repression of the 1991 rebellion.[SUP][12][/SUP][SUP][13][/SUP] Estimates for the number of dead in the Iran-Iraq war range upwards from 300,000.[SUP][14][/SUP]
Other atrocities[edit]

During the 1991 rebellion, several "dungeons" were liberated, revealing "disoriented and confused" inmates that believed Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr was still the president.[SUP][15][/SUP] Of nearly 2 million refugees created by the 1991 crackdown on dissent, it is estimated that 1,000 died every day for a period of months due to unsanitary and inhumane conditions.[SUP][16][/SUP]The destruction of Shi'ite religious shrines by Hussein's regime has been called "comparable to the levelling of cities in the Second World War, and the damage to the shrines [of Hussein and Abbas] was more serious than that which had been done to many European cathedrals."[SUP][17][/SUP] Methods of torture used by Hussein's regime included assault with brass knuckles and wooden bludgeons; electric shocks to the genitalia; scorched metal rods being forced into body orifices; the crushing of toes and removal of toenails; burning off limbs; lowering prisoners into vats of acid; poisoning with thallium; raping women in front of their family members; burning with cigarette butts; the crushing of bones; the amputation of ears, limbs, and tongues; and the gouging of eyes.[SUP][18][/SUP] After the 1983-88 genocide, some 1 million Kurds were allowed to resettle in "model villages". According to a U.S. Senate staff report, these villages "were poorly constructed, had minimal sanitation and water, and provided few employment opportunities for the residents. Some, if not most, were surrounded by barbed wire, and Kurds could enter or leave only with difficulty."[SUP][19][/SUP]

Great. Why did such a wide scale violence within populations, which is totally different in kind from the violence inflicted by a dictatorial regime on certains sections of a society, occur only after neo-colonial power enters into the scene? Why does the post-colonial societies in history see a large worst ethnic and religious violence just after the departure of colonialism?

 

[hairatkada]

Further to prove my point please check this video :

US soldiers talk about killing innocent Iraqi civilians THEN PLANTING WEAPONS ON THEM. This is just a glimpse.

 

[PUNJABIMUNDANO1]

Sir, this very reasoning that because Saddam killed 50,000 kurds...hence the Americans can go in there and Massacre another 150,000 Iraqies does not make sense. How could two wrongs make one right?

Killing terrorists is not a wrong thing Bro!
If u say Talibans and ISIS are also killing terrorist then it will take us nowhere!
We have always asked Talibans to participate in Elections in Pakistan, If people of Pakistan elect them then its good if people reject them then they should accept the verdict of the people!
Even targeting civilians by act of terrorism cannot be justified by an Elected Party, MQM can be cited as an example!
Democracy means rule of the majority with the rights of the minority!

 

[hairatkada]

Killing terrorists is not a wrong thing Bro!
If u say Talibans and ISIS are also killing terrorist then it will take us nowhere!
We have always asked Taliban to participate in Elections in Pakistan, If people of Pakistan elect them then its good if people reject them then they should accept the verdict of the people!
Even targeting civilians by act of terrorism cannot be justified by an Elected Party, MQM can be cited as an example!
Democracy means rule of the majority with the rights of minority!

Killing the innocent is a crime whether it is done by the US army in iraq, libya, veitnam, afghanistan etc etc or done by the militants. You cannot condemn one and let the other go free. The 150,000 who died in iraq war were not terrorists but innocent civilians!

 

[Believer12]

تمہاری شکل دیکھنا بھی کسی ٹیرر سے کم نہیں

 

[PUNJABIMUNDANO1]

Further to prove my point please check this video :

US soldiers talk about killing innocent Iraqi civilians THEN PLANTING WEAPONS ON THEM. This is just a glimpse.

yes, they killed and we also have the proof of inhuman treatment of Prisoners at Abu Gareeb but they were tried and punished in war crime tribunals!

Now, tell me How many people were tried or punished by ISIS for enslaving Yadizi, Christian and Shia Muslim girls and selling them in sex market?
Americans never protected the war criminals, But the ideology followed by you justify war crimes hence ISIS proudly embraced all the crimes!

 

[hairatkada]

تمہاری شکل دیکھنا بھی کسی ٹیرر سے کم نہیں

Shut up! This thread is not for you.

 

[hairatkada]

yes, they killed and we also have the proof of inhuman treatment of Prisoners at Abu Gareeb but they were tried and punished in war crime tribunals!

Now, tell me How many people were tried or punished by ISIS for enslaving Yadizi, Christian and Shia Muslim girls and selling them in sex market?
American never protected the war criminals, But the ideology followed by you justify war crimes hence ISIS proudly embraced all the crimes!

I am not a spokesperson for ISIS or the USA military. I condemn both and have raised my voice for the innocent civilians. Can we focus on the human toll? this is why i created the thread. To compare terror and war...equate the two and to make people understand that both are destructive. Do not expect me to represent ISIS , TTP or the USA military.

 

[hairatkada]

The Voting results so Far : 100 percent of voters agree that wars have caused more destruction. Please check screen shot below : I will keep on updating the poll screen shots as more voters cast their vote.

 

[PUNJABIMUNDANO1]

Killing the innocent is a crime whether it is done by the US army in iraq, libya, veitnam, afghanistan etc etc or done by the militants. You cannot condemn one and let the other go free. The 150,000 who died in iraq war were not terrorists but innocent civilians!

Killing a terrorist is not a crime ......... A terrorist cannot be defined as innocent!
Saddam had an army of 10 lac people , if 1 lac 50 thousand were killed in war then its not a crime .... obviously there were also number of innocent civilian casualties but the civilians were not deliberately targeted. If American's wanna kill innocent then they had no need to send their army to be killed, they could have dropped Hydrogen Bombs to win the war as well as land!

 

[PUNJABIMUNDANO1]

I am not a spokesperson for ISIS or the USA military. I condemn both and have raised my voice for the innocent civilians. Can we focus on the human toll? this is why i created the thread. To compare terror and war...equate the two and to make people understand that both are destructive. Do not expect me to represent ISIS , TTP or the USA military.

Everyone here know u and how much peaceful and humane u are Bro!

 

[Believer12]

Killing the innocent is a crime whether it is done by the US army in iraq, libya, veitnam, afghanistan etc etc or done by the militants. You cannot condemn one and let the other go free. The 150,000 who died in iraq war were not terrorists but innocent civilians!

ڈیڑھ لاکھ عراقی مروانے کا الزام امریکہ کے علاوہ اس شخص کو بھی جاتا ہے جس نے راتوں رات کویت جیسے پر امن ملک پر قبضہ کر لیا تھا پھر گیارہ سال ایران کے ساتھ جنگ کی، تم بتاو کہ تمہارے دماغ میں یہ تبدیلی کیسے آگئی کہ دہشت گردوں کی سپورٹ چھوڑ دی ؟؟

 

[hairatkada]

Killing a terrorist is not a crime ......... A terrorist cannot be defined as innocent!
Saddam had an army of 10 lac people , if 1 lac 50 thousand were killed in war then its not a crime .... obviously there were also number of innocent civilian casualties but the civilians were not deliberately targeted. If American's wanna kill innocent then they had no need to send their army to be killed, they could have dropped Hydrogen Bombs to win the war as well as land!

Tonnes of Bombs are explosives were dropped on iraq and there is no such technology that can distinguish between combatants and civilians. A bomb dropped from the sky does not ask and investigate who is who. Americans are guilty of this massacre but somehow you out of your love for them want to give them a clean chit. I am sorry, but i find them worst than the Afghan or Iraqi militants.

 

[PUNJABIMUNDANO1]

Tonnes of Bombs are explosives were dropped on iraq and there is no such technology that can distinguish between combatants and civilians. A bomb dropped from the sky does not ask and investigate who is who. Americans are guilty of this massacre but somehow you out of your love for them want to give them a clean chit. I am sorry, but i find them worst than the Afghan or Iraqi militants.

Just go and watch the live telly cast of Operation Shock and Awe over Baghdad! 100's of bombs were dropped but only on government buildings with a great precision!

I told u before, if American wanted to kill civilians then they had dropped Hydrogen Bombs over Iraq and could have won war and land as prize without having a single casualty on their part!

 

[hairatkada]

Just go and watch the live telly cast of Operation Shock and Awe over Baghdad! 100's of bombs were dropped but only on government buildings with a great precision!

I told u before, if American wanted to kill civilians then they had dropped Hydrogen Bombs over Iraq and could have won war and land as prize without having a single casualty on their part!

Here you go Sir. The precision you are taking about is a fairytale. Check these pics of children who were victim of american bombing of iraq.

http://childvictimsofwar.org.uk/get-informed/iraq/

A badly injured child, a bit of the 'collateral damage' from a US bomb drop, is carried by a distraught father in Iraq

I will now halt my replies to you as we want this discussion to include all and not just you and me.

​

 

[PUNJABIMUNDANO1]

Here you go Sir. The precision you are taking about is a fairytale. Check these pics of children who were victim of american bombing of iraq.

http://childvictimsofwar.org.uk/get-informed/iraq/

A badly injured child, a bit of the 'collateral damage' from a US bomb drop, is carried by a distraught father in Iraq

I will now halt my replies to you as we want this discussion to include all and just not you and me.

​

I have already accepted and maintained that in War innocent people get killed but they are not the deliberate target
While the deliberate targeting of civilians to create fear is called terrorism!

 

[HORUS]

well said....like the TTP khanzeeer ki auladain deliberately attacking APS and killing, thats just raw pure terrorism

I have already accepted and maintained that in War innocent people get killed but they are not the deliberate target
While the deliberate targeting of civilians to create fear is called terrorism!

 

[mrk123]

ڈیڑھ لاکھ عراقی مروانے کا الزام امریکہ کے علاوہ اس شخص کو بھی جاتا ہے جس نے راتوں رات کویت جیسے پر امن ملک پر قبضہ کر لیا تھا پھر گیارہ سال ایران کے ساتھ جنگ کی، تم بتاو کہ تمہارے دماغ میں یہ تبدیلی کیسے آگئی کہ دہشت گردوں کی سپورٹ چھوڑ دی ؟؟

You are mistaken if you think that he would give up supporting the terrorists. He is at this game for a very long time. I know him from a previous lifetime on paltalk. He is a character. You know that in some sports they have a trick play. Consider this as a trick play ;)

 

[mrk123]

I have already accepted and maintained that in War innocent people get killed but they are not the deliberate target
While the deliberate targeting of civilians to create fear is called terrorism!

Well, that is a very simplistic definition or differentiation. How would you characterize an unjust war that results in countless civilian casualties?
It may not technically qualify or fit the classical definition of terror but in my opinion its worst than terrorism as its perpetrated by the state. Its incumbent upon the state to show maximum restraint. The state has to declare war after careful deliberation and it must be the last resort.

Having said that we can't absolve the stupid dictators who brought upon this misery on their people.