Indian Muslims have lowest Female Infanticide ratio compared to HIndus and other Indians : TOI (Ache

[modern.fakir]

Disturbing finding: When first born is female, sex ratio of second child falls

Anahita Mukherji,TNN | Dec 27, 2014, 02.11 AM IST

​

The report looks at some insidious trends that point to a lowering of India’s child sex ratio.








How does a preference for boys over girls skew the child sex ratio? Does the neglect of a girl child result in a dip in the sex ratio? How does one quantify neglect? These are some of the issues explored in a recently released report, 'World of Indian Girls-2014', authored by academicians from the Tata Institute of Social Sciences for the NGO Save the Children.

The report, which draws from the latest available data, focuses on the girl child, a category that is rarely studied on its own, and is often lost in the general literature on either women or on children.

The report looks at some insidious trends that point to a lowering of India's child sex ratio. For instance, a Lancet study on trends in sex-selective abortion in India shows that when the first child in a family is male, there is no fall in the sex ratio for the second child, but when the first child is female, there is a decline in the sex ratio of the second child. The National Family Health Survey-3 also shows a dip in the child sex ratio along the birth order. The sex ratio for the last birth in a family was seen to be 26% lower than for all births in the family. The figure was 19% for NFHS-2 and 14% for NFHS-1. The data suggests that the last girl to be conceived is more vulnerable to sex-selective abortion than the first.

Research on India's disappearing daughters finds that higher levels of wealth and education do not result in a better child sex ratio, with wealthy parts of the country availing of sex-determination. However, India's Muslim population, which belongs largely to lower socio-economic strata, has a higher female sex ratio.

While India has outlawed the use of technology to determine the sex of a foetus, the report points to a study by the Public Health Foundation of India, which shows that the law is poorly implemented. The study looked at 15 case records and spoke of the difficulty involved in convicting a doctor for a crime that involved uttering a word or making a gesture to indicate the sex of a child.

After birth, too, neglect can severely affect a girl's chances of survival. While data shows the mortality rate (deaths per 1,000 live births) at the neo-natal stage (1-28 days) is lower for girls than boys as girls are biologically hardier than boys, the trend is reversed at the post-neonatal stage. Mortality under the age of five is found to be 69.7 for boys and 79.2 for girls. "There are studies which show the biological advantage of the girl child," says TISS professor P Bindulakshmi, one of the authors of the report, adding that the increase in mortality in the post-neonatal period suggests non-biological factors.

While India has outlawed the use of technology to determine the sex of a foetus, the report points to a study by the Public Health Foundation of India, which shows that the law is poorly implemented.

Further evidence of neglect is seen in the fact that, for the same ailments, treatment is sought for a greater proportion of boys than girls. In case of acute respiratory infections, treatment was sought for 6% more boys than girls. In cases of diarrhoea, boys are 7% more likely than girls to be taken to a health facility. Worse still, the proportion of male children who are fully immunized is 4% higher than female children.

Bindulakshmi rues the fact that in the year 2014, there remains a preference for a male child in India, one that manifests itself in various ways. Despite a number of government schemes and policies addressing the needs of the girl child, she points to the fact that patriarchal norms have remained intact.

Source

 

[modern.fakir]

This statement seals the fate of the beauty of Islam.....this coming from the horses mouth ...:biggthumpup:

However, India's Muslim population, which belongs largely to lower socio-economic strata, has a higher female sex ratio.

 

[Rashna]

This has everything to do with Islam. For once you are right modern fakir. Muslims have a higher fertility rate because they largely don't practice contraception and therefore there is no question of curtailing the birth of any child based on gender. Just look at the trends in population chart. It tells u the whole story.

Demographic Dividend and Indian Muslims - i

The Milli Gazette

Published Online: Jun 14, 2013

Print Issue: 1-15 May 2013

By Aariz Mohammed
Director, Center for Social Justice, Hyderabad

Introduction: We have discussed the Muslim backwardness since ages and post-Sachar, the passion is continuing. Some of us contributed to get policies drafted to address this situation and some are working on their implementation. Yet, the challenge remains standstill as the share of the young Muslim population continues to grow in the overall demographic dividend of India with all its positive and negative results.
The objective here is to drive the community to face the challenges and prepare to capitalize on the dividend. It will be a dividend if we accelerate our preparation, else it will be a curse. A multi-dimensional approach with sustainable efforts at various levels is needed to address the challenge. The available studies on the ‘Indian demographic dividend’ are not much qualitative as the space for R&D in our policies is non-cognizable. This limitation expands to all ‘Social-Identities’ and the ‘Indian Muslim’ identity is not an exception. Human development indications with SRC variables are also not available as no such exercise is undertaken even though the statutory bodies were demanding it for some time.Here is an attempt, with all its limitations, to present a broad picture on the subject.

​

India 2011 Census: The provisional Census 2011 data says the total Indian population is 121,01,93,422 with 58,64,69,174 females and 62,37,24,248 males. The decadal growth rate is 17.64%.
Birth rate: 20.97 births/1,000 population growth rate: 1.344 %.
Death rate: 7.48 deaths/1,000 population.
Fertility rate: 2.62 children born/woman.
Infant mortality rate: Total: 47.57 deaths/1,000 live births. Female: 49.14 deaths/1,000 live births; male: 46.18 deaths/1, 000 live births.
Life expectancy at birth: Total: 66.8 years -- female: 67.95 years; male: 65.77 years.
Age structure: 65 years and over: 5.5 % (male: 30,831,190 and female: 33,998,613).
15 years to 64 years: 64.9 % (male: 3,98,757,331 and female: 3,72,719,379);
0 years to 14 years: 29.7 % (male: 187,450,635 and female: 1,65, 415,758).
Median age: Total: 26.2 years -- female: 26.9 years; male: 25.6 years
Sex ratio: Total: 1 female/1.08 males 65 years and over: 1 female/0.91 male 15-64 years: 1 female/1.07 males; below 15 years: 1 female/1.13 males; at birth: 1 female/1.12 males.
Literacy: Total: 77,84,54,120 -- females: 33,42,50,358; males: 44,42,03,762.
Literacy rate: Total: 74.04 % -- females: 65.46 %; males: 82.14 %.
Net migration rate: -0.05 migrant/1,000 population

Working Age Population by 2026: Bihar, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan and Uttar Pradesh are typical underperforming states. Assam along with BIMARU states contributed 27% to Indian economy in 1997-98. Bihar, Uttar Pradesh and Madhya Pradesh will together contain 31.2% of India’s youth in 2026. The backward BIMARU states have the greatest growth rates of working age ratio with only the rich state of Haryana as the non-BIMARU state in the top five.
Between 2001 and 2026, in a period of 25 years, working age population will grow by 19.8% in Rajasthan, 17.3% in Haryana and 16.8% in Bihar. In 2001, Bihar, Uttar Pradesh and Madhya Pradesh had a large chunk of their populations living below the poverty line with Bihar touching 42.6%. In the HDI ranks, out of 15 states, Bihar ranks at number 15, Uttar Pradesh at 13 and Madhya Pradesh at 12. Bihar and Uttar Pradesh also have very low labour force participation rates, casting doubt on their ability to absorb the increasing growth in their labour force.The growth rate of employment is reasonable by Indian standards in the BIMARU states. However, given the large bulk of the working age population on its way, this will have to increase.The future of the Indian Demographic Dividend looks dim. To reap the benefits of a favourable age structure, the states of Bihar, Uttar Pradesh and Madhya Pradesh will need to undergo serious reforms to improve the health and education conditions, create meaningful employment much faster and tackle widespread poverty immediately.Looking at the future, the rich states of Haryana, Punjab, Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh and Himachal Pradesh will contain the most favourable age structures in 2026. These states have sound policies and can be predicted to create productive job opportunities for its population.
Indian Muslims: The Indian Muslim population is around 170 million, as per the estimated figure for the year 2011. It is estimated to be 13.4% to the total population with a marginal increase of .2% over the 2001 census. This is due to the higher fertility rate with 29.9% as per NFHS III though the fertility has gone down by 1.32% between NFHS II-III.
Projections for the future population growth in India show that by the end of the 21st century, India’s total population will stabilize in which the Muslim population would be less than 20% of total, as noted by the Sachar Committee.Given the trends of fertility rates by 2018, the total fertility rate of Muslims and Hindus will be same. As the Muslim population is much younger, it would continue to grow more rapidly than the non-Muslim for some time, but eventually the growth rate of both populations would be the same and the Muslim portion of the India’s population would tend to stabilize.The world’s Muslim population is expected to increase by about 35 per cent in the next 20 years, rising from 1.6 billion in 2010 to 2.2 billion by 2030, according to new population projections by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life.Muslims may maintain a population growth rate somewhat higher than other groups and their percentage of India’s population might slowly grow. It is because the use of modern methods of contraceptive is very low among Muslims as compared to others. Religious differences over the use of modern contraception, based on the latest NFHS-3 (2005- 06) data, clearly indicate that the prevalence of modern contraception is the highest among Jains (69%) and lowest among Muslims (36%). Around 50% of Hindus are protected by some modern method like sterilization, pill, IUD and condom which are available in the official programme (column 2). The prevalence of sterilization does not differ much among most religious groups, except for the fact that it is very low among Muslims (column 3). The proportion of women and men who have been sterilized is twice as high for Hindus as for Muslims.Globally, the Muslim population is forecast to grow at about twice the rate of the non-Muslim populations over the next two decades - an average annual growth rate of 1.5 pc for Muslims, compared with 0.7 pc for non-Muslims.If the current trends continue, Muslims will make up 26.4 pc of the world’s total projected population of 8.3 billion in 2030, up from 23.4 pc of the estimated 2010 world population of 6.9 billion.How does India stand in this? Not much of a change, it seems. India is projected to remain as the third-largest Muslim population (in absolute numbers) in the world by 2030, following Indonesia and Pakistan. The Muslim population in India is projected to increase from 177.3 million in 2010 to 236.2 million in 2030. The Muslim share of India’s population is expected to increase from 14.6 pc in 2010 to 15.9 pc in 2030.More than one-in-ten of the world’s Muslims (10.8 pc) will live in India in 2030 — about the same as in 2010.Muslims in India continue to have more children on average than non-Muslims. These are among the key findings of a comprehensive report on the size, distribution and growth of the global Muslim population.

 

[GreenMaple]

Our beloved Prophet (PBUH) said; "Anyone who raised a pious daughter and have her married off will have a choice to enter paradise from any one of its eight gates".

 

[modern.fakir]

Its only logical rashna.....were having BOTH the sexes and not just aborting the females which is a crime in any sense :biggthumpup:

Islam saves Humanity !!....something which you cant get modern day indians to accept !!:biggthumpup:

This has everything to do with Islam. For once you are right modern fakir. Muslims have a higher fertility rate because they largely don't practice contraception and therefore there is no question of curtailing the birth of any child based on gender. Just look at the trends in population chart. It tells u the whole story.

Demographic Dividend and Indian Muslims - i

The Milli Gazette

Published Online: Jun 14, 2013

Print Issue: 1-15 May 2013

By Aariz Mohammed
Director, Center for Social Justice, Hyderabad

Introduction: We have discussed the Muslim backwardness since ages and post-Sachar, the passion is continuing. Some of us contributed to get policies drafted to address this situation and some are working on their implementation. Yet, the challenge remains standstill as the share of the young Muslim population continues to grow in the overall demographic dividend of India with all its positive and negative results.
The objective here is to drive the community to face the challenges and prepare to capitalize on the dividend. It will be a dividend if we accelerate our preparation, else it will be a curse. A multi-dimensional approach with sustainable efforts at various levels is needed to address the challenge. The available studies on the ‘Indian demographic dividend’ are not much qualitative as the space for R&D in our policies is non-cognizable. This limitation expands to all ‘Social-Identities’ and the ‘Indian Muslim’ identity is not an exception. Human development indications with SRC variables are also not available as no such exercise is undertaken even though the statutory bodies were demanding it for some time.Here is an attempt, with all its limitations, to present a broad picture on the subject.

​

India 2011 Census: The provisional Census 2011 data says the total Indian population is 121,01,93,422 with 58,64,69,174 females and 62,37,24,248 males. The decadal growth rate is 17.64%.
Birth rate: 20.97 births/1,000 population growth rate: 1.344 %.
Death rate: 7.48 deaths/1,000 population.
Fertility rate: 2.62 children born/woman.
Infant mortality rate: Total: 47.57 deaths/1,000 live births. Female: 49.14 deaths/1,000 live births; male: 46.18 deaths/1, 000 live births.
Life expectancy at birth: Total: 66.8 years -- female: 67.95 years; male: 65.77 years.
Age structure: 65 years and over: 5.5 % (male: 30,831,190 and female: 33,998,613).
15 years to 64 years: 64.9 % (male: 3,98,757,331 and female: 3,72,719,379);
0 years to 14 years: 29.7 % (male: 187,450,635 and female: 1,65, 415,758).
Median age: Total: 26.2 years -- female: 26.9 years; male: 25.6 years
Sex ratio: Total: 1 female/1.08 males 65 years and over: 1 female/0.91 male 15-64 years: 1 female/1.07 males; below 15 years: 1 female/1.13 males; at birth: 1 female/1.12 males.
Literacy: Total: 77,84,54,120 -- females: 33,42,50,358; males: 44,42,03,762.
Literacy rate: Total: 74.04 % -- females: 65.46 %; males: 82.14 %.
Net migration rate: -0.05 migrant/1,000 population

Working Age Population by 2026: Bihar, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan and Uttar Pradesh are typical underperforming states. Assam along with BIMARU states contributed 27% to Indian economy in 1997-98. Bihar, Uttar Pradesh and Madhya Pradesh will together contain 31.2% of India’s youth in 2026. The backward BIMARU states have the greatest growth rates of working age ratio with only the rich state of Haryana as the non-BIMARU state in the top five.
Between 2001 and 2026, in a period of 25 years, working age population will grow by 19.8% in Rajasthan, 17.3% in Haryana and 16.8% in Bihar. In 2001, Bihar, Uttar Pradesh and Madhya Pradesh had a large chunk of their populations living below the poverty line with Bihar touching 42.6%. In the HDI ranks, out of 15 states, Bihar ranks at number 15, Uttar Pradesh at 13 and Madhya Pradesh at 12. Bihar and Uttar Pradesh also have very low labour force participation rates, casting doubt on their ability to absorb the increasing growth in their labour force.The growth rate of employment is reasonable by Indian standards in the BIMARU states. However, given the large bulk of the working age population on its way, this will have to increase.The future of the Indian Demographic Dividend looks dim. To reap the benefits of a favourable age structure, the states of Bihar, Uttar Pradesh and Madhya Pradesh will need to undergo serious reforms to improve the health and education conditions, create meaningful employment much faster and tackle widespread poverty immediately.Looking at the future, the rich states of Haryana, Punjab, Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh and Himachal Pradesh will contain the most favourable age structures in 2026. These states have sound policies and can be predicted to create productive job opportunities for its population.
Indian Muslims: The Indian Muslim population is around 170 million, as per the estimated figure for the year 2011. It is estimated to be 13.4% to the total population with a marginal increase of .2% over the 2001 census. This is due to the higher fertility rate with 29.9% as per NFHS III though the fertility has gone down by 1.32% between NFHS II-III.
Projections for the future population growth in India show that by the end of the 21st century, India’s total population will stabilize in which the Muslim population would be less than 20% of total, as noted by the Sachar Committee.Given the trends of fertility rates by 2018, the total fertility rate of Muslims and Hindus will be same. As the Muslim population is much younger, it would continue to grow more rapidly than the non-Muslim for some time, but eventually the growth rate of both populations would be the same and the Muslim portion of the India’s population would tend to stabilize.The world’s Muslim population is expected to increase by about 35 per cent in the next 20 years, rising from 1.6 billion in 2010 to 2.2 billion by 2030, according to new population projections by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life.Muslims may maintain a population growth rate somewhat higher than other groups and their percentage of India’s population might slowly grow. It is because the use of modern methods of contraceptive is very low among Muslims as compared to others. Religious differences over the use of modern contraception, based on the latest NFHS-3 (2005- 06) data, clearly indicate that the prevalence of modern contraception is the highest among Jains (69%) and lowest among Muslims (36%). Around 50% of Hindus are protected by some modern method like sterilization, pill, IUD and condom which are available in the official programme (column 2). The prevalence of sterilization does not differ much among most religious groups, except for the fact that it is very low among Muslims (column 3). The proportion of women and men who have been sterilized is twice as high for Hindus as for Muslims.Globally, the Muslim population is forecast to grow at about twice the rate of the non-Muslim populations over the next two decades - an average annual growth rate of 1.5 pc for Muslims, compared with 0.7 pc for non-Muslims.If the current trends continue, Muslims will make up 26.4 pc of the world’s total projected population of 8.3 billion in 2030, up from 23.4 pc of the estimated 2010 world population of 6.9 billion.How does India stand in this? Not much of a change, it seems. India is projected to remain as the third-largest Muslim population (in absolute numbers) in the world by 2030, following Indonesia and Pakistan. The Muslim population in India is projected to increase from 177.3 million in 2010 to 236.2 million in 2030. The Muslim share of India’s population is expected to increase from 14.6 pc in 2010 to 15.9 pc in 2030.More than one-in-ten of the world’s Muslims (10.8 pc) will live in India in 2030 — about the same as in 2010.Muslims in India continue to have more children on average than non-Muslims. These are among the key findings of a comprehensive report on the size, distribution and growth of the global Muslim population.

 

[Rashna]

Logic is seldom used. If the population growth be allowed unfettered then no logic need be used. Even in a seemingly carefree society like US many states have banned abortion. Now they can afford to ban abortion because their population is in control. We in India cannot afford to ban abortion. Look at what china did to try and control their population. And now they are looking at a very aged population. And in India foeticide has made sure that the birth rates will fall in the future because many men are not going to get wives.

Its only logical rashna.....were having BOTH the sexes and not just aborting the females which is a crime in any sense :biggthumpup:

 

[modern.fakir]

That is flawed logic at best. Men not getting wives is the leading cause of women smuggling from the poorer states to the richer states and the GROWING RAPE crisis in India and this comes from your own report and article above !

Surprising how you have negated what you have said that the US is actually promoting more population because they have now learned that their birth rate is not enough to propogate their race and support their taxation system that funds their healthcare and social security systems...China is on route to doing the samething, it has already realised its one child policy was a failure and is now legislating to make it more liberal.

See basically this whole "contraception" and population is a BIG FARCE because on one hand countries with large population provide markets but are also leading importers of tax-paying immigrants to these So-called "western" and "contraception-loving" countries !! - If their strategies are so Good then why is every western country looking to import citizens from countries of HIgh birth ??

So countries blessed with a higher birth rate had it all right after all ?

In other words their is enough of the world for all of us, Man just has to learn to share !!....and if we wont do it then ALLAH swt nature will force us to!

The thing is that Muslims have been foretold this whereas the others are learning through the process of trial and error :biggthumpup:

Logic is seldom used. If the population growth be allowed unfettered then no logic need be used. Even in a seemingly carefree society like US many states have banned abortion. Now they can afford to ban abortion because their population is in control. We in India cannot afford to ban abortion. Look at what china did to try and control their population. And now they are looking at a very aged population. And in India foeticide has made sure that the birth rates will fall in the future because many men are not going to get wives.

 

[Rashna]

I am trying to think aloud and that is why there are many contradictory things ive said in my earlier post. But this is exactly the problem. What is right for some may be wrong for others. There is also a flip of side of having a higher ratio of females. That they get trafficked or that it breeds the necessity for multiple marriages or polygamy which is precisely the reason it has sanction in Islam. I don't know if the female to male ratio in Arabia was high around the time when Islam came into being but i suspect this to be the reason behind one man being allowed 4 wives. Anyway that is not the point under consideration in the current day and age.
I think there is no easy answer to this conundrum. Whether to just grow unfettered or to control the population through means fair and foul. Muslims are playing it safe for now, but a large family size means it will take them forever to reach some economic stability.
In this day and age where people are hankering after designer babies how far are we from the day when gender selection will be touted as a fundamental right for people.

That is flawed logic at best. Men not getting wives is the leading cause of women smuggling from the poorer states to the richer states and the GROWING RAPE crisis in India.

Surprising how you have negated what you have said that the US is actually promoting more population because they have now learned that their birth rate is not enough to propogate their race and support their taxation system that funds their healthcare and social security systems...China is on route to doing the samething, it has already realised its one child policy was a failure and is now legislating to make it more liberal.

See basically this whole "contraception" and population is a BIG FARCE because on one hand countries with large population provide markets but are also leading importers of tax-paying immigrants to these So-called "western" and "contraception-loving" countries !! - If their strategies are so Good then why is every western country looking to import citizens from countries of HIgh birth ??

In other words their is enough of the world for all of us, Man just has to learn to share !!....and if we wont do it then ALLAH swt nature will force us to!

The thing is that Muslims have been foretold this whereas the others are learning through the process of trial and error :biggthumpup:

 

[modern.fakir]

Historically the ratio of women to men has always been higher and even in modern day India, in principle, men have to take care of more than one woman anyways as in Their wife, sister, mother, daughter etc.

Now, why Islam allows multiple marriages is because its human nature !. Even today in non-muslim societies how many husbands cheat on their wives.:biggthumpup:..like that if they could afford to have multiple wives then a single wife would not have to bear to the burden of the husband, or giving birth to a male child as the probability of having a male from 4 wives is much higher and also the fact that widows, women who cant have children, etc are also brought under the protection of a man so that they dont become public property !- Those are a few reasons!

NOw as far as economic stability goes then from a family standpoint having multiple wives also means that they can become earning hands for a "family", in olden days and even in modern day Pakistan i know of a few families where a guy has 3 wives and 2 of his wives earn money from stiching clothes at home while the 3rd one cooks for the entire family. The family is doing very well because of so many earning hands :biggthumpup:...INfact economic stability comes quicker ! Had it been just for the person and his only wife then he would have gotten by with difficulty but his wives earning power gives him the extra edge !

BUt i can agree with you that every culture looks at things differently....but Muslim societies are never over populated in general.

I am trying to think aloud and that is why there are many contradictory things ive said in my earlier post. But this is exactly the problem. What is right for some may be wrong for others. There is also a flip of side of having a higher ratio of females. That they get trafficked or that it breeds the necessity for multiple marriages or polygamy which is precisely the reason it has sanction in Islam. I don't know if the female to male ratio in Arabia was high around the time when Islam came into being but i suspect this to be the reason behind one man being allowed 4 wives. Anyway that is not the point under consideration in the current day and age.
I think there is no easy answer to this conundrum. Whether to just grow unfettered or to control the population through means fair and foul. Muslims are playing it safe for now, but a large family size means it will take them forever to reach some economic stability.
In this day and age where people are hankering after designer babies how far are we from the day when gender selection will be touted as a fundamental right for people.

 

[Rashna]

From what i am given to understand the male has to be able to financially support all his wives. Now if ure saying that multiple wives bring economic stability to that man then how does this work? Also islam (according to my knowledge) has fixed role for the woman which doesn't include earning money for her family? So this sounds very contradictory and naturally all very convenient for the man.
The scene in India is different though. Muslims may not be marrying more than once but their avg family size is very large. And their economic growth will therefore always be stunted unless they have been fortunate to be born in a rich family.

In so far as protecting the female from predators there are again ways this can and is being misused. One night marriages are how some people have interpreted this sanction. How does it benefit the woman in the long term ? Again the system of divorce is totally skewed in the favor of the male. So once he completes his quota of 4 he can divorce any wife and go on. All in all the woman's role is very subservient in this entire story.

Cheating is a different thing and adultery is a different thing. Adultery is a grounds for divorce in every place where law is upheld. In islamic countries adultery(for the woman) is treated rather harshly. Again skewed in man's favor because his multiple marriages are not considered adultery.
Muslim societies aren't over populated in their land of origin maybe but in India they are, look at bangladesh, look at pakistan, look at indonesia.

Historically the ratio of women to men has always been higher and even in modern day India, in principle, men have to take care of more than one woman anyways as in Their wife, sister, mother, daughter etc.

Now, why Islam allows multiple marriages is because its human nature !. Even today in non-muslim societies how many husbands cheat on their wives.:biggthumpup:..like that if they could afford to have multiple wives then a single wife would not have to bear to the burden of the husband, or giving birth to a male child as the probability of having a male from 4 wives is much higher and also the fact that widows, women who cant have children, etc are also brought under the protection of a man so that they dont become public property !- Those are a few reasons!

NOw as far as economic stability goes then from a family standpoint having multiple wives also means that they can become earning hands for a "family", in olden days and even in modern day Pakistan i know of a few families where a guy has 3 wives and 2 of his wives earn money from stiching clothes at home while the 3rd one cooks for the entire family. The family is doing very well because of so many earning hands :biggthumpup:...INfact economic stability comes quicker ! Had it been just for the person and his only wife then he would have gotten by with difficulty but his wives earning power gives him the extra edge !

BUt i can agree with you that every culture looks at things differently....but Muslim societies are never over populated in general.

 

[Mir Jaffer]

This statement seals the fate of the beauty of Islam.....this coming from the horses mouth ...:biggthumpup:

However, India's Muslim population, which belongs largely to lower socio-economic strata, has a higher female sex ratio.

what's ur pb?? r u paid agent??? r a psycho??? u think u r promoting patriotism through India bashing???
world has moved on SON, so u must move-on too. Better concentrate on ur education.

 

[modern.fakir]

The exact ruling is that the Muslim Male "should be fair" with all his wives - not just financially but in all matters. The idea is to strenghten the family and if the woman for that reason has to work then tthat is fully allowed. You have to understand that the idea works for all conditions. In the example of a well off muslim for example the arab sheikhs, then their wives dont have to work and can enjoy a good life without working. But if a Muslim is less fortunate, and both the woman and man agrees then they can still make it work. The idea is the FAMILY can support themselves in a HALAAL way.

And what your forgetting is that the 4 wives scenario is for those muslims who can "be fair with all wives" that means if the man "believes" he can and if the "Woman agrees". You think one set of in-laws is not enough that the 3 others will give their daughters away without due diligence ??:lol:

And if a woman marries a man knowing that she will be the second wife then it is her free will - NO one can Force anyone !

Which is why the majority of muslims have only one wife !

So you see when both the male and the female get full rights their is NO contradiction ?? - Have you ever been to Dubai or Qatar or Malaysia ?? or even turkey ??...Dont misinterpret Pakistans flawed british laws with Islamic law..They are two very different things.

The economic growth of Muslims is not stunted due to family size but more so because of social discrimination. The same muslim does pretty well in saudi arabia, or the middle east or even Pakistan for that matter for the most part. The neglect in areas like thar is political. You can literally see waderas in SUV 4x4 trying to square out their rivalries with the poor, or they are neglected by the corrupt political system - much like is the case in India

See the thing is that abuse occurs in any system as rotten eggs will always be there. How you judge a system is by the strength it offers to the "majority of the population". And by and large even in modern day India and even in western societies - The male has been the protector of the female ! - This is Nature !...and NO amount of legislation can change this.

You obviously are going on the "media interpretation "of Islamic law which is never even close to the truth. The Man can divorce the wife and the woman can ask for a "Khula" or "seperation" Both have rights !- you need to pose the question to a proper Muslim Imam and he will tell you all this.:)

NOt only that if a man divorces his wife he has to pay her alms and Mehr and will not be able to remarry his ex-wife - so their is protection for the woman in this relationship.

The one night marriage you talk about is ONLY a misinterpretation to do the unlawfull in Islam. The idea their is that IF you chose to do something evil - you will find a way to do it. But again this will be an individual action and NOT sanctioned by society. In this case the role of the woman and the man becomes "commercial" and for that their is no subservience but either desire for money or compulsion.

see Islam knows that cheating is bad, which is why it gave an alternate system of second or third marriages. Adultery is defined as a married man indulging with a woman who he is NOT legally married too. Having sex with your wife is and never was adultery. Every major religion and even western countries allow for this :)

And ofcourse the punishment for proper adultry which is intercourse outside the wedlock is severe as Islam never creates an immoral and unjust society that destroys the family structure!. The west tried to do that and see where they are ending up !

Pakistan, Indonesia and even India are NOT over populated - The criminal political and economic systems do not distribute wealth and resources failry. Allah swt has given enough to Man to provide for everything and even more BUT greed is the problem. You know how many trillions indians have in banks overseas ??...I gurantee you if they bring all this wealth back and donate only 2.5 % annually ( which is the zakat minimum) to the poor in India then no one will sleep hungry in India and India will transform into a middle income country rapidly.

what is contradictory in all this ??...The idea covers all spectrums of a society, rich man, poor man, rich woman, poor woman etc..

From what i am given to understand the male has to be able to financially support all his wives. Now if ure saying that multiple wives bring economic stability to that man then how does this work? Also islam (according to my knowledge) has fixed role for the woman which doesn't include earning money for her family? So this sounds very contradictory and naturally all very convenient for the man.
The scene in India is different though. Muslims may not be marrying more than once but their avg family size is very large. And their economic growth will therefore always be stunted unless they have been fortunate to be born in a rich family.

In so far as protecting the female from predators there are again ways this can and is being misused. One night marriages are how some people have interpreted this sanction. How does it benefit the woman in the long term ? Again the system of divorce is totally skewed in the favor of the male. So once he completes his quota of 4 he can divorce any wife and go on. All in all the woman's role is very subservient in this entire story.

Cheating is a different thing and adultery is a different thing. Adultery is a grounds for divorce in every place where law is upheld. In islamic countries adultery(for the woman) is treated rather harshly. Again skewed in man's favor because his multiple marriages are not considered adultery.
Muslim societies aren't over populated in their land of origin maybe but in India they are, look at bangladesh, look at pakistan, look at indonesia.

 

[modern.fakir]

What is your problem dumb *** ...did I invite you here ...you felt like crapping up here for no reason ??....Your a psycho for coming up here and disturbing an intelligent conversation.

India bashing ??....through an article published in a mainstream india newspaper ?? - What kind of a moron are you ?? - If you have brain issues then we have mental asylums for that you know [hilar]

now scat - freaking pegturd !

what's ur pb?? r u paid agent??? r a psycho??? u think u r promoting patriotism through India bashing???
world has moved on SON, so u must move-on too. Better concentrate on ur education.

 

[Rashna]

I think you have yourself identified that this religious model works in the middle east but fails in the Sub-continent. I don't know whether it is viable in other major muslim countries like Indonesia, malaysia, turkey etc.
The primary reason of course is money. The middle east is well off because of oil money and their entertainment is fairly restricted so they might make up for it by marrying 4 times to make their life more complicated. lol.

Where poverty has been a problem for centuries many marriages obviously will not be an answer for any emancipation whether economic or social.
Have u heard of the Muslim Dalit? Well people haven't been able to dis-associate themselves from their penchant for caste. So how do u take out social discrimination when the victims themselves go around seeking sympathy in its name. My biggest grouse against this victim mentality is that they never seem to realize that everybody has to work hard and make it in the world. But to expect that your lack of talent or enterprise be rewarded with freebies because u continue to tag yourself with a caste in a changed society is a kind of blackmail. The same goes for hindu dalits and others who keep clamoring about discrimination. There are brahmins from UP who work as security guards. What economic benefits have they derived due to their caste? But a dalit wants to convert to some other faith for a few freebies or else wants reservations. At the end of the day these freebies or reservations don't really make much difference in their lives but they do deprive a deserving person from reaching his /her potential.

In my assessment about 30-40% of India's population will find it difficult to uplift themselves unless we reach a stage where we can start social security for this population. The rest are already doing good and they represent the resurgent India. This underprivileged population benefits from the role the resurgent population plays in creating wealth in the country. This is the same kind of model which u see in the US although they have benefited by having a manageable population. If india's population was the same as the US where do u think India would be now? So population size does play a role and a very significant role in the fate of a nation. The other extreme is communism where everybody must restrict his or her wants for the greater good. This works for a while but at some point people begin to rebel against this kind of censorship of human enterprise. China outwardly has maintained communism as its poster boy but in reality is now more capitalist than ever before.
So we have your religious model, the capitalist model, and the communist model. In india we have the capitalist and the communist model both. Add to that all this casteist (irrespective of religion)stuff and u have a mish mash of every kind of rebel vying for attention. Among this group the female population from the underprivileged class is even more worse off. This population in fact supports the males by sometimes being the sole bread-earners in the family. Your religious model would fail in this scenario to keep women off the work force.

Your religious model didn't work in Pakistan where you are majority muslim. You have the same issues of haves and have-nots. Your women are maybe not victims of infanticide but they are victims of domestic violence,rape, acid attacks, honor killings, and total neglect in the form of protection by law. And this population time-bomb is ticking away for you too. So your contention that what works in the middle east will work in the sub-continent has been duly trashed by the realities we see around us.

The exact ruling is that the Muslim Male "should be fair" with all his wives - not just financially but in all matters. The idea is to strenghten the family and if the woman for that reason has to work then tthat is fully allowed. You have to understand that the idea works for all conditions. In the example of a well off muslim for example the arab sheikhs, then their wives dont have to work and can enjoy a good life without working. But if a Muslim is less fortunate, and both the woman and man agrees then they can still make it work. The idea is the FAMILY can support themselves in a HALAAL way.

And what your forgetting is that the 4 wives scenario is for those muslims who can "be fair with all wives" that means if the man "believes" he can and if the "Woman agrees". You think one set of in-laws is not enough that the 3 others will give their daughters away without due diligence ??:lol:

And if a woman marries a man knowing that she will be the second wife then it is her free will - NO one can Force anyone !

Which is why the majority of muslims have only one wife !

So you see when both the male and the female get full rights their is NO contradiction ?? - Have you ever been to Dubai or Qatar or Malaysia ?? or even turkey ??...Dont misinterpret Pakistans flawed british laws with Islamic law..They are two very different things.

The economic growth of Muslims is not stunted due to family size but more so because of social discrimination. The same muslim does pretty well in saudi arabia, or the middle east or even Pakistan for that matter for the most part. The neglect in areas like thar is political. You can literally see waderas in SUV 4x4 trying to square out their rivalries with the poor, or they are neglected by the corrupt political system - much like is the case in India

See the thing is that abuse occurs in any system as rotten eggs will always be there. How you judge a system is by the strength it offers to the "majority of the population". And by and large even in modern day India and even in western societies - The male has been the protector of the female ! - This is Nature !...and NO amount of legislation can change this.

You obviously are going on the "media interpretation "of Islamic law which is never even close to the truth. The Man can divorce the wife and the woman can ask for a "Khula" or "seperation" Both have rights !- you need to pose the question to a proper Muslim Imam and he will tell you all this.:)

NOt only that if a man divorces his wife he has to pay her alms and Mehr and will not be able to remarry his ex-wife - so their is protection for the woman in this relationship.

The one night marriage you talk about is ONLY a misinterpretation to do the unlawfull in Islam. The idea their is that IF you chose to do something evil - you will find a way to do it. But again this will be an individual action and NOT sanctioned by society. In this case the role of the woman and the man becomes "commercial" and for that their is no subservience but either desire for money or compulsion.

see Islam knows that cheating is bad, which is why it gave an alternate system of second or third marriages. Adultery is defined as a married man indulging with a woman who he is NOT legally married too. Having sex with your wife is and never was adultery. Every major religion and even western countries allow for this :)

And ofcourse the punishment for proper adultry which is intercourse outside the wedlock is severe as Islam never creates an immoral and unjust society that destroys the family structure!. The west tried to do that and see where they are ending up !

Pakistan, Indonesia and even India are NOT over populated - The criminal political and economic systems do not distribute wealth and resources failry. Allah swt has given enough to Man to provide for everything and even more BUT greed is the problem. You know how many trillions indians have in banks overseas ??...I gurantee you if they bring all this wealth back and donate only 2.5 % annually ( which is the zakat minimum) to the poor in India then no one will sleep hungry in India and India will transform into a middle income country rapidly.

what is contradictory in all this ??...The idea covers all spectrums of a society, rich man, poor man, rich woman, poor woman etc..

 

[modern.fakir]

Where have I stated that it fails in the sub-continent ?. I gave you two examples ..one where the multiple wives were a help for the family and the other where a rich sheikh is supporting all his wives, so this shows how the model works for ANY country in the world and for any circumstance IF the man and the women involved all agree to it in fairness.

You stated contradiction, so where is the contradiction in any of this ?

Then you stated that the system is biased in favour of the man and I stated that IT is the free will of the woman to chose to become someone first, second or third wife and most of the muslims infact marry only one !:biggthumpup:....so how is this favouring the man when the woman is at free will of doing as she pleases.

If a woman can have the free-will of committing ADULTERY in an immoral society then why not Also allow her the free-will of becoming someones second wife ??

Why do the non-muslim societies PUSH immorality and shun marriage ??

why do you want to absolve the male of the burden of caring for the women in return for what he gets ??...why do you want to put the woman at a position of disadvantage ??:biggthumpup:

And which US model are you talking about ??...The one that has collapsed and is on life support already with a 90 trillion in Debt ?? - The system has failed do miserably that the day it fully opens up the US will become the most indebted third world country in the world.

You cannot compare the US to India because the US has a hegemony over the dollar and based on that it is able to achieve some what economic stability. PLus the economy of the states is built on CHEAP MIDDLE EAST OIL, both of these luxuries are not available to India and the capitalist model has ONLY increased Poverty in INdia despite 10 years of economic growth in India.:biggthumpup:

Now, Pakistan does not currently has the FULL Islamic system in Place due to internal interference by foreign countries BUT we are gradually moving towards that. We have already had tad bits of the Islamic system under the mughals and the ottomons BUT Now after our downfall we are again starting to drift back to our Islamic heritage.

It is ONLY a matter of time till we fully revamp the system in Pakistan to bring it inline with what our ancestors did. This however does not have any implications on marriage and wives which is already an established institution to stop immoral behaviour in society.

I mean Pakistan has issues like other countries but we are not the rape capital, or the female infanticide capital or even the open toilet capital of the world!. Indians had time before the mughals as well to develop a system BUT nothing seems to have worked at all, until ofcourse Islam was implemented which made India progress in all fields from economic, architecture, to social and literary heights :biggthumpup:

I think you have yourself identified that this religious model works in the middle east but fails in the Sub-continent. I don't know whether it is viable in other major muslim countries like Indonesia, malaysia, turkey etc.
The primary reason of course is money. The middle east is well off because of oil money and their entertainment is fairly restricted so they might make up for it by marrying 4 times to make their life more complicated. lol.

Where poverty has been a problem for centuries many marriages obviously will not be an answer for any emancipation whether economic or social.
Have u heard of the Muslim Dalit? Well people haven't been able to dis-associate themselves from their penchant for caste. So how do u take out social discrimination when the victims themselves go around seeking sympathy in its name. My biggest grouse against this victim mentality is that they never seem to realize that everybody has to work hard and make it in the world. But to expect that your lack of talent or enterprise be rewarded with freebies because u continue to tag yourself with a caste in a changed society is a kind of blackmail. The same goes for hindu dalits and others who keep clamoring about discrimination. There are brahmins from UP who work as security guards. What economic benefits have they derived due to their caste? But a dalit wants to convert to some other faith for a few freebies or else wants reservations. At the end of the day these freebies or reservations don't really make much difference in their lives but they do deprive a deserving person from reaching his /her potential.

In my assessment about 30-40% of India's population will find it difficult to uplift themselves unless we reach a stage where we can start social security for this population. The rest are already doing good and they represent the resurgent India. This underprivileged population benefits from the role the resurgent population plays in creating wealth in the country. This is the same kind of model which u see in the US although they have benefited by having a manageable population. If india's population was the same as the US where do u think India would be now? So population size does play a role and a very significant role in the fate of a nation. The other extreme is communism where everybody must restrict his or her wants for the greater good. This works for a while but at some point people begin to rebel against this kind of censorship of human enterprise. China outwardly has maintained communism as its poster boy but in reality is now more capitalist than ever before.
So we have your religious model, the capitalist model, and the communist model. In india we have the capitalist and the communist model both. Add to that all this casteist (irrespective of religion)stuff and u have a mish mash of every kind of rebel vying for attention. Among this group the female population from the underprivileged class is even more worse off. This population in fact supports the males by sometimes being the sole bread-earners in the family. Your religious model would fail in this scenario to keep women off the work force.

Your religious model didn't work in Pakistan where you are majority muslim. You have the same issues of haves and have-nots. Your women are maybe not victims of infanticide but they are victims of domestic violence,rape, acid attacks, honor killings, and total neglect in the form of protection by law. And this population time-bomb is ticking away for you too. So your contention that what works in the middle east will work in the sub-continent has been duly trashed by the realities we see around us.