Salat in the Quran

[asifukp]

I wouldn't be a Muslim or believe in Allah and his prophets if I questioned the validity of the Quran.

100% agree with you, But the way the Holy Quran reached us, itself it is the best form of Hadees and there are verses that direct us to find the answers in authentic Hadees or pervious scriptures e.g The Holy Quran mentioned(2:197) "that the months of Hajj is known", but how do we know which months are they?

My understanding is that, because the Salat and Hajj was originally instructed through Prophet Ibrahim and Ismail to make Maqam-e-Ibrahim a place for Salat, Rakoo, Sujood, itikaf and Tawaf for the people visiting Masjid-e-Haram.
(2:197)
وَإِذْ جَعَلْنَا ٱلْبَيْتَ مَثَابَةًۭ لِّلنَّاسِ وَأَمْنًۭا وَٱتَّخِذُوا۟ مِن مَّقَامِ إِبْرَٰهِـۧمَ مُصَلًّۭى ۖ وَعَهِدْنَآ إِلَىٰٓ إِبْرَٰهِـۧمَ وَإِسْمَـٰعِيلَ أَن طَهِّرَا بَيْتِىَ لِلطَّآئِفِينَ وَٱلْعَـٰكِفِينَ وَٱلرُّكَّعِ ٱلسُّجُودِ ١٢٥

And when We made the House (at Makka) a resort for mankind and sanctuary, (saying): Take as your place of worship the place where Abraham stood (to pray). And We imposed a duty upon Abraham and Ishmael, (saying): Purify My house for those who go around and those who meditate therein and those who bow down and prostrate themselves (in worship).
— English Translation (Pickthall)

اور جب ہم نے خانہٴ کعبہ کو لوگوں کے لیے جمع ہونے اور امن پانے کی جگہ مقرر کیا اور (حکم دیا کہ) جس مقام پر ابراہیم کھڑے ہوئے تھے، اس کو نماز کی جگہ بنا لو۔ اور ابراہیم اور اسمٰعیل کو کہا کہ طواف کرنے والوں اور اعتکاف کرنے والوں اور رکوع کرنے والوں اور سجدہ کرنے والوں کے لیے میرے گھر کو پاک صاف رکھا کرو

so that tradition carried on till the time of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) in some form and eventually corrected by Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) but again we have to relay on authentic Hadees, previous scriptures and history to verify.

P.S, I hate molvies more then you mate, I believe most of them are the true enemy of Islam, I always cross check them and their source of information.

 

[Citizen X]

But the way the Holy Quran reached us, itself it is the best form of Hadees

Strongly disagree, the Quran reached us directly from Allah through his Prophet and he confirmed and verified it and passed it on to 100s if not 1000s of people in his lifetime and his presence. Unlike the so called "authentic" hadith which was NOT sanctioned by Allah or the Prophet when 200 years later someone claims, he heard, x say he heard from y that he heard from z so on and so forth going back dozens of people that he saw or heard the prophet saw him do or say this or that. Look up the game chinese whispers or telephone. I wouldn't buy an old used washing machine on this basis let alone base my faith and more importantly my akhira on such unreliable hearsay. Hearsay which even todays courts has 0 legal value.

so that tradition carried on till the time of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) in some form and eventually corrected by Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)

But what proof of these traditions do you have other than your unauthentic, unreliable, full of contradiction etc etc hadith by these imams.

we have to relay on authentic Hadees, previous scriptures and history to verify.

When you say things like you are basically denying the Quran ( and in turn Allah, because the Quran is his word )when its says it is a complete book with all details, written in easy to understand and clear Arabic.

So do you believe and accept what Allahs tells you or do you say no Allah forgot to mention 99% of Islam in the Quran as practiced by majority of the Muslims today so we need to rely on books written by defeated persian babas centuries later.

I hate molvies more then you mate

Apparently not enough since you still make excuses for, believe in and practice teachings of Moulvi Bhukari, Moulvi Tirmidi, Moulvi Hanbal, Moulvi Abu Dawood, Moulvi Shafi, Moulvi Abu Hanafa etc etc

 

[asifukp]

Strongly disagree, the Quran reached us directly from Allah through his Prophet and he confirmed and verified it and passed it on to 100s if not 1000s of people in his lifetime and his presence.

How do you know this? are you among those 100s or 1000s people? have you ever seen any of the original copy that given to those people by Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) what's your proof?

Unlike the so called "authentic" hadith which was NOT sanctioned by Allah or the Prophet when 200 years later someone claims, he heard, x say he heard from y that he heard from z so on and so forth going back dozens of people that he saw or heard the prophet saw him do or say this or that.

agree, that is why you can't accept all of them true but you can't deny all of them wrong.
otherwise you can't find a way to perform most of the worships and has to provide you own source with proof for every single type of worship mentioned in Quran as I quoted the verse (2:197) which ones are the months of Hajj? Salat, Rakoo, Sujood, itikaf and Tawaf?

So do you believe and accept what Allahs tells you or do you say no Allah forgot to mention 99% of Islam in the Quran as practiced by majority of the Muslims today so we need to rely on books written by defeated persian babas centuries later.

Allah orders you in Quran to obey Allah and his Messenger, so how do you obey Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) without knowing about his life and how he practiced Islam?

۞ يَـٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا۟ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ وَلَا تُبْطِلُوٓا۟ أَعْمَـٰلَكُمْ ٣٣
O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the messenger, and render not your actions vain.
— English Translation (Pickthall)
مومنو! خدا کا ارشاد مانو اور پیغمبر کی فرمانبرداری کرو اور اپنے عملوں کو ضائع نہ ہونے دو

Apparently not enough since you still make excuses for, believe in and practice teachings of Moulvi Bhukari, Moulvi Tirmidi, Moulvi Hanbal, Moulvi Abu Dawood, Moulvi Shafi, Moulvi Abu Hanafa etc etc

none of the molvies you mentioned were Arabs, they travelled to Arab states, did their research, compiled whatever they found and observed, which must contain right and wrong information, that is why you have to cross check their claims with other available sources and make sure its not against the spirit of The Holy Quran in any shape or form.

As far my hate of molvies are concerned,I am blocked on social media by most the molvies and Peers of different sects of Islam and even Christens specially Jehovah witnesses(spent one year debating with them face to face and proofed all their claims wrong form their Bible/sources) I only asked them to provide the source/reference of their claims version of Islam/religion.

(Quran 2:111)
قُلْ هَاتُوا۟ بُرْهَـٰنَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَـٰدِقِينَ
Bring your proof (of what ye state) if ye are truthful.

 

[Citizen X]

How do you know this?

Because that was the Prophets main job as mentioned in the Quran.

have you ever seen any of the original copy

The Birmingham manuscript.

but you can't deny all of them wrong.

Better not to meddle with stuff and base your beliefs, faith, this life and the hereafter on such sketchy unreliable stuff. Would you believe in the Quran and it authenticity if you there was something fishy in even one small surah or even a few verses in it?

otherwise you can't find a way to perform most of the worships and has to provide you own source with proof for every single type of worship mentioned in Quran

Stop trying to make excuses for your hadith. The Quran is complete BUT you need the hadith. Can you see what a huge oxymoron that statement is. And as I said previously mentioned in my post, when you adopt this tired old debunked statement then basically you are denying the Quran, because you don't believe what is say. You are putting Bhukari, Tirmidi, Abu Dawood etc etc on par with the Quran in very simple terms committing shirk thats why I had to coin the term hadithist mushriks.

so how do you obey Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)

First of all the ayat is quoted massively out of context and those verses are talking about most the munafiqs. This is typical SOP for people trying to enforce their hadithism. Anyways.

You follow the Prophet by the following the one job he was assigned, to deliver the Quran to mankind. If you follow the Quran then you are following the prophet, as the Quran says it self.

none of the molvies you mentioned were Arabs

Thats why I call them defeated Persians. Who had a massive axe to grind against the Arabs, you defeated their centuries old Persian empire and that to losing at the hand of rag tag bediouns, so they had to get back at them somehow. You can't attack the Quran so they go for the next best thing. i.e make up stories and then associate it with the Prophet.

that is why you have to cross check their claims with other available sources

Why? Who are these defeated persians that one should waste so much efforts behind them? Specially when the Quran itself says that it is complete and fully detailed and you don't need any other hadith, other than the Quran and you don't need any other sunnah other than sunnat-ul-Allah and that if Allah had wanted and if all the oceans in the world were made of ink they would not suffice for Allah's commands.

And talking about cross check and claims, you know, your precious sahih bhukari fails miserably the test of being classified as sahih by the standards set by your own hadith sciences and muhadithseen? Same with Musnad Hanbal. No one in the desi world talks about it though, either they dont know or just trying to brush it under the carpet. But there is discussion regarding this in the Arab world and has been going on for a while now.

Then who are these Persians who centuries later "saw the prophet in his dreams" and started to collect and compile hadith? On whose authority? Who sanctioned it? Not Allah and not the Prophet.

You can do as much verbal gymnastic and jump through as many mental hoops but you cannot justify hadith in shape form and manner.

Have you even read any real hadith, that you are defeding it and making so many excuses for it? I've read the entire 9 volumes of Sahih Bhukari and quite a lot of hadith from the other books of the sahih sitta

 

[Wake up Pak]

How do you know this? are you among those 100s or 1000s people? have you ever seen any of the original copy that given to those people by Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) what's your proof?


agree, that is why you can't accept all of them true but you can't deny all of them wrong.
otherwise you can't find a way to perform most of the worships and has to provide you own source with proof for every single type of worship mentioned in Quran as I quoted the verse (2:197) which ones are the months of Hajj? Salat, Rakoo, Sujood, itikaf and Tawaf?


Allah orders you in Quran to obey Allah and his Messenger, so how do you obey Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) without knowing about his life and how he practiced Islam?

۞ يَـٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا۟ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ وَلَا تُبْطِلُوٓا۟ أَعْمَـٰلَكُمْ ٣٣
O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the messenger, and render not your actions vain.
— English Translation (Pickthall)
مومنو! خدا کا ارشاد مانو اور پیغمبر کی فرمانبرداری کرو اور اپنے عملوں کو ضائع نہ ہونے دو




none of the molvies you mentioned were Arabs, they travelled to Arab states, did their research, compiled whatever they found and observed, which must contain right and wrong information, that is why you have to cross check their claims with other available sources and make sure its not against the spirit of The Holy Quran in any shape or form.

As far my hate of molvies are concerned,I am blocked on social media by most the molvies and Peers of different sects of Islam and even Christens specially Jehovah witnesses(spent one year debating with them face to face and proofed all their claims wrong form their Bible/sources) I only asked them to provide the source/reference of their claims version of Islam/religion.

(Quran 2:111)
قُلْ هَاتُوا۟ بُرْهَـٰنَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَـٰدِقِينَ
Bring your proof (of what ye state) if ye are truthful.

I understand your desire to defend Ahadith because you were raised to believe in them(I was once in your shoes). There are some nice ahadith, yet they do not reflect Islam's Deen. Deen, as Allah states in the Quran, has been completed.

Partial verse 5:3
"This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.
“The words of your Lord are complete in its truth and justice. Nothing can change His words – He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing. If you obeyed most of those on earth, they would lead you away from the path of Allah. They follow nothing but speculation – they are merely guessing.” (Qur’an 6:115-116)
"And We have revealed the Book to you which has a clear explanation of everything, and a guidance, mercy and good news for those who submit." (Qur'an 16:89)
“Shall I then seek a Judge other than Allah? When it is He Who has revealed to you the Book fully detailed?” (Qur'an 6:114)
"Say, ‘I do not say to you that I have treasures of Allah, nor do I know the unseen, nor do I tell you that I am an angel. I only follow what is revealed to me.’ " (Qur’an 6:50)
"Should We treat the ones who have surrendered the same as those who are criminals? What is wrong with you, how do you judge? Or do you have another book that you study? In it, you find whatever you wish to find?" (Qur’an 68:36-38)

Concerning the scriptures regarding obeying Allah and the Messenger,
Please take the time to read the following:

And they claim that 'obey God' refers to the Quran, and 'obey the messenger' with the books of Hadith and Sunna

So they believe 'obey God and the messenger' is to follow two different sources.

So let's study the phrase 'obey God and the messenger' from a Quranic point of view

The first Observation: The Quran always says 'obey God and the messenger'.

Never does it say 'obey the prophet' or 'obey Muhammad'.

It is always 'obey God and the messenger'
So it is important to understand what the term 'messenger' (Rasool) means.


And why God did not say 'obey the prophet (nabi)'?

Muhammad had two statuses: The status of NUBUWA (prophethood) And the status of RASOOL (messenger)

The status of NUBUWA - the word NUBUWA means 'high or elevated place'.

This means that God has chosen Muhammad, out of all the humans, to communicate with him certain news, prophecies, etc.

So the status of NUBUWA (prophet) means that a human being is communicating with God.

The status of RASOOL - God tells us the status of RASOOL in the Quran:

(5:67) O messenger, deliver what was sent down to you from your Lord. And if you do not, then you have not delivered His message...

We see that God clearly tells us the duty of the messenger is to deliver the message of God

God also says: (24:54) ...there is nothing upon the messenger except the clear delivery...

This teaches us that the sole duty of the messenger is to deliver the message to the people

So if God did not give Muhammad the 'message', then he would not be called 'messenger' (Rasool).

So God calls him 'Rasool because Muhammad is carrying the 'message'.

What is this message that Muhammad carried? The messenger himself answers this in the Quran:
(6:19) ...this Quran has inspired me to deliver it to you and whoever it reaches...


All these verses teach us that the duty of a messenger is to deliver the message.

Muhammad - the messenger - is required to send us the Quran

So when God says "obey the messenger" we are essentially obeying the 'message' itself

Another observation: God says in the Quran (4:80) "Whoever obeys the messenger, has obeyed God..."

This means when we obey the messenger - the message - the Quran, we have in reality obeyed God

All these verses teach us that 'obey God and the messenger' is essentially obeying ONE source - the Quran

Let's assume that the Quran tells us "obey God" without mentioning obeying the messenger. How would we do that?

This would mean that God Himself would have to come to earth and give us the Quran directly

This of course is illogical

This is why we are to 'obey God and the messenger' - because God gave Muhammad 'the message' which makes him a messenger

And the messenger is required to deliver it to humanity.

So this is what 'obey God and the messenger' means from the Quran.

"Obey God and the messenger" is essentially ONE source - the Quran.

We obey the messenger because he has the 'message'.