Jeniffer! An American Singer after Embracing Islam: MaaShaAllah.

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
You are leading them in wrong direction because of your flawed methodologies.

So answer two questions for me:
1. How do you eliminate very other possibility if you do not know all the possibilities?
2. If you do know all the possibilities then how? Are you omniscient?

Dear vitamin c, I am not misleading anyone but helping people become aware of major flaws in your way of looking at things in comparison to my way of looking at things. That is all there is to it. I am trying to make people become aware of the fact that going about life the way you explain it, is a waste of their time and energy because that way of looking at things leads no where at all. Had it then so far we will have reached some worthy end or conclusion but we have not because it is an open ended situation you are calling or inviting everyone to. This is why I already explained for you that an open ended explanation is no explanation at all for us human beings because we are not in a position to postpone or suspend our necessary decisions on that basis.

Life decisions need to be made regardless at whatever stage of our life we are. So we are better off following sensible traditions or creating sensible tradition rather than following an unending path or a path that goes no where ie a dead end and so become bewildered or totally confused or fully trapped. My way of looking at things helps them make decisions that need to be made and carry on living and keep making progress and be prosperous. In no way I am telling people to close their minds but instead I am hoping they will keep their minds open and carry on with their searches or explorations for yet better knowledge of things.

As for your question, how I eliminate possibilities. It is done by scientists to solve their problems, It is done by police in solving its cases, it is done by courts for solving their cases, it is done by doctors to solve their cases, it is done by engineers to solved their problems, it is done by ourselves every day etc etc. In practical life in all such matters where this method is applicable it is used successfully and so life carries on. For example, a person has to cook a meal so one makes decision by using process of elimination. One looks at what is available and what is not available. What sort of meal was cooked before and would it be good idea to do the same again or not, does a person like a particular meal or not etc etc. Each and every decision we make does have elements that need to be eliminated to arrive at the final decision about something. This is how fallacies need to be defined and applied not your way which in our case are impractical altogether.

It seems to me your whole argument about God and revelation of God rests upon the point that first we must know God for sure and then accept anything about God from God. You fail to explain how that is even possible for us to do so without getting in the argument the revelation of God. This is why atheists dismiss the God argument based upon revelation as circular argument. My point here is that it is not a circular argument because the revelation itself points out evidences and puts forth explanations and on that basis proves what it claims about. It will be a circular argument if the revelation just claimed existence of God and did not point out or put forth any evidences or explanations for its claims about God. This is why I say you want to go about issues the long way or the impossible way which is the exact opposite of process of elimination method because elimination method is quick and short way for reaching a conclusion.

You simply want to avoid studying the quran as evidence and proof for everything God related. You do not want to know how the quran and the existing creation together can prove existence of God beyond any reasonable doubt. On the other hand I am saying, this is the way God has chosen to express himself so let us check it out. What is wrong with that? Absolutely nothing at all because all we want to know is if there is a God or not and if there is one what he wants from us human beings. All we need to see is, does all this somehow fit together properly or not and the issue could be decided that way fully and for good.

You on the other hand with all your scientist and philosopher friends can never reach a conclusion about God ever no matter whatever your explanations are about it. It is because had God created us to search out God all by ourselves then he needed to give us much more abilities than the ones we already have been given. Because they are not enough for going about this issue that way. You need to become aware of the fact that we humans can never use any way or method or technique or formula which is impossible for us to use or the way it is impossible for to use and this is the error you are committing by applying wrong definitions to things or by applying them wrongly.

As I already explained for you repeatedly that if you will take the very long routes or the impossible routes for solving our facing problems which need immediate solutions then what is the point of such exercises? To me solving the problem of proper way of life for humanity is of utmost vital importance because look at what is going on in the human world worldwide. So we cannot afford to carry on living like this and look for things about which we are not at all sure and can never be sure going about them your way.

Here is my question for you to answer, what do you think way of life is or what it has to be about and why it is of such vital importance to God that he had to reveal his book for us?

Moreover I asked you to educate us about what human language is, where it has come from or how it evolved or developed or was used or is used today? Where did we get words from and where did their meanings come from or what processes or mechanisms are involved in all this? I am asking this question of you because you seem to be an expert on the quranic text. You claim all sorts of things about it. So I want to know what do you know about all these things that I am asking you about.

regards and all the best.
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Only after learning it from scientists. It’s a very specific method that did not exist few hundred years ago.

Dear vitamin c, again you are looking at things wrong way. If we are born scientist and that is the way we learned each and everything in our lives then how could we discover something that we have used to discover? Is this not a case of you running in a circle. If the method did not exist how did we use it?

If you will explain how human language came about this issue too will become clear for you, unless you cannot explain it and you want me to explain things about human language for you.

Regards and all the best.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Dear vitamin c, again you are looking at things wrong way. If we are born scientist and that is the way we learned each and everything in our lives then how could we discover something that we have used to discover? Is this not a case of you running in a circle. If the method did not exist how did we use it?

If you will explain how human language came about this issue too will become clear for you, unless you cannot explain it and you want me to explain things about human language for you.

Regards and all the best.

You are confusing science and scientific method.

Science just means knowledge and scientific method is different. It’s a very specific method which was developed just a few centuries ago and no child is born knowing the scientific method they have to be taught in school.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
You simply want to avoid studying the quran

I have studied the Quran and there is nothing in it. It doesnt have instructions on the pillars of Islam. Punishments for homosexuality and adultury cannot be found. Nothing about Muhammad can be found in the Quran, who was he, where he was from, who is his family what he did, there is nothing.

Most of the book is wasted on emotional blackmailing you by threatening you with gruesome punishments like burning you if you dont believe it, or bribing you with round breasted houris if you do believe.

Quran is an incomplete luri langri kitab. There is no sense or structure in it, one verse will talk about ants and the next verse right after it will talk about Musa.

Then there are verses which will waste 4-5 lines to make the sentences rhyme instead of just making the point in 1 line. Its a badly written, bizarre and childish book. Stop wasting your time on it.
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
In less than 5 sentences tell me what is process of elimination?
You are confusing science and scientific method.

Science just means knowledge and scientific method is different. It’s a very specific method which was developed just a few centuries ago and no child is born knowing the scientific method they have to be taught in school.
I have studied the Quran and there is nothing in it. It doesnt have instructions on the pillars of Islam. Punishments for homosexuality and adultury cannot be found. Nothing about Muhammad can be found in the Quran, who was he, where he was from, who is his family what he did, there is nothing.

Most of the book is wasted on emotional blackmailing you by threatening you with gruesome punishments like burning you if you dont believe it, or bribing you with round breasted houris if you do believe.

Quran is an incomplete luri langri kitab. There is no sense or structure in it, one verse will talk about ants and the next verse right after it will talk about Musa.

Then there are verses which will waste 4-5 lines to make the sentences rhyme instead of just making the point in 1 line. Its a badly written, bizarre and childish book. Stop wasting your time on it.

Dear vitamin c, I told you what it is and where it is used. Scientist use it to isolate an issue in order to investigate it further, Pilot projects by government are used to look at issues in isolation to see if they work and if the do then they expand them countrywide. Police use it to eliminate other possibilities that are seen to be irrelevant to investigate a case further. For example, if someone comes across a dead body of person and there is no witness there as to how the person came to his death then investigation starts from a standard procedure in mind eg they look at all practical possibilities where by a person may come to his death. It could be murder or suicide or accidental or natural death etc etc. They look for clues and if they do not find any clues for murder then they eliminate murder possibility. They look for clues for suicide but if they do not find any clues to that end either then they also rule out that possibility as well and so on and so forth. This is process of elimination or isolation in practice.

If one has some medical problem and one goes to one's doctor, the doctor asks one what is wrong with him instead of putting on him all his machines to check him out fully to see what is wrong with him. By asking what is wrong with him, doctor is isolating the problem to save his time and energy and gets to the point quicker.

When you call an engineer for your broken down tv set, he also asks you what is wrong with it? He may ask, is your set completely dead or is there sound and no picture or is there picture but no sound or is picture rolling up and down or side wise and so on and so forth. So by obvious clues like these he gets the idea what is most likely the area of fault. Leave all these things aside just look at how we cook nice dishes every day. How did we come to know how to do nice cooking? By scientific method ie we experimented and learned how to cook nice food.

All these points prove beyond a shadow of doubt that there are only and only three methods open to us for our learning things. The forth method is not open to us but open to God ie revelation. We basically learn by way of experimenting with things and that we do from the day we are born. We learn how to use our own body parts and that is why we learn how to use our eyes and ears, noses and tongues or sensitivity. This is how we learn how to use our hands and feet. This is why all creatures great or small can only do what they are born with. if something does not see things with eyes then we cannot make it see by giving it eyes because it is not born with faculty of sight. If we put legs on a snake it will not be able to walk because it is not born with that capability.

We can only make use of things with usable capability of which we are born. If a person is born with capability of seeing but has faulty eyes then if we give that person working eyes then that person will be able to see.

Nonetheless you can see your definition of process of elimination has nothing at all to do with practical life and that is why you cannot apply it where it does not belong. We cannot keep a dead body there for eternity to keep looking for what other possibilities may be there or may come about in the future. So start looking at things from practical point of view otherwise you are talking nonsense.

What the quran has new in it, you cannot come to know it till you come to know things about human language which I asked you to explain but you are running away from that. I already explained that for you in another thread on this forum. Shows how much attention you pay to what others try to help you understand. You just like to argue for sake of arguments, not for learning.

The quran is given by God to people for a purpose and it is fully capable of serving that purpose but people like you who like talking nonsense instead of learning things see no purpose and see no information as to how the quran serves its stated purpose. Remember when it comes to guidance it is the person oneself only who can guide oneself and others can only help in the process. You too will be able to guide yourself when penny drops till then carry on as you wish. Don't worry you are not alone in this terrible situation there are many others as well.

In future if you will not explain things about the human language that I asked you for then that will be the only reply for you from me. So better tell me things about human language or I will not let you to talk nonsense about the quran. A person who has no needed sense about human language has no right to talk nonsense about the quran. To talk about the quran one has to show sense or one must be prepared to learn what one has no idea about otherwise one is only creating trouble and that cannot be allowed. Sensible discussion and debates are fine but senseless talk is recipe for a fight.

So either you explain things you know about human language and if you do not know then I can explain them here again for you then in that light we can debate over the quranic text sensibly or to keep the peace you stop talking nonsense about the quran. If you have any issues or problems with other people who claim to be muslims yet believe and do all sorts of nonsense in the name of the quran then that is between you and them and not between you and the quran because you do not know even the abc about the quran and are equally foolish as the rest who talk nonsense. I have no time to entertain such people.

If you have any other best methods than the one's given by me for getting us through life better then show me right here. Otherwise just be quiet and do your homework first before debating with others over things about which you know very little.

From your replies I gather you have no idea at all what proof and proving is about that is why you end up dismissing the quran. You presume the quran does not point to any internal and external evidences and it contains no explanations about things but in actual fact you have no any clue at all as to what the quran actually contains because you have not learned how to decode the message in the quran. You can never decode message in the quran till you learn how to do so. This is why I am asking you about things regarding human language so that you could prove me wrong about your knowledge about the quranic contents. Till you do things I am asking for, you cannot prove anything at all otherwise than what i have stated. Not only you but no human being can. To learn to read and write we all must start from alphabet so to learn to decode the quran we must learn what human language is about and how God uses it.

Meanwhile regards and all the best.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
they look at all practical possibilities where by a person may come to his death. It could be murder or suicide or accidental or natural death etc etc.

Yes but that is different from what you are doing. They only consider natural possibilities. No detective ever thinks that a ghost kills someone or an angel or god struck him down. Supernatural things such as God are not even considered as possibilities.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
We cannot keep a dead body there for eternity to keep looking for what other possibilities may be there or may come about in the future. So start looking at things from practical point of view otherwise you are talking nonsense.

Thats why your process of elimination is impractical. You can rule out non possibilities such as God killing him or a ghost killing him but you cannot rule out natural possibilities until you have evidence. And even if you rule out all the possibilities as there is only one left, it still doesn’t mean the one that is left is the right one.
The real way to solve the murder is to stud the evidence and find the reason by following evidence not by elimination.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
In future if you will not explain things about the human language that I asked you for then that will be the only reply for you from me.

We wouldn’t be having this conversation if your God didn’t pick such an underdeveloped and ambiguous language that neither Europeans, nor Indians nor Asians could understand and only few tribes in the desert could understand.

And then he reveals a book which has no information in it, just repeated ramblings copied from books of Jews Christians and other pagan myths, bad poetry And in a time where 99% of people cannot read or write.

A Baba came 1400 years ago and fooled all of you enjoyed his life with 10 wife’s and many concubines while you here defending a book which literally has nothing in it, to prove something superstitious with bad and fallacious arguments.
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Yes but that is different from what you are doing. They only consider natural possibilities. No detective ever thinks that a ghost kills someone or an angel or god struck him down. Supernatural things such as God are not even considered as possibilities.

Dear vitamin c, this world is though an act of God but God has made it to work on basis of physical cause and effect chain regardless we manage to discover the natural cause or not for an effect or phenomenon. This is why we do not need to take into account supernatural causes as you say. This is why we only need to consider naturally possible causes.

Regards and all the best.
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Thats why your process of elimination is impractical. You can rule out non possibilities such as God killing him or a ghost killing him but you cannot rule out natural possibilities until you have evidence. And even if you rule out all the possibilities as there is only one left, it still doesn’t mean the one that is left is the right one.
The real way to solve the murder is to stud the evidence and find the reason by following evidence not by elimination.

I was not speaking greek dear vitamic c when I was talking about methods and processes involved that is exactly what I said, so stop being silly and read my post again.

regards and all the best.
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
We wouldn’t be having this conversation if your God didn’t pick such an underdeveloped and ambiguous language that neither Europeans, nor Indians nor Asians could understand and only few tribes in the desert could understand.

And then he reveals a book which has no information in it, just repeated ramblings copied from books of Jews Christians and other pagan myths, bad poetry And in a time where 99% of people cannot read or write.

A Baba came 1400 years ago and fooled all of you enjoyed his life with 10 wife’s and many concubines while you here defending a book which literally has nothing in it, to prove something superstitious with bad and fallacious arguments.

Dear vitamin c, regardless of what you believe about the quran I still want to know your explanation for things about human language. So will you please go ahead and explain? It is because on that basis I will show you some stuff that you do not have any idea about. So kindly stop wasting time and get on with it.

Regards and all the best.
 
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