Dear vitamin c, do you think the creation and the revelation could be used as proof of existence of God or not?
Regards and all the best.
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Dear vitamin c, do you think the creation and the revelation could be used as proof of existence of God or not?
Regards and all the best.
Dear cestmoi, no one will answer because mullas and mulla disciples as well as allaamas and their shagirds never think logically consistently. If they did, such discussion will have been long over and this world will have been a paradise made by humanity for itself with help and full support of each other for ensuring their own well being because that is what God sent his revelations for to mankind and not for mere lip service by people as they do in mandirs, temples, synagogues, churches and masjids etc.
How strange it is that no atheist, no agnostic, no hindu, no parsi, no jew, no christian and hardly any muslim has risen to the challenge of understanding the quranic text properly. Why humanity has failed so badly when it came to the proper understanding of the quranic text?
Regardless let us work together to break the ice in this regard.
To interpret word AL KAUSAR which is the title or heading or label of this surah 108 we need to go to the quran itself. https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/108/1/
Everyone who speaks urdu knows what word kaseer means ie kasrat or abundance of something. See 2/269 ie https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/2/269/
Here the quraan tells us whoever is given hikmah=wisdom ie ability to reason things out properly is given khairan kaseera ie goodness in abundance. The same verse is telling us hikmah is only given to him who want it ie who works hard for getting it. It does not mean you sit on musallaa and pray to God for hikmah instead do whjat need to be done to get hikmah. If you want children you need to get married and go through process of having children only then you will have children.
You want livelihood then for it and you will get it because that is the way God has set up his universe and things in it to work. Likewise there is a way to get wisdom to follow the way and get the wisdom and become wise.
Now let us read 36/2 and 3/164 ie https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/36/2/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/3/164/
They tell us the quran is the book of wisdom. Because humanity is given the quran it is given wisdom in abundance should it care to learn and benefit from it.
The question is, what wisdom does the quraan contain? The wisdom about how people should live in this world properly so that they end up having a life worth living with help and full support of each other by ensuring well being of each other.
What mullas have done is, they have imagined hoze kosar ie a river in paradise in hereafter and that way clothed the quranic message with their own false imagination and by doing so they covered up the actual message of the quran in this surah.
What verse 1 in surah kausar is telling us is, God has given the quran to humanity. ALKAUSAR is attribute of the quran according to the quran itself. Because humanity has the quran it has all the goodness God has offered to humanity for living sensibly in this world.
Let us now go to verse 2 of this surah. This verses uses two main words SALAAH and INHAR. One is interpreted by mullas prayer and other sacrifice. Mullas have no sense of the proper context of the quran which is it is a book of deen of islam and not of baseless beliefs and useless practises. What God is saying here is work towards forming a community network. When it is a network of roads and transport or communication we call it mawaslati nizaam even in urdu. This word has arabic origin.
In the same verse God is saying, make sacrifices for this mission ie learn and spread the message of the quran ie be missionaries for the quran so that you could educate yourselves and others and become a brotherhood of humanity.
Verse 3 of surah 108 along with surah 3/164 tells us, any party or group that opposes you people will end up harmed or destroyed or worse off because that is where ignorance and stubbornness leads. Because people who oppose goodness ie a good program, constitution and law cannot live a united, peaceful, progressive and prosperous life ever. In short they cannot get rid of troubles and fights from within. Why not? Because the quran tells people to live as an ummah ie live for ensuring well being of each other and any way of life other than deen of islam cannot be based upon anything other than on the foundation of personal gains at the expens eof each other. This is why the quran challenges humanity repeatedly, telling them you cannot bring about a proper human society by rejecting the quranic program, constitution and law.
In light of this quranic interpretation judge the nonsense of mullas and their followers. No wonder the quran seems a book of nonsense to the ignorant and foolish or unwise.
Regards and all the best.
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Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Define revelation and define proof.
The claim of God, ie the claim that there is a supernatural person somewhere in space, who created this universe of 100 billion Galaxies, each containing over 100 billion stars, and takes personal interest in what a group of apes do on a tiny piece of rock floating around one of the 100 billion stars of one of the 100 billion galaxies.
This is an extraordinary claim and it requires extra ordinary evidence. A book that contains guidance on how to live your life written by a man 1400 years ago in Arabia, who claimed that an Angel came to him in a cave. No one was there when this happened, no one can independently verify it. Also if you believe in him, there is personal benefit for him, he gets 10 wives, basically any woman he wants and king like status over Arabia.
So in a nutshell, you have to believe an extra-ordinary claim, based on claims that cannot be independently verified by a man who has a clear conflict of interest. Outside of this book there is no other piece of evidence in the outside world that even remotely supports this claim. This is not evidence, its foolishness.
You are making claims that enter the domain of human knowledge that is related to physics, biology, cosmology, in these fields we need real hard evidence. As long as we do not have this evidence, we cannot for sure say what happened before the Big Bang, everything else is just speculation.
I do not want to waste the rest of my life believing in hearsay that cant be independently verified.
The claim of God, ie the claim that there is a supernatural person somewhere in space, who created this universe of 100 billion Galaxies, each containing over 100 billion stars, and takes personal interest in what a group of apes do on a tiny piece of rock floating around one of the 100 billion stars of one of the 100 billion galaxies.
This is an extraordinary claim and it requires extra ordinary evidence. A book that contains guidance on how to live your life written by a man 1400 years ago in Arabia, who claimed that an Angel came to him in a cave. No one was there when this happened, no one can independently verify it. Also if you believe in him, there is personal benefit for him, he gets 10 wives, basically any woman he wants and king like status over Arabia.
So in a nutshell, you have to believe an extra-ordinary claim, based on claims that cannot be independently verified by a man who has a clear conflict of interest. Outside of this book there is no other piece of evidence in the outside world that even remotely supports this claim. This is not evidence, its foolishness.
You are making claims that enter the domain of human knowledge that is related to physics, biology, cosmology, in these fields we need real hard evidence. As long as we do not have this evidence, we cannot for sure say what happened before the Big Bang, everything else is just speculation.
I do not want to waste the rest of my life believing in hearsay that cant be independently verified.
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Dear vitamin c, without going into detail, proof is the best possible explanation about something. If you disagree then try and prove anything you want without using best possible explanation for it.
Regards and all the best.
Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
The best possible explanation does not always mean truth. In the old days the best explanation for Earthquakes was a turtle holding the Earth on its back. This is also known as an argument from ignorance. Meaning if you do not know enough about a particular phenomena you make up explanations without any evidence backing it.
Intellegent people do not rely on best possible explanations, but rather delay judgement until we have enough evidence to support a particular claim until.
Intellegent people do not rely on best possible explanations, but rather delay judgement until we have enough evidence to support a particular claim until.
Dear vitamin c, the best possible explanation can only be that which cannot be proven wrong. If an explanation can be proven wrong then it cannot be the best possible explanation. This is why you simply explain things and see if any better explanation comes along but if you have managed to explain things the way they are or are supposed to be then that explanation will always stand ie nothing will ever be able to falsify it.
This is why one can never eliminate possibility of existence of God. The idea that God is the creator of this universe and that he revealed his revelations still stands as it was first conceived by a person the very first time. It stood the test of time so far and there is no possibility of it ever being proven wrong in future either.
All we have been doing is gaining further knowledge about things since then which helped us eliminate our false concepts or ideas about God which people imagine as well as helped us refine our ideas about other things. Increase in our knowledge has helped us refine our concepts about God and his revealed messages. That is all. Increase in our knowledge has helped us know God and ourselves better.
All because we can never create something out of absolute nothingness. Intelligence and consciousness are non-material things which could not come about unless someone intelligent had designed things to end up like this for his own purposes. If matter was intelligent and conscious then whole of it has to be so but we do not experience or observe that. We only see dead and living things and not all living things are equally conscious or or intelligent. This is why existence of some intelligent being is absolutely necessary who is separate from matter or energy.
Moreover where is sense in living confused, harmful and destructive lives if we can live blissfully with dignity as well as secure? We could wait as you say till we get the kind of proof you are looking for but that is practically not possible for human beings. Moreover that sort of proof is something that can never materialise. Meanwhile we will have to keep suffering by hands of each other, is that worth it? I do not think so.
So you can see my explanation of things makes better sense when the thing is looked at sensibly as a whole and not a bit here and bit there. From my stand point people like you look trouble makers because they seem to be responsible for keeping people confused and as a result in terrible suffering by hands of each other due to waiting for the ultimate answer which is never forth coming whereas the real solution for all our problem stares us all in the face in form of the quran.
You have read my explanation of the shortest quranic surah right from with in the quran have you not? Had you used your head the right way to decode the quranic message you will not have turned the way you have. I did inform you in my other posts why people turn atheists and agnostics etc, because they read misinterpretations of the quranic text. The difference between me and other people is, when I saw what was wrong I tried to work out what could be right. However others either follow things blindly or leave things alone. This is why I equally blame people who claim to be muslims or nonmuslims for the mess in the world because they all played their part in it that way. Almost all muslims confuse each other as well as nonmuslims about deen of islam and nonmuslims instead of using their heads follow them around telling them you cannot be right because our science says this and our rational thinking says that instead of rejecting what muslim say wrong about the quran and looking for what could be right. The end result of all this is a messed up human world of which we all are parts.
Regards and all the best.
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Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
As I have already said the best possible solution is not good enough. Its basically another term for an argument from ignorance. Unless we have hard evidence pointing towards an explanation, we do not just get to make up explanations to fill the void. Just google why argument from ignorance is a logical fallacy.
Also if you cannot prove something wrong, it does not make the explanation correct. Few thousand years ago there was no way to prove wrong an idea that there is a giant turtle under the Earth. You cannot prove wrong that there is a Golden Unicorn orbiting a star somewhere in the universe. This is another logical fallacy called shifting the burden of proof. If you are making a claim, the onus is on you to provide evidence for that claim, not on the person rejecting the claim to disprove it. In other-words, the people do not have to provide evidence to disprove God, but rather, you have to provide evidence to prove it and until then there is no good reason for anyone to believe in it. Not being able to dis-prove God does not make it likely that a God exists, in the same way that not being able to disprove tooth fairies or Golden Unicorn does not make it likely that they exist.
Also if you cannot prove something wrong, it does not make the explanation correct. Few thousand years ago there was no way to prove wrong an idea that there is a giant turtle under the Earth. You cannot prove wrong that there is a Golden Unicorn orbiting a star somewhere in the universe. This is another logical fallacy called shifting the burden of proof. If you are making a claim, the onus is on you to provide evidence for that claim, not on the person rejecting the claim to disprove it. In other-words, the people do not have to provide evidence to disprove God, but rather, you have to provide evidence to prove it and until then there is no good reason for anyone to believe in it. Not being able to dis-prove God does not make it likely that a God exists, in the same way that not being able to disprove tooth fairies or Golden Unicorn does not make it likely that they exist.
Dear vitamin c, all explanations are only purposefully complete not perfect in every way this is why I define proof as best possible explanation. What it means is, other explanations are also possible but that they are not as good as the best possible explanation. All explanations leave some detail out which if we had will be better but if we do not then we still have a reasonable best explanation.
An explanation is a detailed account of or about something and each explanation has limited detail otherwise it will lead to explanations of explanation phenomenon ie an unending chain of explanations. This is why a proof also has its limitations. We can only take an argument up to a stage and that is it. We have limited life span so we cannot argue over things for ever. This is the way the world is, so we cannot work outside the working of this world. This is why I think you are very confused regarding proof and proving.
You are saying acts of God in form of his revelation and creation cannot be proof of God's existence and guidance because a proof has to be something independent of these two things. You did not realise that nothing can be independent of this creation and revelation because there is nothing there other than the creation whereby God could prove his existence to mankind. Whatever needs to be done even if it is by God needs to be done within this creation and about this creation. This is why I said, if you accept possibility of existence of God then you must leave a door open for God to intervene through. It is true we cannot get in touch with God because we are very limited beings but God is not that limited that he cannot get in touch with us if he so wished. Had God left copies of the quraan for us under our pillows quietly we will not know about it, will we?
So we cannot dictate to God what he should or should not do or why or how etc. All we can do is examine the said evidence and see if it explains things purposefully properly or not. If it does then it is the proof and if it does not then it is not the proof. This is why if the quran explains things about this creation and we can see the explanation is good when we verify it then the qurann has served its purpose for which God sent it for us human beings to guide us through of this vast universe.
We are important for God not because we are some huge living beings but because God created us for his purpose. Universe God has made for human beings to travel through and see power of God in order to realise majestic nature of God. This is why he created us babies instead of grown up people. You need to read the quran properly and see how it explains things about humanity and the rest of creation and creatures etc as a whole picture or process. A bit from here and a bit from there turns anything into a senseless mess because a picture can only appear when at least a reasonable number of dots have become apparent as they should. The quran is not a complete detail of each and everything in this creation in every way but a purposeful detail of things that was needed for serving purpose of God in respect of humanity.
You think God should have told us in maximum possible detail about each and everything he created but you do not ask yourself what good could that have done for humanity in this world the way it works? God could have given the book that is in your mind but it will have been utterly useless for us because we could never read it from cover to cover. Think about how many different kinds of plants are there. How many different kinds of animals are there. How many people are there in the world. Just their names and addresses will need a huge book to copy. This is why your logical is not consistent regarding God, his creation and revelation. It is easy for you to call upon logical fallacies which have not yet been worked out in light of a larger picture of things. The day you have worked them out fully then you will realise how wrong you were in using them the way you use them.
May be you need to go through some explanations about philosophy and psychology.
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Regards and all the best.
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Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Again, I repeat, an explanation or even best explanation is not good enough. This is because, the best explanation without any external evidence supporting it is just another argument from ignorance.
Argument from Ignorance
Its like saying, I do not have any evidence to tell me where this universe can come from. My personal intuition tells me that it is God, therefore God exists.
This is the same things as ancient civilizations saying, I don't know how earthquakes happen, but my personal intuition tells me there is something under the ground, therefore it must be a giant tortoise shaking the Earth.
Your intuition is evolved for use on this 3 dimensional planet, you cannot use it in the context of a multi -dimensional universe, this is why we need physics and advanced mathematics to help us. Any theory about the origins of universe must be supported by math and other physical evidences. Without this, its just another tortoise argument from ignorance.
A book is not evidence
Saying that Quran or revelation is proof of Gods existence is the same thing as me writing a Book that says I am God. And when people ask me proof for my divinity, I refer them to read my book. Lets stop this nonsense. Evidence has to be external and independently verifiable by third party. For example Evolution is proven through dozens of independent studies including, palaeontology, archaeology, genetics, embryology etc.
In order for something to be considered as a theory, you need to have a few things...
1. It needs to be independently verified from different fields of study.
2. There needs to be a condition such that if met, it would disprove your theory.
3. It must make a prediction about the future.
4. It can be tested and verified by third party.
For Evolution:
1. It is cross confirmed by dozens of fields of study
2. If you find a rabbit fossil in a bed-rock from the Jurrassic period, that will disprove evolution
3. Every species you will find in the fossil record will be a transitionary species. For example for human evolution, the prediction was that we will find a primitive human like ape that was a transition between us and older ancestors.. We found dozens of these transitionary species.
4. Anyone can go to the Smithsonians Museum and physically see all this evidence. You can also test the different evolutionary models, DNA, Endogenous Retroviruses in Lab...
Same conditions apply to Big Bang theory and all others that are considered to be proven beyond doubt.
That being said, an explanation is just a weak hypothesis, it needs evidence and meet some criteria for it to become a theory and mainstream human knowledge. God hypothesis or explanation however meets none of the criteria and has zero evidence.
Argument from Ignorance
Its like saying, I do not have any evidence to tell me where this universe can come from. My personal intuition tells me that it is God, therefore God exists.
This is the same things as ancient civilizations saying, I don't know how earthquakes happen, but my personal intuition tells me there is something under the ground, therefore it must be a giant tortoise shaking the Earth.
Your intuition is evolved for use on this 3 dimensional planet, you cannot use it in the context of a multi -dimensional universe, this is why we need physics and advanced mathematics to help us. Any theory about the origins of universe must be supported by math and other physical evidences. Without this, its just another tortoise argument from ignorance.
A book is not evidence
Saying that Quran or revelation is proof of Gods existence is the same thing as me writing a Book that says I am God. And when people ask me proof for my divinity, I refer them to read my book. Lets stop this nonsense. Evidence has to be external and independently verifiable by third party. For example Evolution is proven through dozens of independent studies including, palaeontology, archaeology, genetics, embryology etc.
In order for something to be considered as a theory, you need to have a few things...
1. It needs to be independently verified from different fields of study.
2. There needs to be a condition such that if met, it would disprove your theory.
3. It must make a prediction about the future.
4. It can be tested and verified by third party.
For Evolution:
1. It is cross confirmed by dozens of fields of study
2. If you find a rabbit fossil in a bed-rock from the Jurrassic period, that will disprove evolution
3. Every species you will find in the fossil record will be a transitionary species. For example for human evolution, the prediction was that we will find a primitive human like ape that was a transition between us and older ancestors.. We found dozens of these transitionary species.
4. Anyone can go to the Smithsonians Museum and physically see all this evidence. You can also test the different evolutionary models, DNA, Endogenous Retroviruses in Lab...
Same conditions apply to Big Bang theory and all others that are considered to be proven beyond doubt.
That being said, an explanation is just a weak hypothesis, it needs evidence and meet some criteria for it to become a theory and mainstream human knowledge. God hypothesis or explanation however meets none of the criteria and has zero evidence.
Dear vitamin c, you keep separating the link between the book and the universe whereas I am saying they are interlinked inseparably. The book explains things about the universe for mankind in various ways for different reasons. So that by looking at the universe from the point of view of the book people could live a life worth living in this world.
This is where I differ with mullas, philosophers and scientists etc as well as politicians, rulers and economists etc etc. Because they think the book is useless without ever trying to understand it in a meaningful way ier the way this book is suposed to be studied. This is why I drew your attention to my interpretation of surah ALKAUSAR above for example. You never thought AL-KAUSAR is the quran not some river in paradise as mullas spread falsehood about it mainly due to their ignorance just like you are making silly claim about the quran without ever trying to understand its text properly in its proper context.
All I am doing is drawing attention of sensible to look at the quran in a very different way from what they have been told by mullas. The day you start studying the quran like me you too will become much more concerned than me about helping people understand its real message because it will unite humanity for its peace, progress and prosperity as a proper human community.
The quran has already told people what is going to happen to them in future if they will understand the quran properly and follow it faithfully and what will happen to them if they will not. Following the quran has many rewards or benefits in this very world and not following the quiran has many problems and losses for people and again in this world and we can all see in front of our own eyes what is happening in our human world and what has been happening in our human world in the past has been told in the quran also for the reason so that people take heed and do what is best for their future. All these are clear evidences which have been pointed out in the quran. It is using exactly the method you are talking about for proving its points.
The quran is not trying to prove its authenticity on its own just by its words alone and that is what people do not realise just like you. The day you realise the quran only tells about things that have happened already in this real world and that are happening in this world and that will happen in future but again in this world. So the quran is constantly being proven true all the time.
Moreover the way of life the quran points out for people to live by, the quran explains it in great detail and then challenges mankind to come up with an even better way of life if you can or at least something similar. They cannot but why not? Because the best possible way of life for humanity has been already told in the quran and any other way of life people will invent will always lead them into troublesome life by hands of each other due to being based upon foundation of personal gains at the expense of each other. Just as past people did and got what they wanted ie self destruction by hands of each other by living in this world the wrong way. The wrong way was always being bad to each other instead of being good to each other in meaningful way which mattered.
You and almost all others have many wrong concepts about the quran and the day people start correcting their wrong concepts about the quran they will start realising where they have been misled and by whom. Not by the quran but by mullas and their touts and supporters.
regards and all the best.
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Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
The book itself is a claim. You need evidence to to support claims. You cannot use books to prove anything. You cannot use a claim to prove another claim, thats called circular reasoning.
If I write a book and the book says I am God. Then I try to convince people to worship me and they ask me for proof and I tell them go read my book. So the book makes a claim I am God, I make a claim I am God, I then use the claim in my book as evidence. Do you see the problem? At the end of the day, people do not believe in Quran. You cannot use something they do not believe in, as an evidence to convince them of another thing they do not believe in (God). You need to have evidence outside of the claim that you are making.
For example I can write a book that claims the big bang happened. When people ask me for proof, I show them that everything is moving away from each other at an accelerated rate through a telescope, I then calculate where each galaxy would be given the age of the universe by other fields of study (13billion years +) and calculate that we all come from a single point, and then someone else discovers cosmic background radiation as another physical evidence (independent verification). This is how you support an explanation with evidence. The book itself is not the evidence, but rather the book has to be proven by outside evidence from our observation of our universe.
You can claim that the book is miraculous or makes prediction therefore God exists... Even this is a bad argument, we know that human beings are perfectly capable of writing books that are exceptional. And every scientific theory makes an accurate prediction. Its the same thing as a bee making exceptionally good honey and then claiming God did it. Or an ant building an exceptionally good Nest.
There is great amount of wisdom in books written by secular authors such as Marcus Aurelius, Aristotle, Plato and Fredric Nietzsche, each one of them unique and the exceptional books they wrote hundreds and even thousands of years ago are use to teach wisdom and ethics, in military, business schools and in large corporations.
If I write a book and the book says I am God. Then I try to convince people to worship me and they ask me for proof and I tell them go read my book. So the book makes a claim I am God, I make a claim I am God, I then use the claim in my book as evidence. Do you see the problem? At the end of the day, people do not believe in Quran. You cannot use something they do not believe in, as an evidence to convince them of another thing they do not believe in (God). You need to have evidence outside of the claim that you are making.
For example I can write a book that claims the big bang happened. When people ask me for proof, I show them that everything is moving away from each other at an accelerated rate through a telescope, I then calculate where each galaxy would be given the age of the universe by other fields of study (13billion years +) and calculate that we all come from a single point, and then someone else discovers cosmic background radiation as another physical evidence (independent verification). This is how you support an explanation with evidence. The book itself is not the evidence, but rather the book has to be proven by outside evidence from our observation of our universe.
You can claim that the book is miraculous or makes prediction therefore God exists... Even this is a bad argument, we know that human beings are perfectly capable of writing books that are exceptional. And every scientific theory makes an accurate prediction. Its the same thing as a bee making exceptionally good honey and then claiming God did it. Or an ant building an exceptionally good Nest.
There is great amount of wisdom in books written by secular authors such as Marcus Aurelius, Aristotle, Plato and Fredric Nietzsche, each one of them unique and the exceptional books they wrote hundreds and even thousands of years ago are use to teach wisdom and ethics, in military, business schools and in large corporations.
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Dear vitamin c, I did not say the quran in itself is proof in isolation from the real world realities. All I am saying is test the quran on its statements about real world realities. However my point is first learn proper way to interpret it properly so that you do not misinterpret it and then look for verification of its statements through wrong interpretations as people all over the world are doing already.
The quran is book from God only if it is free of conflict within itself as well as with respect to self evident facts in real world realities while it is explaining to human beings things about the universe etc.
You have given me example of theory of evolution and its verification but that is what I stated about the quran. The quran explains things about real world so those things verify its statements for those who can understand the quran properly as well as real world realities. Not one or the other. This is the problem with or between mullas and scientists. Each looks at its field of knowledge independent of the other and the result is we do not know the reveal;tion of God as we should nor we know the actual reality of this universe instead we have become a seriously confused people.
Just as mullas served kings perhaps our scientist also have ulterior motives whereby they stay aloof from the book from God. If a person was a proper scientist as well as a proper scholar of the quran then we could have had a perfect solution for our all problems of all sorts. I am hopeful things will soon start going in that direction. Why? Because more and more educated people are going to realise science on its own cannot explain full picture of our existence and mullas cannot explain what the quran is saying without interpreting the quran in light of real world realities.
regards and all the best.
Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
To claim that God writes books, you first need to prove that a God exists.
Until you prove that a God exists, the Quran is irrelavent.
Until you prove that a God exists, the Quran is irrelavent.
The_Choice
Senator (1k+ posts)
Dear vitamin c, we cannot ignore the quran and the universe when it comes to proof of existence of God and our guidance for living in this universe properly, why not? Because there is nothing else there which we could use as an explanation and its verification about existence of God and for our guidance for living in this universe properly. We need to have an explanation of the creation by its creator therefore we need the quran and we need the universe to explore it to see if the given explanation in the quran about the universe is correct. If we see that both are in agreement then we have no reason to reject them as proof of existence of God and his guidance for us for living in this world appropriately.
Your logic is breaking down here if you could realise it ie you are demanding an independent evidence for existence of God that has nothing to do with alleged revelation of God and the alleged creation of God. How is that possible would you care to explain? You yourself have said already there has to be an explanation of the thing and there has to be something whereby that explanation could be verified. I am saying there is ie an alleged God sent message and an alleged God created creation. All we need to do is verify both against each other by exploring both of them to see if they have the same origin or have been told lies.
If they could be verified against each other then we have an irrefutable proof that they originate from a source beyond human capability. This is what proves the quran a book that no human being could have written 1400 year back in time. Not only that but no human being can write such a factual book about the creation even today. This is why it is worth our time to study both the book and the universe and if proven true then they must be used as basis for our way of life so that with this guidance we could make this world a paradise for ourselves with help and full support of each other.
I realise that my explanation of the point may not be as detailed as you need it to be to help you understand my point but I can only try to help rest is up to yourself to work at it may be one day penny will drop.
You see the quran is the only book of its kind in the world when there are so many people living in this world and have lived before us for 1400 years and they have been writing so many books yet none ever thought let me write a book like the quran about God and his creation, why is that?
There are many reasons why you should study the quraan in depth and detail just as you have studied books about the universe written by people so that you could see what is special abut the quran and why I am so much for it. I find it fascinating ie the more I study it the more it opens up universal secrets.
Let me try and explain the relevance of the quran and the universe to existence of God in another way if I may. Suppose we both were walking along a road and we came across two very strange things for which we have no explanation at all other than themselves as to where they came from or who put them there or for what purpose etc etc but someone tells us they were sent for us by someone, what are we supposed to do? Just ignore them or explore them to see if what we are told is true in some way, especially if our worthwhile existence is fully dependent upon them? You want to ignore them till you first meet someone who sent them but I am saying it matters not whether we meet that someone or not let us study them and see if they are worthy of our time and if they are let us use them to benefit from them.
To me it seems you are prepared to live your life in confusion and chaos but I am not. The problem is what you are doing affects me and what I am doing affects you that is why we are arguing with each other. This is why people are fighting with each other through out our world. So in a sense you want things to continue the way they are and I am interested in stopping them because they are not good for either of us. This is why I am putting forth a way of compromise which offers both of us a win win situation whereas you want me to become a loser along with you. As I see things if you have better sense of judgement you will be forced by reason to join me instead of trying to make me join you because my faith in God is not totally baseless whereas you have nothing to offer in return so that I could join you.
Regards and all the best.
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PappuChikna
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
ok, samjha.
