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pakipunjabi

MPA (400+ posts)
I would like to add that Sufism is nothing but a mixture of Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Neoplatonism, Kalam and Phissophy. If you do a bit of research and compare various beliefs and practices of Sufism with the mentioned theological systems you will know the real face of sufism.
In Islam our beliefs and deeds are based on the concept of Tawheed and without Tawheed all deeds are in vein. In Sufism Tawheed is something which could be compromised either by beliefs or deeds (practice), by making a taaweel or by misinterpretation, intentionally or unintentionally.
The idea of Sufism flourished predominantly in the Indian subcontinent, parts of Turkey, Iraq, Iran and some parts of North Africa because the basic ideology was already present in these parts of the word. In Hinduism the idea of God incarnation (Hamawoost) was already there, so the Sufis had no hesitation to accept it and just named it Wahdatul Wajood which is a major shirk and disrespect to Allah S.W.T. Similarly Qawwalee, music and doing strange things was also adopted by Sufis from Hindu Bhajan, sufi dance and samaa was adopted from Hindu dance in front of an idol, exaggeration prophets and saints so that their respect and authority becomes equal to that of Allah S.W.T or even sometimes exceeds was adopted from Christianity, the idea of harsh practices to control Nafs for which there is no proof from Quran and Sunnah came from Christianity. The idea of living saints while they are dead in their graves and believing that they can interfere the system of the universe controlled by Allah S.W.T or believing that saints or dead people can help, or bless someone is from Hindu concept of sayeen baba, uncountable devi, devta kissing the thumbs or nails during taking the name of Prophet Muhammad S.A.W is exactly making cross while taking the name of Jesus A.S. This is a topic on which extensive research can be done.


I know it bro, I was also on the same page when I was in pakistan like this so-called modern fakir. But when I met arabs from middle east and north africa and tried to compare the so-called islamic practices that are prevalent in pakistan with that of middle east. I was shocked that how distorted form of islam is prevalent in pakistan because it has its roots in iranian majoos sufism. Just check any branch of Sufism , its ultimate origin will always be somewhere in or near iran, never ever in arabia. That speaks for itself what sufism is all about.
 

Unicorn

Banned
hahahahahahahahahahah [hilar][hilar] .look who finally pulls his head out of all the satti...I'm glad you've learnt your lesson after that ..cuz you havent debated me since then ...i understand you use the word "loss" to hide your paranoi but thats okay..this is exactly what people like you do after a humiliating defeat (bigsmile) ..Just like people who once regarded the taliban as enemies are now calling them "Not enemies" ...lol lol lol ...This is what people like you usually do after getting a good whopping.

Oh and by the way ..if you ever feel like "making me lose" again just message me and i will be there to kick your a** again !..Have fun - crossdresser the joghnii[hilar]

I am not going to fight you on this post I am in a good mood. I will cheer you on while you fight with Wahabis.
 

modern.fakir

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Thats Like a good boy Unicorn ...thats exactly what i expected from you after the whopping you recieved. Had you learnt your lesson before you would have avoided my wrath altogether...But anyways ..all's well that ends well in Joghini [hilar][hilar]

I am not going to fight you on this post I am in a good mood. I will cheer you on while you fight with Wahabis.
 

moahhid

MPA (400+ posts)
I am not going to fight you on this post I am in a good mood. I will cheer you on while you fight with Wahabis.

No worries, your excitement will end soon. I will back off from saying anything to the Sufis if you are so happy with the debate. Although I have many issues with Sufis but they are far..far better than you. At least they believe in Allah S.W.T and our Beloved Prophet S.A.W.
 
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Unicorn

Banned
I would like to add that Sufism is nothing but a mixture of Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Neoplatonism, Kalam and Phissophy. If you do a bit of research and compare various beliefs and practices of Sufism with the mentioned theological systems you will know the real face of sufism.
In Islam our beliefs and deeds are based on the concept of Tawheed and without Tawheed all deeds are in vein. In Sufism Tawheed is something which could be compromised either by beliefs or deeds (practice), by making a taaweel or by misinterpretation, intentionally or unintentionally.
The idea of Sufism flourished predominantly in the Indian subcontinent, parts of Turkey, Iraq, Iran and some parts of North Africa because the basic ideology was already present in these parts of the word. In Hinduism the idea of God incarnation (Hamawoost) was already there, so the Sufis had no hesitation to accept it and just named it Wahdatul Wajood which is a major shirk and disrespect to Allah S.W.T. Similarly Qawwalee, music and doing strange things was also adopted by Sufis from Hindu Bhajan, sufi dance and samaa was adopted from Hindu dance in front of an idol, exaggeration prophets and saints so that their respect and authority becomes equal to that of Allah S.W.T or even sometimes exceeds was adopted from Christianity, the idea of harsh practices to control Nafs for which there is no proof from Quran and Sunnah came from Christianity. The idea of living saints while they are dead in their graves and believing that they can interfere the system of the universe controlled by Allah S.W.T or believing that saints or dead people can help, or bless someone is from Hindu concept of sayeen baba, uncountable devi, devta kissing the thumbs or nails during taking the name of Prophet Muhammad S.A.W is exactly making cross while taking the name of Jesus A.S. This is a topic on which extensive research can be done.

Can you quote anything from Bulleh Shah's poetry, there is lots of it, that talks about god reincarnation, dancing and the other stuff you mentioned. Let me tell you you can't because its not there. You are only going by what you have been told and by watching people who bow down to their shrines and engage in dancing and singing his poetry.
 

Unicorn

Banned
No worries, your excitement will end soon. I will back off from saying anything to the Sufis if you are so happy with the debate. Although I have many issues with Sufis but they are far..far… better than you. At least they believe in Allah S.W.T and our Beloved Prophet S.A.W.

No, to the contrary I encourage debate with arguments, knowledge and facts. I like to know how you feel about other " schools of thoughts"
 

Unicorn

Banned
Thats Like a good boy Unicorn ...thats exactly what i expected from you after the whopping you recieved. Had you learnt your lesson before you would have avoided my wrath altogether...But anyways ..all's well that ends well in Joghini [hilar][hilar]

You can try to provoke me as much as you can but I am not fighting:)
 

moahhid

MPA (400+ posts)
No, to the contrary I encourage debate with arguments, knowledge and facts. I like to know how you feel about other " schools of thoughts"

If you are really interested read Quran and sunnah of the Prophet S.A.W you will know what my school of thoughts is?
 

Unicorn

Banned
If you are really interested read Quran and sunnah of the Prophet S.A.W you will know what my school of thoughts is?

I have read the first five chapters I have a Quran in my library.

But for now back up your allegations against Bulleh Shah by quoting from his poetry not his life story. A man should be able to back up what he says.
 

modern.fakir

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Here Unicorn since your being so ansy about it ...let me help out a brother(moahhid) here...

Makkay gayaan, gal mukdee naheen
Pawain sow sow jummay parrh aaeey

Going to Makkah is not the ultimate
Even if hundreds of prayers are offered

-
Ganga gayaan, gal mukdee naheen
Pawain sow sow gotay khaeeay

Going to River Ganges is not the ultimate
Even if hundreds of cleansing (Baptisms) are done

-
Gaya gayaan gal mukdee naheen
Pawain sow sow pand parrhaeeay

Going to Gaya is not the ultimate
Even if hundreds of worships are done

-
Bulleh Shah gal taeeyon mukdee
Jadon May nu dillon gawaeeay

Bulleh Shah the ultimate is
When the “I” is removed from the heart!



(bigsmile)(bigsmile) So it all Starts by Controlling the Self or "Ihsan" :)​


I have read the first five chapters I have a Quran in my library.

But for now back up your allegations against Bulleh Shah by quoting from his poetry not his life story. A man should be able to back up what he says.
 

modern.fakir

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
This is exactly what my Akka pbuh told the sahabis although My Akka pbuh is the Imam of Mursaleen and No Auliya Allah Ra can equal HIm. so lets read about an advanced spiritual state in Hadith Format :)

It is in Hadith - Narrated by Ibn Omer, Abu Huraira and Anas
(رضئ اللھ تعالی عنہم اجمعین). Prophet Mohammad (صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم) kept fast after fast, sometimes 5 days in a row. Sahabah tried to emulate (follow his practice), but realized it was not possible. Prophet Mohammad - صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم told his companions, ‘I am not like you. I live with my Sustainer (Rabbul Aalameen) who feeds and provides me with drink. (Bukhari, Muslim). <====== SubhanAllah (bigsmile) (fidaka ammi was abbu Ya Rasullah) ...this is the beauty of my Akka pbuh ...he beautifully mentions the truth !!:)

Three things are established from the above Hadith.
(1) He is not like any normal human being. He is placed at an exalted state ‘Maqaam-e-Mahmood’ as described in verseأَن يَبْعَثَكَ رَبُّكَ مَقَامًا مَّحْمُودًا ( Meaning - Allah - سبحانہ و تعا لیwill raise you to the highest place of praise and glory ) (Al-Isra - 79).

(2) Bodily he lives in this world, but spiritually he lives with His Sustainer.


(3) Allah (سبحانہ و تعا لی) provides him with special spiritual food and drink.

So you see Ihsan or self control is integral and important part of religion !:)
 
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Unicorn

Banned
Here Unicorn since your being so ansy about it ...let me help out a brother(moahhid) here...

Makkay gayaan, gal mukdee naheen
Pawain sow sow jummay parrh aaeey

Going to Makkah is not the ultimate
Even if hundreds of prayers are offered

-
Ganga gayaan, gal mukdee naheen
Pawain sow sow gotay khaeeay

Going to River Ganges is not the ultimate
Even if hundreds of cleansing (Baptisms) are done

-
Gaya gayaan gal mukdee naheen
Pawain sow sow pand parrhaeeay

Going to Gaya is not the ultimate
Even if hundreds of worships are done

-
Bulleh Shah gal taeeyon mukdee
Jadon May nu dillon gawaeeay

Bulleh Shah the ultimate is
When the “I” is removed from the heart!



(bigsmile)(bigsmile) So it all Starts by Controlling the Self or "Ihsan" :)​

Very nice poem but you have not helped him I want him to show me where Bulleh Shah promotes God incarnation, dancing bowing to Mazars and Darghas. You are welcome to help.
 

modern.fakir

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Those claims may hold some weight for a very tiny group of people who blow things out of context. As far as visiting graves and hugging and kissing them then their are ahadith which claim to talk about so :

(14) It is in Hadith - Yahya (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) related from Imam Maalik (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) that he heard that AIi Ibn Abi Talib (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) used to rest his head on Graves and lie on them [meaning holding the grave with his stretched hands while his head, entire face and chest is rested on the Grave]. Maalik (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) said, "As far as we can see, it is only forbidden to sit on the Graves to relieve oneself." (Muatta' Imm Malik - Book #16, Hadith #16.11.34)


Very nice poem but you have not helped him I want him to show me where Bulleh Shah promotes God incarnation, dancing bowing to Mazars and Darghas. You are welcome to help.
 

moahhid

MPA (400+ posts)
i
Very nice poem but you have not helped him I want him to show me where Bulleh Shah promotes God incarnation, dancing bowing to Mazars and Darghas. You are welcome to help.

First of all I never said anything about bulle shah neither I named a specific person I don’t know where did you get it from. I have pointed out some concepts of Sufis which are not from Islam and Wahdatul Wajood is one of such concepts and is deep rooted among most Sufis. This idea was mainly advocated by ibne arabi who was the Big Sheikh of Sufis. This wahdatul wajood is the same concept of God incarnation of Hinduism. Now if bulle shah does’t have it in his peoptry that is very good, he may be a good Muslim then.
 
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moahhid

MPA (400+ posts)
Those claims may hold some weight for a very tiny group of people who blow things out of context. As far as visiting graves and hugging and kissing them then their are ahadith which claim to talk about so :

(14) It is in Hadith - Yahya (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) related from Imam Maalik (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) that he heard that AIi Ibn Abi Talib (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) used to rest his head on Graves and lie on them [meaning holding the grave with his stretched hands while his head, entire face and chest is rested on the Grave]. Maalik (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) said, "As far as we can see, it is only forbidden to sit on the Graves to relieve oneself." (Muatta' Imm Malik - Book #16, Hadith #16.11.34)

Brother modern fakir. As pointed out by unicorn he is very excited and looking forward to our fight and I said earlier I am not going to do that. The hadith you mentioned does not justify supplicating to graves and believing that the dead person can harm or benefit any human.
It look to me that if the chain of narration is strong it may be the individual action of Ali R.A as it is not clear from what you have mentioned that if Prophet Muhammad S.A.W approved it or not and if it has been done in the presence of the prophet S.A.W? You know that a Hadith/sunnah is the saying, actions or approval(s) of the prophet S.A.W. I say even if Ali R.A did this, it does not show he supplicated to the gaves or did what majority of us is beleiving and doing now with the grves.

The engraved people were also humans and Allah S.W.T brought them to this world for a test like all other humans. Their times is finished they can’t do anything for us. We should directly call Allah S.W.T and believe me brother He S.W.T can hear us directly and only He can respond to our calls. He S.W.T does not need anybody to hear our request He S.W.T understand all languages and what’s in our hearts and minds. Only He S.W.T can bless people and can benefit or harm people. No one can claim that he has any authority on His creation. He S.W.T has uncountable number of angels and other creation which we don’t know. He S.W.T can fulfil our needs without involving a saint or prophet or an angel. And remember He S.W.T does not like us to call other than Him S.W.T
 
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hans

Banned
Most of kashmiri muslims in kashmir valley follow the so-called sufi sect of mr. mir waiz umer farooq, this sufi sect is the biggest evil implanted by iranians in islam over the last millenia, it creates hollow muslims without any dedication towards islamic faith and identity, the same is the story in punjab and sindh.

Bhai Punjabi Taliban, Let me know where do you get your in-lighted information from?

Iran a Century back was called Persia. there was no concept of Iran. Major part of Now what we call as Iran was in control of Turkish Empire.
If we take your Theory into account how would you explain Shia population of Saudi Arabia, Yemen, or Lebanon or Syria?
 

moahhid

MPA (400+ posts)
Those claims may hold some weight for a very tiny group of people who blow things out of context. As far as visiting graves and hugging and kissing them then their are ahadith which claim to talk about so :

(14) It is in Hadith - Yahya (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) related from Imam Maalik (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) that he heard that AIi Ibn Abi Talib (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) used to rest his head on Graves and lie on them [meaning holding the grave with his stretched hands while his head, entire face and chest is rested on the Grave]. Maalik (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) said, "As far as we can see, it is only forbidden to sit on the Graves to relieve oneself." (Muatta' Imm Malik - Book #16, Hadith #16.11.34)


Sahih Al-Bukhair Volume 1, Book 8, Hadith # 419
Narrated 'Aisha (RAA) Um Habiba (RAA) and Um Salama (RAA) mentioned about a church they had seen in Ethiopia in which there were pictures. They told the Prophet (SAW) about it, on which he said, "If any religious man dies amongst those people they would build a place of worship at his grave and make these pictures in it. They will be the worst creature in the sight of Allah on the Day of Resurrection."

Sahih Muslim Book 4, Hadith # 2116
Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah (RAA) Rasulullah (SAW) forbade that the graves should be plastered, or they be used as sitting places (for the people), or a building should be built over them.

Sahih Al-Bkhari Volume 1, Book 8, Hadith # 427
Narrated 'Aisha (RAA) and 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas (RAA) When the last moment of the life of Allah's Apostle (SAW) came he started putting his 'Khamisa' on his face and when he felt hot and short of breath he took it off his face and said, "May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets." The Prophet (SAW) was warning (Muslims) of what those had done.

Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 8, Hadith # 428
Narrated Abu Huraira (RAA) Rasulullah (SAW) said, "May Allah's curse be on the Jews for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets."

Sahih Muslim Book 4, Number 1083
Narrated Jundub ibn Abdullah (RAA) "I heard from the Apostle of Allah (SAW) five days before his death and he said: I stand acquitted before Allah that I took anyone of you as friend, for Allah has taken me as His friend, as he took Ibrahim as His friend. Had I taken any one of my Ummah as a friend, I would have taken AbuBakr as a friend. Beware of those who preceded you and used to take the graves of their prophets and righteous men as places of worship, but you must not take graves as mosques;I forbid you to do that.

Sahih Muslim Book 4, Hadith # 2121
Narrated AbuMarthad al-Ghanawi (RAA) Allah's Messenger (SAW) said: Do not sit on the graves and do not pray facing towards them.

 

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