Ajmair Sharif Dargah, is it for this purpose?

[Veila Mast]

There are two unequivocal texts from the Qur'an which deny the possibility of the dead in their graves possessing the faculty of hearing. Allah, the Blessed and Exalted, states :

[Surah an-Naml 27:80]

إِنَّكَ لَا تُسْمِعُ الْمَوْتَىٰ وَلَا تُسْمِعُ الصُّمَّ الدُّعَاءَ إِذَا وَلَّوْا مُدْبِرِينَ

Yusuf Ali 80: Truly thou canst not cause the dead to listen, nor canst thou cause the deaf to hear the call, (especially) when they turn back in retreat.
​

البتہ تو مردوں کو نہیں سنا سکتا اور نہ بہروں کو اپنی پکارسنا سکتا ہے جب وہ پیٹھ پھیر کر لوٹیں
​

[Surah Fatir 35:22]

وَمَا يَسْتَوِي الْأَحْيَاءُ وَلَا الْأَمْوَاتُ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُسْمِعُ مَن يَشَاءُ ۖ وَمَا أَنتَ بِمُسْمِعٍ مَّن فِي الْقُبُورِ
​

Yusuf Ali 22: Nor are alike those that are living and those that are dead. Allah can make any that He wills to hear; but thou canst not make those to hear who are (buried) in graves.

اور زندے اور مردے برابر نہیں ہیں بے شک الله سناتا ہے جسے چاہے اور آپ انہیں سنانے والے نہیں جو قبروں میں ہیں
​

Surah Namal: Quoted Ayat 80 AND NEXT AYAT:

اِنَّکَ لَا تُسْمِعُ الْمَوْتٰی وَلَا تُسْمِعُ الصُّمَّ الدُّعَآءَ اِذَا وَلَّوْا مُدْبِرِیۡنَ ﴿۸۰﴾
بیشک تمہارے سنائے نہیں سنتے مردے (ف۱۳۳) اور نہ تمہارے سنائے بہرے پکار سنیں جب پھریں پیٹھ دے کر (ف۱۳۴)


وَمَاۤ اَنۡتَ بِہٰدِی الْعُمْیِ عَنۡ ضَلٰلَتِہِمْ ؕ اِنۡ تُسْمِعُ اِلَّا مَنۡ یُّؤْمِنُ بِاٰیٰتِنَا فَہُمۡ مُّسْلِمُوۡنَ ﴿۸۱﴾
اور اندھوں کو (ف۱۳۵)ان کی گمراہی سے تم ہدایت کرنے والے نہیں تمہارے سنائے تو وہی سنتے ہیں جو ہماری آیتوں پر ایمان لاتے ہیں (ف۱۳۶) اور وہ مسلمان ہیں

Brief Explain:



مُردوں سے مراد یہاں کُفّار ہیں جن کے دل مُردہ ہیں چنانچہ اسی آیت میں ان کے مقابل اہلِ ایمان کا ذکر فرمایا ۔ '' اِنْ تُسْمِعُ اِلاَّ مَنْ یُّؤْمِنُ بِاٰیٰتِنَا '' جو لوگ اس آیت سے مُردوں کے نہ سننے پر استدلال کرتے ہیں ان کا استدلال غلط ہے چونکہ یہاں مُردہ کُفّار کو فرمایا گیا اور ان سے بھی مطلقاً ہر کلام کے سننے کی نفی مراد نہیں ہے بلکہ پند و موعِظت اور کلامِ ہدایت کے بسمعِ قبول سننے کی نفی ہے اور مراد یہ ہے کہ کافِر مُردہ دل ہیں کہ نصیحت سے منتفع نہیں ہوتے ۔ اس آیت کے معنی یہ بتانا کہ مردے نہیں سنتے بالکل غلط ہے صحیح احادیث سے مُردوں کا سُننا ثابت ہے ۔
(ف134)
معنٰی یہ ہیں کہ کُفّار غایت اعراض و روگردانی سے مُردے اور بہرے کے مثل ہو گئے ہیں کہ انہیں پکارنا اور حق کی دعوت دینا کسی طرح نافع نہیں ہوتا ۔

 

[Veila Mast]

Book of Asking apostates and those who separate themselves in obstinate rebellion to repent and fighting them

V. Killing Kharijites and heretics* after proof is established against them
The words of Allah Almighty, "Allah would never misguide a people after guiding them until He had made it clear to them how to have taqwa." (9:115)
Ibn 'Umar used to consider them to be the worst of Allah's creation. He said, "They took verses which were revealed about the unbelievers and then applied them to the believers."

 

[Veila Mast]

Book of Riqaq (Hadiths which produce mercy in the heart)

6062. Abu'l-Khayr related from 'Uqba ibn 'Amir, "The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, went out one day and prayed over the people of Uhud with the prayer for the dead. Then he went to the minbar and said, 'I will prepare things for you and will be a witness for you. By Allah, I see my Basin now and I have been given the keys of the treasures of the earth (or the keys of the earth). By Allah, I do not fear for you that you will associate anything with Allah after me, but I fear for you that you will fight one another for them.'"

 

[Pakistani1947]

Dear Veila,

Your assumption (مُردوں سے مراد یہاں کُفّار ہیں) is wrong. The second verse clarifies the first verse below. But you must analyze it without any bias!

إِنَّكَ لَا تُسْمِعُ الْمَوْتَىٰ وَلَا تُسْمِعُ الصُّمَّ الدُّعَاءَ إِذَا وَلَّوْا مُدْبِرِينَ

Yusuf Ali 80: Truly thou canst not cause the dead to listen, nor canst thou cause the deaf to hear the call, (especially) when they turn back in retreat. [Surah an-Naml 27:80]
​

البتہ تو مردوں کو نہیں سنا سکتا اور نہ بہروں کو اپنی پکارسنا سکتا ہے جب وہ پیٹھ پھیر کر لوٹیں




وَمَا يَسْتَوِي الْأَحْيَاءُ وَلَا الْأَمْوَاتُ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُسْمِعُ مَن يَشَاءُ ۖ وَمَا أَنتَ بِمُسْمِعٍ مَّن فِي الْقُبُورِ
​

Yusuf Ali 22: Nor are alike those that are living and those that are dead. Allah can make any that He wills to hear; but thou canst not make those to hear who are (buried) in graves. [Surah Fatir 35:22]

اور زندے اور مردے برابر نہیں ہیں بے شک الله سناتا ہے جسے چاہے اور آپ انہیں سنانے والے نہیں جو قبروں میں ہیں
​

In the first verse Allah addresses His messenger, Muhamad (saws), reminding him that he cannot make the disbelievers hear the invitation to Islam, for they are like the dead, who do not hear either. In the second verse Allah points to the difference between the living and the dead - they are not all alike. He further clarifies to His prophet that he cannot make the rejectors of faith hear the message (for they are dead in heart and in spirit) any more than he can make those in the graves hear what is spoken to them! [See Tafseer at-Tabari, vol.21, p.36 and al-Qurtubi's al-Jami, vol.13, p.232]

Surah Namal: Quoted Ayat 80 AND NEXT AYAT:

اِنَّکَ لَا تُسْمِعُ الْمَوْتٰی وَلَا تُسْمِعُ الصُّمَّ الدُّعَآءَ اِذَا وَلَّوْا مُدْبِرِیۡنَ ﴿۸۰﴾
بیشک تمہارے سنائے نہیں سنتے مردے (ف۱۳۳) اور نہ تمہارے سنائے بہرے پکار سنیں جب پھریں پیٹھ دے کر (ف۱۳۴)


وَمَاۤ اَنۡتَ بِہٰدِی الْعُمْیِ عَنۡ ضَلٰلَتِہِمْ ؕ اِنۡ تُسْمِعُ اِلَّا مَنۡ یُّؤْمِنُ بِاٰیٰتِنَا فَہُمۡ مُّسْلِمُوۡنَ ﴿۸۱﴾
اور اندھوں کو (ف۱۳۵)ان کی گمراہی سے تم ہدایت کرنے والے نہیں تمہارے سنائے تو وہی سنتے ہیں جو ہماری آیتوں پر ایمان لاتے ہیں (ف۱۳۶) اور وہ مسلمان ہیں

Brief Explain:



مُردوں سے مراد یہاں کُفّار ہیں جن کے دل مُردہ ہیں چنانچہ اسی آیت میں ان کے مقابل اہلِ ایمان کا ذکر فرمایا ۔ '' اِنْ تُسْمِعُ اِلاَّ مَنْ یُّؤْمِنُ بِاٰیٰتِنَا '' جو لوگ اس آیت سے مُردوں کے نہ سننے پر استدلال کرتے ہیں ان کا استدلال غلط ہے چونکہ یہاں مُردہ کُفّار کو فرمایا گیا اور ان سے بھی مطلقاً ہر کلام کے سننے کی نفی مراد نہیں ہے بلکہ پند و موعِظت اور کلامِ ہدایت کے بسمعِ قبول سننے کی نفی ہے اور مراد یہ ہے کہ کافِر مُردہ دل ہیں کہ نصیحت سے منتفع نہیں ہوتے ۔ اس آیت کے معنی یہ بتانا کہ مردے نہیں سنتے بالکل غلط ہے صحیح احادیث سے مُردوں کا سُننا ثابت ہے ۔
(ف134)
معنٰی یہ ہیں کہ کُفّار غایت اعراض و روگردانی سے مُردے اور بہرے کے مثل ہو گئے ہیں کہ انہیں پکارنا اور حق کی دعوت دینا کسی طرح نافع نہیں ہوتا ۔

 

[Bret Hawk]

[MENTION=4976]pakistani[/MENTION]1947

I think youve lost the cue and subtle points of discernment of this delicate point of discussion as usual. Try to have a look on the text of two Ayaas youve presented in order to refute the claims of an active faculty of hearing by the deceased individuals. In both of those Ayaas Allah SWT is just making His point clear that Thou, Meaning you / others, cant make or induce the dead ones to hear something in that state until or unless if He Wills.

By using the chosen translated text of your choice it clearly indicates the exceptional clause here that Allah can make any that He wills to hear. In simple words He (The Almighty) can restore and induce the faculty of haring of anyone (Including the dead ones) if He wills to do so and Hes not constricted to display His immense capability of omnipotence under any circumstance.

So your produced line of argument is not conclusive and does not clearly draw out the required negation of that concept of hearing of an individual after his physical demise. The responsibility of producing the unequivocal negation of that concept in Toto is now surely rests on your shoulders.

 

[famamdani]

arey yaar..apni apni farmaish le kar jatey hai..phichli baar france ka president bhi aaya tha ladka paida honey ki wish lekar:P:P:P:P

bewakoof wohan kahan chalagaya.........................baby tube tou problem hi kia in europe........................[hilar][hilar]

 

[Pakistani1947]

@pakistani 1947

I think you’ve lost the cue and subtle points of discernment of this delicate point of discussion as usual. Try to have a look on the text of two Ayaas you’ve presented in order to refute the claims of an active faculty of hearing by the deceased individuals. In both of those Ayaas Allah SWT is just making His point clear that “Thou”, Meaning you / others, can’t make or induce the dead ones to hear something in that state until or unless if He Wills.

By using the chosen translated text of your choice it clearly indicates the exceptional clause here that “Allah can make any that He wills to hear”. In simple words He (The Almighty) can restore and induce the faculty of haring of anyone (Including the dead ones) if He wills to do so and He’s not constricted to display His immense capability of omnipotence under any circumstance.

So your produced line of argument is not conclusive and does not clearly draw out the required negation of that concept of hearing of an individual after his physical demise. The responsibility of producing the unequivocal negation of that concept in Toto is now surely rests on your shoulders.

In order to refute the allegations which claim that the deceased in the grave possess the faculty of hearing, it is essential to analyze them and discover the means by which such allegations are dependent upon weak and forged traditions and/or due to erroneous interpretattions of various texts.

There are a number of authentic narrations relating the Prophet's address to the corpses of the mushrikeen (polytheists) of Quraysh who were slain by the believers in the Battle of Badr and then thrown into a dried well. The following two examples suffice for the purpose of the present discussion:

Abu Talhah reported: "On the day of the Battle of Badr, Allah's Prophet (saws) ordered that the bodies of twenty-four leaders of the Quraysh be thrown into one of the foul, abandoned wells of Badr. On the third day after the battle the Prophet called for his mount and saddled it. Then he set out, so his companions followed him. They said amongst themselves, "He must be going to something important." When the Prophet (saws) arrived at the well, he stood at its edge and began addressing those therein by calling upon them by their names, "O so and so, son of so and so; and you, so and so, son of so and so! Would it not have been easier to have obeyed Allah and His Messenger? We have found that which our Lord promised us to be true (That is, that the believers would have victory over their enemy, the Quraysh. See al-Qurtubi's tafseer, al-Jami'u li Ahkam al-Qur'an, vol.7, p.370 regarding the information about Surah al-Anfal, 8:7-10.). Did you find what your Lord promosed you to be true?(This is a reference to the Quraysh's supplication asking their Lord to bring a painful punishment upon them if what Muhammad (saws) was preaching was the truth. See Surah al-Anfal, 8:32) Thereupon 'Umar said, "O Messenger of Allah, what are you saying to these bodies without souls?! Do they hear? For Allah, the Majestic and Mighty, says, "Verily, you cannot make the dead hear."[Surah an-Naml 27:80] The Prophet (saws) answered, "By Him in whose hand lies the soul of Muhammad, you did not hear better than them and what i just said." Qatadah (A famouse tabi'ee and a narrator of this hadith) added: "Allah brought them back (the slain Quraysh who bodies were in the abandoned well) to life (momentarily) in order to make them hear as a means of scorn and belittlement and [so that they would feel] regret and remorse." [Authentically related by al-Bukhari and Muslim]

In another narration of this incident there is a slight variation in the wording of the text which follows:
"Ibn 'Umar related: "The Prophet (saws) stood at the edge of a well (The same well mentioned earlier into which the bodies of the slain Quraysh were thrown) at Badr and said, "Did you find the promise of your Lord to be true?" Then he added, "Verily at this moment they hear what I am saying." Later on (Most likely after the Prophet's death), this was mentioned to 'A'ishah (RA), whereupon she commented, "What the Prophet (saws) meant was, "Now they know that what I used to tell them is the truth." Then she recited, "Verily you cannot make the dead hear,"[Surah an-Naml 27:80] up to the end of the verse."[Related authentically by al-Bukhari and others]

Some often misconstrue the texts of the two aforementioned hadiths as proof for the contention that the dead can hear. However, the following argumentation refutes such a claim. This miraculous circumstance in which the corpses of the slain Quraysh were made to hear the Prophet's address to them is a special case - an exception to the general rule that the dead do not hear (See al-Alusi's Ruh al-Ma'ani, vol.6 p.455) By a miracle, Allah, the Almighty, made them hear the scolding from the Prophet (saws) - only for the moment he spoke to them!(This is confirmed by many of the dependable commentators and jurists. For example, see al-ayat al-Bayyinat, pp.29, 56 and 59). This is clearly proven by the second narration itself, for their hearing was said to be conditioned by the moment when the Prophet (saws) called out to them in scorn and rebuke. He said, "At this moment they hear what I am saying." Furthermore, in the first narration the Prophet (saws) does not deny 'Umar's sound understanding of the verse's general ruling that the does do not hear. Rather, the Prophet (saws) merely clarifies for 'Umar that what occurred at Badr was a divine miracle and, therefore, an exception to the general ruling of the verse (See al-Ayat al-Bayyinat, pp.30-31).

Another text often quoted by those who believe that the dead can hear is the following tradition:

Anas bin Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (saws) said: "After the deceased is placed in his grave and his companions turn to leave, he hears the shuffling of their feet as they walk away. Then there comes to him the two angels."[Part of an authentic hadith related by al-Bukhari and Muslim]
This text is not valid evidence for the general claim that the dead can hear; rather, this tradition only specifies another exception to the general rule. In this case, the deceased hears the shuffling feet of those who attended his funeral as they walk away. This is a momentary possession of the faculty of hearing which is terminated at the point at which the two questioning angels (Munkar and Nakeer) come to him (See al-Ayat al-bayyinat, pp.38 and 56).

From what has preceded, it is abundantly clear that the deceased generally do not have the faculty of hearing, for they are beyond the barrier (barzakh) which separates our world from theirs. This proves the gross error in the thinking of those who attempt to carry on "conversations" with the dead, or worse, petition them for certain things. Petitioning the dead is shirk, and this is indeed the greatest of all sins.

 

[babadeena]

The discussion on the thread took another shape. The question was not:

a) Do the dead listen or not;
b) Where the Soul go after death;
c) what is the role of that soul after death;
d) Can any dead person's soul intercede on behalf of the Living; etc. etc. etc.

The purpose was:
"If any virtuous person living will sanction what is being done in the films, and
if not, then how the dead virtuous person will affect the business of a film due to
visit of a actress/actor to his Grave""".
Here is the brief answer to the questions raised:
a) Life and death are two different things;
b) At the time of death, Allah took the soul of the deceased;
c) No knowledge of that soul has been given to anyone, even when someone asked
our Prophet(pbuh), he was ordered to say that I have very little knowledge of this;
d) Once dead, all relations/connections severe;
e) Even Prophets(pbuh) will not be knowing at the Day of Judgement, what
response was given to them by the people at their lives' time.
Therefore, for me at least, Once dead, then till the day of Judgement,
the dead person cannot do anything.

 

[samar]

Its a matter of great shame that people come hear to spread sectarian hatred and every thread is diverted by them to a sectarian debate .............

we should reject such cheap people as it can be seen here the topic was something else but a person diverted to another side.......

shame on such a low character person who i have never seen on this forum promoting something positive that person is always spreading hatred and thats all.

I think such person shd be reported by the thread starters also bcs they ruin the aim of the thread........

 

[babadeena]

Its a matter of great shame that people come hear to spread sectarian hatred and every thread is diverted by them to a sectarian debate .............

we should reject such cheap people as it can be seen here the topic was something else but a person diverted to another side.......

shame on such a low character person who i have never seen on this forum promoting something positive that person is always spreading hatred and thats all.

I think such person shd be reported by the thread starters also bcs they ruin the aim of the thread........

This is an open forum. Everyone can express. Undue restrictions breed suffocation and resentment,
let the people may say and throw out their feelings. An attitude of accommodation is better than
the rejection. Anyhow this is just mine own personal opinion/way.

 

[samar]

This is an open forum. Everyone can express. Undue restrictions breed suffocation and resentment,
let the people may say and throw out their feelings. An attitude of accommodation is better than
the rejection. Anyhow this is just mine own personal opinion/way.

I never said that. there is a big difference ......I only said this thread and many threads had nothing to do with sectarian hatred why someone comes in and spoils it.....if its a good practice which i am not in favor of , then he/she can start a new thread rather than destroying another thread.

 

[Mughal1]

Islam is not a religion but a divine constitution for human community as to how it should organise to manage all its affairs in this life for the good outcome in this life as well as the next.

Islam is all about goals and guidelines for achieving them eg rights and responsibilities and rules and regulations. The goals are freedom, justice, fairness, compassion, brotherhood, progress and prosperity of mankind in both the worlds.

The set goals are so vast and difficult to achieve that trying to struggle for them leaves hardly any time for people to waste in all sorts of other nonsense that they have invented in the name of God ie make beliefs and dogmatic creeds and nonsense rituals do not help at all. If I need clear air to breath no matter how many babas I worship they cannot bring me clean air, that cannot happen unless people understand what pollutes air and what will help clean it and go ahead and do it. If people need fresh water they must work towards getting it only then they will get it. If people need food they need to work towards that and they will get it. It is because people are looking for answers of their problems in the wrong places and in the wrong ways that they get nothing other than more and more humiliation.

Allah created the world because it was his choice. Allah set up the world the way he wanted. He explained it all in his message so that we get to know things and behave in a way that brings us benefits rather harm and destruction and humiliation.

Spirits, angels, gods, demons are all religious concepts not concepts of the quran. The very simple way to know truth about these make belief concepts is that there is no proof for existence of such things on one hand and that by process of elimination we can see what these things cannot be.

The quran does not use words like ROOH, JIN,MALAIKAH, SHAITAAN in the sense the people take them as per their make beliefs. For example do jins have those powers that people attribute to them? If they did what kind of things would be expected to happen in the world the way they are assumed to behave?

If jins could fly to heavens, could they not have told what universe looked like to kufaar scientists long time ago? What would be the point for muslims telling kufaars today, look there are scientific facts mentioned in the quran long before scientists discovered them?

Copuld they not explain to them how things worked eg day and night phenomena and rain cycle etc etc? Today we know things which people did not know long before because we can fly away from the earth, which jins supposedly have been doing right from the start as per peoples' beliefs. What about so called satan, could he not tell a lot of universal secrets to people long before humans were able to find them out?

These like questions show how stupid human beings are who believe just anything. This is why when people who think critically read the quranic translations and interpretations they laugh at them because they wrap up the quran into all sorts of nonsense. Thus rather than guiding people we misguide them thanks to our own ignorance.

These babas if they had any such visions or powers which people attribute to them then they would have helped interpret the quranic verses correctly so their failure in doing that only shows that they did not have such powers. It would be a serious contradiction in their desire and behaviour that they wanted to spread divine knowledge but failed to convey it properly knowingly eg they knew what solar system was but still did not disclose that it was not earth centred but sun centred.

Prophet solomon and david stories are already discussed wherein people show no sensible thinking at all. We have seen how peers and mullahs use and abuse ignorant people in the name of all sorts of their make beliefs.

What makes me sad is that even educated people on this very forum are trapped in stupidity and they think they are thekedaar of islam. We have already discussed stories of jins regarding how they posses people and how exorcists get rid of them as per peoples' make beliefs. All these are make beliefs yet even educated people accept them all the same. If today humanity is in such low form as regard education then how long more we need to become knowledgeable? The quran and before that earlier books have been always telling us the same thing but we kept our make beliefs in tact and instead of learning from divine books we just managed to wrap up them as well in our own whims.

I also gave other arguments that if jinns, magic etc are all that what people believe about them to be then why is there need for nuclear weapons or any weapons for that matter? Why we need spies when jins can do this for us? Peers who claim powers for themselves or claim to have jins under their control, why don't they get money from banks for them or women and make them big houses etc etc? Why are they collecting pennies on street corners if they can easily get what they want with magical powers?

So please use your brains if you have them and stop aiding stupidity. Islam is that which is in the quran and this is how the quran proves truth against falsehood and nonsense.

Even if one thinks that I am talking nonsense about the quran please at at least realise that what you believe is definitely not true about magic and jins and powers you attribute to babas etc. Just for once think about why quran keeps arguing using solid facts? Why every other page of the quran invites us to be wise and use brains and observe universe? The quran leaves us no room to be superstitious and stupid. I mean we have tried our best to hide truth in the quran yet it keeps shinning through. The quran has surely defeated us again and again but are we giving up on trying to fight it again and again? No, we must have yet another try to prove that we are right and the quran is wrong.

Hope people wake up to reality, I can only try to explain things what I make of them from the quran. May Allah open our eyes to the truth.

 

[samar]

Islam is not a religion but a divine constitution for human community as to how it should organise to manage all its affairs in this life for the good outcome in this life as well as the next.

Islam is all about goals and guidelines for achieving them eg rights and responsibilities and rules and regulations. The goals are freedom, justice, fairness, compassion, brotherhood, progress and prosperity of mankind in both the worlds.

The set goals are so vast and difficult to achieve that trying to struggle for them leaves hardly any time for people to waste in all sorts of other nonsense that they have invented in the name of God ie make beliefs and dogmatic creeds and nonsense rituals do not help at all. If I need clear air to breath no matter how many babas I worship they cannot bring me clean air, that cannot happen unless people understand what pollutes air and what will help clean it and go ahead and do it. If people need fresh water they must work towards getting it only then they will get it. If people need food they need to work towards that and they will get it. It is because people are looking for answers of their problems in the wrong places and in the wrong ways that they get nothing other than more and more humiliation.

Allah created the world because it was his choice. Allah set up the world the way he wanted. He explained it all in his message so that we get to know things and behave in a way that brings us benefits rather harm and destruction and humiliation.

Spirits, angels, gods, demons are all religious concepts not concepts of the quran. The very simple way to know truth about these make belief concepts is that there is no proof for existence of such things on one hand and that by process of elimination we can see what these things cannot be.

The quran does not use words like ROOH, JIN,MALAIKAH, SHAITAAN in the sense the people take them as per their make beliefs. For example do jins have those powers that people attribute to them? If they did what kind of things would be expected to happen in the world the way they are assumed to behave?

If jins could fly to heavens, could they not have told what universe looked like to kufaar scientists long time ago? What would be the point for muslims telling kufaars today, look there are scientific facts mentioned in the quran long before scientists discovered them?

Copuld they not explain to them how things worked eg day and night phenomena and rain cycle etc etc? Today we know things which people did not know long before because we can fly away from the earth, which jins supposedly have been doing right from the start as per peoples' beliefs. What about so called satan, could he not tell a lot of universal secrets to people long before humans were able to find them out?

These like questions show how stupid human beings are who believe just anything. This is why when people who think critically read the quranic translations and interpretations they laugh at them because they wrap up the quran into all sorts of nonsense. Thus rather than guiding people we misguide them thanks to our own ignorance.

These babas if they had any such visions or powers which people attribute to them then they would have helped interpret the quranic verses correctly so their failure in doing that only shows that they did not have such powers. It would be a serious contradiction in their desire and behaviour that they wanted to spread divine knowledge but failed to convey it properly knowingly eg they knew what solar system was but still did not disclose that it was not earth centred but sun centred.

Prophet solomon and david stories are already discussed wherein people show no sensible thinking at all. We have seen how peers and mullahs use and abuse ignorant people in the name of all sorts of their make beliefs.

What makes me sad is that even educated people on this very forum are trapped in stupidity and they think they are thekedaar of islam. We have already discussed stories of jins regarding how they posses people and how exorcists get rid of them as per peoples' make beliefs. All these are make beliefs yet even educated people accept them all the same. If today humanity is in such low form as regard education then how long more we need to become knowledgeable? The quran and before that earlier books have been always telling us the same thing but we kept our make beliefs in tact and instead of learning from divine books we just managed to wrap up them as well in our own whims.

I also gave other arguments that if jinns, magic etc are all that what people believe about them to be then why is there need for nuclear weapons or any weapons for that matter? Why we need spies when jins can do this for us? Peers who claim powers for themselves or claim to have jins under their control, why don't they get money from banks for them or women and make them big houses etc etc? Why are they collecting pennies on street corners if they can easily get what they want with magical powers?

So please use your brains if you have them and stop aiding stupidity. Islam is that which is in the quran and this is how the quran proves truth against falsehood and nonsense.

Even if one thinks that I am talking nonsense about the quran please at at least realise that what you believe is definitely not true about magic and jins and powers you attribute to babas etc. Just for once think about why quran keeps arguing using solid facts? Why every other page of the quran invites us to be wise and use brains and observe universe? The quran leaves us no room to be superstitious and stupid. I mean we have tried our best to hide truth in the quran yet it keeps shinning through. The quran has surely defeated us again and again but are we giving up on trying to fight it again and again? No, we must have yet another try to prove that we are right and the quran is wrong.

Hope people wake up to reality, I can only try to explain things what I make of them from the quran. May Allah open our eyes to the truth.

i.e believe on what you can understand and reject what you cannot understand ???????

 

[Saboo]

mazarron aour dargah per jaa ker apni muradoon kie laie dua karna sub sie bara shirk hie. Allah is the greatest and only one can give u what ever you ask for.

Sometime God listens to His 'beloved' more than a believer and says yes more often than not.
In my opinion, a duua at a shrine is like asking for a safarish.

 

[Pakistani1947]

 

[Pakistani1947]

​

 

[Pakistani1947]

Sometime God listens to His 'beloved' more than a believer and says yes more often than not.
In my opinion, a duua at a shrine is like asking for a safarish.

[FONT=&amp]7:194 Those whom you call upon besides Allah, [such as mystics and saints], are people like you. Go ahead and call upon them, let them respond by helping you if you are true in your belief. [/FONT]

بے شک جنہیں تم الله کے سوا پکارتے ہو وہ تمہاری طرح کے بندے ہیں پھر انہیں پکار کر دیکھو پھر چاہے کہ وہ تمہاری پکار کو قبول کریں اگر تم سچے ہو

​

[FONT=&amp]
34:22 Say, “Call upon those whom you imagine beside Allah! They have not an atom’s weight of power either in the heavens or in the earth, nor have they any share in either, nor does He need any of them as a helper.” [/FONT]

کہہ دوالله کے سوا جن کا تمہیں گھمنڈ ہے انہیں پکارو وہ نہ تو آسمان ہی میں ذرّہ بھر اختیار رکھتے ہیں اور نہ زمین میں اور نہ ان کا ان میں کچھ حصہ ہے اور نہ ان میں سے الله کا کوئی مددکار ہے


​

 

[Mughal1]

i.e believe on what you can understand and reject what you cannot understand ???????

Could you dear samar please make your point properly so that we could take it to its conclusion clearly? Thanks. What we cannot understand, we cannot be held responsible for, can we?

 

[samar]

Could you dear samar please make your point properly so that we could take it to its conclusion clearly? Thanks. What we cannot understand, we cannot be held responsible for, can we?

true but can ve reject what we are unable to understand.

 

[Pakistani1947]

Could you dear samar please make your point properly so that we could take it to its conclusion clearly? Thanks. What we cannot understand, we cannot be held responsible for, can we?

Dear Mughal, they do not want to use their intellect. All they can do use abusive words for those who tries to educate them with logic and evidence from Quraan and authentic Hadeeths.