Pakistan, religion, secularism & tribalism

eysonm · Jan 28, 2012

itna bara thread. cant even go though it

Mughal1 · Feb 25, 2012

Mughal1 · Apr 10, 2012

Mughal1 · May 14, 2012

Umar Vadillo at the 1st World Conference on Riba (Nov. 2010)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjqlwGk3sCQ&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwvf1O7AfUY&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAq1AGjeD-A&feature=relmfu

(33/49) Islam & Banking obaidullah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQS4pEUBANs&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piCvD3Hg8Qo&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_0bk4yePAE&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg1X2dAYNe0&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMdF93KUF_8&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmUWyEueoIs&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auaRTuseBIk&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msp4J-HWnjw&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUgjQLQ2OkA&feature=relmfu

RIBAA and BAYEE are opposing terms used in the quran to define economic basis by the quran for the human society that is based upon the quran.

The foundation for which the quran claims to be revealed is peace=islam. The quran claims that peace between mankind is impossible unless people accept terms and conditions laid down in the quran.

Since quran wants people to live in peace and that peace is not possible till individuals are free from inflicting harm and destruction upon each other and that is not possible unless people have proper rights and responsibilities regarding each other and so treat each other fairly and compassionately. This means any economic system must be based upon brotherhood of mankind if it has to be qualified islamic because without cooperation between people for progress and prosperity mankind cannot have peace.

So all arguments are useless about economics that do not have this foundation to begin with. This is the main reason business for profit is unislamic because it is anti humanity. It is precisely the reason people undercut each other and go down the negative spiral of competition. This is why it is law of jungle ie evolutionary economics based upon idea of winner takes all or survival of the fittest.

So long as we approach economics from this angle the problems remain.

Only if we remove negative competition and base the idea upon human well being instead that we can have islamic basis. However to make islamic basis work we need to work very hard on getting people to be willing to accept the idea of hard work for the good of each other and thereby benefit as a community rather than as individuals.

Unless we can educate people into accepting the idea of proper islamic economic ideology, islamic ideology cannot be implemented. It is because not all people realise the benefits of it therefore those who do not will not be willing to work hard for others. This is why capitalism is successful because each person is forced to work for himself and people are happy to do that because alternative is only and only to accept working for others. Even those people who are suffering due to capitalism still have no idea what the problem is.

Precisely because people do not want to work for the good of others that is why capitalism gets them what they really want but they do not realise that strongest will take all in the end and so the weakest sections of the communities will be left to suffer and die a painful death. It is because a person develops more and more uncaring mindset and attitude towards others in order to win. This is why till a lot more world suffers consequences for adopting to capitalism things are not going to change.

We all see what rich are doing anywhere and everywhere today but we are all still supporting same ideologies that bring us all the bad news. It shows how much human we are and how much animals we are.

The solution in my view lies in mixed economic system. What do I mean by mixed economic system is controlled capitalism. It should not be given free rein rather the top end should be bootstrapped to its bottom end by way of permanent legislation that stops its from going out of control resulting in complete break down of human society. However this cannot be done unless there is international agreement between nations and that agreement is fully enforced. In other words international cooperation is necessary to stop capitalism ruining our world.

There must be set a reasonable maintainable minimum standard internationally for individuals in all societies and all national governments should be bound by that standard and there must be set up an international institution that ensures that funds are available to all societies directly for this purpose. For example, there should be free education for all up to age of 24 years. After that there should be work available for all who can work no matter where they are. Capital should be only and only in hands of those who are good at exploiting human resource to its full potential. All who can must be made to work till age of retirement

For muslim only economy muslims can work as blocks of people the while the world is not convinced about harmful and destructive properties of capitalism. Within muslim states economy should be run on basis of one ummah but efforts must be made to convince the rest of the worlds about benefits of human friendly economic system.

RIBAA does not mean capital plus interest as mullahs define it but that a person must not work on basis of individualism ie just work for one's own success at the expense of all others. This is what destroys a society. It is making a living at the expense of others rather than working for the society as a whole. So profiting from anything as individuals is wrong in quranic context and that is what quran talks about throughout.

One has to read verses of the quran where people are stopped from selling verses or revelations of God for petty or personal gains. Islam is all about society not individualism. Individual is only important in islam in social context. So mullahs are wrong in trying to tell us interest is wrong but interest to them means principle plus usury or compound interest. It is all about profiteering through losses of rest of people in the society.

BAYEE means agreement ie abiding by constitution. So in islam humanity is basis not profit. People are supposed to work for benefiting each other not for harming and destroying each other.

Capitalism or communism or any other ism cannot be justified as islamic just by tinkering around the edges rather there is set purpose to all this trade and commerce to benefit mankind. In islam well being of individual and his society is of foundational importance, not making money. This is why islam is all about brotherhood not a random collection of people who are ready to cut each other's throat by way of under cutting each other. By strength of arms, by ideas or by wealth. This is why imperialism by kings and mullahs and capitalists is condemned by the quran.

Unless one understands this clearly one cannot understand what quran means by words ribaa and bayee.

The quran is unique and stands alone when it comes to divine manifesto and constitution and that is because Allah alone is God not any prophet, so only and only he alone has the right to rule through his provided constitution.

Hadith does not have this function at all because the prophet is not God so he does not have the right to rule. This is very basic truth ummah needs to accept.

If the prophet is not the ruler then what is his job according to his ruler ie God? His job is to deliver divine message and if people accept it and come to him for formation of a good human society that he organises them as per quranic teachings as a constitution for a good human society.

Therefore hadith is there to tell us how did prophet fulfil his mission.

It is like a country has a constitution and people implement the constitution and whatever goes-on on daily basis is reported by the reporters in the newspapers etc. From this it should be clear that importance of hadith is great but it serves a different purpose from the quran. Quran is constitution the hadith is not. Therefore using hadith to form laws is fine in the sense that how prophet formed laws within given quranic limitations under his circumstances in situations that faced him in his time. Using the very same laws for our time under our situation is not the right way of using the hadith. This would mean that we are trying to hold still the time, the circumstances and the situations, which is impossible.

So mullah driven islam is therefore totally wrong because they want to live in 7th century arabia that no longer exists. The world has moved on and today we are in 21st century.

If today anyone wants to use camels and donkeys and tents and wants to write quran on bones and skin that is up to him but that is not law of islam and it cannot be. Stupidity is no answer to anything thinking is. Moreover living in one's own time is proven from the quran because the last prophet did not live like the first prophet. Each prophet lived in his own time adopting all there was except things that were not consistent with his God given revelation.

The revelation of God always set the limits and the prophets and their followers simply made the laws within those God set limits to suit their time and circumstances and situations and that is clearly told in the quran. No prophet was ever given the right to rule the people. Had this right been given then what would be the difference between ruling of a king and a prophet? One man is no slave to another man. This is islam.

Coming to formation of laws in islam, neither the quran nor the hadith give us list of laws, instead we have some laws in the quran and some in the hadith just for example so that by knowing them we could make laws ourselves according to given formulas in the quran and the hadith. Let me explain what that means. It is like in the book of maths we are not interested objectively in solved examples but formulas to solve mathematical problems if we ever come acorss them. Likewise the quran gives us rules for making laws for different situations and circumstances. Once we understand how to legislate then we can make any laws that we need as a community or country or people.

The quran sets out limits=hudood, we cannot make laws against set out hudood but we can make laws which do not clash with those limits. These laws we make because we need them. This is why ummah is given the right to consultation with each other as regard matters of concern for the community. The laws that are not in the quran are called derived laws or islamic jurisprudence or fiqh laws ie laws made by people in light of the quranic guidance.

There are basically two categories of commandments dos and don'ts. All regarding which we have no dos or don'ts in the quran are left to ummah to decide for themselves. The main thing to keep in mind when we legislate is the purpose of revelation ie to bring about and maintain a peaceful and prosperous human community. The other set limits or terms and conditions or guidelines are freedom, justice, fairness, compassion, brotherhood, progress and prosperity. We are told to ensure each person is free from harmful and destructive control of any other person ie no man is slave of any other. We must fight for establishing justice for all and must deal with each other fairly with compassion. We must not oppress and suppress each other nor be unjust and unfair with each other or be cruel to each other or have any animosity towards each other. We must ensure our progress and prosperity not stagnation, regression and poverty of all sorts. All this is necessary or we will not be able to secure peaceful existence for ourselves as human beings.

So one can see how quran guides us for making laws and enforcing them properly. It does not take side of any person be one father or mother or child, administrator or member of general public. The quran just sets out limits. Within these limits we are free to do as we deem necessary as per our own needs and desires. Word hudood is used in two different ways in the quran ie one as set limit and other as quranic set out penalty for a crime. This becomes clear from the context of the quran. The other penalties we set out by ourselves as a community for laws we need to have are called TAZEER. For example the quran tells us what to do with a person who murders someone innocent. It does not tell us what to do with a person who is involved in drugs smuggling. This is up to ummah to decide what to do with a person who smuggles illegal drugs. So the islamic state shoora can set up a legislative body to make law about it and set out penalties for it. These penalties will become islamic law provided they on one hand are within limits set out in the quran and on the other become need of the ummah due to problems caused by people involved in drug trafficking.

The hadith can guide us as to how prophet and his followers dealt with matters facing them at that time under their own circumstances. If anything can still work in our time then that saves us time but if not at least we can see from the example of the prophet how he legislated so that we too could legislate likewise. If circumstances and situations end up same then yes, same laws could be applied but if things are different then new laws need to be brought in along same guidelines for same purposes to keep our human society running smoothly, progressively and peacefully.

Basically Allah want us to be peaceful people and try to ensure peace for others. For this purpose he set for us terms and conditions, rights and responsibilities, rules and regulations or simply guidelines. commandments ie dos and don'ts were necessary because if certain things people do not do then they cannot attain peace and likewise if certain things they do then again peace cannot be achieved. Likewise not all laws were given in the quran instead some rules can be derived from the quran to add further laws to what is there according to set rules as and when needs arise for us to have those rules. For example, we are commanded to ensure freedom, justice, fairness, compassion, brotherhood, progress and prosperity so that mankind could be in peace. At the same time we are told not to allow oppression, suppression, injustice, unfairness, cruelty, animosity, regression, stagnation and poverty of various kinds because if we did allow any of these then again we will not be able to have peace. Thus quran sets limits in various way about different things. Running a human society not only depends on permanent values but also on things people come up with or come across various things from time to time eg once upon a time there were no cars and plans so there were no roads nor laws about roads. However as cars came about and plans then related laws became necessary in order to regulate society about these things. This is why there is a divide between set limits in the quran and limits people set in order to run their society smoothly. Just as there are limits set by Allah and limits set by society itself within set limits of Allah so there are penalties set by Allah and penalties set by society itself to ensure people obey laws. The purpose of penalty is not to punish people till they obey law but to prepare people to realise the importance of an organised society because that makes life easy for everyone part of that society. You cannot control people merely by punishments no matter how harsh. It has to be carrot and stick ie people need to be educated to realise what is benefit for them in obeying the laws. This is why penalties are mere tokenism to alert people when any of them falls of the track to help the person back on track. For example, you cannot stop a person from drinking if one has become addicted to drink because he no longer has control over his problem. It is because certain chemicals alter chemistry of the brain cells in such a way that person develops craving for it. The brain mechanism becomes so affected. So punishing such a person is actually inflicting cruelty on such a person who need medical attention.

This is why if a person kills some one before we bring him to justice we need to ensure the person is mentally fit to stand trial. The mitigating circumstances as well as personal circumstances must be taken in to account etc etc. This is why some things comes from quran as basis but others come from people themselves as they suit them and an amalgamation of both is termed shariah or islamic law. Even though quran is free from any mistake but people are not so when they deduce laws from the quran they may make mistakes and likewise when they make laws based upon quranic rules they may make mistakes and when they apply laws they may also make mistakes. In each case benefit of the doubt must always be given to the party that may have ended up on the receiving end if mistake was not discovered in time.

This is why just reading a penalty in a hadith book and thinking it is the law is not right because the law actually needs to be worked out from that if need be. Laws brought about by the prophet were example for followers in the sense that if they need laws then they too can form laws in a similar way. Those laws would however still be useful if the circumstances and situations still remain the same but would not apply if the changes came about with time and circumstances or situations changed. It is not a valid reason on its own that a law was brought in by a prophet. What is important is why the prophet brought in the law and if that reason is still valid then that law still applies otherwise not. This is clear from the quran that if halaal food is not available then to survive even haraam food becomes halaal. All because change in situation or cistumstance changes the application of law. If law of Allah only applies under certain circumstances and situation then law by prophet cannot be for all circumstances and situation either. This is why blanket statements by people that quran and hadith laws apply are not helpful and confuse because a person reads the verse or hadith and starts acting upon it not knowing how it is supposed to be worked out.

The main example of this is everyone says follow quran and sunnah and then sunnah becomes each and every word of the prophet and his deed and even his silence. This has caused major divisions in the ummah. All this because we failed to understand the role of the quran and role of the hadith and the role of ummah. Role of Allah and role of his messengers and role of his people.

Mughal1 · Jun 1, 2012

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Pakistan, religion, secularism & tribalism

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