Sphere Manisfest
Senator (1k+ posts)
Ah. I ve lost both of you. Let me try to read from square 1 again.
NOVA documentary on Human Evolution
- Thread starter Vitamin_C
- Start date
What is the difference between facts and theory?
First of all words fact and theory both have various meanings which depend upon the context of their use or purpose. However in one respect facts are objects or things that are detectable with human senses either directly or with help of instruments ie real world realities are facts be they within our own reach or not. In this context theory means explanation that helps make sense of the things or facts or real world realities or objects. In the same context laws are those observed realities which repeatedly happen the same way or are made to happen the same way. It is a matter of if, then and always. Law means a way of doing something or a way of making something happen the same way. For example, if water is poured on the ground then it will flow downhill due to gravity. Since this will happen always therefore we can take it as a rule. If anything consumable is put in the fire then it will burn. Since this will happen always therefore we can take it as a rule.
Coming to theory of evolution. It is not a fact in the sense explained above because it is not a real world reality or an object but an explanation of some observed realities or objects. Whether this explanation is complete or incomplete depends upon facts or objects used in its explanation. The more the number of facts there are the better the explanation of the facts is because the increased quantity of things in the sample helps understand something better just like quality control sampling. The higher the frequency of the samples the more likely that faulty goods will be caught and less likely that faulty good will escape detection.
Since for Godless explanation of evolution samples so far collected or are available are not sufficient in numbers therefore it is not as good an explanation as is necessary or needed therefore to take it as a something water tight is not right. There are far too many gaps between things which clearly show they do not transform into each other smoothly rather they need more and more intermediary things to go between them. This shows steps or breaks or irregularities which lend support to God based idea of evolution than the Godless based idea of evolution. For example, big bang seems to be a controlled inflation of the universe or expansion of the time and space for serving some purpose rather than a random explosion which could have led to chaos instead of the fully functioning universe.
As for evolution based upon divine intervention there is more than sufficient evidence. For example, so many variations in each and every kind of things in ways that cannot be explained any other way than external intervention due gaps between species of things. More than that the origin of things which did not exist is better explained that way only. That is, a thing which we accept has come into existence had to have a parent or originator otherwise it could not come into being. I am here due to my parents and the chain goes back but it has to stop at some point in time. If this does not stop then that leads us into infinity which is impossible for things that come into existence because before a child thing could come into existence its parent must first have to be there and if parents of parents are not there then how could the child come into existence? This being the case we have no choice but to except that ultimately there is something there which was always there which did not need a creator which brought the non-existing thing or things into being eg the universe and things in it. Since things need to be functional that come about otherwise they cannot survive this means they need designing and planning because allowing things to happen randomly is not going to produce any results regardless of length of time. You can break a glass bottle and let the pieces lie on the ground they will never become a bottle again regardless how long they are left there. This is why saying Godless evolution is a fact is wrong. If God evolved things it still needs a lot of explanations eg what was purpose of God for creating things? How did he create them? How do they work to fulfil his objective? etc etc. Idea of God can only be eliminated once we have better explanation than the one offered by the allegedly revealed scripture. However first we need to learn enough to understand this scripture that is said to be from God ie the quran.
I blame our human ignorance for lack of our understanding of the allegedly divine scripture because I have my reasons to believe so. For example, to begin with we humans depend upon external physical realities for learning by interacting with them directly. It is because our minds create images of things or models which we see. As things are or they interact with each other we try to figure them out. Through this learning process we learn simple reasoning which becomes more and more complex and sophisticated as we learn more and more. This is why those who have wider and deeper life experiences have better understanding of things than those who have narrow and shallow life experiences. This is why people with wider and deeper life experiences can easily see logical connections and disconnections between things. This helps people to see what goes together and what does not. This is how we gradually become rational thinkers. However to think about abstracts is still another world to learn about and anyone who is not good at learning about real world realities certainly cannot be good in learning about abstract realities because in that case one has to rely upon abstract ideas more and more to try and understand things.
Let me try and explain this in another way. Let say our bike has broken down and we need to repair it. Since bike is basically a physical thing with almost all parts visible to us we can easily find most of the faults in it just by physical visual examination of it. The same cannot be said about our tv set when that breaks down. This time there are many more parts involved and a lot of things in it involve electricity which means electrons are not visible to us to see where they are going and how the fault is preventing them from working. It is easy for a mother to put on anti septic cream when her child slightly injures himself while playing in the playground,, however if a person has internal pain due to something gone wrong inside then that cannot be easily diagnosed due to being invisible to the eye. So we can see how visible things help us learn about invisible things. Therefore first stage of learning is to learn about what is visible and within our reach. Without first going through this stage we cannot develop to go to the next stage of process of learning.
This is why just because we have managed to understand a little bit about real world realities does not mean we can understand the scripture attributed to God. That is because to understand the scripture people need to especially prepare themselves as it needs a higher stage of learning by human beings. That is because it is word of God but in human language and the problem is in decoding it accordingly.
Why do we need higher stage of learning to understand the scripture? It is because without scripture there is nothing to tell us with reasonable certainty regarding origin of the universe and ourselves, how things came to be what they are, what is purpose of all this and how things are supposed to work to fulfil any purpose if there is one? Such things are beyond our senses that is why the need for guidance. However just because we can read a scripture does not mean we can understand it properly or we can follow it faithfully. This needs knowledge about things that a scripture talks about otherwise we cannot understand it. What sense can a baby get when a politician starts talking to him about politics? Absolutely none. Since scripture is mainly for peace and harmony between people so that they could then together concentrate on higher objectives rather than fighting with each other and losing the sight of higher goals therefore it needs full attention for our proper understanding of it to benefit from it.
This is why we cannot be right in dismissing things out of hand till we have done our bit properly regarding the scripture. Divine scriptures were not needed if we were already fully programmed like robots. Scriptures are needed because we have been programmed a bit and a bit we must program ourselves like self learning robots. In short God has designed us to find out God but by our own sense of creativity and effort.
As for the objective of deen of islam, it is to fulfil the purpose for which Allah has created this universe and mankind in it. I have already explained in detail what that purpose is or why Allah bothered to create the universe and us human beings in it. Anyone who has bothered to read my posts will have come to know it.
Just to remind people, Allah created things because he being a living being decided to express his existence and that he did by way of creation and revelation. Why revelation? Because he wanted to create a creature called human with a limited free will so that it could appreciate his existence and ability of creativity out of choice with a little helping hand from God himself through his guidance.
To appreciate God to that degree humanity has to reach a level of knowledge all by itself to be able to understand the scripture properly because it has been created knowing nothing at all but with brains and senses and bodies that can help it achieve that objective with help of God's revelation.
This is the starting point of deen of islam ie the purpose why God created things including human beings and why human beings have been left on their own by God to learn things by themselves through direct interaction with things after being created knowing nothing at all. This is why God advises a way of life for mankind that could help them fulfil the purpose for which God created human beings.
What is deen of islam? It is a way of life which if understood properly and followed faithfully by mankind can lead them to blissful, dignified and secure life in this world and any effort by anyone made in that direction will be rewarded both in this life as well as in the life to come. Any people who will reject and oppose that way of life will end up in painful suffering in this life by hands of each other as well as in hereafter because whatever way of life people will invent and adopt by themselves will never lead them to blissful, dignified and secure existence instead it will always lead them into conflicts and wars with each other because no way of life people will ever be able to invent and follow that could be free of concept of personal gains at the expense of each other. This is why deen of islam will take over humanity in due course completely ie after a lot of conflicts and fights with each other people will gradually come to realise that they have no way of life to live by other than the way of life whereby they could live with each other as a united, peaceful, progressive and prosper human community ie an ummah.
What is the way of life about whereby Allah wants people to live? It is about living for each other and not living at the expense of each other. It is because personal vested interests at the expense of each other lead people into all sorts of harmful and destructive divisions and conflicts with each other sooner or later. That is how comes about rivalry and animosity which leads to hatred between people that turns into conflicts which lead to unending wars between people.
Why must people live for each other? It is because they have been created to depend upon each other. Some have been created with much more advantages as compared to others only to work together as one single human family ie they have been created for purpose of complementing each other and not for taking undue advantages of each other. Why must anyone work for anyone else instead of oneself? It is because all human beings belong to God and everything also belongs to God so all things must be used according to his guidance so that his purpose could become fulfilled. If people will not do so then because all people are not created equal therefore those better off will try and take undue advantage of the disadvantaged and so the conflicts will start which cannot be ended till people do what God says ie use his provisions according to his wishes to ensure well being of all people. This is why in deen of islam there is no right for anyone to rule over others or to buy or sell anything because nothing belongs to anyone to do so. People have right of use of things from God but only if they use them according to guidance of God not otherwise. This is why there is no ruling class or money lending business elite or priestly class in actual deen of islam. All these are tricks and mechanisms for using masses abusively by cleverest among them.
The objective of deen of islam is very clear which is to unite mankind for their own good to ensure well being of mankind. Now when you want to unite people you not only need goals and guidelines but a program as well. This is why the quran not only gives a program for accomplishing the stated goals but also guidelines for formation of a constitution and laws to go with it so that people could organise and regulate themselves as a proper human community according to them for accomplishing the stated objectives. This is why goals, guidelines, program, constitution and laws all have to be consistent with each other so that the whole thing could work like a machine. This is what deen of islam basically is in a nut shell.
All human ideologies are based upon pyramid scheme for power through manpower or wealth or fooling people in the name of God through various religions or variations of secularism which present a very odd and twisted concept about God over which people waste a lot of time in arguing with each other endlessly as is very much obvious from the debates on this very site.
For more please see HERE and HERE.
First of all words fact and theory both have various meanings which depend upon the context of their use or purpose. However in one respect facts are objects or things that are detectable with human senses either directly or with help of instruments ie real world realities are facts be they within our own reach or not. In this context theory means explanation that helps make sense of the things or facts or real world realities or objects. In the same context laws are those observed realities which repeatedly happen the same way or are made to happen the same way. It is a matter of if, then and always. Law means a way of doing something or a way of making something happen the same way. For example, if water is poured on the ground then it will flow downhill due to gravity. Since this will happen always therefore we can take it as a rule. If anything consumable is put in the fire then it will burn. Since this will happen always therefore we can take it as a rule.
Coming to theory of evolution. It is not a fact in the sense explained above because it is not a real world reality or an object but an explanation of some observed realities or objects. Whether this explanation is complete or incomplete depends upon facts or objects used in its explanation. The more the number of facts there are the better the explanation of the facts is because the increased quantity of things in the sample helps understand something better just like quality control sampling. The higher the frequency of the samples the more likely that faulty goods will be caught and less likely that faulty good will escape detection.
Since for Godless explanation of evolution samples so far collected or are available are not sufficient in numbers therefore it is not as good an explanation as is necessary or needed therefore to take it as a something water tight is not right. There are far too many gaps between things which clearly show they do not transform into each other smoothly rather they need more and more intermediary things to go between them. This shows steps or breaks or irregularities which lend support to God based idea of evolution than the Godless based idea of evolution. For example, big bang seems to be a controlled inflation of the universe or expansion of the time and space for serving some purpose rather than a random explosion which could have led to chaos instead of the fully functioning universe.
As for evolution based upon divine intervention there is more than sufficient evidence. For example, so many variations in each and every kind of things in ways that cannot be explained any other way than external intervention due gaps between species of things. More than that the origin of things which did not exist is better explained that way only. That is, a thing which we accept has come into existence had to have a parent or originator otherwise it could not come into being. I am here due to my parents and the chain goes back but it has to stop at some point in time. If this does not stop then that leads us into infinity which is impossible for things that come into existence because before a child thing could come into existence its parent must first have to be there and if parents of parents are not there then how could the child come into existence? This being the case we have no choice but to except that ultimately there is something there which was always there which did not need a creator which brought the non-existing thing or things into being eg the universe and things in it. Since things need to be functional that come about otherwise they cannot survive this means they need designing and planning because allowing things to happen randomly is not going to produce any results regardless of length of time. You can break a glass bottle and let the pieces lie on the ground they will never become a bottle again regardless how long they are left there. This is why saying Godless evolution is a fact is wrong. If God evolved things it still needs a lot of explanations eg what was purpose of God for creating things? How did he create them? How do they work to fulfil his objective? etc etc. Idea of God can only be eliminated once we have better explanation than the one offered by the allegedly revealed scripture. However first we need to learn enough to understand this scripture that is said to be from God ie the quran.
I blame our human ignorance for lack of our understanding of the allegedly divine scripture because I have my reasons to believe so. For example, to begin with we humans depend upon external physical realities for learning by interacting with them directly. It is because our minds create images of things or models which we see. As things are or they interact with each other we try to figure them out. Through this learning process we learn simple reasoning which becomes more and more complex and sophisticated as we learn more and more. This is why those who have wider and deeper life experiences have better understanding of things than those who have narrow and shallow life experiences. This is why people with wider and deeper life experiences can easily see logical connections and disconnections between things. This helps people to see what goes together and what does not. This is how we gradually become rational thinkers. However to think about abstracts is still another world to learn about and anyone who is not good at learning about real world realities certainly cannot be good in learning about abstract realities because in that case one has to rely upon abstract ideas more and more to try and understand things.
Let me try and explain this in another way. Let say our bike has broken down and we need to repair it. Since bike is basically a physical thing with almost all parts visible to us we can easily find most of the faults in it just by physical visual examination of it. The same cannot be said about our tv set when that breaks down. This time there are many more parts involved and a lot of things in it involve electricity which means electrons are not visible to us to see where they are going and how the fault is preventing them from working. It is easy for a mother to put on anti septic cream when her child slightly injures himself while playing in the playground,, however if a person has internal pain due to something gone wrong inside then that cannot be easily diagnosed due to being invisible to the eye. So we can see how visible things help us learn about invisible things. Therefore first stage of learning is to learn about what is visible and within our reach. Without first going through this stage we cannot develop to go to the next stage of process of learning.
This is why just because we have managed to understand a little bit about real world realities does not mean we can understand the scripture attributed to God. That is because to understand the scripture people need to especially prepare themselves as it needs a higher stage of learning by human beings. That is because it is word of God but in human language and the problem is in decoding it accordingly.
Why do we need higher stage of learning to understand the scripture? It is because without scripture there is nothing to tell us with reasonable certainty regarding origin of the universe and ourselves, how things came to be what they are, what is purpose of all this and how things are supposed to work to fulfil any purpose if there is one? Such things are beyond our senses that is why the need for guidance. However just because we can read a scripture does not mean we can understand it properly or we can follow it faithfully. This needs knowledge about things that a scripture talks about otherwise we cannot understand it. What sense can a baby get when a politician starts talking to him about politics? Absolutely none. Since scripture is mainly for peace and harmony between people so that they could then together concentrate on higher objectives rather than fighting with each other and losing the sight of higher goals therefore it needs full attention for our proper understanding of it to benefit from it.
This is why we cannot be right in dismissing things out of hand till we have done our bit properly regarding the scripture. Divine scriptures were not needed if we were already fully programmed like robots. Scriptures are needed because we have been programmed a bit and a bit we must program ourselves like self learning robots. In short God has designed us to find out God but by our own sense of creativity and effort.
As for the objective of deen of islam, it is to fulfil the purpose for which Allah has created this universe and mankind in it. I have already explained in detail what that purpose is or why Allah bothered to create the universe and us human beings in it. Anyone who has bothered to read my posts will have come to know it.
Just to remind people, Allah created things because he being a living being decided to express his existence and that he did by way of creation and revelation. Why revelation? Because he wanted to create a creature called human with a limited free will so that it could appreciate his existence and ability of creativity out of choice with a little helping hand from God himself through his guidance.
To appreciate God to that degree humanity has to reach a level of knowledge all by itself to be able to understand the scripture properly because it has been created knowing nothing at all but with brains and senses and bodies that can help it achieve that objective with help of God's revelation.
This is the starting point of deen of islam ie the purpose why God created things including human beings and why human beings have been left on their own by God to learn things by themselves through direct interaction with things after being created knowing nothing at all. This is why God advises a way of life for mankind that could help them fulfil the purpose for which God created human beings.
What is deen of islam? It is a way of life which if understood properly and followed faithfully by mankind can lead them to blissful, dignified and secure life in this world and any effort by anyone made in that direction will be rewarded both in this life as well as in the life to come. Any people who will reject and oppose that way of life will end up in painful suffering in this life by hands of each other as well as in hereafter because whatever way of life people will invent and adopt by themselves will never lead them to blissful, dignified and secure existence instead it will always lead them into conflicts and wars with each other because no way of life people will ever be able to invent and follow that could be free of concept of personal gains at the expense of each other. This is why deen of islam will take over humanity in due course completely ie after a lot of conflicts and fights with each other people will gradually come to realise that they have no way of life to live by other than the way of life whereby they could live with each other as a united, peaceful, progressive and prosper human community ie an ummah.
What is the way of life about whereby Allah wants people to live? It is about living for each other and not living at the expense of each other. It is because personal vested interests at the expense of each other lead people into all sorts of harmful and destructive divisions and conflicts with each other sooner or later. That is how comes about rivalry and animosity which leads to hatred between people that turns into conflicts which lead to unending wars between people.
Why must people live for each other? It is because they have been created to depend upon each other. Some have been created with much more advantages as compared to others only to work together as one single human family ie they have been created for purpose of complementing each other and not for taking undue advantages of each other. Why must anyone work for anyone else instead of oneself? It is because all human beings belong to God and everything also belongs to God so all things must be used according to his guidance so that his purpose could become fulfilled. If people will not do so then because all people are not created equal therefore those better off will try and take undue advantage of the disadvantaged and so the conflicts will start which cannot be ended till people do what God says ie use his provisions according to his wishes to ensure well being of all people. This is why in deen of islam there is no right for anyone to rule over others or to buy or sell anything because nothing belongs to anyone to do so. People have right of use of things from God but only if they use them according to guidance of God not otherwise. This is why there is no ruling class or money lending business elite or priestly class in actual deen of islam. All these are tricks and mechanisms for using masses abusively by cleverest among them.
The objective of deen of islam is very clear which is to unite mankind for their own good to ensure well being of mankind. Now when you want to unite people you not only need goals and guidelines but a program as well. This is why the quran not only gives a program for accomplishing the stated goals but also guidelines for formation of a constitution and laws to go with it so that people could organise and regulate themselves as a proper human community according to them for accomplishing the stated objectives. This is why goals, guidelines, program, constitution and laws all have to be consistent with each other so that the whole thing could work like a machine. This is what deen of islam basically is in a nut shell.
All human ideologies are based upon pyramid scheme for power through manpower or wealth or fooling people in the name of God through various religions or variations of secularism which present a very odd and twisted concept about God over which people waste a lot of time in arguing with each other endlessly as is very much obvious from the debates on this very site.
For more please see HERE and HERE.
Last edited:
Mind_Master
MPA (400+ posts)
ٹوپی ڈرامے نا کرو مادام رہنے دو، آیندہ سے آئینے کو غور دے دیکھنا تو پتا چل جائے گا کے آنکھیں غزالی نہیں، صرف آپکا وہم ہے.
