Namaz py koi compromise nahi
- Thread starter Hunter_
- Start date
سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَالْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ وَلاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ اللَّهُ وَاللَّهُ أَكْبَرُ وَلاَ حَوْلَ وَلاَ قُوَّةَ إِلاَّ بِاللَّ
Saboo
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Isn.t this Ayat e Karima?
Saboo
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Oh thanks a lot….and the other one is probably third kalima.
Citizen X
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Another wannabe be arab. Saudi maal khaya hai to phir wafa to kerni pardi gi. They should be named Lifafa Moulvis.
azeezam hunter sb, I was thinking about starting this sort of thread but you beat me to it. I do not think namaaz is or can be a pillar of deen of islam but that remains to be seen.
Thanks for giving me opportunity to challenge all people here who claim to be namaazi muslims to prove that namaaz is or can be a pillar of deen of islam. In my understanding namaaz as understood by mullaans and their followers has nothing at all to do with deen of islam. So called muslims derive word namaaz from word SALAAH but this word does not and cannot mean namaaz in the proper context of the quranic text. Why not? Because before anyone could interpret word salaah as namaaz one has to prove that it serves a definite vitally important purpose in deen of islam. I say vitally important because according to mullaans it is the pillar of deen of islam so it has to be something vitally important. So can anyone try and do that ie prove that namaaz is a pillar of deen of islam? If any one thinks one can please start so that i could respond to your confusion. By the way people, please do not forget to check out my thread HERE. You will find it very helpful.
regards and all the best
Wake up Pak
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Unfortunately, Muslims think that Salaah is namaz. I have been asking people if the namaz they perform can be verified from the Quran or the one complete hadeeth?
The reply I get is that you are a heretic/apostate/kaafir/Qadiani/Perwezi etc. but, no one could ever come up with the proper answer. They don't even know what they are reciting in the namaz.
The survey was conducted a few years back about how many people perform namaz five times a day? It says, only 11% perform five times a day.
azeezam wake up pak sb, to begin with my main concern is, islam is a deen not a mazhab. I have explained already why islam has to be a deen and it cannot be a mazhab. Now I am coming to problems with so called individual pillars of islam according to mullaans and their blind followers. Here my first concern is not about how people perform namaaz but why they do so at all? If as people say it is a vitally important thing in deen of islam then it has to be something without doing which one cannot be a muslim at all or without which deen of islam will be a defective thing not a perfect or a complete thing. Particularly when we are told it is the very central pillar of deen of islam. If this pillar falls down then islam falls apart.
My second concern is meanings of word salaah and what sort of meaning of this word will fit properly in the proper context of the quranic text. Once all these points are justified only then question arises as to how to perform namaaz. Just like almost every other word in arabic language word salaah also has many meanings, so why choose namaaz as its meaning? One has to justify choice of this particular meaning otherwise one cannot prove namaaz is the very central pillar of deen of islam.
My other concern is, why God needs people to perform act of namaaz and particularly at particular times? If we say, praying is needed by human beings so that they could ask for things they need from God then question arises, does God fulfil requests of people that way? The answer is a clear cut no. If God does not fulfil requests of people then what is the point in people praying to God for things? If praying was that necessary for getting things from God then why are nonmuslims getting things of their needs from God without asking for them from God? If God does give things of need to all things then what is point of praying to God for things? So how can such a confusing thing be a central pillar of deen of islam?
Praising God is nothing more than empty lip service that does nothing good for God or humanity and if anything it demeans and belittles God by showing God is only full of himself and has no concern for humanity at all. So where is sense in praising someone day and night instead of doing what needs to be done for bringing about goodness in this world? Then we are told if anyone does not perform daily prayers then God will throw him in hell. Is God not trying to frightened us into doing senseless and needless things instead of telling us to use our brains? So one can see how such beliefs and practices put huge question marks on the being of God. God is supposed to be proving to us that he is great and full of all goodness but instead he seems to be proving he is useless and full of badness. It is because respect is to be earned not demanded by force or with threats etc. What good it can do for humanity if whole human world sat down and started saying God is great day and night? It changes nothing at all for God or for humanity. If God is great then his greatness has to be proven to us and if he is good his goodness must be proven to us by God himself. If God proves himself great and good then that greatness and goodness must show up in human world.
Moreover even if God gives people things they need by praying to God then this cannot be time bound because people will only ask for things from God when they will need them. Does it at all make sense that we pray to God for things at fixed times when we really do not need them? Yet more problems arise in respect of praying on fixed times. It is because here on this earth day times are not fixed. At the very same time in one place on the earth it is the day time while at another place it is the night time. In the very same world one person is praying the fajar prayer while others are praying zohr, asr, maghrib and ishaa prayers. Not only that but there are places here on the earth where people live but there is permanent night or day for months there. Did God not know that all this prayer thing will be an absurd things for so many different reasons? Then we have problems with stories about five daily prayers such as prayers were gifted by God to his messenger on the night of miraaj. They were originally 50 which were reduced to 5 due to intervention of another messenger of God by name of moses.
So one can see how many unanswerable questions arise about God if we interpret word salaah as namaaz. Unless such questions are answered properly to think salaah means namaaz cannot be right.
Many times words salaah and zakaah come together in the quran, why? What has prayer to do with donations for the poor? I will come to problems with so called other pillars of islam of mullaans at another time. Here I rather stick to namaaz. Although my this reply is in response to your post but it is for everyone who promotes mazhab and its absurdities as actual deen of islam. Mazhab is not deen of islam at all rather it is anti deen of islam. I have already explained in detail what actual deen of islam is or can be.
So people should not interpret the quranic text the way it can be clearly proven wrong. This is like attributing lies to God, his messenger and his book. There is no dispute that deen of islam has five pillars. But those pillars are not namaaz, roza etc etc ie mazhabi pillars as told by mullaans and their blind followers.
regards and all the best.
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Citizen X
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Ok for my own clarification since I have a lot of doubt regarding this, I would like to ask both of you gentlemen what is the salah mentioned in the Quran multiple times, and there is a verse also that says that during battle one still has to perform them, when group is finished the other can come and perform them. Surah Nissah 103.
I have watched the detailed videos from Quran Centric on this but his explanations and arguments of "salah sessions" do not sit well with me. Ghulam Ahmad Pervez I consider to be for lack of a better word a lunatic, and I've come to this conclusion after hearing and watching him.
TBH the best conclusion that sits well with my intellect is what Ghamdi saab has come up with, but there is also a major flaw in his explanation that the ritual salah as performed by billions of Muslims was passed down to generation to generation going back to how people saw the Prophet s.a.w perform.
1st issue is that is the same issue with hadith, how can something be preserved flawless for centuries just by word of mouth, as even science proves human memory is not very dependable and unknowingly make up things over time. So even if there was a ritual prayer there is absolutely no guarantee that what we know as salah today is the same salah from the Prophets time.
2nd issue I find it hard to believe that Allah s.w.t would require us to go through such a ritualistic practice with really no real foreseeable benefit
So I'm at odds at to what really is salah, cannot totally disregard it as it is clearly mentioned and emphasized in the Quran quite a lot.
P.S : Specially for Mr Mughal saab please keep your answer free from perwez and precise, no one is going to read your novels or here, here and here and most of all free from "azeezum"
Wake up Pak
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
First of all, We need to clarify the meaning of the word Salat as it is mentioned several times with different derivatives.
Salaat= follows closely like runners-up (Musalli) follows the winning horse.
Aqimussallat = following divine commands closely. The Quran commands us to remember Allah lying, sitting, and standing any time. Call it the ritual salaat.
The Book of Allah certainly is, complete and detailed. Say this to a moulvi and the knee-jerk response will be, no, it does not give you the method of namaz, did Allah forget?
The books of Hadith combined will fail to give you a complete, consistent method of namaz.
Verse #4:102/103 is in context to the war situation. To my understanding, (I could be wrong) they were discussing the war strategy where one group comes forward and the other guards, and then the second group comes forward and the first one guards. Sajadu means to adhere to or follow the guidelines/strategy as it was discussed by the Prophet Mohammad.
Citizen X
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Thanks for the effort, like I said I've listened to Quran Centric argument about the meaning of the word salah and others derived from it. It makes sense in some instances but then it doesn't in others, like the ayah I quoted from Surah Nissah.
To me it seems highly unlikely it could be war strategy since it's talking about the dangers being faced by the prophet while migrating hence the "salah" is allowed to be shortened, said while lying down, sitting or standing. And then goes into the verse that when the Prophet leads the "salah" he should lead one group, then they can leave and the other one can come in.
I dunno sometimes I feel wrong that I'm not praying anymore but when I think that I should start again, all these questions come into my mind and how nothing really changed in my life when I was praying regularly or when I left it i.e I cannot say I received any benefit from it other than always feeling a little guilty for having missed this salah or that salah or that I should hurry up otherwise I will miss salah.
Salah is clearly mentioned in the Quran many times, times given, start of the day, middle of the day, end of the day and that we should purify ourselves before salah.
Now I'm on this quest to find out what actually is Salah.
Wake up Pak
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Sometimes, I wonder as well what Namaz is? but, when I go through all the verses of the Salat, I can't come up with the current ritual method of Namaz.
If Allah can give us detail about the inheritance law, why not the Salat? Did he forget about it? What Muslims have achieved by performing the Namaz? There is a verse in the Quran that the so-called "Namaz" was supposed to protect us from evil and vice but, evil and vice in the Muslim world are much prevalent than in other parts of the world.
I received this piece of info from a friend about the Zorastarian prayer which is quite similar to our Namaz. I do not know if is true or not?
Posting as received.
I am a Zoroastrian. Your NAMAAZ was stolen from Zoroastrianism by your Parsi Imams from Persia. It would be appropriate if we can discuss the startling similarities between some practices of Islam and
Zoroastrianism. These parallels go beyond the co-incindental normal ones. I will endeavour to enumerate a few here:
01. Requirements of prayers: Islam enjoins its followers to pray 5 times a day and is called by the Muezzin to his prayers.These prayers are at i) Dawn ii) Noon iii) Afternoon iv) Sunset v) Night.
Zoroastrianism also enjoins prayers 5 times a day called "Geh". The devotee is summoned by the ringing of a bell in the AtashBehram / Agiary. These prayers are also at the same time as in Islam and their respective names are:
Time: Islamic/ Zorastrianism
Dawn: Fajar/ Havaan
Noon: Zohar/ Rapithwan
Afternoon: Asr/ Uziren
Evening: Mazreem or Maghrib/ Aiwisuthrem
Night time: Isha or Ishan/ Ushaen.
02. Pre-requisites of Prayer: On entering the mosque and prior to commencing prayers a Muslim has to cover his head and wash his face and limbs. Similarly, a Zoroastrian on entering the Agiary will cover his head, wash his face and
limbs and perform the Padyaab Kusti before commencing his prayers.
03. The Prayers: Prayers in Islam are in Arabic only, though translations/transliterations are available. The liturgy has to be conducted in Arabic only. In Zoroastrianism too, prayers have to be recited in Avesta or in Pazend only. In fact in
Aveatan prayers Pazend portions have to be recited in an undertone so as not to break the seamless flow of Avestan Manthravani.
04. Sanctum Sanctorum and its veneration: The holiest spot in a Mosque is the wall facing Mecca and is called the Qiblah. In the Atashbehram/Agiary the room where the Atash Padshah is enthroned is also called the Keblaah. A Muslim
will perform the Sajdah in front of the Qiblah and so also will the Zoroastrian perform the Sezdah before his Keblaah. Both involve kneeling down and touching the forehead to the ground.
05. A Holy Month: In Islam Ramzan is the holy month in which all Muslims are required to fast in the day and only break their fast after sunset. In Zoroastrianism the month of Bahman has similiar connotations wherein all are requested to
particularly abstain from flesh. Perhaps in the age of the Sassanian dynasty the month of Bahman was observed as Ramzan is now.
06. Ascent into Heaven: The hagiography of Islam assures us that Prophet Mohammad ascended to heaven from Jerusalem on the mythical beast Burrrak. He crossed the 7 spheres, exchanged greetings with the patriarchs and beheld the
glory of God.
The Dinkard tells us that at the entreaties of Asho Zarthustra Bahman Ameshaspand transcendentally elevated his consciousness to the realm of heaven wherein Asho Zarthustra looked at the reflugent majesty of God. A similiar journey was
attributed to the virtuous Ardaviraf who visited hell, purgatory and heaven during his spiritual journey.
The above similarities are obvious. A more careful research would reveal more parallels. However even these points are too close to be dismissed as mere coincidences. This means Zoroastrianism has had an enormous impact on Islam which is
not acknowledged. Everyone agrees Islam owes a lot to Judaism and Christianity but I feel that the scholars of Islam borrowed very heavily from Iran and this can be perhaps attributed to that shadowy figure of Dastur Dinyar (Salman Farsi).
This debt is so impressive that it had to be consistently downgraded and later denied. After all if Islam is supposedly directly inspired by God it cannot be seen to be acknowledging any debt to an older faith, specially the faith of a nation which
Islam has defeated. This may perhaps explain the devotion of your Persian Imams to my Faith.
07. Chinvat Bridge (The SIRAAT BRIDGE): According to ancient Persian myth, when a person dies, the soul remains by the body for three days. On the fourth, it travels to Chinvat Bridge (the Bridge of the Separator, also call Al-Sirat),
accompanied by gods of protection. The bridge is "finer than a hair and sharper than a sword" and spans a deep chasm teeming with monsters. On the other side of the bridge is the gateway to paradise.
Citizen X
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Yeah thats what gets me as well, but like I said Ghamdi's saab explanation seems to fit in the most but it also has its inherent problems as I mentioned earlier
Wake up Pak
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
I am sure you are familiar with the famous fabricated hadith about the Prophet Mohammad flying on a mysterious creature (Burraq) to meat Allah and he gets 50 Namaz initially and, then Hazrat Moosa intervened several times, and eventually, we got only 5 Namaz. Isn't it a joke?
It's a long hadith and the majority of the Muslims believe in it blindly.
Unfortunately, We have turned the Quran into a book of "Ibadah" whereas, it is a book of Hidaya.
Citizen X
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
These are different topics which I agree with you on. Although still doesn't help me in understanding what the Quran is really referring to when it says salah.
I do keep doors to all possibilities open though, in order not to be become biased and close minded.
Wake up Pak
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
The reason for the above stuff I posted was to clear the concept that the current Namaz is not the Salat mentioned in the Quran.
I am open to all the possibilities as well but, as of now I do not perform the ritual Namaz but, God knows, down the road, if I come up with a better understanding about the Salat then I will look into it.
Citizen X
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Thats the thing, if its not the ritual salah then what could it be, that's the real question. And since we don't know what it is, we are not doing it, hence missing out on something important.
For a while I was satisfied, that ok fine its not the ritual salah, so really no real need to do it, but now of late I have this nagging feeling that what is salah and since the Quran mentions it, we need to do be doing it. And since we ain't we could or do fall under the disobedient/sinner category.
I also sometimes think, that salah does refer to the ritual salah and maybe I am wrong. Who knows maybe I might go back to it, since I'm not able to figure out what salah is, and for lack of an alternative or better explanation.
Maybe also just as backup! What if it is the ritual salah, then I'm covered! lol
Wake up Pak
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
By all means, if you feel comfortable performing the ritual Namaz go ahead. My family members do perform the ritual Namaz but, I don't anymore. Until and unless I find out the concrete meaning/understanding of the word Salat from the Quran, I just can't keep repeating the ritual Namaz over and over again with zero outcomes.
I could be wrong but, I don't believe that there is any verse in the Quran about sinning if, we do not perform "Namaz" (But as per some forum members, you are a sinner LOL!).
