Risks to economy increases with draining foreign reserves - Decide for yourself

[AsifAmeer]

Ok. I think I get it now. You mean to ask who's pulling the strings.
I honestly dont think we can pin point to 1 person and say he is the satan. Maybe Anwer feels he needs to listen to the Finance minsitry or he may loose his job. Finance Ministry thinks they need to listen to Hafeez or he will conplain to Zardari. Hafeez wants to just lie because the truth is too ugly to be shared with the IMF, while realizing that the fix is a political suicide.

I guess thats just the cost of a representative Govt in an uneducated country. Count USA in that list too.

Temo you read english books?

chalo theek hai. Where does the lead end ka seedha sadha tarjumah hai keh is sab ke peechey koun hai. aur doosra sawal yeh tha keh state bank aakhir aisa ker kion raha hai.

 

[Bangash]

Ok.. so far so good. I see no disagreement there.

There's is this quote from Ali Ibn Talib RAA that

• information obtained via listening is Ilm-ul-Yakeen
• information obtained via listening is Ain-ul-Yakeen
• information obtained via touching and confirming is Haq-ul-Yakeen

A fire with rising smoke was the subject in this quote.

Information collected via the senses humans have been blessed by Allah, that information has "some" validity. As time goes by, this pool of information expands for humans. Its like God has set a time for the information to be unveiled. You didnt have cars 200 years ago. The time hadnt come. Today we dont have time machines. The time hasnt come. If God wills, it may never come. So whatever information we get, we get that with Allah's permission. And Allah DOES NOT PLAY Favoritism. Information is for Humans, which includes Muslims. 100 Believers WILL GET wet in the rain just like the 100 non-believers. Haan, once in a thousand years, if Allah wills, the SUN may shine on 1 believer while the rest are soaked in rain water. We call that a miracle. This is God's way of telling us that He is in control. The miracle of 1 Man.. just 1 MAN... changing half of the world's geography starting from Arabia... Thats God's way of telling us - "You are not in a position to argue with me humans. I am your creator and Muhammed (SW) is my messenger". The persians, the romans, the indians, turks, the arabs.. all these empires crumbled.. This is God. and thats his way of showing us without any doubt who is in control. Acha phir dekho.. After Prophet SAW spread his msg, and then His Companions (His students), everything started breaking down. The way I see it as that the fall of the Muslims after the Sahaba RA was part of the proof the humans got from Allah that the Prophet Muhammed, blessed his name, is the messenger of our Creator.

There's another thing that I have noticed. Remember Musa AS was given a shaft which turned into a snake. Musa AS splitted the River Nile. Prophet Muhammed SAW splitted the moon and all these Physical science miracles. Modern science does not say all this can NEVER happen. Science says the chances of these things happening are very low, or almost none. These miracles can happened if its probability is increased. Science does just that. Whether be it medicine, machinery, botany, .. science is a study of probability. This is what God does. He changes probability at WILL.

What humans try to do is understand HOW probability is changed into their favor.

Mein nahi keh raha I understand everything out there. This is an evolving thought in my mind that I have been struggling with.
[MENTION=14890]mrk123[/MENTION] [MENTION=23319]Temojin[/MENTION] [MENTION=28031]Aleph[/MENTION]

I will send you personal message.

مجھے پتہ تھا آپکی سوچ کا اس لئے میں نے آپکی زبان میں بات کا آغاز کیا لیکن مجھے افسوس ہے کہ اپ پاس نہیں ہوئے لیکن بہت خوشی بھی ہے کہ اپ میں بہت سی تبدیلیاں آرہی ہیں اور اپ کچھ تو پڑھنے لگے ہیں آپکے عقیدے میں بڑے بڑے مسائل ہیں- یہ میرے لئے بہت مشکل ہوگا آپکو سمجھانا - میں آپکو کچھ غلطیاں آپکے لکھے ہوئے ہر آغاز کے فقروں میں واضح کر دتا ہوں لیکن پورے ٹکسٹ کی غلطیوں کے بارے میں نہیں لکھ سکتا بہت سی چیزیں ہیں جن کی وجھ سے میں اپ کے ساتھ اتفاق نہیں کرسکتا- ویسے آپکی اردو میں بھی ترقی ہورہی ہے یہ بھی اچھی بات ہے- اللہ آپکو خوش رکھے اور اپ کے ساتھ ہم سب کی مدد کرے- میں آپکو پرسنل مسیج میں ارسال کردیتا ہوں ​

 

[Temojin]

@AsifAmeer

What you and @Bangash are saying, are exactly the same things. Science is just another name of getting to know the laws upon which Allah has built this universe and incidents like saints turning copper into gold or so on is just a part of that knowledge of elements; That very knowledge of elements for which all angels prostrated before Adam A.S.

Now about what we were discussing. We exactly know who is behind all of it and we just wouldn't want to discuss because somebody would paste that fatwah of a conspiracy theory upon it. Just a hint, if Rupee keeps on going like this, military industrial complex will eventually benefit no matter a war is there or not. This is the way of taking war to Pakistan, the lesser part of it is the military version which could also be implemented in the near future.

o haan do you want me to blow my trumpet, I was a little kid when I had eaten Kafka, tolstoy, sartre, hardy etc. etc. :)

 

[AsifAmeer]

Temo, help me in recalling what i once heard at a Khutba..

Ali Ibn Talib RAA who once said

"If you hear a rumor that fire has started in the village and you confirm the news with other witnesses. Its Ilm-ul-Yaqeen. If you step outside and see that huge cloud of smoke from a distance. Thats Ain-ul-Yaqeen. You go where the smoke is rising from, you touch that fire which burns your hands. Thats Haq-ul-Yakeen, which is the level of Emaan of the Prophets..."

This is what I heard at a Khutba. I ahve no way of verifying this info but taking it at face value and the other quotes from Ali RAA, he would put the most complex issues into half a sentence words of wisdom!
[MENTION=10706]Bangash[/MENTION], if i understand him correctly, he has reservations of calling a confirmation of information with results (burnt hand) as Haq-ul-Yakeen. Am I correct Bangash?

When we have confirmed it time and again that ICE is cold and fire is hot, then putting one's hand in the fire with "Emaan" that nothing can burn my hand is ..... i dont know.. I dont have a word for this lunacy.

I am saying that there is only limited water Pakistan gets from upstream. If for e.g. Pakistan population doubles in 15 years, water resources wont. Bangash feels thats not how a Muslim should think. I feel giving up common-sense to follow a religion is a scam. Infact I would argue to follow Islam you absolutely need common sense. Let me give you an example. This in no way I mean any disrespect to any Christian or his faith. You cant apply logic to Christianity. Since, according to Christians, Moses AS, Jacob, Joseph and all other prophets who came before Jesus AS, were Jews and didnt believe in Jesus being the Son of God... they all go to hell? See that? For you to believe in Christianity, you have to follow faith... not reasoning. I dont do that with my faith.

Put your faith to test every day! You'd be amazed/humbled at the results. I hear many Muslims say "Proud to be a Muslim" while I always feel humbled and overwhelmed to be the follower of Muhammed SAW.

@AsifAmeer

What you and @Bangash are saying, are exactly the same things. Science is just another name of getting to know the laws upon which Allah has built this universe and incidents like saints turning copper into gold or so on is just a part of that knowledge of elements; That very knowledge of elements for which all angels prostrated before Adam A.S.

Now about what we were discussing. We exactly know who is behind all of it and we just wouldn't want to discuss because somebody would paste that fatwah of a conspiracy theory upon it. Just a hint, if Rupee keeps on going like this, military industrial complex will eventually benefit no matter a war is there or not. This is the way of taking war to Pakistan, the lesser part of it is the military version which could also be implemented in the near future.

o haan do you want me to blow my trumpet, I was a little kid when I had eaten Kafka, tolstoy, sartre, hardy etc. etc. :)

 

[Bangash]

Temo, help me in recalling what i once heard at a Khutba..

Ali Ibn Talib RAA who once said

"If you hear a rumor that fire has started in the village and you confirm the news with other witnesses. Its Ilm-ul-Yaqeen. If you step outside and see that huge cloud of smoke from a distance. Thats Ain-ul-Yaqeen. You go where the smoke is rising from, you touch that fire which burns your hands. Thats Haq-ul-Yakeen, which is the level of Emaan of the Prophets..."

This is what I heard at a Khutba. I ahve no way of verifying this info but taking it at face value and the other quotes from Ali RAA, he would put the most complex issues into half a sentence words of wisdom!
@<span class="highlight"><a href="http://www.siasat.pk/forum/member.php?u=10706" target="_blank">Bangash</a></span>, if i understand him correctly, he has reservations of calling a confirmation of information with results (burnt hand) as Haq-ul-Yakeen. Am I correct Bangash?
[HI]
When we have confirmed it time and again that ICE is cold and fire is hot, then putting one's hand in the fire with "Emaan" that nothing can burn my hand is ..... i dont know.. I dont have a word for this lunacy.[/HI]

I am saying that there is only limited water Pakistan gets from upstream. If for e.g. Pakistan population doubles in 15 years, water resources wont. Bangash feels thats not how a Muslim should think. I feel giving up common-sense to follow a religion is a scam. Infact I would argue to follow Islam you absolutely need common sense. Let me give you an example. This in no way I mean any disrespect to any Christian or his faith. You cant apply logic to Christianity. Since, according to Christians, Moses AS, Jacob, Joseph and all other prophets who came before Jesus AS, were Jews and didnt believe in Jesus being the Son of God... they all go to hell? See that? For you to believe in Christianity, you have to follow faith... not reasoning. I dont do that with my faith.

Put your faith to test every day! You'd be amazed/humbled at the results. I hear many Muslims say "Proud to be a Muslim" while I always feel humbled and overwhelmed to be the follower of Muhammed SAW.

???? ?? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???- ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? - ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??- ????? ?? ???? ?? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ????​

 

[Temojin]

[MENTION=24375]AsifAmeer[/MENTION] Have I ever mentioned that I have been interested in occult sciences too and have practiced a number of things ranging from kandalini yoga, OBE, one-pointedness to Psychokinesis and some other things too? I have seen people summon kalka and I have seen people , well, that is another story.

See you are absolutely right that Islam is totally according to common sense, yet we do see people who are sometimes amazingly having the capacity to handle things above rules of science. Now the issue is that those are the rules we haven't yet explored. For example, you must have heard about hypothermia but there are people who can handle temperatures below which are required to kill a human for extended periods of times without clothing. You might have had watched a program on national geographic where some ordinary rock climber was presented who had a rock above him when he accidentally fell with it (which weighed around 1200 pounds) but not only he was able to keep it from crushing him while sliding downhill on that uneven rocky path but ultimately kind of bench press it over his head and throw it behind his head. Many other examples.

Now the intent of discussing it was not to get this discussion astray but provide a little point i.e you both are talking about the same thing (yes! asserting again) yet presentation of the point differs as Bangash is talking about extreme faith which does exist albeit in only some individuals today yet you talk about rationale which should generally be present and which is the way to follow. For example, our elders in religion led a difficult life just to provide us with a teaching how humans should behave generally or why would Muhammad pbuh keep on struggling and having wars for years before capturing Makkah. Surely, the One pbuh who could have split moon with Allah's will, could surely demand a far easier task of fatah Makkah. This was all a teaching and the list goes on. Your point is exactly according to this rationale yet what [MENTION=10706]Bangash[/MENTION] is telling us is what happened at the time of Ghazwah Badr and in today's conditions, we do need that belief too. 313 vs 1000 and the proportion of armed men, you very well know about it. According to strategical warfare that too in a hand-to-hand combat, impossible to win yet it happened and these kinds of things happened many times. Now imagine Khalid bin Waleed R.A, the battle of yarmook, him surrounded between enemies and him moving like a lightening bolt, physically impossible when we have a look at the energy systems and the lactic acid production type II muscle fibers make during fast movements. One can't simply go on for hours but he kept on fighting defying laws at any scientific scale and even after the battle, walked on his feet and remained well. That means there are things above what we have discovered yet, not that these things don't follow rules of the universe but that we haven't come across them yet. Now comes the case where we have an issue of drone strikes, NATO supply routes etc. We are taught a rational approach that if we shoot down a drone, would we be able to bear the aftermath? Rationally and strategically, No! And anyone who denies it is a fool but look at what Quran states. It clearly states that if you believe totally in Allah and stand up, Allah will help you and you would ultimately be the victor. Would you deny it? No! This was the faith which worked in Badr, in Motah and in Yarmook. At this time, it doesn't work because we are in a state of confusion. What if we do it and believe in Allah, will Allah help us or aren't we ready yet, what if we are helped a little later and till then, much of the country has suffered more than expected and many what ifs. So you see what he is talking about is totally correct and would be so as the times go on as the crunch will be there one way or another and Muslims will have to be like that and your approach is totally correct regarding general approach towards life and followed through majority of lifespans by all elders and greats. But for certain times and issues of need, we need faith like Bangash has indicated and believe you me, Allah's promise is there so there would be help.

Yes, I could move little things without touching them while experimenting with psychokinesis.;)

 

[Aleph]

Salam Guys:

The seeming contradiction between [MENTION=24375]AsifAmeer[/MENTION] and [MENTION=10706]Bangash[/MENTION] is only because of the fine difference between 'aql (rationality) and naql (tradition). I think a lot of times people tend to misread the other because of their innate bias for one of these 2 disciplines. I think this whole conversation stemmed from a discussion on economics and I haven't had the time to follow it from beginning, but here is what could help:

Allah (SWT) is able to do all things (wa huwa 'ala kulli shai'in qadeer). Allah (SWT) also transcends the relativity of space and time - after all even these are His creations. Rationale is also a creation of Allah (SWT). He has gifted this very unique gift to us humans and the jinns. Now, where we tend to go wrong is that we sometimes get chained to these gifts and try to think of Allah in these relative concepts. Therefore, any act of God that does not conform to reason becomes 'ungodly' to those who are chained to their rationality. Similarly, a lot of traditionalists can end up rejecting acts of God when it doesn't conform to what they have been taught as to how 'God behaves'.

While it is easy to point out the flaws in the rationalists I am sure many of you might be thinking how can traditionalists deny acts of God? Well, think about the following scenario: Can Allah forgive atheists and admit them into Paradise? A pure traditionalist will echo a resounding NO! They will try to present evidence from the Qur'an and Sunnah that Allah (SWT) states in categoric terms that He will punish those who disobey Him etc etc. But the question will STILL remain - Can God forgive those whom He has promised punishment? In other words, can God renege on His Promise?

People who understand theology (kalam) will tell you that these debates are where some traditionalists lost the plot. What they basically ended up saying was that God CANNOT and is UNABLE to act against what He Says. This becomes a blatant contradiction over the above mentioned quote of "Allah is able to do all things". Some will also consider this as "Lying" that if Allah were to first promise punishment and then eventually forgive then this constitutes lying, which is an ugly act. And how can God perform ugly acts?

All these problems and contradictions come because people chain Allah to His own created things. They forget that Allah has not only created Lies, but He has created Shaytan the accursed as well. These relative concepts DO NOT apply to Him. As the sole Owner, Creator, Sustainer and Destroyer of the entire Universe, Allah (SWT) can do what HE Wills and none can question Him. Therefore, on this matter, you should know the following:

1- Allah is able to act in contradiction to what He has Promised. He doesn't become incapacitated by His Words.
2- The concept of Lying can never be applied to Allah because it is Allah who created Truth and Falsehood in this world. Falsehood is only bad for us because He decreed it to be bad for us. HE could have very easily Willed it to be the exact opposite!
3- Opposites like "truth vs falsehood" or "right or wrong" apply only to the creation who are chained in relativism. Allah is Absolute and therefore all of His Acts are NEUTRAL. They cant be defined as right or wrong as how we define our acts.
4- Allah will NOT act in contrary to what He has Said as per HIS OWN DECISION. He has decided not to act in contrary to His Speech, otherwise He s fully able to do so.

Why did I go off on this tangent you might ask? Well, this was just to illustrate that we CANNOT predict God's Plans or Acts. As humans we try to understand His Reality by all kinds of abilities that He has given us - rationality, tradition, experience etc. But these are all just tools and we often end up 'chaining' Allah to one of these tools that He has given us to seek Him.

That is why, even in the matter of economics, despite all the thousands and millions of years of our existence, we haven't been able to come up with an exact science on how to run the economics of mankind (let alone the trees, insects, animals, fish et al). Allah is The Sustainer and we can only try to understand and run economics as per how we think is best. However, let us never forget that it is eventually Allah who is in control.

I will turn your attention to the story of Sayyiduna Sulayman (AS) and how He asked Allah to let him run the economic affairs of all of Allah's creation. Hazrat Sulayman (AS) was granted this wish and he very soon found out that we incapable of doing even a small fraction of what Allah has been doing all these years.

Therefore, empires come and go; systems come and go; tsunamis and earthquakes come and go; dinosaurs came and went; newer viruses and creations are coming and going - these are all part of Allah's endless Qudrah (Power). He will keep opening up realities to us and there is nothing wrong if we try to work within our rational sciences so long as we remember that Allah cannot be chained by it.

tags: [MENTION=23319]Temojin[/MENTION], [MENTION=14890]mrk123[/MENTION]

 

[Aleph]

[MENTION=24375]AsifAmeer[/MENTION]:

By the way, Logic itself is a relevant concept. What is logical in one context could be illogical in another context. The problem with christian theology is that it completely debased revelation in its quest to conform to logic. 'Theology' comes from the Greek words "Theo" (God) and "Logos" (Reason), which means "to understand God by Logic".

You must have heard of the term "axioms"? Axiom is what logic and reasoning rests on. An axiom is an assumed truth that has no logical explanation, but it HAS to be accepted in order for all the rest to make sense. For example, "parallel lines converge at infinity" is an axiom. Similarly, modern-day Physics is based on a lot of axiomatic theories as well. Christianity defies the Attributes of God that have to do with rigor/wrath. So, for Christians, Gos is LOVE and God cannot be "Al Muntaqim" (The Avenger) as is taught by Islam. Similarly, Christian logicians believe God to be "Merciful" (Ar-Rahman), but they reject Him to be "Al Jabbar" (which has more connotations of wrath).

So Christian Theology is based on axiomatic principles that are inconsistent with what God has given news of Himself. Therefore, Christians are unable to explain acts of God such as earthquakes or diseases (which kills countless innocents) etc. It is just inconsistent with their concept of a "Loving God". Whereas for us Muslims, the world is a never-ending relationship between the 99 attributes of God Almighty and therefore you will see the instances of Mercy and the instance of Punishment etc. It is all part of His Qudrah (Power) and how He has decided to run this world.

I agree with you that man has reason and intellect and is supposed to employ it for his own good and run his affairs. However, [MENTION=10706]Bangash[/MENTION] also has a fair point. Belief or Iman is mostly made up of things that are "unseen" (ghayb). And by "ghayb" it is meant all things that cannot be gauged by the sensory perceptions of man - sight, sound, smell, touch and taste. This is why Allah (SWT) has made insaan in 2 components - jism (the wordly relative) and the ruh (the transcendent realm).

To near perfection as a human it is a battle to achieve a good balance of both. That is why if [MENTION=10706]Bangash[/MENTION] is saying that it is wrong to plan around how there is a limited amount of fresh water supply then he is right and wrong at the same time! Right because, indeed, Allah (SWT) may well cause another way of bringing forth fresh water resource for Pakistan.

And he is wrong because Allah (SWT) does not expect mankind to base their thoughts on the sole hope that "Allah will provide" and stop acting. So it is good to plan and be prepared as you are propounding, [MENTION=24375]AsifAmeer[/MENTION].

 

[Bangash]

[MENTION=24375]AsifAmeer[/MENTION]:

By the way, Logic itself is a relevant concept. What is logical in one context could be illogical in another context. The problem with christian theology is that it completely debased revelation in its quest to conform to logic. 'Theology' comes from the Greek words "Theo" (God) and "Logos" (Reason), which means "to understand God by Logic".

You must have heard of the term "axioms"? Axiom is what logic and reasoning rests on. An axiom is an assumed truth that has no logical explanation, but it HAS to be accepted in order for all the rest to make sense. For example, "parallel lines converge at infinity" is an axiom. Similarly, modern-day Physics is based on a lot of axiomatic theories as well. Christianity defies the Attributes of God that have to do with rigor/wrath. So, for Christians, Gos is LOVE and God cannot be "Al Muntaqim" (The Avenger) as is taught by Islam. Similarly, Christian logicians believe God to be "Merciful" (Ar-Rahman), but they reject Him to be "Al Jabbar" (which has more connotations of wrath).

So Christian Theology is based on axiomatic principles that are inconsistent with what God has given news of Himself. Therefore, Christians are unable to explain acts of God such as earthquakes or diseases (which kills countless innocents) etc. It is just inconsistent with their concept of a "Loving God". Whereas for us Muslims, the world is a never-ending relationship between the 99 attributes of God Almighty and therefore you will see the instances of Mercy and the instance of Punishment etc. It is all part of His Qudrah (Power) and how He has decided to run this world.

I agree with you that man has reason and intellect and is supposed to employ it for his own good and run his affairs. However, [MENTION=10706]Bangash[/MENTION] also has a fair point. Belief or Iman is mostly made up of things that are "unseen" (ghayb). And by "ghayb" it is meant all things that cannot be gauged by the sensory perceptions of man - sight, sound, smell, touch and taste. This is why Allah (SWT) has made insaan in 2 components - jism (the wordly relative) and the ruh (the transcendent realm).

[HI]To near perfection as a human it is a battle to achieve a good balance of both. That is why if [MENTION=10706]Bangash[/MENTION] is saying that it is wrong to plan around how there is a limited amount of fresh water supply then he is right and wrong at the same time! Right because, indeed, Allah (SWT) may well cause another way of bringing forth fresh water resource for Pakistan.[/HI]

And he is wrong because Allah (SWT) does not expect mankind to base their thoughts on the sole hope that "Allah will provide" and stop acting. So it is good to plan and be prepared as you are propounding, [MENTION=24375]AsifAmeer[/MENTION].

میں نے جو کھا تھا وہ تھا ایمان اور یقین کے بارے میں- میں نے یہ نہیں کھا تھا کہ پلاننگ کرنا غلط ہے-اللہ خالق ہے خالق کا مطلب تخلیق کرنے والا بنانے والا سنوارنے والا اور تخلیق کرنے کے لئے سب سے پہلے اللہ کی قربت اہم ہے- انسان کی پلاننگ اگر انسانیت کی بھلائی کے لئے ہے تو یہ اللہ کی قربت حاصل کرنا ہے لیکن اگر صرف پیسے اور میٹریل فائدوں کے لئے ہے تو وہ نقصان دہ ہے- اگر اپ ایمان اور یقین رکھتے ہیں اللہ پر- تو پھر اللہ کہتے ہیں کہ اللہ کی قربت علم سے ہے- اب یہاں علم بھی دو حصوں پر مشتمل ہے جیسے روحانی جو انسان کے سوچ اور فکر کے لئے اہم ہے اور دوسرا میٹریل کے بارے میں جس کو ہم سائینس کہتے ہیں دونوں کی بیلنس سے انسان کی بقا ہے- اگر ان میں سے اپ ایک کا انتخاب کرینگے تو بیلنس خراب ہوجاتا ہے کوئی فرق نہیں پڑتا کونسے علم کا انتخاب اپ کرتے ہیں- اگر اپ صرف روحانی علم حاصل کرتے ہیں تو اپ کی جسمانی اور میٹریل کمزوریاں بڑتی ہیں اوردنیا میں انسانوں میں جمود کا اغاز ہوتا ہے اور اپ قدرتی آفات کا شکار ہونے لگ جاتے ہیں اگر آپس کی جنگوں کو مکمل طور پر بھول جائیں تو بھی - اسی طرح اگر اپ صرف سائینس کی علم کو اہمیت دینگے تو وہ اور بھی زیادہ خطرناک ہے ایک طرف سے انسان جانور بن جاتا ہے جبکہ دوسری طرف اپ کائنات پر کنٹرول حاصل کرلیتے ہیں اور انجام مکمل تباہی یا بڑی تباہیوں کا شکار ہوتا ہے اور یہ سب کچھ انسان اپنے ہاتوں کرلیتا ہے یہ قدرتی آفات نہیں ہوتے لیکن یہ قدرتی نظام میں ردبدل ہوتا ہے بڑے پیمانے پر انسان کے ہات سے - یہ دنیا اس طرح ہزاروں مرتبہ تباہ ہوئی ہےلیکن یہ سب کچھ آپکو تاریخ میں نظر نہیں آئیگا کیونکہ وقت کے ساتھ ساتھ سارے ثبوت ختم ہوجاتے ہیں مادے کی خاصیت کی وجھ سے- جو ثبوت اللہ کی طرف سے موجود ہیں موجودہ تاریخ سے وہ کافی ہیں سمجھنے کے لئے ​

 

[Temojin]

1-Allah hasn't created lies, it is the manner of Makhlooq to deviate from the right path and tell lies.

2- To attribute any sort of Qubah (even the possibility of it if Allah wills and Allah can but will not do) to Allah is itself a blasphemy.

3- Allah didn't create shaitan, Allah created a jinn which was named Azazeel and it later acted upon its own will and fell to the degree of iblees.

4- Allah never acts against His own promises because Allah is Aleem and already knows what is going to happen so even the question of this capability for going against His own word is a nonexistent concept.

5- Allah is Aleem and knows things from the beginning till the end so to imply human interpretation upon going against or going with His words is something we should refrain from.

6- It is Nass e Quran that Allah doesn't do against His own word so to even think otherwise makes one go against Nass which is kufr.

7- When the possibility of such thing isn't there and also the logic that Allah can do it but will not do it (Allah has decided not to go against His word) bounds us not to even talk about something that is impossible.

8- Again, Allah already knows what is going to happen so Allah has promised what is going to be done so even questioning this makes one defy Allah's sifat of Aleem, Khabeer and Samee'.

Last but not the least, the provided discussion was not relevant to the discussion going on.

I hope this kind of discussion which was initiated by those philosophers who wanted to stain the basic concept of Islam by presenting such possibilities and later carried on by schools of thought which sprung right after British dominance in the Arab and the subcontinent will be refrained from as discussion about Allah's capabilities is strictly something which we shouldn't do and if one thinks its necessary to do so, I am out of it. This was one of the discussions which sowed the seeds of sectarianism, specially in the subcontinent so better avoid it. Also our intellects not even reach there where Allah's 'Ilm starts so we should better save ourselves.

I repeat, we should not participate in such discussions.

Asif and Bangash I hope you would know that this wasn't related to your discussion at all. Your discussion was about what happens in this world, happens according to a system and not about what Allah is capable to do because you can't ever judge the possibility of what Allah can do as it denies the concept of being omnipotent and an absolute power (but to prove the point of omnipotence by creating possibilities like an all-knowing creator Allah to be able to go against own word is totally absurd is out of question). Moreover, your discussion was also not about the issue that Allah has created good or bad but how things go in this world.

@AsifAmeer @Bangash @wadaich @Aleph

 

[Aleph]

And there we have it... a PERFECT example of a 'traditionalist' questioning the Qudrah of Allah (SWT). So lies is created by someone besides Allah?

Secondly, no one said Allah WILL act against His Promise. Note: It was said that HE CAN IF HE WILLS. This means to say that it is in the Qudrah of Allah (SWT), however, he has made acting contrary to His Speech forbidden for Himself. Imam Taftazani and Imam Jurjani et al have written in detail about this.

Please note that in the books of Kalam it is mentioned very clearly how there is no such thing as "qabih" in the acts of Allah. All the acts of Allah are KHAYR.

In any case, you wonderfully made the point that I started out with.
[MENTION=24375]AsifAmeer[/MENTION]: So there you have it - its not just the rationalists who deny God and His Attributes, but also traditionalists.

1-Allah hasn't created lies, it is the manner of Makhlooq to deviate from the right path and tell lies.

2- To attribute any sort of Qubah (even the possibility of it if Allah wills and Allah can but will not do) to Allah is itself a blasphemy.

3- Allah didn't create shaitan, Allah created a jinn which was named Azazeel and it later acted upon its own will and fell to the degree of iblees.

4- Allah never acts against His own promises because Allah is Aleem and already knows what is going to happen so even the question of this capability for going against His own word is a nonexistent concept.

5- Allah is Aleem and knows things from the beginning till the end so to imply human interpretation upon going against or going with His words is something we should refrain from.

6- It is Nass e Quran that Allah doesn't do against His own word so to even think otherwise makes one go against Nass which is kufr.

7- When the possibility of such thing isn't there and also the logic that Allah can do it but will not do it (Allah has decided not to go against His word) bounds us not to even talk about something that is impossible.

8- Again, Allah already knows what is going to happen so Allah has promised what is going to be done so even questioning this makes one defy Allah's sifat of Aleem, Khabeer and Samee'.

Last but not the least, the provided discussion was not relevant to the discussion going on.

I hope this kind of discussion which was initiated by those philosophers who wanted to stain the basic concept of Islam by presenting such possibilities and later carried on by schools of thought which sprung right after British dominance in the Arab and the subcontinent will be refrained from as discussion about Allah's capabilities is strictly something which we shouldn't do and if one thinks its necessary to do so, I am out of it. This was one of the discussions which sowed the seeds of sectarianism, specially in the subcontinent so better avoid it. Also our intellects not even reach there where Allah's 'Ilm starts so we should better save ourselves.

I repeat, we should not participate in such discussions.

Asif and Bangash I hope you would know that this wasn't related to your discussion at all. Your discussion was about what happens in this world, happens according to a system and not about what Allah is capable to do because you can't ever judge the possibility of what Allah can do as it denies the concept of being omnipotent and an absolute power (but to prove the point of omnipotence by creating possibilities like an all-knowing creator Allah to be able to go against own word is totally absurd is out of question). Moreover, your discussion was also not about the issue that Allah has created good or bad but how things go in this world.

@AsifAmeer @Bangash @wadaich @Aleph

 

[Omrkhan]

And I thought the thread was about economy. Thanks for derailing the thread.

 

[Temojin]

[MENTION=28031]Aleph[/MENTION] you are again going overboard. Please stop it. Makhlooq ke qubah ko Khaliq ke ooper daal rahay ho. I thought you would stop being such a blind follower but yes you wouldn't stray even a bit from bloody gangohi and his associates. Pagan teachings of satan and lies are also created by the creator itself. If azazeel went to become iblees on his own, lies also have their place because of shortcomings of insan and jinn.

You stay happy with your pagan god, I am happy with Allah. And please don't address me from now onward as you would insist upon blasphemy again and again. Your pagan god creates lies but doesn't utter them but my Allah doesn't create anything which is bad and as a human I have these shortcomings. Please refrain from such posts or I would here copy and paste the smelly rats of your elders in faith and traitors of Islam as well as Pakistan till date.How easily would you people make Muslims fall for the thing started by our enemies to raise a finger upon us. You know the rest of the dialogue which people present while having a debate? If Allah has created lies and can utter them but doesn't upon His own will, what proof do you have that Quran isn't part (muazAllah) truth and part lie because you damn know that what Allah's will is. Trying to sugarcoat a filthy aqeedah with words only. Allah created lies but as Allah's each act is khair,................. wow!!! So you lie for khair also? Why would you then raise a finger upon taqiyah then? Anyway, I am out of this thread, may Allah forgive me for knowing that a filthy rat would come out and still present my point.

[MENTION=24375]AsifAmeer[/MENTION] yaar get this guy off of my back now. His will to become the winner and have the last say is again playing the same game. I will now answer a single line on this thread anymore so if you could, please ask mods to close the thread as he is here to only promote sectarianism upon his extensive skills of googling. I am utterly aghast and enraged at him as he would only try to become easy as a ploy and then start his games once again. Look at his happiness when writing "you wonderfully proved my point". Anyway, I seriously feel sorry for the moment when I started to comment here again.

 

[Aleph]

[MENTION=23319]Temojin[/MENTION]:

Not interested in the least bit to respond to your bakwas. As someone rightly pointed out, the thread has been derailed by your's truly. BTW, there is no difference of opinion on the fact that Lies is created by Allah (SWT). The only ones who said it wasn't were the Mu'tazilites. So you clearly don't have any idea of what you are talking about. Otherwise I am very sure you couldn't handle the heat if I started discussing this matter in its actual nomenclature. I am sure you have no idea about jawaz 'aqli, mustahhil dhaati wa 'aradi, wuqu', khalf al-wa'eed etc. Jahilon say kya behes karna?
[MENTION=24375]AsifAmeer[/MENTION]

The digression was only to show to you that every time an overtly religious guy tries to nitpick and see too much into your comments on understanding economics from a scientific perspective, then you can remind them how they themselves are guilty of what they claim to denounce you for :)

Was-salamu alaykum

@Aleph you are again going overboard. Please stop it. Makhlooq ke qubah ko Khaliq ke ooper daal rahay ho. I thought you would stop being such a blind follower but yes you wouldn't stray even a bit from bloody gangohi and his associates. Pagan teachings of satan and lies are also created by the creator itself. If azazeel went to become iblees on his own, lies also have their place because of shortcomings of insan and jinn.

You stay happy with your pagan god, I am happy with Allah. And please don't address me from now onward as you would insist upon blasphemy again and again. Your pagan god creates lies but doesn't utter them but my Allah doesn't create anything which is bad and as a human I have these shortcomings. Please refrain from such posts or I would here copy and paste the smelly rats of your elders in faith and traitors of Islam as well as Pakistan till date.How easily would you people make Muslims fall for the thing started by our enemies to raise a finger upon us. You know the rest of the dialogue which people present while having a debate? If Allah has created lies and can utter them but doesn't upon His own will, what proof do you have that Quran isn't part (muazAllah) truth and part lie because you damn know that what Allah's will is. Trying to sugarcoat a filthy aqeedah with words only. Allah created lies but as Allah's each act is khair,................. wow!!! So you lie for khair also? Why would you then raise a finger upon taqiyah then? Anyway, I am out of this thread, may Allah forgive me for knowing that a filthy rat would come out and still present my point.

@AsifAmeer yaar get this guy off of my back now. His will to become the winner and have the last say is again playing the same game. I will now answer a single line on this thread anymore so if you could, please ask mods to close the thread as he is here to only promote sectarianism upon his extensive skills of googling. I am utterly aghast and enraged at him as he would only try to become easy as a ploy and then start his games once again. Look at his happiness when writing "you wonderfully proved my point". Anyway, I seriously feel sorry for the moment when I started to comment here again.