IPHONE 6 is an Atheist

[دوسرا_سوال]

Very good post! One thing I noticed that you mentioned "Iman Bil Ghaib" several times as something that is a very stupid and irrational concept. I completely respect your understanding but here is the way I look at it.

Iman Bil Ghaib does not mean that we are believing in something for which we have no logical or rational thoughts rather it simply means that we are drawing conclusions based on some rational evidences or proofs to believe in something which is not visible to you (Ghaib literally means something which is not visible).

For example nobody has personally seen the evolution of humans but based on some evidences, scientists believe that it occurred for billions of years (BTW I also believe in evolution but never saw it personally). This is similar to Iman Bil Ghaib that they are contemplating or suggesting or believing (depending on whom you are talking to) that Evolution did occur. Other very simple examples are: When we see grass or tress are green we conclude that water supply is enough in the area with some other important factors or when we visit a beach we expect to see some wild life of coastal areas not some animals which live in different habitats (we dont expect a camel on a coastal area). There are similar several common life examples.

The above examples suggest that this is quite common in our every day life that we always draw conclusions about some GHAIB (not visible) based on some evidences and nobody tells us that this is irrational or superstitious.

I completely agree with you that whatever we believe in should be logical and rational and this should be the only criterion to accept or rebut some ideas. However, we should not reject any idea just because it is century old. Again, your post is very nice and i am glad that we have such thinkers on this post. Peace!!

@GreatIK, welcome to the debate. I should be clear already that just because of your username, I hate you already - hehe :P




Couple of points:



1. RE: Nobody has personally seen evolutiont: Two examples, one a household pet dog domesticated from wolves and other the colourful roses (or other plants). This is what 'evolution' is, right here in front of our eyes. Only difference is that this is done by humans, hence called artificial, and not done by nature and therefore not called natural selection.

It is very easy to say things like, "oh if evolution is true then why don't I see it, therefore you must accept my god without seeing it too" - or "if evolution is true then why does a banana not evolve into a cat in three minutes right in front of my eyes" - or - "evolution of human from apes must be true for your ancestors not mine, he he ha ha" - and other uneducated things like that. The only harm you are doing is that you're keeping yourself (and probably your next generations) backward and uneducated by out rightly denying scientific facts.

Forget about everything, just ask a doctor about bacterial resistance to antibiotics and read more about it then, or read more here. It's not the fault of facts that they have not come slapped themselves in your face to make you aware of them :P - do some research my friend!




2: RE: Iman Bil Ghaib does not mean that we are believing in something for which we have no logical or rational thoughts rather it simply means that we are drawing conclusions based on some rational evidences or proofs to believe in something which is not visible to you

Single most twisted statement I've heard, and said so easily. My friend, iman-bil-ghaib only and only means believing in something without proof and without any reason or rhyme. That's the whole 'hook' of religion because when you can believe based on iman-bil-ghaib, then you'd do anything in the name of religion.

That's why it's not called iman-bil-mantaq, or iman-bil-uzar.

 

[ZenoInTheZoo]

:)

Look what have you done now ! I think two last replies from Doosra_Sawal should be enough for you, but I guess, this urge dragging this "discussion" further, you need some more fuel for going on, here is something for you. By the way I must admit that you can write good comedy as well, a suggestion to you, why don't you start writing novels ? May get some extra money on the side ? What you say ?

"The Christian God is defined as a personal being who knows everything. According to Christians, personal beings have free will.

In order to have free will, you must have more than one option, each of which is avoidable. This means that before you make a choice, there must be a state of uncertainty during a period of potential: you cannot know the future. Even if you think you can predict your decision, if you claim to have free will, you must admit the potential (if not the desire) to change your mind before the decision is final.

A being who knows everything can have no "state of uncertainty." It knows its choices in advance. This means that it has no potential to avoid its choices, and therefore lacks free will. Since a being that lacks free will is not a personal being, a personal being who knows everything cannot exist.

Therefore, the Christian God does not exist." by Dan Barker

Look who has said this: a Barker! .......... :lol:

For me this quote is suffering from argumentative circularity....... nothing more than a sort of intellectual masturbation.......

..... and is it kind of political or some other propaganda where you come every not and then to give some moral support to Sawal and pat his back? I don't think he asked for your support and needs any. He is quite self-sufficient, rather you are spoiling his case with these childish interjections.

You are wasting your time and effort, Chan Mahi!

Here is what I told you before in post 106 above: "I wont start that dialogue with you until you apologize for all the name calling so far and learn some manners of decent debate."

So, if you have that uncontrollable urge, show some grace, accept that you have been unbecoming in your expression, apologize and improve your manners that is worthy of this kind of dialogue........ this is not Chanddoo-khana or kids' play where everything would pass.......you need to qualify for the dialogue

 

[RustamShah]

Look who has said this: a Barker! .......... :lol:

I thought you would "understand" him better !! :P

For me this quote is suffering from argumentative circularity....... nothing more than a sort of intellectual masturbation......

See I knew it, you would be the best person to understand "Barker" !

..... and is it kind of political or some other propaganda where you come every not and then to give some moral support to Sawal and pat his back? I don't think he asked for your support and needs any. He is quite self-sufficient, rather you are spoiling his case with these childish interjections

I will support anyone I like and personally I don't see any reason why should I not support his charity work for people like you ? He is doing a good job and the effects I can see on you are pretty visible. I still though personally feel sorry for you as well.

Here is what I told you before in post 106 above: "I wont start that dialogue with you until you apologize for all the name calling so far and learn some manners of decent debate."

We say in Urdu like, Yaar maza nahi aaya (thumbsdown)your plead was not supported by any passion, you need to convince me that you are committed to get this apology, though once again, I like the way you are doing it, get into it, you may get something in the end, but better luck next time :)

So, if you have that uncontrollable urge, show some grace, accept that you have been unbecoming in your expression, apologize and improve your manners that is worthy of this kind of dialogue........ this is not Chanddoo-khana or kids' play where everything would pass.......you need to qualify for the dialogue

(yapping) Like I said above, I have read your plead and I am some what concern about them, I am devoting a huge chunk of my energies, to resolve this issue for you, as you can understand, we are all living in a real world, have multiple issues to deal, however, I have directed one of my personal assist. to deal specifically with you, rest assure, we are giving very serious consideration on your proposal ! [hilar]

 

[ZenoInTheZoo]

I thought you would "understand" him better !! :P



See I knew it, you would be the best person to understand "Barker" !



I will support anyone I like and personally I don't see any reason why should I not support his charity work for people like you ? He is doing a good job and the effects I can see on you are pretty visible. I still though personally feel sorry for you as well.



We say in Urdu like, Yaar maza nahi aaya (thumbsdown)your plead was not supported by any passion, you need to convince me that you are committed to get this apology, though once again, I like the way you are doing it, get into it, you may get something in the end, but better luck next time :)



(yapping) Like I said above, I have read your plead and I am some what concern about them, I am devoting a huge chunk of my energies, to resolve this issue for you, as you can understand, we are all living in a real world, have multiple issues to deal, however, I have directed one of my personal assist. to deal specifically with you, rest assure, we are giving very serious consideration on your proposal ! [hilar]

Never occurred to me that you would become a victim of your precious little wisdom.........so soon!

Isn't it this what you wrote a few hours ago: "you just need some attention time to time, that's all" (Ref post#99)?

Despite my clear message to you in many posts above, you keep on clamoring for attention. Why??

 

[RustamShah]

Never occurred to me that you would become a victim of your precious little wisdom.........so soon!

Isn't it this what you wrote a few hours ago: "you just need some attention time to time, that's all" (Ref post#99)?

Despite my clear message to you in many posts above, you keep on clamoring for attention. Why??

Dude I think I am getting on your nerves now, few hours ago ? Lol.. great, now you have lost sense of time as well, and I know for your mental illness there is no cure, so I am doing some charity work, you know, alm for you, may your god give you some peace :)

 

[GreatIK]

As you mentioned yourself, Evolution for example has some evidences, like fossil record, study of genealogy and other references point towards a evolution which took place for billions of years, I am just curious if you can give me some evidences of this other Ghaaib you believe in ? I mean if you ask Scientists they will show you their evidences, what you have to show them ?

Peace

Good question Rustam.

The evidence of GHAIB (creator) is always the creations (MOJOOD). Like if we see a beautiful home in wilderness we immediately think of an architect or a planner or a builder who built the house. In this case the House itself is the evidence of the Architect. PEACE!!

 

[GreatIK]

Couple of points:



1. RE: Nobody has personally seen evolutiont: Two examples, one a household pet dog domesticated from wolves and other the colourful roses (or other plants). This is what 'evolution' is, right here in front of our eyes. Only difference is that this is done by humans, hence called artificial, and not done by nature and therefore not called natural selection.

It is very easy to say things like, "oh if evolution is true then why don't I see it, therefore you must accept my god without seeing it too" - or "if evolution is true then why does a banana not evolve into a cat in three minutes right in front of my eyes" - or - "evolution of human from apes must be true for your ancestors not mine, he he ha ha" - and other uneducated things like that. The only harm you are doing is that you're keeping yourself (and probably your next generations) backward and uneducated by out rightly denying scientific facts.

Forget about everything, just ask a doctor about bacterial resistance to antibiotics and read more about it then, or read more here. It's not the fault of facts that they have not come slapped themselves in your face to make you aware of them :P - do some research my friend!




2: RE: Iman Bil Ghaib does not mean that we are believing in something for which we have no logical or rational thoughts rather it simply means that we are drawing conclusions based on some rational evidences or proofs to believe in something which is not visible to you

Single most twisted statement I've heard, and said so easily. My friend, iman-bil-ghaib only and only means believing in something without proof and without any reason or rhyme. That's the whole 'hook' of religion because when you can believe based on iman-bil-ghaib, then you'd do anything in the name of religion.

That's why it's not called iman-bil-mantaq, or iman-bil-uzar.[/QUOTE]



Doosra Sawal: No matter how much you hate me I would keep loving you(serious)

Respectfully I would say that I never said that evolution concept is baseless or without any evidence (in fact I said that even I believe in that) I just said that no one has seen it happening. So by the same token, GHAIB also has evidence but no one has seen it. Like I replied to RUSTAM in another post that a beautiful house in wilderness is visible so it is an evidence but we never saw an architect or a builder building it. it means that very act of building is invisible (Ghaib) and the Architect is not visible (GHAIB). So in that situation we do not say that concluding that an Architect made this house is a foolish idea since he is GHAIB.

Please note the evidence is not GHAIB in evolution or believing in a Creator - the only thing which is GHAIB in both cases is the Causator. Now it is up to an individual to define the Causator however they want to define. Some call it Natural Selection which still requires a subject per every account of science or some call it God (a subject). So my point is this that you may be right in believing in Natural Selection but your argument was not convincing that Iman Bil Ghaib is an irrational concept. PEACE again and thanks for being nice so far!