مرزا جہلمی کی نئی گمراہی...کیا انسان جنت میں منی/چھوٹا خدا بنا دیا جائیگا؟؟

[There is only 1]

All you people have are labels, you are a mavia lover, nasibi, etc etc but you have no logical arguments to back up your twisted beliefs. Your current authority on the Quran there is no proof he was even born so you people sent him into hiding and its been centuries and he is still hiding there! If this is not laughable then I don't know what is. Please click laugh/like to confirm you agree with me

سنو بد زبان ماریہ
تمہارے جسم پر کوئی تھوکتا بھی نہیں ، اور تمہاری رائے پر بھی
. . . . .
اور میں ہا ہا کا بٹن اپنی مرضی سے تمہاری سوچ کے بودے پن پر ہی کلک کرتا ہوں ، تمہارے کہنے یا منع کرنے پر ہرگز نہیں
​

 

[Citizen X]

Salat during the time of the Prophet

The prophetic salat sessions In its most occurrences in the Quran, the word SALAT means connection or COMMUNICATION1 – and, more specifically, communication with the message/messenger/guidance. A …

wp.me

This is exactly what the video says, and like I said you cannot resolve all the verses of the Quran in regards to salah with this definition of what are basically Islamic study sessions, also doesn't resolve why Allah would ordain them at only specific times of the days.

Its a good theory. but falls short.

 

[Citizen X]

سنو بد زبان ماریہ
تمہارے جسم پر کوئی تھوکتا بھی نہیں ، اور تمہاری رائے پر بھی
. . . . .
اور میں ہا ہا کا بٹن اپنی مرضی سے تمہاری سوچ کے بودے پن پر ہی کلک کرتا ہوں ، تمہارے کہنے یا منع کرنے پر ہرگز نہیں
​

Once again, nothing but empty chatter.

 

[optimistic]

Wrong. Hadith and Sunnah are two different things. And there is no deen in the hadith. All the deen is in the Quran and Sunnah.

Ok I take back my statement, Hadith and Sunnah are not essentially the same but the knowledge about Sunnah does come from Hadith literature, or how else do you know about Sunnah? How do you know How Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) prayed?

 

[optimistic]

Citizen X also define Sunnah and give me a source from which you derive the knowledge about Sunnah?

 

[Citizen X]

Ok I take back my statement, Hadith and Sunnah are not essentially the same but the knowledge about Sunnah does come from Hadith literature, or how else do you know about Sunnah? How do you know How Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) prayed?

Citizen X also define Sunnah and give me a source from which you derive the knowledge about Sunnah?

Thanks for the reply, if you don't mind ( I will get to answering your questions so be patient ) Answer me another question,.

Who taught you how to pray or perform salah?

 

[optimistic]

Thanks for the reply, if you don't mind ( I will get to answering your questions so be patient ) Answer me another question,.

Who taught you how to pray or perform salah?

Ok I can answer you but this would go on and on right, maybe just to cut the chase short, could you elaborate your differences to the video below (you can also post me another detailed source to look into), I find his explanation quite logical (first 8-9 mins):

P.S: I am a strong critic of Engg Muhammad Ali Mirza and usually oppose him. Kindly just focus on his explanation.

 

[Wake up Pak]

This is exactly what the video says, and like I said you cannot resolve all the verses of the Quran in regards to salah with this definition of what are basically Islamic study sessions, also doesn't resolve why Allah would ordain them at only specific times of the days.

Its a good theory. but falls short.

It is not just the theory but a fact. And if Allah wanted us to perform the namaz, why didn't He gave the details of it?

 

[Citizen X]

Ok I can answer you but this would go on and on right, maybe just to cut the chase short, could you elaborate your differences to the video below (you can also post me another detailed source to look into), I find his explanation quite logical (first 8-9 mins):

P.S: I am a strong critic of Engg Muhammad Ali Mirza and usually oppose him. Kindly just focus on his explanation.

He is almost 90% right, but hadith is not the written form of sunnah. But then again he is a very hardcore almost wahabi type of traditionalist. If you take away the deen 98% of their deen vanishes away into thin air.

Majority of hadith is khabr e wahid and you cannot take aqeeda aur deen from khabr e wahid. Imam Malik himself the author of the first Hadith book ever said if you follow these khabr e wahid the deen will be snatched away from your hands.

Our problem is we have elevated books like Sahih Bhukari to a divine status ( although now even the authenticity of the Sahih Bhukari is in doubt ) such a divine status that people are willing to insult prophets to keep the sanctity of their hadith books.

If you keep a few concepts clear in your head you will never have trouble shifting through weak or fabricated hadith. First Quran has authority over the hadith and hadith does not have any authority over the Quran. Second Always view the Hadith in the light of the Quran and not the Quran in the light of the hadith. Third Hadith can never go against reason, fourth it can never uproot an established usool of the deen and lastly it can never go against the Quran. And this set of rules I have derived from a combination of Imam Malik and Javed Ghamdi

I think Ghamdi said it best

"Narratives which record the words, deeds or tacit approvals of the Prophet (sws) generally called Hadīth, Hadith cannot add anything to the beliefs and practices of religion. This is because it is an irrefutable reality about these narratives that the Prophet (sws) never made any arrangement for their dissemination or preservation; it was left to the discretion of the viewers and listeners whether to communicate them or not. Whatever is mentioned in them with regard to religion is only an explanation and elucidation of the religion which is confined in the Qur'ān and Sunnah and also describes the exemplary way in which the Prophet (sws) followed this religion. This only is the sphere of Hadīth"

 

[Citizen X]

It is not just the theory but a fact. And if Allah wanted us to perform the namaz, why didn't He gave the details of it?

It is a theory, there is no proof of it, if it were a fact than there would be some Muslims today following this tradition of Salah sessions being carried on from generations on end. Like I've explained earlier Islam didn't start with Prophet Muhammad and the Quran wasn't the first book on it. Infact the Prophet was the last and the Quran the last book sent down by Allah. Salah and other practices were not new they had been going on for centuries on end. Its a well know fact the Prophet performed the Hajj even before he was given prophet hood. The Prophet Mohammad and the Quran were the last brick that completed the house of Islam. Not the first brick that laid its foundation.

SO these things didn't need to be explained in step by step detail. Just like when you come to meet me in my office and I ask you to have a seat, it is understood I am asking you to sit down on the chair in the office. I don't have to say please sit down on that chair.

 

[Wake up Pak]

It is a theory, there is no proof of it, if it were a fact than there would be some Muslims today following this tradition of Salah sessions being carried on from generations on end. Like I've explained earlier Islam didn't start with Prophet Muhammad and the Quran wasn't the first book on it. Infact the Prophet was the last and the Quran the last book sent down by Allah. Salah and other practices were not new they had been going on for centuries on end. Its a well know fact the Prophet performed the Hajj even before he was given prophet hood. The Prophet Mohammad and the Quran were the last brick that completed the house of Islam. Not the first brick that laid its foundation.

SO these things didn't need to be explained in step by step detail. Just like when you come to meet me in my office and I ask you to have a seat, it is understood I am asking you to sit down on the chair in the office. I don't have to say please sit down on that chair.

Salah sessions are being observed even now. There are about 60 million Quran only Muslims in the world and the number keeps climbing.
We all know that Islam didn't start with Propet Mohammad no need to explain that.
Again the same question arises wherein the Quran or earlier scriptures did Allah mention the ritual namaz? Can you just get me the details of it from the Quran? How many Rakats in each namaz? what to read in each namaz? when to do rakoo or sajood? Etc..
If you can't get this detail from the Quran then obviously Allah did not ordain it on Muslims.

 

[Citizen X]

Salah sessions are being observed even now. There are about 60 million Quran only Muslims in the world and the number keeps climbing.
We all know that Islam didn't start with Propet Mohammad no need to explain that.
Again the same question arises wherein the Quran or earlier scriptures did Allah mention the ritual namaz? Can you just get me the details of it from the Quran? How many Rakats in each namaz? what to read in each namaz? when to do rakoo or sajood? Etc..
If you can't get this detail from the Quran then obviously Allah did not ordain it on Muslims.

I'm not talking about Quranists I'm talking about this theory of Salah Sessions and sunnah in general, one major stumbling block being the all verses about salah that cannot be resolved with this salah session theory.

How did the Quran reach us and how can we be sure its still the original one that was revealed to the prophet. Through memorization and being passed on from generation to generation among 100's of 1000s of people. That is called Sunnah Mutawatir or Ijmah. Similarly thats how the sunnah reached us too. Even if today all the written copies of the Quran were destroyed and deleted, the Quran would not disappear from this planet. Similarly with the Sunah.

If anything the two things common among all Muslims and even Kuffiya sects like the Awalites and Ahamdis one thing remains common among them all. Is the Quran and Salah. If the ritual Salah is wrong then there are pretty much good chances the Quran we have today is not the same exact one that was revealed to the Prophet. Because both of them reached us through the same way.

 

[Citizen X]

Haha???, Mr. Triggered.
Chor ko sub chor nazar aty hain.

Mate you need to learn to relax a bit, I'm still waiting for some kind of logical argument from you. I know its a long shot, but hey its worth a try.

 

[Wake up Pak]

I'm not talking about Quranists I'm talking about this theory of Salah Sessions and sunnah in general, one major stumbling block being the all verses about salah that cannot be resolved with this salah session theory.

How did the Quran reach us and how can we be sure its still the original one that was revealed to the prophet. Through memorization and being passed on from generation to generation among 100's of 1000s of people. That is called Sunnah Mutawatir or Ijmah. Similarly thats how the sunnah reached us too. Even if today all the written copies of the Quran were destroyed and deleted, the Quran would not disappear from this planet. Similarly with the Sunah.

If anything the two things common among all Muslims and even Kuffiya sects like the Awalites and Ahamdis one thing remains common among them all. Is the Quran and Salah. If the ritual Salah is wrong then there are pretty much good chances the Quran we have today is not the same exact one that was revealed to the Prophet. Because both of them reached us through the same way.

Allah has taken the task upon himself that He will protect the Quran till Qiyama. No need for Sunnah mutawatar or whatnot.
Do not compare the ritual salah with the Quran being wrong.
Once again and last time give me the details in the Quran of ritual salat unless you believe that the Quran is incomplete and not detailed.
I want to continue the ritual salat but i can not find it in the Quran.

These few Ayats are sufficient to shun the ritual salat.....

"When they are told: 'Follow what God has sent down to you,' they say: 'We are following what we found our fathers doing.' " (Qur'an: 2:170)

"Alif Lam Ra. These are the signs of the Scripture, and a clear Qur'an." (Qur’an 15:1)

"Do they not reflect on the Qur'an? If it was from any other than God they would have found in it many contradictions." (Qur'an 4:82)

"Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed?" (Qur'an 6:114)

"And We have revealed the Book to you which has clear explanation of everything, and a guidance, mercy and good news for those who submit." (Qur'an 16:89)

"We did not leave anything out of this book." (Qur'an 6:38)

"Should We treat the ones who have surrendered the same as those who are criminals? What is wrong with you, how do you judge? Or do you have another book which you study? In it you find whatever you wish to find?" (Qur’an 68:36-38)

"We have cited in this Qur'an every example for the people. But the human being is always most argumentative." (Qur'an 18:54)

"The words of your Lord are complete in its truth and justice. Nothing can change His words – He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing. If you obeyed most of those on earth, they would lead you away from the path of God. They follow nothing but speculation – they are merely guessing." (Qur’an 6:115-116)

"And they nearly diverted you from the revelations We have given you so that you would fabricate something different against Us, and then they would have taken you as a friend!" (Qur'an 17:73)

 

[optimistic]

He is almost 90% right, but hadith is not the written form of sunnah. But then again he is a very hardcore almost wahabi type of traditionalist. If you take away the deen 98% of their deen vanishes away into thin air.

Majority of hadith is khabr e wahid and you cannot take aqeeda aur deen from khabr e wahid. Imam Malik himself the author of the first Hadith book ever said if you follow these khabr e wahid the deen will be snatched away from your hands.

Our problem is we have elevated books like Sahih Bhukari to a divine status ( although now even the authenticity of the Sahih Bhukari is in doubt ) such a divine status that people are willing to insult prophets to keep the sanctity of their hadith books.

If you keep a few concepts clear in your head you will never have trouble shifting through weak or fabricated hadith. First Quran has authority over the hadith and hadith does not have any authority over the Quran. Second Always view the Hadith in the light of the Quran and not the Quran in the light of the hadith. Third Hadith can never go against reason, fourth it can never uproot an established usool of the deen and lastly it can never go against the Quran. And this set of rules I have derived from a combination of Imam Malik and Javed Ghamdi

I think Ghamdi said it best

"Narratives which record the words, deeds or tacit approvals of the Prophet (sws) generally called Hadīth, Hadith cannot add anything to the beliefs and practices of religion. This is because it is an irrefutable reality about these narratives that the Prophet (sws) never made any arrangement for their dissemination or preservation; it was left to the discretion of the viewers and listeners whether to communicate them or not. Whatever is mentioned in them with regard to religion is only an explanation and elucidation of the religion which is confined in the Qur'ān and Sunnah and also describes the exemplary way in which the Prophet (sws) followed this religion. This only is the sphere of Hadīth"

Thanks for the detailed reply. I agree to your part about people taking Hadith books to a divine level and making it their prime source over Quran. Just one thing, where does Hadith stand in comparison to Sunnah. When Ghamidi sahab said Hadith is the explanation and elucidation of what's in Quran and Sunnah, this is exactly where Ahl e Hadith would fingerpoint at other schools of thoughts for not following Sunnah the way it should be, e.g. the debate over certain aspects of salah. What would you say to that?

Also could you refer some books on this issue. Maybe from Ghamidi sahab.

 

[Wake up Pak]

 

[Citizen X]

Thanks for the detailed reply. I agree to your part about people taking Hadith books to a divine level and making it their prime source over Quran. Just one thing, where does Hadith stand in comparison to Sunnah. Do you not think its the reference point for resolving conflicts over certain sunnah e.g. the debate over certain aspects of salah. If not what are the other ways?

Also could you refer some books on this issue. Maybe from Ghamidi sahab.

Hadith has nothing much to do with sunnah. Its mostly a record of the times and life of the Prophet s.a.w. After all he was human being who had friends, family, he interacted with his people, he sat and ate with them, what his likes and dislikes were, how he treated his friends and family, so on and so forth, so many people who saw the Prophet do these things, some decided to narrate these events some decided not to.

One would imagine the person who spent the most time with the Prophet s.a.w was his friend before he became a prophet wasby his side literally almost all the time and even succeeded him as the Ameer, Syedna Abu Bakr r.a would have narrated the most amount of hadith regarding the Prophet s,a,w but in reality he has related I think maybe only 50 hadith. Same with Hazrat Umar r.a. That is because The Prophet strictly warned that associated lies with me is not the same as lying about any other person and who ever does so will have a special place in hell. So his closet Sahaba were very careful about narrating hadith.

On the other hand someone like Abu Huraira who compared to the others hardly knew the Prophet. less than 3 years, never embarked on any adventures with him has narrated the most hadith than anyone elese, even if you combine all the hadith of the Kulafa Rashidun and the Ahl e bayt they are still out numbered by the hadith narrated by Abu Huraira.

There is a hadith ( although I am still investigating this claim to be authentic or just shia propaganda ) That Hazrat Umar r.a actually whipped Abu Huraira one time on the account that he would narrate too much hadith all the time, but once Hazrat Umar r,a passed away he started again to narrate hadith.

Sunnah is not having 000cms long beard, wearing certain type of headgear, using miswak, having pants above the ankles, women dressed like tents, segregated from society behind locked doors etc etc. Come on man, you think Allah s.w.t would really care about any of these things? Read the Quran if it were these thing would be mentioned again and again, just like tawheed, salah, zakah etc etc is.

Even if you are a moderately practicing muslim. You already know all the Sunnah, whether you do raf al yadeen or not, tie your hand above the navel or below etc etc, these are all petty things that do not matter, Allah s.w.t looks at your niyah and even according to the hadith the Prophet prayed incorporating all of these. Sometimes he would do raf al yadeen sometimes not, sometimes he would tie his hands like this sometimes like that.

Our traditionalist mullahs has entangled us in this petty dogmatism all the while ignoring the larger picture of the deen, can you believe once someone in Pakistan told me that my prayers won't be accepted because I was wearing jeans and "namaz" can only be accepted in shalwar khameez!!!!

As for books Meezan is a good book to get started off by Javed Ghamdi, it is also translated into English

I also strongly suggest watching this 8 episode series.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvDnnnkYLWQd2fOzwPb-SDxVHtoC4bN3n

 

[optimistic]

Hadith has nothing much to do with sunnah. Its mostly a record of the times and life of the Prophet s.a.w. After all he was human being who had friends, family, he interacted with his people, he sat and ate with them, what his likes and dislikes were, how he treated his friends and family, so on and so forth, so many people who saw the Prophet do these things, some decided to narrate these events some decided not to.

One would imagine the person who spent the most time with the Prophet s.a.w was his friend before he became a prophet wasby his side literally almost all the time and even succeeded him as the Ameer, Syedna Abu Bakr r.a would have narrated the most amount of hadith regarding the Prophet s,a,w but in reality he has related I think maybe only 50 hadith. Same with Hazrat Umar r.a. That is because The Prophet strictly warned that associated lies with me is not the same as lying about any other person and who ever does so will have a special place in hell. So his closet Sahaba were very careful about narrating hadith.

On the other hand someone like Abu Huraira who compared to the others hardly knew the Prophet. less than 3 years, never embarked on any adventures with him has narrated the most hadith than anyone elese, even if you combine all the hadith of the Kulafa Rashidun and the Ahl e bayt they are still out numbered by the hadith narrated by Abu Huraira.

There is a hadith ( although I am still investigating this claim to be authentic or just shia propaganda ) That Hazrat Umar r.a actually whipped Abu Huraira one time on the account that he would narrate too much hadith all the time, but once Hazrat Umar r,a passed away he started again to narrate hadith.

Sunnah is not having 000cms long beard, wearing certain type of headgear, using miswak, having pants above the ankles, women dressed like tents, segregated from society behind locked doors etc etc. Come on man, you think Allah s.w.t would really care about any of these things? Read the Quran if it were these thing would be mentioned again and again, just like tawheed, salah, zakah etc etc is.

Even if you are a moderately practicing muslim. You already know all the Sunnah, whether you do raf al yadeen or not, tie your hand above the navel or below etc etc, these are all petty things that do not matter, Allah s.w.t looks at your niyah and even according to the hadith the Prophet prayed incorporating all of these. Sometimes he would do raf al yadeen sometimes not, sometimes he would tie his hands like this sometimes like that.

Our traditionalist mullahs has entangled us in this petty dogmatism all the while ignoring the larger picture of the deen, can you believe once someone in Pakistan told me that my prayers won't be accepted because I was wearing jeans and "namaz" can only be accepted in shalwar khameez!!!!

As for books Meezan is a good book to get started off by Javed Ghamdi, it is also translated into English

I also strongly suggest watching this 8 episode series.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvDnnnkYLWQd2fOzwPb-SDxVHtoC4bN3n

Ok I agree with you to mostly, specially the points you raised about Khulafa e rashideen, but I believe there is a difference between how traditional Mullahs represent Hadith and how the actual commentators and scholars of Hadith looked at it. While I do find your position convincing, I would urge you to refrain from going to the other extreme as well. While I do agree that Ahl e Hadith have really made some petty issues mainstream while there never have been any conflict in ummah over those and thats why I feel these guys have created a new fitnah and a divide. But you do agree that Hadith also covers sayings of Prophet PBUH where he instructed about certain things and warned about others, so we should not completely undermine the importance of that imo.

 

[Citizen X]

Allah has taken the task upon himself that He will protect the Quran till Qiyama. No need for Sunnah mutawatar or whatnot.
Do not compare the ritual salah with the Quran being wrong.
Once again and last time give me the details in the Quran of ritual salat unless you believe that the Quran is incomplete and not detailed.
I want to continue the ritual salat but i can not find it in the Quran.

These few Ayats are sufficient to shun the ritual salat.....

"When they are told: 'Follow what God has sent down to you,' they say: 'We are following what we found our fathers doing.' " (Qur'an: 2:170)

"Alif Lam Ra. These are the signs of the Scripture, and a clear Qur'an." (Qur’an 15:1)

"Do they not reflect on the Qur'an? If it was from any other than God they would have found in it many contradictions." (Qur'an 4:82)

"Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed?" (Qur'an 6:114)

"And We have revealed the Book to you which has clear explanation of everything, and a guidance, mercy and good news for those who submit." (Qur'an 16:89)

"We did not leave anything out of this book." (Qur'an 6:38)

"Should We treat the ones who have surrendered the same as those who are criminals? What is wrong with you, how do you judge? Or do you have another book which you study? In it you find whatever you wish to find?" (Qur’an 68:36-38)

"We have cited in this Qur'an every example for the people. But the human being is always most argumentative." (Qur'an 18:54)

"The words of your Lord are complete in its truth and justice. Nothing can change His words – He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing. If you obeyed most of those on earth, they would lead you away from the path of God. They follow nothing but speculation – they are merely guessing." (Qur’an 6:115-116)

"And they nearly diverted you from the revelations We have given you so that you would fabricate something different against Us, and then they would have taken you as a friend!" (Qur'an 17:73)

I agree 100%, Quran is perfect and nothing is left out from it in the matter of deen, and Salah is mentioned multiple of times. Now its only your choice to interpret Salah as a Christian Church or Bible studies type thing, (Even though as most verses cannot reconcile with that) or follow the Sunnah which is being handed down generation by generation just like the quran.

To a thinking man, these Salah sessions would not make sense. How many times has it been said to do these 2 or 3 times a day. Anyways in this modern and busy world where people are struggling to even time to a 5 minute "ritual salah" anywhere and in any condition he is in. Salah sessions would mean we would have to take out at least a good chunk of time to sit and conduct these Salah sessions.

If I am working in a busy office and its time for Salah session, what do I do? I go find some quite corner and sit and do salah session by myself? If I am travelling I shorten my salah session, I just say Allahu Akbar three times does this qualify as a salah session.

If Muslims are at war, one groups runs and places at matt and one group stands guard and while the other sits there reading Quran and glorying Allah ( I'm sorry I forget again what else am I suppose to do in Salah sessions ) all the while keeping their weapons by their side when they finish they go back to the rear and the next group comes and does the same?

Yes Quran is 100% and if Salah really means Salah sessions then it would not leave such gaping holes in it. If you don't believe it refers to "ritual prayer" then it also does not mean salah session. Which would only mean it refers to something else.

 

[optimistic]

KEEP following the fake ahadith that is why Muslims are doomed. CASE CLOSED...

Now you are simply dodging the question, give me your understanding of the ayat? What does "Ati ullah" and "Ati ur rusool" mean in the ayat...what is the difference between the two...and how do you do that?...don't bother if you want to dodge it again and just resort to mockery, as I dont want to waste my time.