India harping on the same string.. baghal main churi........

sagaciouscorpion

MPA (400+ posts)
India, Pak move forward, step back in two hours
Hours after he and his Pakistani counterpart issued a joint statement that said action on terrorism should not be linked to the composite dialogue, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh insisted there was no change in Indias position that any meaningful dialogue cannot begin without addressing our main concern terrorism.

Pakistani Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani, at his post-summit press conference, said he had told Singh terrorism and the Mumbai attack should not be bracketed with dialogue and that Singh had agreed.

But Singh said he did not agree with Gilanis interpretation. While India believed talks were the only way to improve relations with Pakistan, the starting point of any dialogue will be the issue of terrorism.

We havent compromised on anything and only reaffirmed our position that no dialogue, whether you call it composite or otherwise, is possible without curbing terrorism, Singh said. I have told Gilani that without sustained action against terrorists, acts like Mumbai 26/11 cannot be prevented. Another act like that one is not tolerable.

The joint statement, the product of three hours of negotiations, including a 45-minute meeting between Singh and Gilani, had affirmed that both prime ministers recognised that dialogue is the only way forward. By seeming to delink action on terrorism from the composite dialogue, the impression was India had concluded it would go ahead with talks and be satisfied with Gilanis promise Pakistan would do everything in its power to bring the perpetrators of 26/11 to justice.

Gilani seemed to have that impression. They are satisfied with my commitment that whosoever was behind the Mumbai attack will be brought to justice, he told the media.

Even after it was clear something was being lost in interpretation, Singh seemed to indicate talks would continue no matter what but they would be without substance. So long as Pakistani territory continues to be used for perpetrating acts of terrorism directed against India, I think the dialogue process even if it starts cannot move forward.

The battle of words overshadowed the joint statements other accomplishments. The two sides, for example, agreed to share real-time information on terrorism. Pakistan had also provided India a dossier on its most recent investigations into the Mumbai terror attacks. It was also agreed that the foreign secretaries on both sides would review the scenario from time to time.

While the statement had no direct reference to Kashmir, it became the first bilateral document to have a reference to threats that Pakistan faced in Balochistan. Islamabad has long claimed India is fomenting trouble in its western province. Gilani later spoke of terrorism in Balochistan. Singh said, Gilani told me that his people were telling him that the Indian embassy in that region is indulging in undesirable activities. I told him the embassy had been functioning for many years and, if he had any evidence in this regard, it should be brought to our notice.

The Indian prime minister seemed to be gambling on giving Pakistan free rein and hoping they would deliver more in the future. He said Gilani had told him that there is a common consensus being evolved that action will have to be taken against the Lashkar e Tayyeba founder, Hafiz Mohammad Saeed.

With agency inputs

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... f5c9d5a96b
 

contra

Senator (1k+ posts)
Sahih Bukhari

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 271:
Narrated Jabir:
The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf (i.e. a Jew)." Muhammad bin Maslama replied, "Do you like me to kill him?" The Prophet replied in the affirmative. Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say what I like." The Prophet replied, ""I do (i.e. allow you)."
---------------------------------------------------------
Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered despite putting up a ferocious struggle for his life.

---------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engage
ment/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/05
2.sbt.html
---------------------------------------------------------

Volume 3, Book 49, Number 857:
Narrated Um Kulthum bint Uqba:
That she heard Allah's Apostle saying, "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engage
ment/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/
bukhari/049.sbt.html
==================================

Taqiyyah
In Islam, the practice of concealing one's faith and forgoing ordinary religious duties under threat of death or injury to oneself or one's fellow Muslims. Its basis is found in the Qur'an, and Muhammad is regarded as having set its first example when he chose to make the Hijrah. It has since been practiced mostly among minority groups, particularly those of the Shi'ite branch. Various rules governing its application are meant to ensure that taqiyyah does not become an excuse for cowardice or for failure to take appropriate action. Consideration of community rather than private welfare is generally stressed.

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Taqiyya
 

foqia khan

MPA (400+ posts)
@ contra
:?: :o

Following is the complete hadith shows no pretending of that men who volunteered for the assassination that he turned against Muhammad (pbuh)

Volume:4 Book :52(Fighting for the Cause of Allah (Jihaad)) Number :270 Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has really hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "O Allah's Apostle! Do you like me to kill him?" He replied in the affirmative. So, Muhammad bin Maslama went to him (i.e. Ka'b) and said, "This person (i.e. the Prophet) has put us to task and asked us for charity." Ka'b replied, "By Allah, you will get tired of him." Muhammad said to him, "We have followed him, so we dislike to leave him till we see the end of his affair." Muhammad bin Maslama went on talking to him in this way till he got the chance to kill him.

meaning of charity: money and other voluntary contributions of help for people in need
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volume 3, Book 49, Number 857:
Narrated Um kulthum bint Uqba:
note: it referse nice and selfmade example type words to help in reconciliation between two persons.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Following r some references to understand Taqiyya and the conditions in which it is allow .

Reference 1:

Jalal aj Din al-Suyuti in his book, "al-Durr al-Manthoor Fi al-Tafsir al-Ma'athoor," narrates Ibn Abbas', the MOST renowned and trusted narrator oftradition in the sight of the Sunnis, opinion regarding al-Taqiyya in the
Quranic verse: "Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, (they) shall have no relation left with Allah except by way of precaution ("tat-taqooh"), that ye may guard yourselves ("tooqatan") from them....[3:28]" that Ibn Abbassaid:

"al-Taqiyya is with the tongue only; he who has been COERCED into
saying that which angers Allah (SWT), and his heart is comfortable
(i.e., his TRUE faith has NOT been shaken.), then (saying that which
he has been coerced to say) will NOT harm him (at all); (because) al-
Taqiyya is with the tongue only, (NOT the heart)."

NOTE: The two words "tat-taqooh" and "tooqatan," as mentioned in the Arabic Quran, are BOTH from the same root of "al-Taqiyya."

NOTE ALSO: The "heart" as referred to above and in later occurrences refers to the center of faith in an individual's existence. It is mentioned manytimes in the Quran.




Reference 2:
-----------
Ibn Abbas also commented on the above verse, as narrated in Sunan al-Bayhaqi and Mustadrak al-Hakim, by saying:

"al-Taqiyya is the uttering of the tongue, while the heart is comfortable with faith."

NOTE: The meaning is that the tongue is permitted to utter anything in a time of need, as long as the heart is not affected; and one is still comfortable with faith.




Reference 3:
-----------
Abu Bakr al-Razi in his book, "Ahkam al-Quran," v2, p10, has explainedthe aforementioned verse "...except by way of precaution ("tat-taqooh"),that ye may guard yourselves ("tooqatan") from them....[3:28]" by affirming
that al-Taqiyya should be used when one is afraid for life and/or limb. In addition, he has narrated that Qutadah said with regards to the above verse:

"It is permissible to speak words of unbelief when al-Taqiyya is mandatory."




Reference 4:
-----------
It has been narrated by Abd al-Razak, Ibn Sa'd, Ibn Jarir, Ibn Abi Hatim,Ibn Mardawayh, al-Bayhaqi in his book "al- Dala-il," and it was corrected by al-Hakim in his book "al- Mustadrak" that:

"The nonbelievers arrested `Ammar Ibn Yasir (RA) and (tortured him
until) he (RA) uttered foul words about the Prophet (PBUH&HF), and
praised their gods (idols); and when they released him (RA), he (RA)
went straight to the Prophet (PBUH&HF). The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said:
"Is there something on your mind?" `Ammar Ibn Yasir (RA) said: "Bad
(news)! They would not release me until I defamed you (PBUH&HF) and
praised their gods!" The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "How do you find
your heart to be?" `Ammar (RA) answered: "Comfortable with faith." So
the Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Then if they come back for you, then do
the same thing all over again." Allah (SWT) at that moment revealed
the verse: "....except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in
faith...[16:106]"


NOTE: The full verse that was quoted partially as part of the traditionabove, is: "Any one who, after accepting Faith in Allah, utters unbelief,EXCEPT UNDER COMPULSION, his heart remaining firm in faith -- but such as open their breast to unbelief, -- on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirswill be a dreadful Chastisement [16:106]." (Emphasis Mine)


Reference 5:
-----------
It is narrated in Sunan al-Bayhaqi that Ibn Abbas explained the above verse

"Any one who, after accepting Faith in Allah, utters unbelief....[16:106]"
by saying:

"The meaning that Allah (SWT) is conveying is that he who utters
unbelief after having believed, shall deserve the Wrath of Allah (SWT)
and a terrible punishment. However, those who have been coerced, and
as such uttered with their tongues that which their hearts did not
confirm to escape persecution, have nothing to fear; for Allah (SWT)
holds His (SWT) servants responsible for that which their hearts have
ratified."


Reference 6:
-----------
Another explanation of the above verse is provided by Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti in his book, "al-Durr al-Manthoor Fi al- Tafsir al-Ma-athoor," vol.2, p178; he says:

"Ibn Abi Shaybah, Ibn Jarir, Ibn Munzir, and Ibn Abi Hatim narrated
on the authority of Mujtahid (a man's name) that this verse was
revealed in relation to the following event: A group of people from
Mecca accepted Islam and professed their belief; as a result, the
companions in Medina wrote to them requesting that they emigrate
to Medina; for if they don't do so, they shall not be considered
as those who are among the believers. In compliance, the group left
Mecca, but were soon ambushed by the nonbelievers (Quraish) before
reaching their destination; they were coerced into disbelief, and they
professed it. As a result, the verse "...except under compulsion, his
heart remaining firm in faith [16:106]..." was revealed."



Reference 7:
-----------
Ibn Sa'd in his book, "al-Tabaqat al-Kubra," narrates on the authority of Ibn Sirin that:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) saw `Ammar Ibn Yasir (RA) crying, so he
(PBUH&HF) wiped off his (RA) tears, and said: "The nonbelievers
arrested you and immersed you in water until you said such and such
(i.e., bad-mouthing the Prophet (PBUH&HF) and praising the pagan gods
to escape persecution); if they come back, then say it again."


Reference 8:
-----------
It is narrated in al-Sirah al-Halabiyyah, v3, p61, that:

After the conquest of the city of Khaybar by the Muslims, the Prophet
(PBUH&HF) was approached by Hajaj Ibn `Aalat and told: "O Prophet of
Allah: I have in Mecca some excess wealth and some relatives, and I
would like to have them back; am I excused if I bad-mouth you (to
escape persecution)?" The Prophet (PBUH&HF) excused him and said:
"Say whatever you have to say."


Reference 9:
-----------
It is narrated by al-Ghazzali in his book, "Ihya `Uloom al-Din," that:

Safeguarding of a Muslim's life is a mandatory obligation that should
be observed; and that LYING is permissible when the shedding of a
Muslim's blood is at stake.



Reference 10:
Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti in his book, "al-Ashbah Wa al-Naza'ir," affirms that:

"it is acceptable (for a Muslim) to eat the meat of a dead animal at a
time of great hunger (starvation to the extent that the stomach is
devoid of all food); and to loosen a bite of food (for fear of choking
to death) by alcohol; and to utter words of unbelief; and if one is
living in an environment where evil and corruption are the pervasive
norm, and permissible things (Halal) are the exception and a rarity,
then one can utilize whatever is available to fulfill his needs."

NOTE: The reference to the consumption of a dead animal is meant to illustrate that EVEN forbidden things become permissible in a time of need.



Reference 11:
------------
Narrated in Sahih al-Bukhari, v7, p81, that the Prophet (PBUH&HF) said:

"O `Aisha, the worst of people in the sight of Allah (SWT) are those that are avoided by others due to their extreme impudence."

NOTE: The meaning here is that one is permitted to use diplomacy to getalong with people. The above tradition was narrated when a person sought permission to see the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) and prior to his asking permission the Prophet (PBUH&HF) said that he was not a good man, but stillI shall see him. The Prophet talked to the person with utmost respect, uponwhich Aisha inquired as to why did the Prophet (PBUH&HF) talk to the person
with respect despite his character, upon which the above reply was rendered.


Reference 12:
------------
Narrated in Sahih Muslim (English version), Chapter MLXXVII, v4, p1373,Tradition #6303:

Humaid b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum
daughter of 'Uqba b. Abu Mu'ait, and she was one amongst the first
emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon
him), as saying that she heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon
him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation
amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he
conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was
granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases:
in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the
narration of the words of the husband to wife, and the narration of
the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to
bring reconciliation between them).

The (Sunni) commentator of this volume of Sahih Muslim, Abdul Hamid Siddiqi, provides the following commentary:

Telling of a lie is a grave sin but a Muslim is permitted to tell a lie in some exceptional cases, and this permission is given especially on three occasions: in case of battle for bringing reconciliation amongst the hostile Muslims and for bringing reconciliation between the husband and the wife.



On the analogy [Qiyas] of the three cases, the scholars of Hadith have pointed out some other exemptions:
for saving the life and honor of innocent person from the high handedness of tyrants and oppressors if one
finds no other way to save them.


Notice that neither the above tradition nor the commentary are concerned with dealing with non-Muslims only.




In the light of above all references indian' case doesn't match.
 

taul

Siasat.pk - Blogger
[@ contra

-Why ya'll head is so twisted ,unable to think clearly..who has this term "Taqiyah" instilled in your fool's mind :shock: :shock: Truly me Thinks :roll: :roll: :roll:Who ever has done has been successful in further Alienating you from Truth!!you take it and use it so Out of Context and make it look the way you want it to appear that's pretty bad!!Any how as far as Muslims(Majority)are concerned mostly may be not aware of it(As they DO NOT EVER USE IT).Carry on with the lame and ever changing Wikepedia stuff.
 

jimpack

Minister (2k+ posts)
My Dear Friend Taul

You seem to be aggressive type of guy who is not ready to listen to anything good. You have some set of ideas in your mind and you only by those. Please be more open minded and see things in positive mind. Things are always not the way you want to see or make them happen. Reality does not change because you think that way or you want it they way it will sound good to your ear.

Be positive and take the comments on a constructive way.
 

foqia khan

MPA (400+ posts)
contra said:
foqia bhai,
don't those Hadith prove that he allowed deception?


@ contra

its not deception, a doctor is not allowed to cut an innocent person but when a person is sick and need operation then the doctor is allow to operate the person and save his life....same Taqiyya is not a routine case.It is only allowed in extreme situations (but without hurting the spirit of the faith ) and that is the reason mostly muslims don't know ,what is Taqiyya.
 

taul

Siasat.pk - Blogger
jimpack said:
My Dear Friend Taul

You seem to be aggressive type of guy who is not ready to listen to anything good. You have some set of ideas in your mind and you only by those. Please be more open minded and see things in positive mind. Things are always not the way you want to see or make them happen. Reality does not change because you think that way or you want it they way it will sound good to your ear.

Be positive and take the comments on a constructive way.



-Sir i'm just saying the truth as long as you can play with human lives in Kashmir you have NOT a Single Right to say so!!Do you need any Open Mindedness to Occupy Kashmir!!!Snap out of this day dreaming and start on the real topic and dont make yourself look like complete fools by such assertions that hold no weight what so ever!!Not surprise at all to hear another perverted indian views trying to sing Friendship tune while Carrying on Massacre in Kashmir..you should be ashamed of yourselves,,that's the least you could do!!Another one trying to pinch in for nothing :shock: :shock:
 

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