ISLAM=DEEN V MAZHAB V SECULARISM, Where should we stand and why?

1 ummah · Aug 22, 2011

patriot said:
God has promised that those of you who will believe in the Divine laws and strengthen
human resources, He will make them rulers on earth, as He granted rule to the
previous nations. He will certainly establish for them the System of Life that He
has approved for them, and will replace their fear with peace and security. All
this because they obey Me alone. They ascribe no partner to Me. But all those
who, after this, deny these laws will drift out (of the community of living nations).
[28:6, 33:27. The belief mentioned in this verse does not pertain to any dogmas
and tenets, but to the realization that the entire Universe is operating under the
unchangeable Physical laws of One Supreme authority, thus providing the basis
for all Science and Technology

brother where does in this world the word "ammalo ssalihaat" is translated as "strengthen
human resources":13:

plz explain how u link this aya with science and tech permission??

read the tafaseer bro...ayat is a glad tiding for muslims,that Allah will grant them athorit...http://www.momin.com/urdu/Books/QuranTafseerUrdu-89/Sura-e-Al-+An-Nur+Ayat+55-60-2131.html

This is a promise from Allah to His Messenger that He would cause his Ummahto become successors on earth, i.e., they would become the leaders and rulers of mankind, through whom He would reform the world and to whom people would submit, so that they would have in exchange a safe security after their fear.

patriot · Aug 23, 2011

[MENTION=21222]1 ummah[/MENTION] ,Salamun Alaikum.

It is not a literal translation but an understanding from the whole of the Quran.
When you translate the Quran, it is important to keep the entire book in focus and not just a single verse.

If the universal laws are constantly changing, there will be no progress in science and technology.
We are convinced that God's laws do not change. Imaan.

Amilus Saalihati: If it is not strengthening human resources, what could it be otherwise? Bro. do you know the word SILAHIYAT in urdu? Ability.
Well, it has same root.

Quran is not just for us(Ummah) but for all mankind.

Mughal1 · Aug 23, 2011

Word aamanoo is from root alif, meem and noon meaning peace, security etc. ALLAZEENA AAMANOO therefore means those who commit or are committed to working for peace. The question is how one works for peace? By removing obstacles in the way of peace ie by fixing problems people have between themselves wherby they cannot live in peace and do favours for each other. SAALIHAAT is from root SAWD, LAAM, HAA meaning islaah=fixing something or make it work to serve the purpose. In the context it means those who strive to bring about peace by removing problems in way of creating peace between mankind in the divine kingdom eg the earth or land or country.

So aamaale saaliha simply means doing things tat are needed to be done to bring about peace on earth between people. This is what rule of Allah is all about ie khilaafah. making the world in to kingdom of God where in all live peacefully taking care of each other by caring and sharing everything Allah has created for them.

patriot · Aug 23, 2011

Brother [MENTION=13412]Mughal1[/MENTION] Salaam.
YAUMINOONA BIL GHAIBI in surah baqrah , does it mean who are convinced in the future or
does it mean who are commited to make peace for the sake of the future?

1 ummah · Aug 23, 2011

amilussalihaat are considered "naik ammal" i.e ppl who r not just muslims but their actions are also good i.e are practicing muslims!

the word does not mean silahiyat the word means good/isslah i.e rectitied

in ayat Allah tells muslims under this criteria (as were than) that u will be given power and will be free from this situation of oppression and war.

1 ummah · Aug 23, 2011

@ patriot
walaikumasalam warehmatullahi waberakaat

Mughal1 · Aug 23, 2011

Wa alaikum salam brother patriot, as I look at surah al baqarah or to me the context seems to be groups of people fighting each other over things. Allah is telling us that this is a book by sticking to which you people can solve all your problems and live with each other peacefully. So to me the quran dictates terms for peace or precepts upon which people will have to agree to have peace between them otherwise wars will continue till people have learned sense.

The book itself is not going to create peace nor Allah because that is not the purpose of Allah for sending the book nor purpose of Allah for creating this world. Allah tells us that he created people with potential like a seed to grows in to a tree for example. So he provided us with all we will need for ever and sent for us his advice. It is like somebody gives everything one needs to build a house with material and information and is told to get on with it. So it is up to us to use what we have been provided with according to advice of Allah and benefit from it or remain ignorant and suffer the consequences. So people who build a nice house can live in it otherwise they can stay as they are or go around spreading mischief ie try and demolish what others might have built.

As for words BIL GHAIB I take it to mean Allah himself. Because he is the unseen=al ghaib. So I would translate the verse part like such as commit to or are committed to working for peace on behalf of Allah or for sake of Allah. The opponent are kufaar because they are committed to wars. Why? Because if you work on precepts given by Allah then peace is inevitable but if you reject these precept then there is no formula for peace at all. This is why the quran challenges the kufaar to produce the rule of law like that of the quran and at the same time they are told they cannot. It is obvious why they cannot because none can get peace out of any unjust and unfair ruling system.

The quran is very straight forward book because it deals with real world real issues that face mankind. No mysteries and so no place for doubt. I differ with traditional interpreters of the quran because they turn the quran in to a dogmatic book which to me at least then makes no sense. I do not believe in make beliefs ie anyone says anything and tells us to believe and we say ok and start declaring all others kafirs. This is what has ruined this ummah ie lack of thoughtful reflection on the advice of Allah. I differ with idea of people that they can read the quran without understanding for so called sawab and pass on that as gift to their dead ancestors then that can get them off the hook. I do not think quran was sent for such things. That is just a kind of joke with the quran as I see it. Well that is my view point and people are free to disagree they may have better explanations but I kind of distance myself from that kind of explanations that have no head or tail. I like interpretation of alaama parwez sb marhoom the most because he seems very close to proper sense of the message. May Allah guide us all to proper sense of his message.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and all the best.

babadeena · Aug 23, 2011

آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ رَبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ ۚ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِنْ رُسُلِهِ ۚ وَقَالُوا سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا ۖ غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ {285**

If word Aamnoo is peace everywhere, then please help me to translate this line.
Brother Mughal1,
I am afraid your concept of translating Quran is "distortion of text". For peace there is an
Arabic word used in Quran, I hope you know that.

If there is difficulty, then please check this one:
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/l00460/peace/p.html
And again there is an arabic word for "Peace" (Silim)(in case of war).

Mughal1 · Aug 23, 2011

Brother baabadeena, translation of isolated verses by individuals makes little sense to others unless they read the whole translation by the individuals because each person interprets the whole book for oneself before one translate any individual verse.

The ideas worth consideration are those that come complete not in parts. To understand islam one has to read the whole quran not just a verse. It is because the quran has been broken into pieces unrelated to each other that muslims are in the state that they are. The verses in the quran here and there are disconnected not isolated. They are deliberately disconnected to ensure the reader puts his own effort to connect verses to each other. It is interactive book not for passive reading. One needs to be wide awake when reading it. It tells bits and rest is left to individual to put in there so that information becomes complete. No matter which translation you use, people put words in brackets thinking that these will help make interconnection smooth. If we did not do this right then there will be a very bumpy ride.

Just for your curiosity here is my way of interpreting the verse 2/285. Remember my understanding of the quran is different from yours and that means not go and fit this verse with translations of other people because their translations were done with a particular view point in their minds. The difference is that you have their translations in their complete form so it is easier to see what they made of the quran if anything but for my translation and interpretation you need to wait till I have it compete. Only then one will be able to see my overall point of view. The reason for translation is criticism raised against islam due to these translation between the sects within muslim world and between muslim and nonmuslim world.

2/285 The Messenger is committed to working for peace in the land according to the guidance revealed to him from his Lord along with all others who are committed to working for peace. They all declare, we each commit to working for peace in the land according to the declared will of Allah, as implemented by His appointed people throughout time according to His books given to them through His messengers. We discriminate not against any of His Messengers. And they declare, we hear your proclamation and we commit to it. Grace us our Lord, for your will is the goal of our journey.

regards and all the best.

babadeena · Aug 24, 2011

Brother Mughal1,

your translation or the translation of any person on which u r basing you concept is total
distortion of Quranic text, meaning-wise and text-wise. U or your favoured translator is injecting
words against arabic words which are neither their equivalent nor even nearer to the context.
At one place you yourself frame a rule like:

their translations were done with a particular view point in their minds.

and again you yourself resort to the same criteria to induct (by force) your favoured words like
"peace". I have come to the conclusion that in your and mine approach is day and night difference
because I judge the translation with a basic criteria that how much it is nearer to the arabic text.
whereas you have already your pre-determined concept and theory and wish to adjust quranic
verses according to this theory and that is very dangerous and very objectionable.

al-boriqee · Aug 27, 2011

patriot said:
Brother @Mughal1 Salaam.
YAUMINOONA BIL GHAIBI in surah baqrah , does it mean who are convinced in the future or
does it mean who are commited to make peace for the sake of the future?

wal-yuminoona bil-ghayb means
"And they believe in the unseen"

Allah here is referring to an attribute of faith, which is that it is based on believing in the "unseen". The ghayb here means ALL of the unseen, it includes Allah, the Angels, the last day, the after life (and all it contains based on the news we were given), the spiritual world. It has nothing to do with making peace from a grammatical basis.

al-boriqee · Aug 27, 2011

Mughal1 said:
The ideas worth consideration are those that come complete not in parts. To understand islam one has to read the whole quran not just a verse.

asalamu alaikum

yes, but the subject is not about "understanding Islam", it is about providing the lexical meaning of what a verse is advocating. Just as in the corpus of hadeeth, we isolate the meaning of each verse/hadeeth, AND THEN correlate each verse/hadeeth to all others that speak on the topic to arrive an accurate understanding. However just because our mission is to understand Islam does not justify the lexical manipulation of a verse/hadeeth in order to fit with the objective, because this in itself is known as tahreef (distortion).

Moreover, as someone who use to be christian, this methodological practice is known to be a practice of the christians. We find that it is they who manipulate their scripture on the same basis which is "to offer proper understanding" and in reality it is nothing short of distortion of what the text actually says.
The reason why Allah says

"And We have revealed it an Arabic Qur'an" is not just merely on the basis that it is in arabic. Rather the base root of "araba" is "to make something clear and distinct from anything other thing". Thus declaring it a work that is Arabic is essentially denoting that there is nothing someone can do to alter what it says. Rather its language is clear as to what it is referring to.

Mughal1 · Dec 4, 2011

ISLAM=DEEN V MAZHAB V SECULARISM, Where should we stand and why?

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