Hi Everyone!

seventytwo

Citizen

images



Going to cut to the point here, and forgive me if you get 100 people per week trying to say what I am about to say -

I am an American who is not religious, but I would consider myself fairly informed and educated compared to the rest of the people here in the USA. I ended up on this site because I wanted to see some of the other perspectives in the world since all of this youtube video stuff has been going on over the last week. The problem I keep seeing is that neither side really understands the other side. I am talking mainly about the general populations, not the governments or the leaders. Regular people simply don't have time to figure out all the nuances of another culture while trying to work and/or go to school and take care of a family. So people on both sides of the world are left with misrepresentations of the "other people". I wanted to try to open that up a little bit...

Perhaps there is a better place to do this than the Introductions Forum, but I wanted to maybe try to answer some questions anyone had about the US or the government here, or the culture over here or whatever. And, through that, I was hoping to gain some of my own insight into how people in Pakistan (and Muslims in general) view the world and my country.

I will answer questions about myself and my own beliefs too, if that's what gets asked. Basically, I was hoping to do kind of an AMA (Ask Me Anything), as an American, non-religious 24 year-old liberal.

Again, I apologize if you guys get people coming in here all the time trying to do this. I'll delete the thread if that's the case. I just wanted to open up a clean, honest dialogue and maybe we could all learn some things about each other?

:)
 
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Saboo

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Welcome on the forum seventytwo!
Though I dont doubt your good intentions but I have a feeling that nothing
positive would come out of it>
 

ustadjejanab

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
well. let me start from here.
if Talibans are terrorists (which majority of Pakistanis including me believe they are), why America as a Country is not terrorist after killing millions of people in Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan etc. as [h=1]What's good for the goose is good for the gander[/h]
 

seventytwo

Citizen
Hi MK Malik -

Thanks for welcoming me here. I am truly not looking to debate, only answer questions. Debate on the internet is pretty pointless. I really just want to try to open up a place where everyone can learn a little something about each other. We are all human beings, right? We all have a lot in common, I'm sure!

Really, I will be an neutral and open and honest as possible. Is there a better place to do this than the Intro Forums maybe?
 

SARKARMAAFKR

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
We really appreciate this step if it is for good intentions but let me tell you some thing we have thousands of thousands questions about your country policy,the double standards towards muslim world,about your war after war policy,your one sided policy towards Israel,your stupid policy of drone attacks in other countries,policy of freedom of speech used to humiliate others religions and their belief,trying to act as a police of the world and lots more which i will leave for my other friends but it will be very difficult for you to answer these questions as you are not the policy maker,infact your politicians some time dont know what they are doing as everything comes from pentagon,anyway Good luck
 

Unicorn

Banned
@seventytwo , good that you are here. I have been defending US on this forum until now along with a handful of Pakistanis who are considered Indian/CIA/Mosaad agents. I will accept accept your thanks for defending America. You are a young person probably will not be able to answer all their questions I will try to help you when I can. Good luck and welcome to the forum its a fun place.

As long as you don't bad mouth India you and I will get along fine.:biggthumpup::biggthumpup::biggthumpup:
 

janbazali

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
We strongly believe that the West (specially US) is up against the muslim world, there is no solid proof that Osama did 9/11 but this is fact that US and allies killed millions in Afghanistan and Iraq (majority innocent civilians), so US is simply million times more terrorist than anyone else. In this perspective US is the enemy No. 1 of the muslim world

millions of the Muslims are ready to give their lives for Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and for Quran, so you can imagine the intensity and US knows that, the reason why they exploit this thing to get their desire picture of the Muslim world.

When we say US, it means the ruling elite of US specially the Zionist Jews group in US think tank..
 

SMAAS

Senator (1k+ posts)
WELCOME,

these are some very small points to start the discussion larger and important points I will raise later on.

The main problem are extremists on both side of our religion Christianity and Islam e.g. we have extremest called Taliban who are condiderd as terrorist by US but on other hand people who keep same mindset in US establishment and general population are called right wing and if they do anything similar to Muslim terrorist then they are called Insane or person with mental problem. e.g. Bush war crimes and white supremacist terrorist activity in Sikh temple. so please this double standard has have made american law enforcement doubt full.

Second please check out the opinions of your two main parties repulicans and deomcrates on issue of in favour of or against Muslims and you will be shocked what they think about Muslim all over over the world including Americans Muslim. so first they need take out discrimination factor out to sort out the problems of other countries they seems to worry about other countries and own home is ful of racist and Christians extremist.

Media needs a right direction, i believe in free media and we have better free media then US in Pakistan. In your part of the world media clearly takes sides even the taking side clearly seems wrong e.g. FOX news i know liberals don't listen to them and mostly make fun of them but have you ever noticed the amount of people listen to glen beck and bill O realy nonsense. they work as proxy to change stuff and change general public opinions even they are wrong so i think 99 percent of Americans needs to come out and take the **** of them because they took u into wars because of their propaganda, they are responsible for strong unlawful alliance with Israhell even Americans knows israhell is nothing and u cant take any beneficent from them its like throwing money in never ending well. I'm saying media on right direction because before we Muslims became ur enemy ur media and right wingers made the situation which we knows as cold war which has led all these Taliban and al-Qaeda into exitense in 80s.

Law to respect religious personalities its doesnt mean that no critism, critism is allowed for discussion but making films with nasty character doesnt seems to be for debating purpose. After US destroying whole world by ileagal wars in last ten years US talking about peace protest. common sense film-makers are extremist, there is a difference between criticising for debate and provoking propaganda for violence. it seems it was propaganda to provoke violence. there are thousands of books criticise Islam and prophet's but no one Muslim take that offensive because there are there for debate even in Muslim countries libraries e.g. Christopher hitchkens books. debate is always on the best personality if you want to hear for debcate purpose are Ahmed Dedaat and Zakir Naik. they good Muslims with intelligent skills to debate.

US need a revolution in their political system because US population is divided very badly on every issue because brainwashing of red necks by media giants as i already said FOX and its parenting company. have you ever notices how fatal it is when Republicans terrorist comes into power there is always destruction. e.g. last government was made by republicans and look what happened two wars and millions of people died so you guys needs to come out on roads and destroy these corporations who are running your country and effecting us as well because your policies only made after agreement with large coporations without them your governemnt can't make any policies.e.g. Africa vs Middles east and where US is spending more and for what.

Lobbying had caused several problems which led us Pakistanis into this trouble where we now have enemy called Taliban because in 80s and still now sorry to say particular group has very much influenced ur lobbying system because of money and they are called Zionist not Jews because Jews are normal. look at MITT Romney childish behaviour he doesn't care about US public but more for Israelis.

hopefully discussion will continue on these important issues
 
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SMAAS

Senator (1k+ posts)
@seventytwo , good that you are here. I have been defending US on this forum until now along with a handful of Pakistanis who are considered Indian/CIA/Mosaad agents. I will accept accept your thanks for defending America. You are a young person probably will not be able to answer all their questions I will try to help you when I can. Good luck and welcome to the forum its a fun place.

As long as you don't bad mouth India you and I will get along fine.:biggthumpup::biggthumpup::biggthumpup:

Defending America for what man i think u type without using any power from brain. u r also terrorist extremist because u defend not because of right or wrong u defend based on nationality, and race. u r Indian Glen Beck which needs to get some Humping from John Stewart. i can't believe Indians are so racist and u have childish mind set and i think u r not more 11 years old. i think u have some kind of syndrome u might look big but ur brain might not work according to ur physic.
 

seventytwo

Citizen
ustadjejanab -

That's a good question. It's a really big question! But I will try my best to answer it. I think you are touching upon a bit of a double-standard here. If I understand you correctly, you want to know why America's actions are not considered terrorism. You mentioned a few major conflicts, and I can try to go through each one and describe the American reasoning behind each of them as best I can. I'll let you know, too, when I am giving my own opinion as opposed to explaining what general "America" thinks...

Hiroshima/Nagasaki - The atomic bombings of Japan certainly killed and injured a lot of people. Let me explain the reasoning behind dropping those bombs though. As the US fought it's way towards Japan in the Pacific Ocean, we had to go from island to island pushing out the Japanese. They put up an incredible resistance! They fought to the death in most cases and would rarely surrender. A lot of Americans were killed because of their resistance. It became apparent that an invasion of the Japanese main islands would be very deadly. I think they were estimating that 1 million Americans would die, and several million Japanese would die in the invasion. So, because we had this new technology, we decided to try to bomb those cities (and we told Japan we had a bunch of atom bombs, when we really only had 3 or so) to scare Japan into surrendering. It took two bombs before they did, and WWII was over. A lot of people here in America think the atomic bombings were very very horrible and many don't understand that if we hadn't bombed them, many many more people would have died in the invasion.

Vietnam - So the Vietnam war was a result of the Cold War with Russia. Because Russia and the US didn't want to fight directly (there would have been nukes flying everywhere, and it would have been really bad for everyone on Earth, not just the US and Russia), we fought a bunch of "proxy wars". These were wars like the Korean War and Vietnam. The US even aided the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan so they would fight the Russians in the 80s. The Vietnam war was HUGELY unpopular in the US. There were protests all over the country for years. However, there was some political philosophy at the time which was trying to contain the spread of communism. I believe it was called "Containment" or something like that. Basically, the top people in the US thought that they needed to prevent Russia from spreading its influence. So, whenever a country was starting to become communist, we would try to aid the pro-democracy side of things. Today, the Vietnam war is considered a pretty bad move on our part, and was basically a political and military blunder. A lot of people compare the Iraq war to the Vietnam war, in that we shouldn't have gotten involved in the first place, it killed a lot of people, it wasted a lot of money, and it made a bunch of people angry with us. Which brings me to....

Iraq - Wow, where to start on this one... After 9/11, America was really scared. We didn't know what was going on. We didn't really understand why these people in the middle east were so mad at us (I'm talking about the average person here). The people in power at the time ended up using this fear to push their ideas about how to change the middle east. They strongly believed that replacing Saddam Hussein with a democratic nation would allow freedom and democracy to spread through the middle east. So, they used the fear of 9/11 to point at Hussein and say, "Hey! He has weapons of mass destruction! He helps terrorists!". Of course, because everyone in the US was so shaken up my 9/11, there was wide support for it. Well, it turns out, there were never any weapons of mass destruction, and there really wasn't any terrorist threat coming from Iraq. The American people were basically lied to in order to invade Iraq (our Congress must all agree to go to war). In my opinion, and many many others in the US, Iraq was a HUGE mistake. It was wrong for us to invade, and we made a big mess of things over there, and also got ourselves into a bunch of debt.

Afghanistan - This is the place that America should have invaded instead of Iraq. We should have spent our time and energy here. People in the US still support the efforts in Afghanistan, but we are all very weary of the wars. The wars have cost us a lot of money and have hurt our economy (with a combination of other things like the housing market crash and tax cuts during wartime), not to mention all the people killed and injured. I don't think America has anything against the Taliban specifically, but because they allow groups like al-Qaeda to grow and flourish, we are very suspicious of them. Mostly, we just want to get the people responsible for the "terrorism". If the Taliban helps them or is involved with that, I suppose America will go after them too. Right now, the main feeling in the US is that we all just want the wars to be over, and we want our troops back home.


Sorry this is so long!! Anyway, I think this is the problem - There is this idea in the US that we are always trying to do the right thing. The problem with that is, of course, that sometimes what we think is good, other people don't want, or don't like. So, we try to get involved when we think we need to in order to allow people to be free (no body like a dictator, right?). Again, the problem here, is that it tends to start wars where it might not have been necessary - like Vietnam, or Iraq. "Terrorism" is defined as violence that is designed to incite fear, but its meaning has changed over the last few years in this country. Terrorism, in the eyes of the US, is more like small groups of people who hate freedom and use violent actions to push that agenda (not my opinion, but just the general view of terrorism here). So, America sees itself as this great defender of freedom and equality, and so we dont see our own actions as terrorism. I am sure that in the eyes of other people around the world, our actions are un-wanted, and when we try to push our beliefs of freedom on people, they get mad. Of course, when they get mad, it is called "terrorism".

It's not a fair thing, and it IS a double-standard in many cases. There is a growing view in the US, however, that perhaps we all need to be more thoughtful towards other countries, and their cultures and beliefs.

I did my best to answer your question! Hopefully that gives you a little bit better picture of things! I am not saying that I agree or disagree with any of the "American opinions" I wrote about. I am just trying to explain how things are.
 

seventytwo

Citizen
Hi SARKARMAAFKR -

Thanks! I am willing to try to answer everything I can! You are right... I am only one man, and I do not speak for all Americans. I also do not speak for those in the government. There are many, many, many opinions and beliefs in this country, and the government, in theory, tries to act on behalf of those many voices. It is certainly not perfect, and the government doesn't always do what the people want, either. But, when they don't, we get to kick them out!

But yeah, I am not a policymaker, and I am only a single person out of ~300 million voices. However, I will do my best to try to describe how people think over here, what the different opinions are, and explain any of my own view points if asked.

Thanks!!
 

nonamina

Minister (2k+ posts)
dear thread starter.... i have read your thread a couple of times and i honestly believe that you are not American. i live in the US and i know the slangs and how an Americans would represent his/her views... please let me know which state you are in? then i will be able to judge your credibility, thanks
 
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seventytwo

Citizen
We strongly believe that the West (specially US) is up against the muslim world, there is no solid proof that Osama did 9/11 but this is fact that US and allies killed millions in Afghanistan and Iraq (majority innocent civilians), so US is simply million times more terrorist than anyone else. In this perspective US is the enemy No. 1 of the muslim world

millions of the Muslims are ready to give their lives for Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and for Quran, so you can imagine the intensity and US knows that, the reason why they exploit this thing to get their desire picture of the Muslim world.

When we say US, it means the ruling elite of US specially the Zionist Jews group in US think tank..


Oops, should have been using the quotes in my first two posts! Sorry about that...

Anyway, let me get to your comments/questions.

As far as my knowledge goes, bin Laden took credit for organizing the 9/11 in one of his videos, and that's why the US went after him in Afghanistan. I don't want to get into a debate though, but in America, it is perceived as a fact that bin Laden organized the 9/11 attacks. Regardless, I understand why you see America as having done worse things in the middle east than the terrorists have done to US. You are right - many more muslims have died than Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan. The American people believe now that Iraq was a mistake. The leaders at the time used some of the fear from 9/11 to gather support to invade Iraq. That proved to be a horrible decision that left many Iraqis dead (civilian and military) as well as many Americans dead. It also helped in making the economic conditions in the US bad. Afghanistan is still seen as a "worthy" war because we were going after the people who were responsible for 9/11. However, many here are tired of the wars and just want our friends and family to come back home.

There really isn't a "ruling party" here in the US. Because of capitalism, there is an "upper class", which is the wealthy people. There is the "middle class", which is the majority of people in the US , who are all the people who have good lives, but arent rich or poor. Then there is the "lower class", which are the people who are struggling to pay for food and might not have a place to live. Because of the way our election system works, it is usually the people who have more money (upper class and sometimes middle class) who are able to get into politics. It is very complicated politics, but the people involved in government are all kinds of people. There really isn't one group that controls power here. The most influential group by far are the Christians, but even they don't have a majority (and there are all kinds of different opinions from different Christian groups). There are many many other groups that all are able to voice their opinions too!

To be honest, I don't really understand the US/Israel connection very well. I don't feel like I have enough knowledge on that topic to comment! Sorry! But I can say that there isn't a "ruling elite" or any kind of Zionist Jew think-tank groups that are running the country.

Thanks for your comments!! :)
 

seventytwo

Citizen
@72 .. tell me how many Dron's fly over Pakistan on a given day? and why?


I don't know how many. I'm not sure why, either. The public doesn't get to know the details of those operations because of security worries. But we are told that the drones are hunting down insurgents (terrorists) that are operating in the mountains along the Pakistan/Afghanistan border.
 

seventytwo

Citizen
dear thread starter.... i have read your thread a couple of times and i honestly believe that you are not American. i live in the US and i know the slangs and how an Americans would represent his/her views... please let me know which state you are in? then i will be able to judge your credibility, thanks

Hi -

Definitely American. Born and raised here! I am trying to write formally because I assume English is not the first language of some people on the forum. Maybe I am wrong? I am from Colorado. Where are you from? I see your location says "USA".
 

Star Gazer

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Welcome to you 72.
This is a very open forum and you can discuss anything and everything, we try to maintain politeness.
you will be surprised by the knowledge and understanding of the geopolitical issues of the members on this forum.
 

Star Gazer

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
@seventytwo , good that you are here. I have been defending US on this forum until now along with a handful of Pakistanis who are considered Indian/CIA/Mosaad agents. I will accept accept your thanks for defending America. You are a young person probably will not be able to answer all their questions I will try to help you when I can. Good luck and welcome to the forum its a fun place.

As long as you don't bad mouth India you and I will get along fine.:biggthumpup::biggthumpup::biggthumpup:

Chaaploosi!
 

Amal

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
We strongly believe that the West (specially US) is up against the muslim world, there is no solid proof that Osama did 9/11 but this is fact that US and allies killed millions in Afghanistan and Iraq (majority innocent civilians), so US is simply million times more terrorist than anyone else. In this perspective US is the enemy No. 1 of the muslim world

millions of the Muslims are ready to give their lives for Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and for Quran, so you can imagine the intensity and US knows that, the reason why they exploit this thing to get their desire picture of the Muslim world.

When we say US, it means the ruling elite of US specially the Zionist Jews group in US think tank..
america in mirror , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7WGMGHNHfw&feature=related
 

seventytwo

Citizen
The main problem are extremists on both side of our religion Christianity and Islam e.g. we have extremest called Taliban who are condiderd as terrorist by US but on other hand people who keep same mindset in US establishment and general population are called right wing and if they do anything similar to Muslim terrorist then they are called Insane or person with mental problem. e.g. Bush war crimes and white supremacist terrorist activity in Sikh temple. so please this double standard has have made american law enforcement doubt full.

I agree that extremists are the problem on both sides! There are extremists in every religion, and in every country. There is always someone who is a little bit insane, no matter what you believe in, or where you are from! A few things... The white supremacist shooting in the Sikh temple was horrible. I believe the government deemed that "domestic terrorism", actually. At the very least, all the news programs were calling it "domestic terrorism". There are also other cases in the US, were a US citizen has committed terrorism. The Oklahoma City bombing is a good example. Another are bombings of abortion clinics and killings of doctors who perform abortions - performed by Christian extremists. The acts of violence are all horrible, but when the attack is against Americans for being Americans, that is what is typically seen as "terrorism", even though these other examples should also be considered terrorism too. You are right, there is some double-standard going on, but I think there are many in the US who are aware of that, and are trying to change their perceptions of what "terrorism" is.

Second please check out the opinions of your two main parties repulicans and deomcrates on issue of in favour of or against Muslims and you will be shocked what they think about Muslim all over over the world including Americans Muslim. so first they need take out discrimination factor out to sort out the problems of other countries they seems to worry about other countries and own home is ful of racist and Christians extremist.

Yeah, the parties say a lot of things. The Republicans mainly try to get the Christian votes, so they sometimes say things that appeal to Christian extremists. Of course, most Christians are very nice, normal people, but sometimes the extremist Christians make the normal Christians look bad in this country too. Anyway, when the politicians say things that are racist or bigoted against Muslims, it is usually to try to get the crazy people to vote for them. The politicians will usually not actually DO the racist things they talk about. It's just to try to win favor with some of the extremists. Most Americans are very against racism and do not like any of that kind of talk.

Media needs a right direction, i believe in free media and we have better free media then US in Pakistan. In your part of the world media clearly takes sides even the taking side clearly seems wrong e.g. FOX news i know liberals don't listen to them and mostly make fun of them but have you ever noticed the amount of people listen to glen beck and bill O realy nonsense. they work as proxy to change stuff and change general public opinions even they are wrong so i think 99 percent of Americans needs to come out and take the **** of them because they took u into wars because of their propaganda, they are responsible for strong unlawful alliance with Israhell even Americans knows israhell is nothing and u cant take any beneficent from them its like throwing money in never ending well. I'm saying media on right direction because before we Muslims became ur enemy ur media and right wingers made the situation which we knows as cold war which has led all these Taliban and al-Qaeda into exitense in 80s.

I agree here. As far as I understand, this has been a pretty recent (last 20 years) development in American Journalism. It is definitely a problem here. Most Americans are aware of this, and many are trying to stop the polarizing of the media. Especially with the internet, there is a lot of change happening with the media right now. I will say that in my opinion, the republicans (the right) and Fox News/Glenn Beck/Bill O'Riley have been far more invested in swaying public opinion over the last decade than the democrats (the left). People here in the US have definitely become aware of it, and there has been a lot of push back in the last few years against it.

Law to respect religious personalities its doesnt mean that no critism, critism is allowed for discussion but making films with nasty character doesnt seems to be for debating purpose. After US destroying whole world by ileagal wars in last ten years US talking about peace protest. common sense film-makers are extremist, there is a difference between criticising for debate and provoking propaganda for violence. it seems it was propaganda to provoke violence. there are thousands of books criticise Islam and prophet's but no one Muslim take that offensive because there are there for debate even in Muslim countries libraries e.g. Christopher hitchkens books. debate is always on the best personality if you want to hear for debcate purpose are Ahmed Dedaat and Zakir Naik. they good Muslims with intelligent skills to debate.

The guy who made this movie is an extremist. Very very few people in the US share his ideas or share his views. Almost everyone is very respectful of other cultures and religions, and that includes Muslims/Islam! There will always be those few people who say stupid things and make stupid movies. However, it is a very strong American belief that anyone be able to say what they want, even if it is stupid, or racist, or mean. The idea here, is that as long as the words don't lead to physical harm to others (a common example would be yelling "FIRE!!!" in a crowded building, which leads to people getting trampled and pushed trying to get out), then there is no problem with it. So, while this movie is certainly insulting and rude, it is allowed, and people in the US just roll their eyes and lose respect for the guy who made the movie. That pastor from Florida who burned a Quran is the same - he's an extremist insane person, but he can say/do what he wants as long as it doesn't infringe upon other people's freedoms. The price those two pay here is that they are labelled as extremists, and no body takes them seriously. No body likes them anymore, and they lose their respect. But you are right, an intelligent discussion would be better!

US need a revolution in their political system because US population is divided very badly on every issue because brainwashing of red necks by media giants as i already said FOX and its parenting company. have you ever notices how fatal it is when Republicans terrorist comes into power there is always destruction. e.g. last government was made by republicans and look what happened two wars and millions of people died so you guys needs to come out on roads and destroy these corporations who are running your country and effecting us as well because your policies only made after agreement with large coporations without them your governemnt can't make any policies.e.g. Africa vs Middles east and where US is spending more and for what.

I agree here, personally. What the US needs is more education! We need to get out there and meet more people from other countries and learn more languages so that we realize that other people in the world are just like us! We all just want to live good lives with people we love! Nobody wants hate and wars and terrorism! Nobody wants that, but I think a lot of the more uneducated "red-necks" just don't know enough about the rest of the world. There is also a lot of fear in that part of the country that Muslims are going to somehow destroy America and turn America into a country with Sharia law. Of course, that's silly, but there are people who believe that. And again, you're right - some of the right-wing media sources make the situation worse when they promote fear. Personally, I think the right-wing media in this country is a huge problem... I am really hoping that if Obama wins the election in November, that the republicans will abandon their propaganda strategy and become more moderate. We shall see....

Lobbying had caused several problems which led us Pakistanis into this trouble where we now have enemy called Taliban because in 80s and still now sorry to say particular group has very much influenced ur lobbying system because of money and they are called Zionist not Jews because Jews are normal. look at MITT Romney childish behaviour he doesn't care about US public but more for Israelis.


I do not know too much about the "zionist lobby" here in the US. I don't know too much about the US/Israel relationship, and why we defend them so fervently. I know that there seems to be a general agreement in this country that Israel should be able to exist. But, as far as I know (and like I said, I am not well-verse on this topic, just explaining what I see), the support for Israel is defensive in nature. In other words, I don't any ideas that Israel should expand or anything like that, just that it should have a right to exist. This is just what I observe. The topic of Israel is not a big one over here in the US.


Another long post! Hopefully this answered your comments/questions! Again, I am not trying to debate things here - just trying to answer questions and explain stuff! (bigsmile)
 

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