ISLAM=DEEN V MAZHAB V SECULARISM, Where should we stand and why?

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Dear friends, I have been participating on this forum for a little while and I think we need to define our direction therefore I am proposing an open discussion for setting ourselves a direction that is based upon wisdom.

So is it possible to settle the matter by debate once and for all?

Most people are afraid to talk about it but I think there is nothing to be afraid of. Let us freely but sensibly share our opinions and see the outcome for ourselves.

It would be very helpful that each participant explains what they think islam, deen, mazhab and secularism is.

Please explain also how in your view any of these can solve our problems? If it could be proven that any of these can help diagnose and solve our problems then that is what we should go far and propagate it through out our country and our world.

Please remain civilized through out this discussion, if you do not understand any point you are free to seek clarification.

Regards and all the best

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthre...en-plz!-Nice-Column-by-Orya-Maqbool-Jan/page5

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?50607-Pakistan-religion-secularism-amp-tribalism
 
Last edited:

angryoldman

Minister (2k+ posts)
don't need to go around and lose the right path.pray for "sawa assabeel".the real direction is quran and sunnah.and i don't call it wisdome to find beneficial matters for us from ahadeeth or interprate as our "nafas"wants.quran is the the only book which is never change since 1st day.try to read word by word translation by doing that we could understand the theme of islam.secondly our "fardh" ibadaas.if we practice daily then atleast we could hav establish our minds to accept islamic ruling open hearted.Taqwa and Amal main things.both should be strong.in last all the systems belong to islam unless at the point where they clash with islam.Allah guid me if i m wrong.amin
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
don't need to go around and lose the right path.pray for "sawa assabeel".the real direction is quran and sunnah.and i don't call it wisdome to find beneficial matters for us from ahadeeth or interprate as our "nafas"wants.quran is the the only book which is never change since 1st day.try to read word by word translation by doing that we could understand the theme of islam.secondly our "fardh" ibadaas.if we practice daily then atleast we could hav establish our minds to accept islamic ruling open hearted.Taqwa and Amal main things.both should be strong.in last all the systems belong to islam unless at the point where they clash with islam.Allah guid me if i m wrong.amin

Dear brother thank you for taking part in this debate. You are right in my view that the quran is the book we must follow but I am looking for more information regarding the problems we face and how the quran helps us diagnose those problems properly and what exact solutions the quran offers. We have spent far too much time in telling each other the quran is the solution but we have not discussed in detail the mechanisms and processes the quran teaches us. For this proper understanding of the quran is absolutely necessary otherwise we are just paying lip service to the quran and islam but are actually lying to ourselves. It is because we do not know what we are talking about despite having the education that we have.

I only agree with you the quran that it is divine guidance= a book that sets for us goals and guidelines or is a divine constitution for mankind. The question for us to answer is how does it all come together or how does it all work out?

OR

What are the real problems that we and the rest of the world face and does the quran guide us to solve those problems? If yes, how?

Personal ritualism are not the answer but they are just a part of a link in the chain.

Here is my solution based on my understanding of the quran.

1)the quran contains values and guidelines for personality building which make a person worthwhile character. For example, a person must treat others with respect. That is one must not harm the other person by lying to that person, by stealing of him, by robbing him, by killing him and so on and so forth. One must benefit others eg help them in education and work etc.

2)Islamic values for mankind are freedom, justice, fairness, compassion, brotherhood, progress and prosperity.

So anyone who does not get this fundamental sense from the quran does not understand the quran at all and any such person has no sense of what islam is. Such a person is useless for himself and useless for others and of course no use to Allah no matter what one thinks for oneself.

Without these foundational values which make islam a deen one's ritualistic behaviour is mere mazhab parasti and nothing more.

If one takes one's rituals more important than islamic values and guidelines then one is totally lost as far as islam is concerned.

If these are islamic values and guidelines and they are much more important than ritualism than the question arises what are muslims doing to explain them to each other and to others beyond themselves as well as to implement these values?

What happens if we do not bother understanding these values and guidelines? What happens if we do not implement them and why?

Can it be clearly proven beyond a shadow of doubt that islam is the real solution for our problems and not the secular democracy? How?

It is these like questions we need to ask ourselves and try and answer them as well.

Thanks again and all the best.
 
Last edited:

babadeena

Minister (2k+ posts)
It would be very helpful that each participant explains what they
think islam, deen, mazhab and secularism is.

It will be better, if posts remain short and to the point. First please define
the "Religion(deen,mazhab)". The definition should be of your own or
the one on which you agree. Once an agreed definition of Religion is
there, then things can proceed further. thanks.
 

angryoldman

Minister (2k+ posts)
Dear brother thank you for taking part in this debate. You are right in my view that the quran is the book we must follow but I am looking for more information regarding the problems we face and how the quran helps us diagnose those problems properly and what exact solutions the quran offers. We have spent far too much time in telling each other the quran is the solution but we have not discussed in detail the mechanisms and processes the quran teaches us. For this proper understanding of the quran is absolutely necessary otherwise we are just paying lip service to the quran and islam but are actually lying to ourselves. It is because we do not know what we are talking about despite having the education that we have.

I only agree with you the quran that it is divine guidance= a book that sets for us goals and guidelines or is a divine constitution for mankind. The question for us to answer is how does it all come together or how does it all work out?

OR

What are the real problems that we and the rest of the world face and does the quran guide us to solve those problems? If yes, how?

Personal ritualism are not the answer but they are just a part of a link in the chain.

Here is my solution based on my understanding of the quran.

1)the quran contains values and guidelines for personality building which make a person worthwhile character. For example, a person must treat others with respect. That is one must not harm the other person by lying to that person, by stealing of him, by robbing him, by killing him and so on and so forth. One must benefit others eg help them in education and work etc.

2)Islamic values for mankind are freedom, justice, fairness, compassion, brotherhood, progress and prosperity.

So anyone who does not get this fundamental sense from the quran does not understand the quran at all and any such person has no sense of what islam is. Such a person is useless for himself and useless for others and of course no use to Allah no matter what one thinks for oneself.

Without these foundational values which make islam a deen one's ritualistic behaviour is mere mazhab parasti and nothing more.

If one takes one's rituals more important than islamic values and guidelines then one is totally lost as far as islam is concerned.

If these are islamic values and guidelines and they are much more important than ritualism than the question arises what are muslims doing to explain them to each other and to others beyond themselves as well as to implement these values?

What happens if we do not bother understanding these values and guidelines? What happens if we do not implement them and why?

Can it be clearly proven beyond a shadow of doubt that islam is the real solution for our problems and not the secular democracy? How?

It is these like questions we need to ask ourselves and try and answer them as well.

Thanks again and all the best.
Brother mughal1

if i m not wrong i already mention it that 1st of all we need to be practical in our "fardh"ebadaas.everything works step by step.

second you trying to differ humanity from islam.infact islam teaches best human values.and the only way to teach others 1st ourselves should be practical.wht u think everyday people converting to islam because of us No because of islamic letrature.so in my opinion we should start from ourselves then our homes then our towns then city then country and then world.
islam is not against humanity.
in last i already mention in other thread that if we learn quran for hadayat then we must get hadayat from allah.but if we learn for other purposes then we get only that specific info.
allah knows better .:jazak:
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
It will be better, if posts remain short and to the point. First please define
the "Religion(deen,mazhab)". The definition should be of your own or
the one on which you agree. Once an agreed definition of Religion is
there, then things can proceed further. thanks.

Thank you brother babadeena for taking part in this thread. I take islam as a deen and not as a mazhab. Deen in my view means rule of law and that means a constitution=NIZAAM. Word DEEN itself is very comprehensive in meanings but basically it means standard of judgement or a yardstick or a straight pole that is firmly founded.

The purpose of divine revelations in my view is to help mankind learn how and why to establish the divine kingdom here on the earth.

My proof for my stand is because if there is no divine kingdom then nothing else can work. The world would be like a lawless jungle and in a chaos. When humanity is in chaos then nothing else can be established because instability does not allow it.

The divine messengers do not come to teach us things which we learn from our own life experience but to give us moral values and guidelines that otherwise are impossible to have.

We knew how to survive even with out divine messengers and we are doing that even today but what we lack is sense of morality ie values and guidelines that teach us how to live properly and prosper. All living things are surviving but we have been given special brains and the divine revelations and are told to make effort to the best of our abilities to establish divine goals according to given guidelines,

This is definition of deen in my view ie the bigger picture.


Mazhab on the other hand is an invented thing nothing at all to do with divine revelation. It was invented to derail people from deen. The questions we need to ask ourselves are;

1)Who invented mazhab?

2)Why?

3)when?

4) how?

Mazhab was invented by people who sought some benefit from it ie imperialists, whom deen stopped from creating castes and classes. By getting deen out of their way they could divide their people into castes and classes and thereby they could justify their use and abuse for their own ends.

For this reason emperors created priestly classes and set them the task of brain washing people so that people become like work horses for them.

Mazhabs were therefore deliberately set up as ritualisms so that people could be made fool of in the name of God. Religions=mazhabs are therefore controlling mechanisms which kings used to control their masses through priests. This is how kings and priests enjoyed using and abusing ordinary people. This is well explained by socialist writers and I have posted some youtube links in my other threads. in the first post here.

Mazhabs were a way invented to give people satisfaction without letting them have what was/is their birthright in material terms.

You are asking me to keep posts short yet asking me questions that need a lot of explanation unless you are well familiar with various religions and secularism as well as various political, social, cultural and economic ideologies, systems, structures and practices.

Mazhab is therefore make belief and fulll of myths, legends, superstition etc etc. The quran has absolutely nothing to do with mazhab. It is book about real things that really matter for humanity as a whole.

Most of the works on quran were produced during imperial periods and were according to their wishes. This is why most of tafaseer and fiqh books for example are full of mythical stories, useless rituals and rewards that have absolutely no benefit for the individual or wider human society.

Therefore I take deen v mazhab seriously. It is a 2nd huge task on its own to learn the quran properly and then teach it to others properly beside earning one's livelihood. When does one get time to take a tasbeeh and sit in a corner to do thousands of repetitions for name of Allah that serve no sensible purpose. Reading the quran instead serves a purpose at least as explained. How? Because by learning the quran we are learning how to set up human society for its proper functioning.

We cannot please Allah by aimlessly mentioning his name rather we have been set a task to establish. If we leave the task aside and do other things in the hope of pleasing Allah then we are not thinking right at all. Islam is not about pleasing God but about serving humanity in the name of God. The best service we can do is take his message properly ourselves then deliver it as far and wide as we can properly. In short we are divine agents on behalf of our prophet.

The quran has been translated wrong because each translator tried to keep to the old interpretations that were done during imperial times. Thus they turned the quran in to a mythical, superstitious book. We have been brain washed to take the quran that way therefore we think that Allah will be angry if used our own brains. All this because people who derailed deen also ensured that they set up traps so that people are not able to recover original meanings of the quran without a big struggle. They did this because to recover the quranic message would mean end of their status as emperors and priests.


I will leave this here just now because the post is already very long. Please do feel free to define islam as you wish the only problem is to fully show how it all comes together and why islam is the only way forward as the new world order for mankind. Our arguments should be so comprehensive that none can withstand them, not even an atheist.

Thanks again for taking part and all the best.
 
Last edited:

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Brother mughal1

if i m not wrong i already mention it that 1st of all we need to be practical in our "fardh"ebadaas.everything works step by step.

second you trying to differ humanity from islam.infact islam teaches best human values.and the only way to teach others 1st ourselves should be practical.wht u think everyday people converting to islam because of us No because of islamic letrature.so in my opinion we should start from ourselves then our homes then our towns then city then country and then world.
islam is not against humanity.
in last i already mention in other thread that if we learn quran for hadayat then we must get hadayat from allah.but if we learn for other purposes then we get only that specific info.
allah knows better .:jazak:


Thank you dear brother for your kind response. We all agree that the quran is word of Allah and that it is preserved perfectly. The problem is with interpretations of the quran. This is why we must decide whether islam is deen or mazhab.

The other reason that forces us to decide whether islam is deen or mazhab is our own existence. What do I mean by that? I mean we are physical beings with physical needs. Our physical needs come before anything and everything because only if we exist anything matters if we do not exist nothing matters. To exist we must have clean air to breath, clean water to drink and good food to eat. It cannot be any other way.

To come to existence and get our needs we depend on other people ie we are interlinked and interdependent. This means our all self interests depend on each other and the natural world out there. This mean we must sort out this between us first and foremost. So far there is no namaaz, no roza, no zakaat, no hajj at all. Why? Because if I don't let you live, you cannot do anything and like wise is the case for me if you start troubling me. Family feuds are always there and brothers kill brothers and even children kill their parents and parents kill children over these things so the whole world would be in chaos without peace=islam.

This argument should leave one in doubt as to why the quran was revealed. We are told Arab history and animosities between tribes as to how they were a war machine.

The quran was revealed to show people how they should live in peace with each other so that then they could get on with other problems of life.

This is why in surah al fatilah=proclamation or open declaration this context of the quran is made clear ie Allah sends his messenger to proclaim in the name of Allah. Who is Allah? Al Rahman, Al Raheem. and that sovereity belongs to Allah alone because he is the creater and the sustainer of the world, Al Rahmaan, Al Raheem. He is the one who provided the yardstick for the mankind to judge their decision and actions by. This is so obvious from the first 4 verses of the quran.

The next verse tells the prophet to tell people to make declaration that they serve me alone and seek help from my revelation. Seeking a path that is firmly founded there from. Like those who passed away and were blessed because they did exactly that. They did not do what they were stopped from.

So anyone who accept the quran as will or plan of Allah for mankind is actually entering an agreement with Allah that he will do as told by Allah.

If we look at surah 2, It is called AL BAQARAH, this word is from root BAA, QAAF and RAA. It means cow, sacred cow, cowardice, conflict, divide, dissension, separation, tearing apart etc.

Which of the so many meaning is correct for the title of this surah? If we read the surah it is talking about groups of people, land and resources, means of production and distribution right from the start after telling us that this is such a book in which there is no doubt. There are muslims, kafirsa and mu na fi qeen. The reason for division is because some want peace so they work for peace in the land and others want wars so they work for wars and yet others conspire for their own goals and join either party that suits them ie chnage their alliance. This leaves us in no doubt that surah al baqarah is a chapter on conflicts between people, their reasons for conflicts and the term whereby these conflicts can be solved if all parties were made to realise the benefits of having peace.

This should now make one think as to why people translated the quran wrongly and who could it be? Also was it mistranslated deliberately or by mistake? This has been done to the whole of the quran. It is because imperialists always wanted wars and people who claimed to be muslims some of them were actually not muslims in their hearts. They were always trying to gain power and once they did, they showed their true colours.

The question is, why people fight? Over land and resources, means of production and distribution. Each party tries to take this world of Allah under its control because whoever controls these controls humanity, because one becomes master of life and death. This is why Allah does not give right to anyone to control his land and its resources because he created all and he created all this for all. Caring and sharing is therefore rule of law of Allah. Anyone who thinks that anyone else has the right to control the land and its resources, means of production and distribution is called a mushrik. It is because such a person would become like a god for the rest of the people to control them.

According to the quran all people are equal before the law of Allah ie prophets and followers just to make it very clear. It is not right for prophet that Allah appoints him and then he tells people take me as your master.

Once people start reading the quran in this context a lot of problems will disappear that are due to our make beliefs.

After explaining the fight between the people and conflct resolutions, the quran brings in stories of the past eg story of Adam, bani israel etc. Telling us what were their conflicts about and how they solved.

Hopefully this also explains why the quran is the only solution and not any other ideology that is not based on principles of the quran.

So people who do not try to understand the quran in its proper context cannot benefit from it nor can they benefit anyone else. The quran is useless for people who do not learn what it is for and how they can make use of it.

If the whole world is on fire, hiding in the house is not going to be of much help. This is why we must ensure world out there is in right frame of mind that it does not burn itself out. We are all part of it so we better wake up and work towards saving it that is islam. The message of the quran is irrefutable by anyone no matter a muslim or a nonmuslim. It fiormly fixed as no other thing.

I shall leave it at that for the moment.

thanks again and all the best.
 
Last edited:

babadeena

Minister (2k+ posts)
Thank you brother babadeena for taking part in this thread. I take islam as a deen and not as a mazhab. Deen in my view means rule of law and that means a constitution=NIZAAM. Word DEEN itself is very comprehensive in meanings but basically it means standard of judgement or a yardstick or a straight pole that is firmly founded.

The purpose of divine revelations in my view is to help mankind learn how and why to establish the divine kingdom here on the earth.

My proof for my stand is because if there is no divine kingdom then nothing else can work. The world would be like a lawless jungle and in a chaos. When humanity is in chaos then nothing else can be established because instability does not allow it.

The divine messengers do not come to teach us things which we learn from our own life experience but to give us moral values and guidelines that otherwise are impossible to have.

We knew how to survive even with out divine messengers and we are doing that even today but what we lack is sense of morality ie values and guidelines that teach us how to live properly and prosper. All living things are surviving but we have been given special brains and the divine revelations and are told to make effort to the best of our abilities to establish divine goals according to given guidelines,

This is definition of deen in my view ie the bigger picture.


Mazhab on the other hand is an invented thing nothing at all to do with divine revelation. It was invented to derail people from deen. The questions we need to ask ourselves are;

1)Who invented mazhab?

2)Why?

3)when?

4) how?

Mazhab was invented by people who sought some benefit from it ie imperialists, whom deen stopped from creating castes and classes. By getting deen out of their way they could divide their people into castes and classes and thereby they could justify their use and abuse for their own ends.

For this reason emperors created priestly classes and set them the task of brain washing people so that people become like work horses for them.

Mazhabs were therefore deliberately set up as ritualisms so that people could be made fool of in the name of God. Religions=mazhabs are therefore controlling mechanisms which kings used to control their masses through priests. This is how kings and priests enjoyed using and abusing ordinary people. This is well explained by socialist writers and I have posted some youtube links in my other threads. in the first post here.

Mazhabs were a way invented to give people satisfaction without letting them have what was/is their birthright in material terms.

You are asking me to keep posts short yet asking me questions that need a lot of explanation unless you are well familiar with various religions and secularism as well as various political, social, cultural and economic ideologies, systems, structures and practices.

Mazhab is therefore make belief and fulll of myths, legends, superstition etc etc. The quran has absolutely nothing to do with mazhab. It is book about real things that really matter for humanity as a whole.

Most of the works on quran were produced during imperial periods and were according to their wishes. This is why most of tafaseer and fiqh books for example are full of mythical stories, useless rituals and rewards that have absolutely no benefit for the individual or wider human society.

Therefore I take deen v mazhab seriously. It is a 2nd huge task on its own to learn the quran properly and then teach it to others properly beside earning one's livelihood. When does one get time to take a tasbeeh and sit in a corner to do thousands of repetitions for name of Allah that serve no sensible purpose. Reading the quran instead serves a purpose at least as explained. How? Because by learning the quran we are learning how to set up human society for its proper functioning.

We cannot please Allah by aimlessly mentioning his name rather we have been set a task to establish. If we leave the task aside and do other things in the hope of pleasing Allah then we are not thinking right at all. Islam is not about pleasing God but about serving humanity in the name of God. The best service we can do is take his message properly ourselves then deliver it as far and wide as we can properly. In short we are divine agents on behalf of our prophet.

The quran has been translated wrong because each translator tried to keep to the old interpretations that were done during imperial times. Thus they turned the quran in to a mythical, superstitious book. We have been brain washed to take the quran that way therefore we think that Allah will be angry if used our own brains. All this because people who derailed deen also ensured that they set up traps so that people are not able to recover original meanings of the quran without a big struggle. They did this because to recover the quranic message would mean end of their status as emperors and priests.


I will leave this here just now because the post is already very long. Please do feel free to define islam as you wish the only problem is to fully show how it all comes together and why islam is the only way forward as the new world order for mankind. Our arguments should be so comprehensive that none can withstand them, not even an atheist.

Thanks again for taking part and all the best.

Brother Mughal1,
I requested to be brief and to the point. It was a simple question of "Definition" of Religion(Deen).
Let us for a whiile put aside Madhab, translations, divine kingdom, or Imperialism, Kings, vested interests,
etc etc. etc. I suppose you, at a moment, have so many and so many things/concept/ideas in your
mind and wish to immediately encompass everything in one post. That leaves to nowhere:
DEAN RELIGION:
CONSISTS OF SET OF UNSEEN CONCEPTS, LAID-DOWN PRINCIPLES AND PRACTICES ESTABLISHED
BY A DIVINE AUTHORITY KNOWN AS THE GOD, WHICH A HUMAN IN HIS/HER INDIVIDUAL CAPACITY
OR THE SOCIETY AS A WHOLE, BELIEVES, ACCEPTS AND PERFORMS

Please let me know if you agree totally, partially or disagree totally or partially, with
brief details of your disagreement. thanks.
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Brother Mughal1,
I requested to be brief and to the point. It was a simple question of "Definition" of Religion(Deen).
Let us for a whiile put aside Madhab, translations, divine kingdom, or Imperialism, Kings, vested interests,
etc etc. etc. I suppose you, at a moment, have so many and so many things/concept/ideas in your
mind and wish to immediately encompass everything in one post. That leaves to nowhere:
DEAN RELIGION:
CONSISTS OF SET OF UNSEEN CONCEPTS, LAID-DOWN PRINCIPLES AND PRACTICES ESTABLISHED
BY A DIVINE AUTHORITY KNOWN AS THE GOD, WHICH A HUMAN IN HIS/HER INDIVIDUAL CAPACITY
OR THE SOCIETY AS A WHOLE, BELIEVES, ACCEPTS AND PERFORMS

Please let me know if you agree totally, partially or disagree totally or partially, with
brief details of your disagreement. thanks.



Thank you dear brother for your response.

I think it is of vital importance that we first put forth over all picture of what islam means to us personally as per our own understanding of the quran in light of whatever we know so far, because that is the very key to understanding bits and pieces and their place within the wider picture. In any map that is not laid out fully one has difficulty in trying to figure out where one is and where one wants to go and how or why. This is why in any map that is in pages eg global, national, local or any picture that is in pieces eg jig saw puzzle there is a key or picture with it because without having some sort of idea as to how to figure things out is not at all easy. This is why rules must be sort that keep us right as we go along. Just taking a meaning of a word randomly having no idea of what the over all concept is we can end up sticking wrong meanings to thing.

The other problem is due to conflict of interest between opposing parties there is a lot of misinformation and disinformation about. It is because each side wants to influence others and therefore anyone can drag things one way or the other so we need to have some fixed yardstick whereby we could judge why something is right or wrong. This is why some history of islam is important to know because it tells us what people have been doing to the book and how and why.

If islam was a religion then imperial forces regardless muslim or nonmuslim would have nothing to worry because religion is between god and man nothing to do with real world. There were plenty of religion before islam and after islam and are till around even today. People go in mundirs, gurudawaras, synagogues, churches, temples, altars etc. They all believe that there is ultimately only one source of all origin. They go through various ritualisms which they assume god told them through his chosen people eg prophets, saints and sages or wise men ad even god incarnates. In all this God is given a useless description and role by man and man has given and useless rule to himself. I am saying useless because it has no real benefit for mankind. A man sits in a jungle busy with his counter repeating name of his god or whatever one believes in. Likewise man prays to his god. Likewise people go through hardships thinking they are pleasing their god. May be stay hungry or stand on one leg or whatever pleases them. Likewise they may visit places to pleae their god. In all this there is no real benefit for others and hardly any for oneself. Likewise people may give a part of their earnings to help the poor but even that is useless because even if some give to some people, others take it away from them. It is like going to well to fetch water in a container that has hole in the bottom.

All this is useless for mankind unless first thing is done first ie the rule of law. Unless people live by a rule that makes life good for them there is nothing in life to live for or to establish regardless about next world or this world. It is because instability factor is a not something that we can ignore. It will be fatal for our existence and establishing anything at all. This is why Islam is not a religion but a DIVINE rule of law for mankind. This is why I know for a fact that my interpretation of the quran is correct and to the point because it makes sense and it works at least on the paper till we work to establish it in reality.

Before we manufacture a product it must be ensured at conceptual level that it will work eg we do not have to put a computer program to work on a computer to show that it works but even at development stage we can see that it will work and if odd thing comes up later that can be sorted out. Likewise before anyone could be asked to accept islam we need to be able to show them at least on paper how islam is a better than religious rule as well as secular rule. To do this we ourselves must sit and think it out ourselves and then explain it to each other and then to wider world. Once we are able to do that people will come running to it not because we will force them with guns but that they will be able to rationalize it if we succeeded in explaining it to them sensibly. This is how the world would become a better place wherein people will be free to do what they like within set divine limits ie values and guidelines.

Otherwise as things are going on in the name of religion and secularism, more and more people are getting more and more dispossessed and life is getting impossibly difficult and self destructive so man has no time for god. So many people convert from one religion to another, not because any religion is true but because the hope is that new community they join will give them worldly help that they need or that they are unhappy with religions and they are trying them one by one and ultimately people are turning to agnosticism and atheism.

It is for these like reason I thought I should contribute whatever I have learned in several decades of my life for the benefit of others. Some people may not like my ideas but I know they will come round because there is no any other way out of this trap that we are caught in.

This is why to me islam is a deen and not a dogmatic creed. DEEN=YARDSTICK for the world to live by if they wish to be free, just, fair, compassionate, progressive and prosperous. Only deeni concept of islam can land us in good life in this world as well as in hereafter.

Sorry for the length of my post but these were inportant points to bring into the argument. Thanks again, regards and all the best.
 

babadeena

Minister (2k+ posts)
Thank you dear brother for your response.

I think it is of vital importance that we first put forth over all picture of what islam means to us personally as per our own understanding of the quran in light of whatever we know so far, because that is the very key to understanding bits and pieces and their place within the wider picture. In any map that is not laid out fully one has difficulty in trying to figure out where one is and where one wants to go and how or why. This is why in any map that is in pages eg global, national, local or any picture that is in pieces eg jig saw puzzle there is a key or picture with it because without having some sort of idea as to how to figure things out is not at all easy. This is why rules must be sort that keep us right as we go along. Just taking a meaning of a word randomly having no idea of what the over all concept is we can end up sticking wrong meanings to thing.

The other problem is due to conflict of interest between opposing parties there is a lot of misinformation and disinformation about. It is because each side wants to influence others and therefore anyone can drag things one way or the other so we need to have some fixed yardstick whereby we could judge why something is right or wrong. This is why some history of islam is important to know because it tells us what people have been doing to the book and how and why.

If islam was a religion then imperial forces regardless muslim or nonmuslim would have nothing to worry because religion is between god and man nothing to do with real world. There were plenty of religion before islam and after islam and are till around even today. People go in mundirs, gurudawaras, synagogues, churches, temples, altars etc. They all believe that there is ultimately only one source of all origin. They go through various ritualisms which they assume god told them through his chosen people eg prophets, saints and sages or wise men ad even god incarnates. In all this God is given a useless description and role by man and man has given and useless rule to himself. I am saying useless because it has no real benefit for mankind. A man sits in a jungle busy with his counter repeating name of his god or whatever one believes in. Likewise man prays to his god. Likewise people go through hardships thinking they are pleasing their god. May be stay hungry or stand on one leg or whatever pleases them. Likewise they may visit places to pleae their god. In all this there is no real benefit for others and hardly any for oneself. Likewise people may give a part of their earnings to help the poor but even that is useless because even if some give to some people, others take it away from them. It is like going to well to fetch water in a container that has hole in the bottom.

All this is useless for mankind unless first thing is done first ie the rule of law. Unless people live by a rule that makes life good for them there is nothing in life to live for or to establish regardless about next world or this world. It is because instability factor is a not something that we can ignore. It will be fatal for our existence and establishing anything at all. This is why Islam is not a religion but a DIVINE rule of law for mankind. This is why I know for a fact that my interpretation of the quran is correct and to the point because it makes sense and it works at least on the paper till we work to establish it in reality.

Before we manufacture a product it must be ensured at conceptual level that it will work eg we do not have to put a computer program to work on a computer to show that it works but even at development stage we can see that it will work and if odd thing comes up later that can be sorted out. Likewise before anyone could be asked to accept islam we need to be able to show them at least on paper how islam is a better than religious rule as well as secular rule. To do this we ourselves must sit and think it out ourselves and then explain it to each other and then to wider world. Once we are able to do that people will come running to it not because we will force them with guns but that they will be able to rationalize it if we succeeded in explaining it to them sensibly. This is how the world would become a better place wherein people will be free to do what they like within set divine limits ie values and guidelines.

Otherwise as things are going on in the name of religion and secularism, more and more people are getting more and more dispossessed and life is getting impossibly difficult and self destructive so man has no time for god. So many people convert from one religion to another, not because any religion is true but because the hope is that new community they join will give them worldly help that they need or that they are unhappy with religions and they are trying them one by one and ultimately people are turning to agnosticism and atheism.

It is for these like reason I thought I should contribute whatever I have learned in several decades of my life for the benefit of others. Some people may not like my ideas but I know they will come round because there is no any other way out of this trap that we are caught in.

This is why to me islam is a deen and not a dogmatic creed. DEEN=YARDSTICK for the world to live by if they wish to be free, just, fair, compassionate, progressive and prosperous. Only deeni concept of islam can land us in good life in this world as well as in hereafter.

Sorry for the length of my post but these were inportant points to bring into the argument. Thanks again, regards and all the best.

These points can be discussed one by one. But first I still wait:
"""Please let me know if you agree totally, partially or disagree totally or partially, with
brief details of your disagreement. thanks.
"""
We have to agree or disagree on some basic thing first?
 

M Ali Khan

Minister (2k+ posts)
Tumhara deen, tumhara masla. mera deen, mera masla.

Tumhara deem, mera masla nahin. mera deen tumhara masla nahin.

Laikin agar masla banao gey, tau phir doosroun ki rai aur baatoun par tayyar raho aur apna tamasha mat banao!

Baat karney sey ghabrao mat. doosroun k ideas, rai, nazariyaat ko samjho aur parho takeh dunya ka tumhein andaza ho!

We are all equals and are all humans. We have a lot more in common with each other than our so-called ideological religious differences.

Everyone has families, everyone has dreams, everyone knows that hurting others without justification is wrong, and everyone knows that helping someone in need is real love and compassion. Everyone, regardless of religion, knows that

Think about it.

I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight to death to protect your right of saying what you want to say!

agar aap sab yeh jumla samajh saktay hain, tau mera kaam yahan khatam :)
 
Last edited:

al-boriqee

Citizen
Most people are afraid to talk about it but I think there is nothing to be afraid of. Let us freely but sensibly share our opinions and see the outcome for ourselves.

the prophet salallahu alaihi wa sallam said
"whoever feels no shame, can do as they wish"
this comprehensive statement entails two meaning diametrically opposed to each other.

It would be very helpful that each participant explains what they think islam, deen, mazhab and secularism is.

2. Islam is the religion of Allah Subhaanahu revealed to the prophets of Allah and completed by the Messenger of Allah and seal of the Prophet, Muhammad ibn Abdullah salallahu alaihi wa sallam and Islam is that you testify that there is no deity deserving of all/or any aspects of our worship except the Creator of all things and that Muhammad is the His slave and final messenger sent by Him to convey guidance to mankind, thereafter it is to establish the ritual salaah, and to fast in the month of ramadhaan, and to pay the zakah, and to perform Hajj based on one's ability. And the head of Islam is the salah and the hump of Islam and its back is jihaad fisabeelillah.

Islam, and therefore knowledge, is based on what Allah says, what the Messenger says, and what the sahaaba say about what Allah or the Messenger said.

2. deen is snynonymous with Islam and has the same definition. In the legislative sense, Islam refers more specifically to ritual acts whereas the "deen" refers to the preservation of any of these acts and what is included in Islam. However, outside of this legal terminology, both are synonymous.

3. Madhaab is referring to the interpretative law whereby the Lawgiver (ash-Shaar'i) has not clarified in detail a particular issue and has thus left that particular matter general. Thus a madhaab, or its role, merely functions to determine the exact intent of the lawgiver. This is what "fiqh" is. In the language of the Arabs, fiqh means simply "fahm" or understanding and in the Islamic legislative terminology, it means "understanding what was intended (by the Lawgiver)".

4. Secularism is an ideology in which the power to legislate in the land as applied law, common law, etc is stripped from the Lawgiver (that would be Allah, and indirectly His Messenger and indirectly the rightly guided khulafaa) and that power is then transferred to the people. It is the neo-modern and modern form of idolatry because prior to the commission of the Messenger of Allah, most idolatry was constricted to acts of worship. Idolatry in terms of transferring the attributes of Allah to created beings happened during the time of Isa alaihi salam and became noticeable in the time of the Prophet Muhammad. From this time on forward, the concept of transferring the right to legislate into the realm of men along with Allah (or stripping Allah which is what secularism essentially was invented to perform) gained further affluence. The first incident in the Islamic nation in which the complete abolishment of revealed law took place was with the Mongols after the fall of the Abbassi dynasty.

Please explain also how in your view any of these can solve our problems? If it could be proven that any of these can help diagnose and solve our problems then that is what we should go far and propagate it through out our country and our world.

that will prove to be more difficult to do not in so much with regards to the proofs, but more with respect to what a person "views" as proof and what they feel Allah's decisions hold in their own personal ideological persuasion.

For instance, for a soul whose fitrah has not been contaminated or who has some level of morality and ethics and thereby fears their Lord, if one were to say "Islam is the solution" and then quotes the ayaah of Allah
"And this day i have perfected this religion for you and chose for you Islam, and that it may reign over all other ways of life...' all the way to the end of the ayaah, then such a person would ipso facto concede to this very fact.
However, a soul who is deprived of these characteristics will not be content with a declaration of Allah on the subject and a clear indication of this would be to seek out "other arguments" and views of other "people".

And here would be my point. If Allah's words are insufficient to convince someone of the reality of existence, and yet other peoples views are "sufficient", then on what basis can discussion take place.

as for my take, of course I believe Islam is the ultimate answer to our problems. It is the ONLY home or haven of what the western world is trying to achieve regarding "freedom" (and as the merger of state and corporate powers continues to emerge in the west i.e. fascism, the western world is beginning to wake up that their perceived freedom is actually a fraud imposed in their own mind). It is the only haven that brings forth the most resolute form of justice.
As for madhaabs, it solves modern day problems in terms of the religious malpractice that is being produced in the name of Islam by freelance interpreters and commentators of Islam either from the media, or their allies among the progressive and modernist i.e. revisionist movements.

as for secularism, well, if people believe that the chaos we have is actually a good thing, then continue on the path of secularism.

asalamu alaikum
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Have we understood the quran properly?


The quran is collection of 114 Surahs. Each Surah has a name. The first Surah in the quran is called AL-FAATIHA. The question is, why is surah Al Faatiha called by this name?

SURAH AL FATIHA=The Divine Proclamation is called by this name because the quran is a message and this message is from someone to someone. It is necessary that sender of the message introduces himself and then tells the message and its purpose. Surah AL-FAATIHA serves this purpose.

In olden times when a king wanted to make any public announcement or declaration, he used to send out his criers who would let public know what the king wanted them to know.

Allah sent his messengers and told them what to announce to mankind in the name of Allah.

1)Proclaim in the name of Allah, the gracious, the merciful

2)that sovereignty belongs to Allah because He is the sustainer of the kingdoms of the universe.

3)the gracious, the merciful

4) The provider of the constitution for mankind to live by

The one with sole right to rule in the jurisdiction of the universe. The only one by whose laws all things are governed in the universe and the same is needed to be done by people ie they too must abide by his constitution ie rule, law and judgement of Allah.

If we look at the interpretation of the quran this way then we can see that Allah leaves us in no doubt as to who he is and what right he has to do as he pleases and why we must live by his guidance.

Please look up for meaning of word ILAAH=God=KHUDAA. It means ruler of the universe. Setting up any other ruler in the kingdom of Allah is therefore like creating other gods. Which is therefore called SHIRK, the unforgivable crime in sight of Allah against humanity because by not following the set laws, program or constitution people end up in terrible suffering. It is like parents tell children don't put your hand in fire it burns, but a child goes and does that and as a result suffers. Since creator set up things his way and he tells how he set them up, following his advice will be found helpful and going about experimenting without thinking the consequences will land one in trouble after trouble.


This is just first half of the very first surah of the quran.

Basically this is a double declaration ie an agreement between Allah and mankind.


We are supposed to confirm that we will not serve any other ruler and seek any help we need from Allah alone by way of his revealed constitution for guidance. So help us to the path that is firmly founded in reason and leads to peace and prosperity. The path that was walked upon by those before us who benefited with peace and prosperity by following the divine advice or program and they suffered not indignation because they strayed not from his constitution.

As is clear from the explanation that Allah is not some kind of monster to be feared but a father figure who advises mankind like his children as to how they should live in this world to remain safe from all sorts of consequential troubles. The quran is all about Allah's explanation for us as to why he created universe, how he created it and how it works and then an advice for mankind that we should learn all this and try our best to fit-in in the divine scheme of things. In short like a good father tells his children about his family business as to how he has set up things for their benefit so that they understand and fit-in in the business to benefit from it, Allah too is telling people to be sensible and get on with life in this world as told so that you have peaceful and prosperous life both in here and in hereafter in the name of Allah.


As one can see from interpretation of surah al faatiha, the quran is not about make beliefs and ritualisms rather it is about establishing the divine rule of law in the divine kingdom for the good of mankind and that is so because if there is peace in the outside world then there can be peace in your country, in your city, in your house and inside yourself. In this surah Allah is advising people like a father figure, letting them know that this is how I have set up my business so if you understand it and work in it as told then you will not suffer but if you ignore my advice then you will mess up things from the way I have set them up and then as a result you will suffer the consequences so it is better for you not to do things that will lead you to pain and suffering and destruction by your own hands.

The quran declares war on religion and secularism both but the question is why? It is because religion is all about theocracy based on make beliefs ie accepting the rule by mullahs who have no sense of how the real world out there works and secularism is all about accepting the rule by ruling elite to further their capitalism and free market idea at the expense of humanity. According to the quran both are root of all harm and destruction in the world and that is exactly what we are seeing even today and we can see the same thing from our history books. These are undeniable facts. This proves to us how right the quran was and how wrong are mankind who do not take the advice of God seriously. The quranic advice is to establish divine rule of law by installing the divine constitution and all live by it as a single family caring and sharing. Allah has created this world for people to test themselves as to how much they can struggle and what can they establish for the good of each other. Those who work hard in this struggle for survival with intact dignity will shine brilliantly and those who are hell bent on destroying each other face doom and gloom in this life as well as in hereafter.

The purpose of divine revelations is to help mankind learn how and why to establish the divine kingdom here on the earth. It is all about Allah telling mankind how to live in this world so that people could have a great life because Allah created universe and set it up to work and he explains all this in the quran very clearly so that we understand things and fit in. It is in a way like good parents giving a good advice to their kids and if kids are also good they make good use of this advice.

The point is that if there is no divine kingdom then nothing else can work because either you have stability or you have instability. So the world can be pit of hell like a lawless jungle or a blissful garden, it all depends on whether we want law and order or lawlessness and destruction. When humanity is in chaos then nothing else can be established because instability does not allow it. You grow crops putting hard work in it but when it is ready someone comes along and takes it away or destroys it. Or you are sitting in a car which keeps starting and stopping and changing speed the while you are trying to do something eg draw a picture. This instability will cause you problems ie it will not let you do things as you would be able to if you were sitting in peace in a stable environment. It is for this reason proper quranic concept of islam puts emphasis on stability ie peace. If there is peace in the outside world then there could be peace in the country you live in and peace in the city you live in and peace in the house you live in.

Peace or war either come from outside inwards or go from inside outwards. This means that people must keep their eyes open and not let anything or anyone disturb peace or instability as disturbances and wars will destroy whatever comes in their way. Even if we have instability already we must contain it and bring about the peaceful state. So committing ourselves to peace and working for it is absolutely vital if humanity is at all to survive and live a life worth living. The quran is full of verses that tell us do this. The quran therefore must be understood in this context and not in any other useless context that makes absolutely no sense.

The divine messengers do not come to teach us things which we are supposed to have learned from our own life experience but to give us heavenly set goals to achieve according to heavenly guidelines ie moral values that are otherwise impossible to have. Islam is not for doing so called spiritual things in the hope of hereafter which make no sense but it is about how people should learn to live in this world so that they could turn this world in to a blissful garden for themselves. Allah has provided people with everything they will ever need and he gave them his advice in form of information so that people could create a world of their own out of it using their brains and bodies using whatever is out there in the world. Allah set people goals eg to achieve freedom, justice, fairness, compassion, brotherhood, progress and prosperity for mankind as a whole in the name of God so that they are rewarded with even better life in hereafter. The guidelines are obvious eg don't kill each other, don't hurt each other, don't steal from each other etc etc. So if we do not read the quran to understand it purposefully then we are wasting our lives and efforts. So if we don't learn the quran properly and teach it to others properly then we cannot come together nor bring others closer to ourselves as one people so we cannot create a better human society and so can remain in pain and suffering.

We knew how to survive even without divine messengers and we are doing that even today but just like animals nothing more. What we lacked was sense of proper goals that led to peace and guidelines that taught us how to achieve those goals ie how to live properly in peace and prosper. All living things are surviving but we have been given special brains, freewill, the divine revelations and are told to make effort to the best of our abilities to establish divine goals according to given guidelines. This is definition of deen or if you like the bigger picture. Deen is not mazhab because mazhab separates man from the word realities as well as God from the real world issues. Islam is therefore deen not mazhab. So islamic struggle is all about establishing islam=peace and prosperity in the world therefore struggle for survival of the fittest to take advantage of others is unislamic and that also means establishing instability and war in the world because when people compete negatively one has to lose so that other could win but as a result humanity is set back. The time people spend trying to finish off each other like animals could be better spent trying raise level of human dignity through progress and prosperity. Deen is divine but mazhab on the other hand is an invented thing nothing at all to do with divine revelation. It was invented to derail people from deen. The questions we need to ask ourselves are;

1)Who invented mazhab? 2)Why? 3)when? 4)how?

Mazhab was invented by people who sought some benefit from it ie imperialists, whom deen stopped from creating castes and classes to set people against each other to take advantage of them ie divide by confusing them and then take over and rule them or use and abuse them at will. By getting deen out of their way the kings could divide their people into castes and classes and thereby they could justify their use and abuse for their own ends in the name of God through setting up their priestly classes. For this reason emperors created priestly classes and set them the task of brain washing masses of people so that people become like work horses or slave labour for them. Mazhabs were therefore deliberately set up as spiritual ritualisms so that people could be made fool of in the name of God. Religions=mazhabs are therefore controlling mechanisms which kings used as tools to control their masses through priests and used them for their own purposes as hunters use their dogs to hunt for themselves. This is how kings and priests enjoyed using and abusing ordinary masses. This is well explained by socialist writers and some videos can be seen on that on youtube as well.

This also shows why kings built grand religious institutions and placed therein their own priests who furthered their own agendas rather than building educational institutions to educate their masses for their own good or building hospitals and other things for them to make their lives better. Mazhabs were a way invented to give people satisfaction without letting them have what was/is their birthright in material terms. DEEN V MAZHAB is an issue of such importance that needs a lot of explanation unless one is well familiar with various religions and secularism as well as various political, social, cultural and economic ideologies, systems, structures and practices.

Mazhab is therefore make belief and full of myths, mysteries, magical stories, legends, superstition etc etc. The quran has absolutely nothing to do with mazhab. It is a book about real things that really matter for humanity as a whole. Most of the works on quran were produced during imperial periods and were according to ruler's wishes. This is why most of translations or interpretations, tafaseer and fiqh books for example are full of mythical stories, useless rituals and rewards that have absolutely no benefit for the individual or wider human society. They were put in place to engage people so that they do not have time think about things that matter. Otherwise masses would be too alert about their daily needs and would keep troubling rulers to provide them with. It is like parents leave their kids to watch tv the while they get busy with doing their own things so that kids do not disturb them. This is how ruling elite treats its masses even today by engaging them in things that are useless so that masses do not disturb their rulers for what they need.

Therefore taking deen v mazhab seriously is absolutely necessary. It is a second huge task on its own to learn the quran properly and then teach it to others properly beside earning one's livelihood. When does one get time to take a tasbeeh and sit in a corner isolated to do thousands of repetitions for name of Allah that serves no sensible purpose. Reading the quran instead serves a vital purpose at least as explained. How? Because by learning the quran we are learning how to set up human society for its proper functioning. It is because we do not learn the quran that we live like animals ie disorganised, no sense of purpose or direction and no guidelines to follow.

We do not realise that we cannot please Allah by aimlessly mentioning his name instead we have been set a task to establish. If we leave the task aside and do other things in the hope of pleasing Allah then we are not thinking right at all. Islam is not about pleasing God but about serving humanity in the name of God. The best service we can do is take his message properly ourselves then deliver it as far and wide as we can properly. In short we are divine agents on behalf of our prophet to learn terms of unity and let them know to others so that they too come and join us and together we make a better world for all of us.

The quran has been translated wrong because each translator tried to keep to the old interpretations that were done during imperial times for their purposes. Thus they turned the quran in to a mythical, superstitious book. It is for this reason our so called educated elite takes the quran for a joke. On the contrary our masses have been brain washed to take the quran as book of magic stories therefore they sit idle praying but doing not the things needed to be done. We have been brain washed into thinking that Allah will be angry if used our own brains and tried to understand the quran ourselves. All this because people who derailed deen in to mazhab also ensured that they set up traps both mental and physical. Likewise so that people are not able to recover original meanings of the quran without a big struggle they introduce false rules for understanding of the quran. They did this because to recover the quranic message would mean end of their game plan and status as emperors and priests. Since the problem is with interpretations of the quran so we must decide whether islam is deen or mazhab for ourselves.

The other reason that forces us to decide whether islam is deen or mazhab is our own existence. What do I mean by that? I mean we are physical beings with physical needs. Our physical needs come before anything and everything because only if we exist anything matters if we do not exist nothing matters. To exist we must have clean air to breathe, clean water to drink and good food to eat etc. It cannot be any other way. The question is, if these things are important then what does God say about it in the quran? Before we could realise what God says in the quran let us know some facts that we see for ourselves.

To come to existence and get our needs we depend on other people ie we are interlinked and interdependent. This means our all self interests depend on each other and the natural world out there. This mean we must sort out this between us first and foremost. So far there is no namaaz, no roza, no zakaat, no hajj at all. Why? Because if we do not live nothing matters and if we live then we can only do what we allow each other to do. If I don't let you live then you cannot do any of these things and likewise is the case for me if you start troubling me and not let me have peace to do what I want to do or need to do. Family feuds are always there and brothers kill brothers and children kill even their parents and parents kill children over these things so the whole world would be in chaos without peace=islam. This argument should leave one in no doubt as to why the quran was revealed. We are told Arab history and animosities between tribes as to how they were always at war with each other but ended up a single brotherhood. We too need to find that magic in the quran and use it to get that unity and prosperity. The quran was revealed to show people how they should live in peace with each other so that then they could get on with solving other real life problems with help of each other. So this is what islam is all about first and foremost ie terms for peace between us so that we then let each other live in peace and get on with doing other things that need to be done.

This is why in surah al fatiha=proclamation or open declaration this context of the quran is made very clear ie Allah sends his messenger to proclaim in the name of Allah. Who is Allah? Al Rahman, Al Raheem. and that sovereignty belongs to Allah alone because he is the creator and the sustainer of the world, Al Rahmaan, Al Raheem. He is the one who provided the yardstick for the mankind to judge their decision and actions by. This is so obvious from the first 4 verses of the quran.

The next verse tells the prophet to tell people to make declaration that they will serve me alone and seek help only and only from my revelation by studying the real world for themselves. Seeking a path that is firmly founded there from. Like those who passed away and were blessed because they did exactly that. They did not do what they were stopped from and that is why they prospered and their stories are told in the quran.

So anyone who accept the quran as will or plan of Allah for mankind is actually entering an agreement with Allah that he will do as told by Allah. It is like a father advising his children and then asking have you heard what I said and do you understand and agree to use this advice. So being muslims we are supposed to say yes, we hear you and will obey you. In fact if we read the quran at time of death prophet yaqoob asks his sons by whose rule will you govern your living? They all replied by rule of Allah.

If we look at surah 2, It is called AL BAQARAH, this word is from root BAA, QAAF and RAA. It means cow, sacred cow, cowardice, conflict, divide, dissension, separation, tearing apart etc. If we then look at mankind we see each and every person fighting with others. The same fight extends throughout whole mankind. The question is what are they fighting for? The only answer is over land and resources, means of production and distribution. This means that issue of live and let live is connected to livelihood. Whoever controls livelihood of anyone controls the person or animal. Your dog is loyal to you because you make him dependent on you for his living. We are loyal to our patents because they feed us. This means people are loyal to livelihood when that livelihood comes from another source we become loyal to that source. Whoever we assume feeds us we listen to that person because that person is our master our God. This is what shirk is all about ie accepting others as Gods instead of Allah.

This is why none is given the right to own land and resources, means of production and distribution because all these are birth right of each and every person as decided by the creator himself. So anyone who thinks he is the owner of things then that person is declaring he is God instead of Allah so he has declared war against God and humanity. It is for this reason such a person is declared a kafir eg firaon=pharaoh. It is because such people declare war against God and humanity therefore islam is all about telling people their rightful place in divine scheme of things. This is two nation theory ie islam v kufar. A person must accept that all belongs to God or that it does not. If it is accepted all belongs to God then one has to use it as told by God but if not then one will use it as one likes. This is what war between islam and kufar is all about and this is what Surah AL-BAQRAH is all about. It lays down terms for people to unite and prosper or remain divided and suffer by keep on fighting over things as to who can take control over things and hold others hostage. The question is, what does word baqarah mean and what exactly is Allah trying to tell us by giving this surah title with such a word? Worde cow=cowardice mindset or attitude or approach to issues. Word cow stand for holy cow= imperialist religion= make beliefs and useless dogmas as well as something that people hold as sacred beyond questioning eg power of kings and their right to be kings and master over others. Word cow can also mean dealing with issues of unity and disunity between people or mankind head on or showing cowardice instead. Showing cowardice in face of unrelenting senseless opposition that persists in attacks is inviting more and harm and destruction. So the lesson would be to be strong where it is appropriate and be humble where that becomes a necessity to help honourable reconciliation.

So which of the so many meaning is correct for the title of this surah? If we read the surah it is talking about groups of people, land and resources, means of production and distribution right from the start after telling us that this is such a book in which there is no doubt. There are muslims, kafirs and **********. The reason for division is because some want peace so they work for peace in the land and others want wars so they work for wars and yet others conspire for their own goals and join either party that suits them ie change their alliance and loyalties. This leaves us in no doubt that surah al baqarah is a chapter on conflicts between people, their reasons for conflicts and the terms whereby these conflicts can be resolved if all parties were made to realise the benefits of having peace between them on equitable and dignified terms. So this surah is all about conflicts resolutions between people.

This should now make one think as to why people translated the quran wrongly and who could it be? Also was it mistranslated deliberately or by mistake? This has been done to the whole of the quran. It is because imperialists always wanted wars and people who claimed to be muslims some of them were actually not muslims in their hearts. They were always trying to gain power and once they did, they showed their true colours.

The question is, why people fight? Over land and resources, means of production and distribution. Each party tries to take this world of Allah under its control because whoever controls these things, controls humanity, because one becomes master of life and death of everyone else. This is why Allah does not give right to anyone to control his land and its resources because he created all and he created all this for all. Caring and sharing is therefore rule of law of Allah. Anyone who thinks that anyone else has the right to control the land and its resources, means of production and distribution is called a mushrik. It is because such a person would become like a god for the rest of the people to control them. This explains concept of two nation theory or us versus them. If one does not accept the quranic terms for peace between mankind then one has to put forth his own terms and they need to be at least equally good as the quranic term or they will be rejected. The quran challenges mankind that they cannot come up with peace terms as good as in the quran ever. Yet if people reject the quranic terms for peace then who is at fault? The quran or mankind? Muslims or kufaar? The quran is not a book of double standards it is all about one rule for all. No negative discrimination at all. The quranic discrimination is only and only for organisational purpose to give people identity for knowing each other for assigning rights and responsibilities.

According to the quran all people are equal before the law of Allah ie prophets and followers just to make it very clear. It is not right even for a prophet that Allah appoints him and then he tells people take me as your master or ruler. This is why islam is anti mullahism and anti imperialism and anti secularism or democracy that is based upon caste and class divide or any other negative base. If even a prophet is not allowed to be the ruler then how can anyone else be allowed to become one? This is why these people who wanted to be rulers instead of Allah changed the interpretation of the book so that then the way could be open for them to use and abuse people at will. They spread ignorance instead of knowledge and that is why muslims despite having the quran in their hands were unable to create the divine kingdom the quran guides to. It was all result of unquestioned indoctrination generation after generation.

So once people start reading the quran in this context a lot of problems will disappear that are due to our make beliefs and give rise to personality cults.

After explaining the fight between the people and conflict resolutions, the quran brings in stories of the past eg story of Adam, bani israel etc. Telling us what were their conflicts about and how were they solved.

Hopefully this also explains why the quran is the only solution and not any other ideology that is not based on principles of the quran. It is because the quran is the only book that talks about real world and its real situations and how one should deal with them. Not only that but it discusses them right at the beginning of the book. In other words the quran tackles first thing first. This is why we should not be looking for things in this book which have nothing to do with reality of life. It is for this reason we must concentrate on our problems and seek help from the quran as to how to solve them. This is what the quran is sent for. To make us self reliant. This is why the quran tells us Allah only helps those who help themselves. We are told Allah does not change a people unless they work for the change they want. Allah only shows us the way but walking along the way is left up to us. If we do not travel to where we wish to go then we stay where we are, it is simple as that.

So people who do not try to understand the quran in its proper context cannot benefit from it nor can they benefit anyone else. The quran is useless for people who do not learn what it is for and how they can make use of it.

If the whole house is on fire, hiding in the house in a corner is not going to be of much help. This is why we must ensure world out there is in right frame of mind that it does not burn itself out. We are all part of it so we better wake up and work towards saving it, that is islam. The message of the quran is irrefutable by anyone no matter a muslim or a nonmuslim. It is firmly fixed as no other thing.

I think it is of vital importance that we first put forth overall picture of what islam means to us personally as per our own understanding of the quran in light of whatever we know so far, because that is the very key to understanding bits and pieces and their place within the wider picture. In any map that is not laid out fully one has difficulty in trying to figure out where one is and where one wants to go and how or why. This is why in any map that is in pages eg global, national, local or any picture that is in pieces eg jig saw puzzle there is a key or picture with it because without having some sort of idea as to how to figure things out is not at all easy. This is why rules must be sort that keep us right as we go along. Just taking a meaning of a word randomly having no idea of what the overall concept is we can end up sticking wrong meanings to words and there by end up with wrong concepts and things.

The other problem is due to conflict of interest between opposing parties there is a lot of misinformation and disinformation about. It is because each side wants to influence others and therefore anyone can drag things one way or the other so we need to have some fixed yardstick whereby we could judge why something is right or wrong. This is why some history of islam is important to know because it tells us what people have been doing to the book and how or why etc.

If islam was a religion then imperial forces regardless muslim or nonmuslim would have nothing to worry because religion is between god and man nothing to do with real world. In that case God would rule heaven and king the earth and that is why kings changed divine scriptural concepts and instead spread their own ideas that suited them with full backing of power of their kingdoms and anyone who opposed them was easily pushed aside. One only needs to see why karbala took place so soon after the prophet. There were plenty of religions before islam and after islam and are still around even today. People go in mundirs, gurudawaras, synagogues, churches, temples, altars etc. They all believe that there is ultimately only one source of all origin. They go through various ritualisms which they assume God told them through his chosen people eg prophets, saints and sages or wise men and even God incarnates. In all this God is given a useless description and role by man and man has given a useless rule to himself. I am saying useless because it has no real benefit for mankind. A man sits in a jungle busy with his counter repeating name of his God or whatever one believes in. Likewise man prays to his God. Likewise people go through hardships thinking they are pleasing their God. May be stay hungry or stand on one leg or even hang themselves upside down or whatever pleases them. Likewise they may visit places to please their God. In all this there is no real benefit for others and hardly any for oneself. Likewise people may give a part of their earnings to help the poor but even that is useless because even if some give to some people, others take it away from them. It is like going to well to fetch water in a container that has hole in the bottom.

All this is useless for mankind unless first thing is done first ie proper constitution and the rule of law. Unless people live by a rule that makes life good for them there is nothing in life to live for or to establish regardless about next world or this world. It is because instability factor is not something that we can ignore. It will be fatal for our existence and establishing anything at all. This is why Islam is not a religion but a DIVINE constitution and rule of law for mankind. One has to ask oneself what is constitution? It is simply a document containing things for a people as an organised community. it tells them goals and guidelines, rules and regulations, rights and responsibilities etc between people working together as a community ie administration and ordinary membership. This is why one knows for a fact that an interpretation of the quran is correct or not and to the point or not because it either makes sense and it works at least on the paper or it does not. If it works then we can work towards establish it in reality just like a computer program or any other plan we make about anything on a piece of paper in writing.

Before we manufacture a product it must be ensured at conceptual level that it will work eg we do not have to put a computer program to work on a computer to show that it works but even at development stage we can see that it will work and if odd thing comes up later that can be sorted out. Likewise before anyone could be asked to accept islam we need to be able to show them at least on paper how islam is better than religious rule as well as secular rule. To do this we ourselves must sit and think it out ourselves and then explain it to each other and then to wider world. Once we are able to do that people will come running to it not because we will force them with guns but that they will be able to rationalize it if we succeeded in explaining it to them sensibly. This is how the world would become a better place wherein people will be free to do what they like within set divine limits ie values and guidelines for the good of all without any negative discrimination.

Otherwise as things are going on in the name of religion and secularism, more and more people are getting more and more dispossessed and life is getting impossibly difficult and self destructive so man has no time for God. So many people convert from one religion to another not because any religion is true but because the hope is that new community they join will give them worldly help that they need or that they are unhappy with religions and they are trying them one by one and ultimately people are turning to agnosticism and atheism. All because people are not finding anywhere the supportive network called community the quran offers. This is what islamic state is all about ie people taking each other seriously and honouring human dignity of each other ie mutual respect and support. God does not need our help we need his help and that help is he gave us guidance and all we need to do is learn it properly and implement it properly and that is islam=peace.

It is for these like reason I thought I should contribute whatever I have learned in several decades of my life for the benefit of others. Some people may not like my ideas but I know they will come round because there is no any other way out of this trap that we are caught in.

This is why to me islam is a deen, not a dogmatic creed. DEEN=YARDSTICK for the world to live by if they wish to be free, just, fair, compassionate, friendly, progressive and prosperous therefore peaceful. Only deeni concept of islam can land us in good life in this world as well as in hereafter in the name of God. Otherwise we are doomed to failures again and again till we ourselves come to same conclusion.
 
Last edited:

1 ummah

Councller (250+ posts)
islam is deen,
isnt it beautiful ALLAH has defined, "Today I have perfected your deen for you and completed My blessing upon you and I am pleased with Islam as a deen for you." (5:3)
islam as our deen then all we need to do is submit our wills,wen one beleives in "la illaha il Allah,mohamadur rasool Allah" then his has no freedom of choice left!

it is not just mazhab(worship instinct)
Allah says ,do you believe in some part of it and reject some?
worshiping is part of islam to satisfy worship instinct ,Allah GAVE US

muslim cannot be secular
as said islam is submision of will,islam is a complete system,Allah revealed laws related to economic system,social system, foreign policy,punishments ...after our Prophet (s.a.w) got power in madina and implemented all these laws,

every action of muslim has to be linked with aqeeda,which makes all our actions ebadah,we dont eat harram,dont deal with interest(we do today,blessing of capitalistic democracy), be good to others,etc because Allah has ordered so!

today we dont follow islam as deen
as we are living without it as a system implemented from some 80 years,and in these years our knowledge and study regarding islam decreased and foreign ideologies were injected in!!
(so many modern/seculer muslims dont realize or understand wat islam is)

we need to revive islamic system
Allah has promised those of you who believe and do right actions that He will make them successors in the land, just as He made those before them successors; will firmly establish for them their religion with which He is pleased; and give them, in place of their fear, security. "They worship Me, not associating anything with Me." Any who do not believe after that, such people are rebels. (Surat an-Nur, 55)
hope the aya is enough to explain!
 

patriot

Minister (2k+ posts)
24_55.png

God has promised that those of you who will believe in the Divine laws and strengthen
human resources, He will make them rulers on earth, as He granted rule to the
previous nations. He will certainly establish for them the System of Life that He
has approved for them, and will replace their fear with peace and security. All
this because they obey Me alone. They ascribe no partner to Me. But all those
who, after this, deny these laws will drift out (of the community of living nations).
[28:6, 33:27. The belief mentioned in this verse does not pertain to any dogmas
and tenets, but to the realization that the entire Universe is operating under the
unchangeable Physical laws of One Supreme authority, thus providing the basis
for all Science and Technology
 
Last edited:

Unicorn

Banned
Secularism comes in two forms. Secular State and Secular Individual.

A Secular state is a state that sets the rules and Laws based on the issues and laws are made to address those issues. The religion does not play any part. The people of the state may follow any religion or the may use their religious based thinking to set rules that best address the issues of the time. Secularism is evolutionary. Secular state treats all its citizens equally. It keeps religion out of all its institutions.

This is the best form of governance where rules are set solely based on collective human wisdom.

A Secular Individual is the one who makes day to day decisions based on his own knowledge, knowledge may be acquired through any source academics, religious scriptures, observations, analysis and discussions or advise. A secular individual may choose to follow a religion or stays away from religion.

My two cents into this.