Kargil adventure was four-man show: Lt Gen Shahid Aziz

zhohaq

Minister (2k+ posts)
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After Gen Riazuddin Butt and Gen Gulzar Kiani we have another Ex Army coem out with an account on Kargil.
Of course just like the other too its a depressing read and completely at odd at the popular fiction spread by Musharraf and his ideological underlings.

He headed ISI Analysis Wing at the time his evasion of his own responsibility is pretty characteristics of our Ex Military types looking for redemption He also stayed on with Mush as Corp Commander of Lahore, Head of NAB and DG MO.He is also involved in a number of scams like most Military types in Mush era.
Infact they may even be related.
Chagatai Khan: One More Multifaceted Fraud: Lt . General (R) Shahid Aziz - EX-Chairman NAB.

He almost certainly played a very active role in Musharaf coup. He went along with every folly Mush junta indulged in. Even when he retired he did not find the courage to call Musharaf out.

Just goes to prove the quality of men who make it to the top in Pakistan Armed forces.


Putting our children in line of fire | The Nation


Putting our children in line of fire







Kargil, like every other meaningless war that we have fought, brings home lessons we continue to refuse to learn. Instead, we proudly call it our history written in the blood of our children. Indeed, our children penning down our misdeeds with their blood! Medals for some, few songs, a cross road renamed, and of course annual remembrance day and a memorial for those who sacrificed their tomorrow for our today; [HI]thus preparing more war fodder for our continuing misadventures[/HI]. Since nothing went wrong, so there is nothing to learn. We shall do it again. We decide. You die. We sing.


Cut off from the reality of pain and affliction that would be brought upon the nation,[HI] the decision maker takes the course most suited to his whimsical ambitions.[/HI] Possible hurdles are sidetracked, on the basis of ‘need to know’, or merely bulldozed. Never has there been an institutional decision for the bloodshed. And at the end of each fiasco, original objectives are redefined to cry, “Hurrah! We have won”.


[HI]Our leaders seek personal glory, and desire honour in the eyes of other nations. Sadly, that has become our definition of national honour; but how can we be respected when we have little self respect?[/HI] So concerned have we become about how they perceive us that we openly deride our religion and all the social values that we once stood for.


The whole truth about Kargil is yet to be known. [HI]We await the stories of forgotten starved soldiers hiding behind cold desolate rocks, with empty guns still held in their hands. [/HI]What stood them there could only be a love higher than that of life. Some refused to withdraw even when ordered, and stayed to fight the proverbial last man last round. Such precious blood spilled without cause!


[HI]Whatever little I know, took a while to emerge, since General Musharraf had put a tight lid on Kargil.[/HI] Three years later, [HI]a study commenced by GHQ to identify issues of concern at the lowest levels of command, was forcefully stopped by him. “What is your intent?” he asked. His cover-up was revealed many years later, on publication of his book.[/HI][HI]
[/HI]An unsound military plan based on invalid assumptions, launched with little preparations and in total disregard to the regional and international environment, was bound to fail. That may well have been the reason for its secrecy.[HI] It was a total disaster.[/HI] The question then arises why was it undertaken? Were there motives other than those proclaimed, or was it only a blunder, as I had assumed for many years?
It certainly wasn’t a defensive manoeuvre. There were no indications of an Indian attack. We didn’t pre-empt anything; nothing was on the cards.[HI] I was then heading the Analysis Wing of Inter Services Intelligence and it was my job to know. Our clearly expressed intent was to cut the supply line to Siachen and force the Indians to pull out. This was not a small result we sought and cannot be classified as a tactical manoeuvre, where no one other than the local commander needed to be aware.[/HI] General Musharraf himself writes, “800 sq kms of area was captured.... and it created strategic effects”. To say that occupying empty spaces along the Line of Control was not a violation of any agreement and came under the purview of the local commander is astounding. This area was with the Indians as a result of Simla Agreement, and there had been no major violation of the Line of Control since 1971.


[HI]The entire planning and execution was done in a cavalier manner, in total disregard of military convention[/HI]. In justification, to say that our assessment was not wrong, but there was, “unreasonably escalated Indian response” is a sorry excuse for not being able to assess Indian reaction. Assumptions were made that they would not be able to dislodge us and the world would sit back idly.
[HI]There were no mujahideen, only taped wireless messages, which fooled no one. [/HI]Our soldiers were made to occupy barren ridges, with hand held weapons and ammunition. There was no way to dig in, so they were told to make parapets with lose stones and sit behind them, with no overhead protection. The boys were comforted by their commander’s assessment that no serious response would come. But it did — wave after wave, supported by massive air bursting artillery and repeated air attacks. The enemy still couldn’t manage to capture the peaks, and instead filled in the valleys. Cut off and forsaken, our posts started collapsing one after the other, though the general publicly denied it.
[HI]The gung-ho mannerism, when there were no pressures, was cowed when lines started shrinking and the international setting became frightening. There was no will to stay the course. [/HI]Media was hushed to silence, so that pulling out does not become a political issue. We will sing when our songs don’t tie us down.
[HI]The operation, in any case, didn’t have the capacity to choke Siachen. When this truth surfaced, the initial aim was quickly modified.[/HI] Now the book reads, “I would like to state emphatically that whatever movement has taken place so far in the direction of finding a solution to Kashmir is due considerably to the Kargil conflict.” Glory be to the victors.
[HI]We continue to indulge in bloody enterprises, under the hoax of safeguarding national interest.[/HI] How many more medals will we put on coffins? How many more songs are we to sing? And how many more martyrs will our silences hide? If there is purpose to war then yes, we shall all go to the battle front, but a war where truth has to be hidden, makes one wonder whose interest is it serving?
It must be Allah’s country, for who else is holding it afloat?!
The writer is a retired lieutenant general and former corps commander of Lahore. Email: [email protected] Blog: gen-shahidaziz.blogspot.com


 
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zhohaq

Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz

Another Gem this General has produced.
Keep in mind this was the head of IV corp the most important in the country. He was also DG MO.
This what happens to a country run by invertebrates.



Drop in the Ocean: Is there War on Terror yet?

Drop in the Ocean


A Pakistani soldier's perspective







Wednesday, December 12, 2012

Is there War on Terror yet?
Published in The Nation, September 14, 2008



The search for Osama bin Laden is a hoax. The US has been in occupation of Afghanistan for seven years, and not one Allied soldier is involved in this search. Thousands of Afghans have been killed, but not one has lost his life defending Osama. [HI]NATO is here only to crush the resistance to illegitimate US occupation of Afghanistan. And Pakistan was slowly coerced to join, as an abettor in the crime.
[/HI]
When we talk of War on Terror, we are only concerned with the method of waging war, not the reasons for the conflict, which for Afghanistan, lie buried in close to three decades of brutal exploitation. Acts of terrorism are mere tactics. If we dispute tactics with the Afghan Taliban, how else do they fight an international US-European coalition in occupation of their homeland? It is being said that “discussion of root causes can blur the immorality of terrorism and encourage it”, and that “any group utilizing terror, regardless of their goal, makes their cause illegitimate”. Tactics are under dispute, but the cause of war is not to be debated. [HI]The only solution accepted by the West is use of brute force to terrorize the population into submitting their will. If this is ‘war’, then in war ‘suicide bombing’ is a legitimate weapon. There can be no debate on methodology of war; the Kamikaze pilots were war heroes and not criminals. [/HI]Whether this is sanctioned by religion, is another matter altogether, and of no concern to the Coalition Forces. What targets are chosen – the rules are applicable to both sides, as are for collateral damage.

[HI]Pakistan was a reluctant collaborator in this war.The reason for its entry was simply state terrorism: we were terrorized into supporting this war on ‘terrorism’, which has now become “our war”, since we have no other way to justify it.
[/HI] The US threatened to declare us a terrorist state and “bomb Pakistan into the stone ages”. India, meanwhile, lobbied and offered to provide bases for simultaneous tackling of Pakistan and Afghanistan – “get over with both problems in one go”, was their bid.[HI] Pakistan was isolated and without confidence to defend itself. Then, we were lucky that the US decided to tackle one problem at a time. Now, the second step is unfolding, as we sit back and continue to pretend that we are fighting for our own good.[/HI]

There was never a formalized considered decision by the Government of Pakistan to join the US War on Terror, as an ally. It came in bits and pieces and grew over time, starting from neutrality and non interference, and growing up to the level of our current no-holds-barred involvement. To begin with, no agreements were made and no terms of engagement finalized. Neither the end goals nor even the enemy was identified. It was decided that we would stay out of the conflict. The fact that this conflict was in our neighborhood and had roots within us somehow didn’t seem to matter. Such were the imperatives.

The first role assigned to the Army was to search out the Tribal Areas and to “empty the pond of crocodiles”. Great emphasis was laid on this by the CENTCOM. The Army engaged with the tribes in Waziristan to search out and seek eviction of foreigners – mostly Arabs and Uzbeks. Meanwhile, the US invasion unfolded from the north and swept towards our borders, with no information to us about their plans and whereabouts. Their operations halted when they closed up to Tora Bora, allowing the Taliban to fall back to these cave hideouts. Then, in one huge push, all the remnants were driven into Pakistan. All this while, we were being harassed to go house to house in search of ‘crocodiles’, and could not prevent this influx of militants from across the border. It ended in more bitterness and more distrust between the two armies.

Why the operation was not launched from the south, to sever the Taliban from their base and push them against the anvil of Northern Alliance was an enigma, since the air bases were to be located here, the supplies were to move through Pakistan and even an amphibious landing was to be staged on our shores. [HI]This could only be understood in retrospect – a built in design to push the militants into Pakistan.
[/HI]
[HI]Indians were the first non allied elements to arrive in Kabul, after it was secured.[/HI] They were allowed ingress into all that was happening, and asked to assist the Afghans in establishing various government departments and security apparatus. Today, there is a large Indian presence in Afghanistan, with a number of consulates operating along Pakistan’s border and functioning as intelligence bases. [HI]India, the only country with which Pakistan has a history of hostility, was brought in and established behind our back, by our own coalition partner — the US.
[/HI]
Under US patronage, Indians are training, arming and financing Balochistan Liberation Army (BLA), which was declared a terrorist organization by most countries, less the US. Truck loads of arms and ammunition has been flowing into Balochistan from across the Afghan border, for a number of years. [HI]The involvement of Indians in our Tribal Areas with the Tehreek e Taliban Pakistan (TTP) has also been known for some time.[/HI] Government of Pakistan has repeatedly declared the “presence of foreign hand” in sustaining them, without having actually named India or their sponsors, the US.

When the Kashmir Jihad was at its peak, Israeli advisors, with vast experience of handling Palestinian freedom fighters, arrived in Srinagar. [HI]Our intelligence reported that on MOSSAD’s advice Indians were to raise their own ‘mujahedeen’. And soon, there were bomb blasts in market places, rape, arson and plunder by these Indian ‘mujahedeen’, and cases of throwing acid on unveiled women. All this was done, in the name of Islam, to discredit the struggle in the eyes of the population. Today, the same theme is playing in our Tribal Areas and from there into the rest of the country.[/HI] Perhaps, this is only the visible tip of the iceberg. The presence of Indians on our Western border is a strategic dilemma for Pakistan, created by our so called friends. What nefarious forms of threat generate from here, today, is quite visible; what will unfold in the future is yet to come.

With no end goals or specified objectives and no visible intent to find a solution, it is now understood that the US has established a permanent presence in the region. In addition to the double envelopment of both Iran and Pakistan, it has placed itself at the strategic cross roads – once enviously sought after by the Soviets. They would not only contest Russian and Chinese influence in the region, but also retain the ability to magnify trouble in Chinese Muslim territories, thereby sowing seeds of conflict between China and the Muslim World – a strategy in waiting. And of course, one cannot overlook the disarmament of Pakistan, in connivance with its accomplice India.

[HI]Current US strategy for the war on terror, adopted by Pakistan, has produced devastating results for the country. It has increased extremism, violence and terrorism in Pakistan and the government has lost credibility since it is playing the US game in the region.
[/HI] Besides the focus on use of military instrument, other steps like education, economic development and measures adopted under the ‘visionary enlightened moderation’ are long term and cannot influence the current situation. Our strategic alignment with the US war in Afghanistan has no support within the country, other than in elite drawing rooms. US meddling in our internal affairs has further disillusioned the people from the government. Frontier Province is almost out of hand, Balochistan is simmering to explode, and Karachi has been taken hostage by Altaf Hussain and Baitullah Massud, who are jointly prompting a great massacre. Is a ‘foreign hand’ goading them on? Or do we simply explain it by saying that we are in habit of externalizing our problems?

By deliberately spreading extremism and terrorism in Pakistan and through intense exhortations on the media, we are trying to rally the people behind ‘War on Terror’. [HI]Given the social, political and economic milieu, as well as the state of governance in Pakistan, the government’s support for this war cannot last very long. It is time to drop the pretentions.
[/HI]
The Bush administration’s new policy of denying sanctuary in Pakistan to Taliban, not constrained by concerns regarding Pakistan’s stability, is already unfolding and showing the strains it is causing on our polity. [HI]Entry of US troops in Pakistan is an attack on our national sovereignty, or whatever is left of it[/HI]. The consequences could be horrendous, both for Pakistan and the US. Militants would multiply by the thousands. Pakistan Army would not be able to support US operations, or else its command structure would collapse. Financial crisis and street unrest would create chaos in the country. Extremists would be pushed deeper into Pakistan and war will spread, making the US far more vulnerable. [HI]Pakistan would be destabilized, presenting the US with the final challenge, or perhaps the opportunity, to tackle Pakistan and attempt to denuclearize it by having our nuclear arsenal declared dangerous under Chapter 7 of the UN Charter and ordered to be placed under safe custody of the IAEA.[/HI] When the Army is fully committed on internal security duties, will the Indian Army be, then, deployed on our borders to complete the scenario for dismembering the country? One wonders if an implosion is being engineered.
[HI]There is no war on terror going on in the region. US presence is creating more hatred and more ‘terrorists’. [/HI]There is no solution to be found on this road. [HI]The solution lies only in search for peace, but that has been forbidden by the US.[/HI]

[HI]‘War on Terror’ has come to mean defeating and destroying the concept of political Islam as an ideology. The more the Muslims are cornered, the more political will Islam become.[/HI] You cannot kill this idea with guns. Religions cannot be destroyed through force, not even brute force.

There is no search for Osama going on here. [HI]Osama will be found only when the US has created another greater threat to be presented to the world. Then Osama will not be needed any more, as an alibi. Then, a new drama of terror will unfold.














[/HI]
 
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Researcher

MPA (400+ posts)
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz

So, he even do not remember that Indian Army crossed LOC in successful mission to [HI]takeover Siachin in 1984[/HI].

P.S: As you mentioned, these generals have habit of repenting, once they are out of uniform. It pretty much goes through out the world.

General wrote: "This area was with the Indians as a result of Simla Agreement, and t[HI]here had been no major violation of the Line of Control since 1971[/HI]".
 

Fursan

Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz

Analysis of Kargil conflict by Gen Musharraf

[video]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=50a_1354015763[/video]
 

zhohaq

Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz

So, he even do not remember that Indian Army crossed LOC in successful mission to [HI]takeover Siachin in 1984[/HI].

P.S: As you mentioned, these generals have habit of repenting, once they are out of uniform. It pretty much goes through out the world.

The LOC was unfortunately not demarcated at Siachin(North of marker NJ9842). So there was no technical violation of LOC per Simla Accord.
I know it is a bad excuse, but it was a loop hole the Indians exploited to their advantage IN 1984.

Any thoughts on the second article?, which is far more intresting. I think.


Edit:

Oh so he is writing a book. lol
Goody. These books are a treasure trove of information.
He was pretty well placed in Mush regime and he saw all the muck upclose.
Will love to see him to wash the GHQ dirty linen in public.
 
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Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz

Every country has an army, Pakistan army has a country (hostage to its demands for power, property and political and economic pilfrage). Parasites strangle holding 18 crore population at gun point.
 

Researcher

MPA (400+ posts)
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz

Second article definitely shows his analytical days of ISI. It is quite unreported in Media, but he had personal victimization issue due to Gen. Musharraf's likes and dislike. He could raise these issues, once Mush is out of power.

Gen. Shahid feels victimized due to following reasons. (Just rem, relation between Mush and Quli Khan, and how Mush looked and wrote about decision of QK promotion over Mush in his book). Timeline of events Lieutenant General Shahid Aziz Vs Major General Tariq Majeed:

1) On 19th Dec, 2003 -- Major General Tariq Majid was promoted to three star rank (Lieutenant General), and appointed as "Chief Of General Staff" replacing Lieutenant General Shahid Aziz. CGS is important post as it heads MI and MO (as compared to Corps Commander Lhr) [Ref link: http://archives.dawn.com/2003/12/19/top4.htm ]

(Later, Tariq Majid had a stint at X corps commander, where he remained integral part of Pakistan's political-military drama. He remained right hand man of Mush).

In Oct, 2007 Lieutenant General TM was promoted as Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee. What Shahid Aziz deserved, the Major General got it. (You can match their rivalry/jealousy to Mush and Qulis.)

P.S: Mush took out all superactive generals such as Aziz or Shahid Aziz out. They wanted bigger share according to all their role in coup, when Mush was not even here.


The LOC was unfortunately not demarcated at Siachin. So there was no technical violation of LOC per Simla Accord.
I know it is a bad excuse, but it was a loop hole the Indians exploited to their advantage.

Any thoughts on the second article?, which is far more intresting. I think.

Edit:

Oh so he is writing a book. lol
Goody. These books are a treasure trove of information.
He was pretty well placed in Mush regime and he saw all the muck upclose.
Will love to see him to wash the GHQ dirty linen in public.
 

Fursan

Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz

Every country has an army, Pakistan army has a country (hostage to its demands for power, property and political and economic pilfrage). Parasites strangle holding 18 crore population at gun point.

A totally false remark
 

Unicorn

Banned
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz

This goes back to 1947 with very first blunder by Mr. Jinnah when he sent army and tribals into Kashmir and drawing India into conflict.
 

sajoo

MPA (400+ posts)
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz

This goes back to 1947 with very first blunder by Mr. Jinnah when he sent army and tribals into Kashmir and drawing India into conflict.


Please don't distort the history. It was India who coerced the Maharaja to joint her followed by the Indian army entering into Kashmir. What Mr Jinnah did was in accordance to the Standstill agreement between Maharaja and Pakistan. India eventually took the matter in the UN, and the UN resolutions and Indian state's continuous denial of allowing the Kashmiri people's right of self-determination is history.
 

awan4ever

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz

How long before the general is declared a CIA agent for spilling the beans and negating our chest thumping victory celebrations of a skirmish we were told our army had won?

Waiting to hear real patriots of the ZaidHamid species come out to denounce the general's outburst against the ineptness of our military command and their lack of concern for the lives of soldiers only to achieve some deluded personal glory.
 

lurker

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz

This goes back to 1947 with very first blunder by Mr. Jinnah when he sent army and tribals into Kashmir and drawing India into conflict.
Kashmir was Not part of India. It was only after the Maharaja asked for help and India agreed on the condition that he cede the state to India was the beginning of the Kashmir conflict. You can even see this document on the website of the indian government.
 

saint

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz

these rants are quite old now .. come up with some reason or logic if you got any .. anyway people have seen reality of this political system and don't forget recent incident in Quetta, every other person was demanding to call army. Same goes for Karachi
 

Unicorn

Banned
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz

Kashmir was Not part of India. It was only after the Maharaja asked for help and India agreed on the condition that he cede the state to India was the beginning of the Kashmir conflict. You can even see this document on the website of the indian government.

I agree with you. Kashmir was an independent state with King as its ruler. Pakistani army along with Punchi tribes attacked Kashmir a few days latter Maharaja used his powers and seceded to India making Kashmir officially Indian territory.

All I am saying that if Mr. Jinnah had left the Kashmir to Kashmiris and the King we would not have the situation that we have today. This is the reason I called it a blunder of Mr. Jinnah.

It was believed that India will take over Kingdom of Nepal too but it never did.
 
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drkjke

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz

kargil wars defeat reason was only one.lack of faith and lack of iman among senior generals level (and probably some foreign agent generals like musharaf intentionally lost this war too). otherwise Taliban at present have defeated americans in much more difficult situation in Afghanistan than Pakistani army was in kargil.its said by war experts that if Taliban had been fighting in kargil Kashmir had been freed upto sri nagar easily.i agree that india had superior air power but Taliban have no air power and American airpower is much superior to even indian airpower and still America lost in Afghanistan mashalah.
 

Unicorn

Banned
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz

Please don't distort the history. It was India who coerced the Maharaja to joint her followed by the Indian army entering into Kashmir. What Mr Jinnah did was in accordance to the Standstill agreement between Maharaja and Pakistan. India eventually took the matter in the UN, and the UN resolutions and Indian state's continuous denial of allowing the Kashmiri people's right of self-determination is history.

One thing for sure that one of us is a big immoral, lowdown, scum of a liar.
 

lurker

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz

I agree with you. Kashmir was an independent state with King as its ruler. Pakistani army along with Punchi tribes attacked Kashmir a few days latter Maharaja used his powers and seceded to India making Kashmir officially Indian territory.

All I am saying that if Mr. Jinnah had left the Kashmir to Kashmiris and the King we would not have the situation that we have today. This is the reason I called it a blunder of Mr. Jinnah.

It was believed that India will take over Kingdom of Nepal too but it never did.
I think Pakistan has been asking for a plebiscite in Kashmir since 1948.
 

Unicorn

Banned
Re: Kargil Conflict according to Lt Gen Shahid Aziz

Tell me which of the things I wrote are lies (if you think so;))?

How about if I post a copy of the document from UN where it states " Since Pakistan brought this matter to UNO " what would you say to that?. I have posted the document before.
 

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