Money, Usury and Jews. Why Jews were the "hated people"

[Keepinformed]

Jews are enemies of Islam.....

peronsal practices should not be linked with religion. Religion should be evaluated based on its teachings....

and no doubt Islam has the best teachings in the world...

Sure whatever makes you happy and helps you sleep at night.

 

[crankthskunk]

Jews are the smartest and the most hard working people I have worked with in my entire professional life so far. Their entire lives are devoted to their careers.

Opposite to the popular propaganda spread by the TV and print media, I have been cheated (if you want to label them by religion) over by more Muslims and Christians.

Also during the course of my company's outsourcing of force, Indians were a delight too. I am not sure about the Northern Hindu Indians but my entire dealings were homed in Kerala.
@AsifAmeer @Unicorn

I agree wholeheartedly with you. At my time of training, my reporting partner was a Old Jewish guy. He was delight to work with. He treated my like his son.
I was part of his family, so much so that his young daughter started to hit on me. But I firmly resisted the temptations.
Two weeks ago I visited the practice after over a decade, I was informed he died of cancer few years back.

Now in my new profession, I deal with Indians all the time. They are fine to work with, but very reserved and little bit timid. They tend to keep themselves to themselves and only mix with Indians, generally. I reserve judgement on them.
One thing is certain they have cornered the IT market in the UK and USA. Because of this there is lots of sentiments against them in both countries.

 

[Keepinformed]

I agree wholeheartedly with you. At my time of training, my reporting partner was a Old Jewish guy. He was delight to work with. He treated my like his son.
I was part of his family, so much so that his young daughter started to hit on me. But I firmly resisted the temptations.
Two weeks ago I visited the practice after over a decade, I was informed he died of cancer few years back.

Now in my new profession, I deal with Indians all the time. They are fine to work with, but very reserved and little bit timid. They tend to keep themselves to themselves and only mix with Indians, generally. I reserve judgement on them.
One thing is certain they have cornered the IT market in the UK and USA. Because of this there is lots of sentiments against them in both countries.

Finally a practical experience based responsible and true to life post without the mixing of media and mullah infested hate propaganda. Thank you crankthskunk.

 

[wmahmooood]

Sure whatever makes you happy and helps you sleep at night.

This is vital for our faith......

 

[Keepinformed]

This is vital for our faith......

Again, Mahmooood if hatred towards Jews makes your life spiritually better than it is right now, by all means camp the hate inside your heart.

You have already made up your mind to hate Jews because Islam preaches it. You have your values. You have your beliefs. Practice them the way you like.

Not that it matters but just adding 2 cents, keep it tight in your brain to store the hate in your heart and not in your practical actions. This is not 1940s.

 

[wmahmooood]

Again, Mahmooood if hatred towards Jews makes your life spiritually better than it is right now, by all means camp the hate inside your heart.

You have already made up your mind to hate Jews because Islam preaches it. You have your values. You have your beliefs. Practice them the way you like.

Not that it matters but just adding 2 cents, keep it tight in your brain to store the hate in your heart and not in your practical actions. This is not 1940s.

Please be very clear........ Islam doesnt preach hatered ........

The thing is very clear..... Jewism is spritiual religion and we accept that it is from Allah... but now there orders are superseded by the preachings of Muhammad S.A.W and Islam will prevail......

If any muslim is spreading hatered, it is his personal action, not that of Islam

 

[Keepinformed]

Please be very clear........ Islam doesnt preach hatered ........

The thing is very clear..... Jewism is spritiual religion and we accept that it is from Allah... but now there orders are superseded by the preachings of Muhammad S.A.W and Islam will prevail......

If any muslim is spreading hatered, it is his personal action, not that of Islam

Like I said before and I am pasting it again with a slight doze of socially lethal sarcasm.

"Whatever makes your world go round. Believe it. Keep it"

We will both be banging our heads together against each other with zero creative result, if this fire or reverse fire continues.

You are going to keep hating Jews. I am going to keep loving them.

You live in your own disney land and I will live in my own never land.

Cease Fire.

 

[wmahmooood]

Like I said before and I am pasting it again with a slight doze of socially lethal sarcasm.

"Whatever makes your world go round. Believe it. Keep it"

We will both be banging our heads together against each other with zero creative result, if this fire or reverse fire continues.

You are going to keep hating Jews. I am going to keep loving them.

You live in your own disney land and I will live in my own never land.

Cease Fire.

I dont believe in this fire and reverse fire....

and i m not going to hate jews ... as i am never taught to do so......

Yes i do hate all the wrong deeds of every one

 

[wmahmooood]

Like I said before and I am pasting it again with a slight doze of socially lethal sarcasm.

"Whatever makes your world go round. Believe it. Keep it"

We will both be banging our heads together against each other with zero creative result, if this fire or reverse fire continues.

You are going to keep hating Jews. I am going to keep loving them.

You live in your own disney land and I will live in my own never land.

Cease Fire.

But remember that Islam is a true religion and I invite you to read Islam instead of observing the deeds of its so-called followers

 

[AsifAmeer]

Its all hunky dory till your neighbour says he is not a Muslim and doesnt want his tax money to be used to spread Islam via Govt. He doesnt want his tax money spent on Extra security for the month of Ramadan. He doesnt want money spent on a committee called the "moon-sighting" committee . Its just like a Muslim objecting his tax money being spent on Christmas tree or a big Star of David sign by the Govt.

So how could people of the past get away with this sort of stuff? Simple... there were less humans on the Earth. If you dont wanna be a Muslim living in Muslim land, go somewhere else. If you dont like Christian practices while living in Christian land, go somewhere else. And they did. But what I find interesting is that the followers of Islam showed alot more tolerance to other faiths in history. Its like they knew and understand their faith and beliefs very clearly and never felt threatened. As a result, Jews..christians..parsis..they freely started moving in around Muslim lands. Because they saw the Muslim code of Justice and ethics far superior than of other faiths. Let me share something interesting from the same book I quoted from at the start of this thread

I just wonder what Muslims feel like when they read stuff like this. As far as I am concerned, I feel enraged, insulted and cheated by our current Islamic Scholars who had lost lost every shred of Intellectual authority and are now on the verge of losing Moral authority too.




And to answer your question [MENTION=10116]mrcritic[/MENTION] , if you take personally responsibility of the ANY murder any of your ancestors may have done in the last 3000 years, it is only fair then to blame every single jew, alive or dead, for the acts of their ancestors.

[MENTION=28031]Aleph[/MENTION] I would like your take on the religious perspective of the acts of ancestors.
[MENTION=22120]Keepinformed[/MENTION] [MENTION=28598]Vitamin_C[/MENTION] [MENTION=23319]Temojin[/MENTION]

Actually - I see a lot of talk about religion and comparing it with Islam.

I would like to say one thing just for the sake of proper definition of Religion. Whereas the west defines religion as something to be kept inside the house and for outside it including the government - they call it secularism. Actually secularism is infact a religion - Keep God inside your home, outside its all Atheism and if you wish to bring God outside it - we will not tolerate it.

On the other hand - Islam does not define it that way - Allah is both inside and outside - everywhere - his kingdom is everywhere and if someone feel that keeping Allah just inside the home is fine and outside we have to accept what Securlars/Atheist say - then this is not Islam - This may be anything else (even Shirk - accepting two Gods) but not Islam. Inside the home, your God is Allah and outside it is the Atheist leader of the nation / people / parliament.

The christian quote - "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's". This quote has been attributed to Jesus (AS) and found in synoptic gospel, Matthews (22:21). The Muslims are somehow confused that this quote is applicable to Islam also - but it is not. In Islam, even Ceaser authority is below that of God and therefore if any of his actions / commands are against the commandment of God, we cannot and should not accept it. Even if we have to accept it under his forceful authority, we have to accept very unwillingly and under protest.

This particular post of mine has nothing to do with the main subject of this thread - but I felt because of the improper definition of Religion - or to be more accurate - differences in opinion regarding the proper definition of religion - the results derived may not be reliable.

 

[Keepinformed]

Its all hunky dory till your neighbour says he is not a Muslim and doesnt want his tax money to be used to spread Islam via Govt. He doesnt want his tax money spent on Extra security for the month of Ramadan. He doesnt want money spent on a committee called the "moon-sighting" committee . Its just like a Muslim objecting his tax money being spent on Christmas tree or a big Star of David sign by the Govt.

So how could people of the past get away with this sort of stuff? Simple... there were less humans on the Earth. If you dont wanna be a Muslim living in Muslim land, go somewhere else. If you dont like Christian practices while living in Christian land, go somewhere else. And they did. But what I find interesting is that the followers of Islam showed alot more tolerance to other faiths in history. Its like they knew and understand their faith and beliefs very clearly and never felt threatened. As a result, Jews..christians..parsis..they freely started moving in around Muslim lands. Because they saw the Muslim code of Justice and ethics far superior than of other faiths. Let me share something interesting from the same book I quoted from at the start of this thread

I just wonder what Muslims feel like when they read stuff like this. As far as I am concerned, I feel enraged, insulted and cheated by our current Islamic Scholars who had lost lost every shred of Intellectual authority and are now on the verge of losing Moral authority too.




And to answer your question @mrcritic , if you take personally responsibility of the ANY murder any of your ancestors may have done in the last 3000 years, it is only fair then to blame every single jew, alive or dead, for the acts of their ancestors.

@Aleph I would like your take on the religious perspective of the acts of ancestors.
@Keepinformed @Vitamin_C @Temojin

Well I am not at all a religious person. For what I know through recorded facts that human species have had more eras of destruction under the command of religious edicts than natural causes like Earth Quakes, Plagues, AIDs, Cancers, Malaria and Floods.

I have also learnt through experience that the first 10 to 15 years of a child's life are basically what he is for the rest of his life.

Changing the pro violence anti peace Muslim mindset in Pakistan for 20 somethings, 30 somethings, 40 somethings, 50 somethings and beyond is a lost cause.

We can have debates on the issue and grab each others throats but any pro violence kill or be killed religious indoctrination infested in to our brains will always overcome even the strongest of valid arguments.

Yes what we can possibly be hopeful for are the kids going to schools in 2012. The students who are 15 years and below. They are the ones that need correcting.

Unfortunately Pakistan and other members of the Muslim world have not even begun to acknowledge it.

The west will eventually come out of their economic and social recessions but we as a Muslim world from what it looks are a penny stock which has crashed for good.

Time to clap...(clap)

 

[wadera]

The Holy Quran is crystal clear about Yahood and Nasaraa ... honestly, I don't need to read anything to else to convince me otherwise ...

 

[modern.fakir]

(bigsmile)...I'm not impressed ...it seems like a cheap attempt to put the blame of usury dealings that the jews have been doing for centuries on christian monarchs and kings.

The question then arises if the kings were so self centered then why did the jews keep on going back to them to get abused !

Anyhow, i will also urge you to read this book called the Quran more closely ...specifically these verses ...Apparently the Author's authenticity is undisputed :

(158) There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them - (159) Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews We forbade them good things which were (before) made lawful unto them, and because of their much hindering from Allah's way, (160) And of their taking usury when they were forbidden it, and of their devouring people's wealth by false pretences, We have prepared for those of them who disbelieve a painful doom (Quran, 4:61)


Surah An- Nisa Verses 158 - 161


With all due respect Asif [MENTION=24375]AsifAmeer[/MENTION]...the Quran specifically mentions the jews as the ones who deal in usury.and..i trust the Author of this book more than anything else ..(bigsmile)

 

[modern.fakir]

The west is just starting to go into economic and social recessions..

The local culture is destroying the social fabric of family life.

Their economies are in debt and in a huge mess.

The young dont respect the old and the old have nothing to offer to the young.

Population is in a complete decline across, europe, north america, australasia and therefore the immigration programs ...which is probably one of the reasons your siting there.

On the other hand most of the problems in the Muslim world are caused by the west.

- funding insurgents from afghanistan, iraq, syria, libya
- Enforcing sanctions
- enforcing regime changes

Muslims on the other hands have issues but the positives are far more.

- we have good agricultural economies

- low debt because we never looted others

- growing population

- respect for elders

- elders have experience and love to offer the younger generation.

You seem to have a very unpopular and myopic view of the muslim civilization based on some past misguided notions. Their was a reason why ancestors of your background chose a muslim country to settle in as opposed to the land they left behiind. You can be an outcast but everyone knows the truth

you may now clap

 

[guest]

have you evaluated all the religions past and present of the world, to make a statement like tha. if you have not, you just appear to be a bumbling gloating fool.

Jews are enemies of Islam.....

peronsal practices should not be linked with religion. Religion should be evaluated based on its teachings....

and no doubt Islam has the best teachings in the world...

 

[guest]

Asif, it was a great point you made, but deserves some details which contradict it. I think behavior of muslim societies in the medieval ages was much worse than it is today. today atleast due to TV radio and internet, the world is a much smaller place and there are global standards of ethics etc which everyone ie pressurized to accept. islamic history is quite bloody towards fellow muslims and of course towards lesser humans like me (kaafirs).

the major difference (which explains some anamalies) is that in medieval ages, christian societies were worse and more intolerant that muslim societies. the witch burning, banning of printing press, the inquisitions etc were all to common. so as a comparison, islamic socieities looked ok.

other than that, I think it is a well accepted theory nowdays, that jews were forced into money lending business by local zamindars, because christianity explicitly forbade usury, while the torah expressed irritation with usury but did not ban it altogether. so medieval europe was full of jewish money lenders, so much so that in shakespear's tale of two cities, the money lender who lends antonio money was Shylock the jew..

Its all hunky dory till your neighbour says he is not a Muslim and doesnt want his tax money to be used to spread Islam via Govt. He doesnt want his tax money spent on Extra security for the month of Ramadan. He doesnt want money spent on a committee called the "moon-sighting" committee . Its just like a Muslim objecting his tax money being spent on Christmas tree or a big Star of David sign by the Govt.

So how could people of the past get away with this sort of stuff? Simple... there were less humans on the Earth. If you dont wanna be a Muslim living in Muslim land, go somewhere else. If you dont like Christian practices while living in Christian land, go somewhere else. And they did. But what I find interesting is that the followers of Islam showed alot more tolerance to other faiths in history. Its like they knew and understand their faith and beliefs very clearly and never felt threatened. As a result, Jews..christians..parsis..they freely started moving in around Muslim lands. Because they saw the Muslim code of Justice and ethics far superior than of other faiths. Let me share something interesting from the same book I quoted from at the start of this thread




I just wonder what Muslims feel like when they read stuff like this. As far as I am concerned, I feel enraged, insulted and cheated by our current Islamic Scholars who had lost lost every shred of Intellectual authority and are now on the verge of losing Moral authority too.




And to answer your question @mrcritic , if you take personally responsibility of the ANY murder any of your ancestors may have done in the last 3000 years, it is only fair then to blame every single jew, alive or dead, for the acts of their ancestors.

@Aleph I would like your take on the religious perspective of the acts of ancestors.
@Keepinformed @Vitamin_C @Temojin

 

[guest]

what does it say?

The Holy Quran is crystal clear about Yahood and Nasaraa ... honestly, I don't need to read anything to else to convince me otherwise ...

 

[AsifAmeer]

The Holy Quran is crystal clear about Yahood and Nasaraa ... honestly, I don't need to read anything to else to convince me otherwise ...

(bigsmile)...I'm not impressed ...it seems like a cheap attempt to put the blame of usury dealings that the jews have been doing for centuries on christian monarchs and kings.

The question then arises if the kings were so self centered then why did the jews keep on going back to them to get abused !

Anyhow, i will also urge you to read this book called the Quran more closely ...specifically these verses ...Apparently the Author's authenticity is undisputed :

(158) There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them - (159) Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews We forbade them good things which were (before) made lawful unto them, and because of their much hindering from Allah's way, (160) And of their taking usury when they were forbidden it, and of their devouring people's wealth by false pretences, We have prepared for those of them who disbelieve a painful doom (Quran, 4:61)


Surah An- Nisa Verses 158 - 161


With all due respect Asif @AsifAmeer...the Quran specifically mentions the jews as the ones who deal in usury.and..i trust the Author of this book more than anything else ..(bigsmile)

I do not consider it my job to teach you Islam. I too am a student of it. I have NEVER NEVER felt Islam to be a RACIST religion against any caste,creed, faith or color. There are quotes about the Jews in the Quran where they are "assured of Heaven" who wake up in the middle of the night to remember their Lord. There are quotes about Christians about their soft stand compared to the jews.

You are entitled to your opinion in Faith. However, I dont not believe my Creator is racist.

Asif, it was a great point you made, but deserves some details which contradict it. I think behavior of muslim societies in the medieval ages was much worse than it is today. today atleast due to TV radio and internet, the world is a much smaller place and there are global standards of ethics etc which everyone ie pressurized to accept. islamic history is quite bloody towards fellow muslims and of course towards lesser humans like me (kaafirs).

the major difference (which explains some anamalies) is that in medieval ages, christian societies were worse and more intolerant that muslim societies. the witch burning, banning of printing press, the inquisitions etc were all to common. so as a comparison, islamic socieities looked ok.

other than that, I think it is a well accepted theory nowdays, that jews were forced into money lending business by local zamindars, because christianity explicitly forbade usury, while the torah expressed irritation with usury but did not ban it altogether. so medieval europe was full of jewish money lenders, so much so that in shakespear's tale of two cities, the money lender who lends antonio money was Shylock the jew..

Cultural distortions frame reality and ultimately distort the truth too. That was the point of this thread. We humans always see things in comparative forms. Ofcourse we have a better understanding of morality today, not because we are better human beings but we have had more time than the Greeks and the Jews or the Hindus from 5000 years ago. Whatever material, which isnt alot, I have come across about the general Muslim population of the past, was not as hostile to the Jews as it is today. Everything is shaped by Israel and Palestine in the Muslim world today.

 

[modern.fakir]

Now this is truly flawed logic Asif. What does being a Jew have to do with Racism ?

The word Jew signifies the follower of a faith not a race. The jewish faith has people from all races. We have european jews, Iranian Jews, Arab Jews and African Jews. Why get confused between a race and a religion.

If followers of a particular ideology indulge in usury and that is ratified by the Quran ..then we should simply accept that and leave it at that. why give weight to some text written by god knows who to distort and change views that Jews didnt deal in usury when they did, but were rather forced into it by christian kings.

And whatever hostility you see towards the "jews" today or what you call "hostility, is not because of judaism as a religion or towards the jewish practice of usury BUT rather because of the illegal occupation of Israel and its zionist policies. The reason for our predecessors not having such hostilities is because Islam is a religion of peace and their was never an Israel like this that bothered the Muslims so much. Simple !

Muslims have been the best to jews because Allah swt and Prophet Muhammad pbuh has commanded us to be so. whatever injustices have happened have mostly been from the other side.

I do not consider it my job to teach you Islam. I too am a student of it. I have NEVER NEVER felt Islam to be a RACIST religion against any caste,creed, faith or color. There are quotes about the Jews in the Quran where they are "assured of Heaven" who wake up in the middle of the night to remember their Lord. There are quotes about Christians about their soft stand compared to the jews.

You are entitled to your opinion in Faith. However, I dont not believe my Creator is racist.




Cultural distortions frame reality and ultimately distort the truth too. That was the point of this thread. We humans always see things in comparative forms. Ofcourse we have a better understanding of morality today, not because we are better human beings but we have had more time than the Greeks and the Jews or the Hindus from 5000 years ago. Whatever material, which isnt alot, I have come across about the general Muslim population of the past, was not as hostile to the Jews as it is today. Everything is shaped by Israel and Palestine in the Muslim world today.

 

[wadera]

I do not consider it my job to teach you Islam. I too am a student of it. I have NEVER NEVER felt Islam to be a RACIST religion against any caste,creed, faith or color. There are quotes about the Jews in the Quran where they are "assured of Heaven" who wake up in the middle of the night to remember their Lord. There are quotes about Christians about their soft stand compared to the jews.

You are entitled to your opinion in Faith. However, I dont not believe my Creator is racist.




Cultural distortions frame reality and ultimately distort the truth too. That was the point of this thread. We humans always see things in comparative forms. Ofcourse we have a better understanding of morality today, not because we are better human beings but we have had more time than the Greeks and the Jews or the Hindus from 5000 years ago. Whatever material, which isnt alot, I have come across about the general Muslim population of the past, was not as hostile to the Jews as it is today. Everything is shaped by Israel and Palestine in the Muslim world today.

I am amazed on how you came to the conclusion above ... it is astounding. Please don't put words into my mouth!