Ibn Rushd vs Ghazali: Did the Muslim world take a wrong turn?

hammy_lucky

MPA (400+ posts)

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We need to re-kindle the spirit of Ibn Rushd and start a Renaissance in Islamic thought process

I am sure these days many decent Muslim men and women often wonder why countries with Muslim majority are so backwards technologically, militarily and politically compared with the nations of West? What is the reason for this dominance by European and American states and how can we decrease if not eliminate this imbalance?

Only a few hundred years ago Eastern, mostly Muslim, and Western, mostly Christian, societies were more or less at par in the level of development. And then while the Muslim world stood still the West surged ahead and became dominant over the globe.

Around 14th Century started what we call The Renaissance in the West. Literally meaning rebirth, this was a change, among other things, in the political, religious, technological and scientific thought and methods. A change that over the next 300 years transformed the Western world and gave them the ability to launch the Industrial Revolution in the 18th century. Alas such a rebirth never took place in Muslim societies.


The above transformation in the West was preceded by a change in the Western philosophical thought. We can call this a philosophical renaissance.

In conventional Islamic teaching philosophy is not considered favourably; in fact it is often openly discouraged. For philosophy itself promotes questioning, arguing and logic which is potentially in conflict with a belief in an all knowing and all powerful deity.

The Western world once had a similar rejectionist attitude to philosophy and logic.

The ascendency of the West coincided with active study and analysis of the works and methods of Greek philosophers. I have little doubt that without this there would not have been any renaissance and the technological and industrial revolution that has propelled nations of the West to be eons ahead of East, would not have taken place.

Yet the West may not have developed an understanding or even a knowledge of Greek philosophy without the help of Arab/Muslim philosophers. Ironically, the man who can be given the greatest credit for kindling the renascence of the West is a Muslim philosophers named Ibn Rushd, known as Averroes in the West! While he was rejected and marginalized by Muslims, his work was translated and enthusiastically read in Universities of Western Europe. In my opinion this difference in reception to works of Ibn Rushdhas played a significant role in the difference we see between the nations of the West and East.


Ibn Rushd's influence catalysed reformation of both Christian and Jewish religious thought and brought in the concept of rationalism in religion. In the Islamic world he was sidelined by Al-Ghazali and his theocratic concepts of religion (Sharia). This had already happened to the Muslim world by the 12th century AD and as a result while the West started a renaissance in the 14th century, followed by political reformation and finally industrial revolution in the 18th century the Muslims world just stood still or regressed.

Ottoman Turkey, the dominant Muslim power of the time when Western renascence took place (and a major world power till the 18th Century) is a prime example of a failure to establish the type of modern political and economic institutions (the former are needed for the later) that were required for industrial revolution and sustained economic growth leading to prosperity.

Philosophy or falsafa came to the Muslim world in the 9th century AD along with other Greek sciences like medicine, astronomy and mathematics. Tensions between teachings of philosophy and Islam developed more or less immediately. For philosophy not only taught the need for asking questions, even on issues that were thought to be divine commandments and thus not-questionable, but also suggested that it can reveal demonstrative truth about the world using scientific methods: something that was thought to be a power possessed by God alone.

The Muslim philosophers studied Greek masters Plato and Aristotle from early 9th Century AD.

Al-Farabi (Alfarabius in the West, 872-950 AD) from Damascus and Ibn Sina (Avicenna 980-1037 AD) from Cairo were the leading lights in not only translating Greek philosophical ideas into Arabic/Persian but in fact actively added commentaries and development of philosophical ideas based on logic and rationalism.

For a while the Muslim philosophical thoughts derived from Greek philosophy (Falsafa) were allowed to exist unmolested by Orthodox Islam. This was partly due to the fact that Muslim philosophers presented their ideas in a form that did not openly challenge the ideas of orthodoxy and partly because the Muslim world was rather liberal and tolerant of such ideas in those days. However, with the establishment of the Ash'arite system of Kalam around 1040 AD onwards all this tolerance gradually evaporated.

Falsafa was then dealt a stunning blow by Ghazali. In 1095 Ghazali completed his book Tahafut al Falasifa (Incoherence of Philosophers), with this and other writings Ghazali launched a no holds bare attack on not only the ideas expressed by Al-Farabi and Ibn Sina but on them personally declaring that such individuals are heretics (kafirs) and not Muslims!

While Ghazali himself was a man of very high intellect and knowledge his writings derailed the path of Muslim philosophical and scientific development.

Around 1150 AD Ibn Rushdcompleted his book Tahafut al Tahafut(Incoherence of Incoherence) which is rebuttal of Ghazali's book. Rushd also wrote other books to counter Ghazali and defend Greek philosophers and their methods.

Ibn Rushd was also the paramount commentator on the works of Aristotle and Plato. His works had a major influence on the ideas developed by Thomas Aquinas and Mosses Maimonides who are accepted as the scholars who respectively kindled the renascence in Christian and Jewish thought process.

So what exactly was the crucial difference in thought between Ghazali and Ibn Rushd that caused such a deviation between East and West?

Both Ibn Rushd and Ghazali acknowledge the importance of The Quran as an essential guide for anyone who wants to live a meaningful, fulfilling and productive life. Interestingly they both also agree that some parts of the Quran have literal meanings while some are allegorical. In general the text that deals with basic principles of a good life and incidents mentioned which are possible in a normal way have literal meanings while other parts of the text often dealing with supernatural or oblique subjects need interpretation using allegorical and not literal methods. Both Ibn Rushdand Ghazali agree that ordinary Muslims should only concern themselves with the literal part of the Quran and only a selected group of enlightened Muslims should interpret the allegorical parts of the Quran.

The difference between Ibn Rushdand Ghazali is that while Ghazali believes the enlightenment to this select group is achievable only by Divine intervention, Ibn Rushdsuggests that it is the knowledge and expertise in the methods of science and philosophy that empowers individuals to seek and find the hidden treasures of the Quran.

Herein Ibn Rushd lays down the basic principles of science and progress using the Quran as an ideal launch pad . While Ghazali advocates using mystical methods to look for the hidden knowledge and truth Ibn Rushd believes that this is only possible using objective and demonstrative methods i.e. logic and science.

In other words Ghazali believes that through religious mysticism one can achieve (by the grace of God) a level of understanding different from rational truth and only this can unveil the allegorical meanings in the Quran while Ibn Rushd believes that only rational thought can unveil such mysteries.

The importance of this lies in the fact that while both methods are and can be used to search for the ultimate truth, it is only the rational method that produces a desired by-product, namely scientific and human progress.

So what is the importance (if any) this has in our present times?

In my opinion while religious and mystical experiences are important for the development of our inner world and equip ourselves to face the challenges of the real world only by adopting rationalism can we change the deplorable situation of Muslim nations.

We need to re-kindle the spirit of Ibn Rushd and start a Renaissance in Islamic thought process.

# Copied from Aamir butt column.
 
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atensari

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
مسلمانوں کی اکثریت ابن رشد اور امام غزالی کو ان کے نام سے زیادہ نہیں جانتے۔ کم از کم میں انہی مسلمانوں میں سے ہوں۔ مسلمانوں کی موجودہ صورتحال کا ذمہ ان کے سر ڈال دینا حقائق سے چشم پوشی نہیں
 

asadqudsi

Senator (1k+ posts)
By the way only religious seminaries in Islamic world teach logic formally in class room [Mantiq] as opposed to modern schools yet the seminaries produce the so called narrow minded people which does not make sense. Therefore, there is more to Aqal vs Wahi argument than simple rejection of Ibn Rush leading us to darkness.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
By the way only religious seminaries in Islamic world teach logic formally in class room [Mantiq] as opposed to modern schools yet the seminaries produce the so called narrow minded people which does not make sense. Therefore, there is more to Aqal vs Wahi argument than simple rejection of Ibn Rush leading us to darkness.
I didn’t know Religious Seminaries teach Mantiq. Every time I talk to a religious apologist whether Muslim or Christian they are completely ignorant of Mantiq.
 

Wake up Pak

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
What is not taught in schools?

“I have to deplore the systematic manner in which the literature of Europe has contrived to put out of sight our scientific obligations to the Mohammedans. Surely they cannot be much longer hidden. Injustice founded on religious rancour and national conceit cannot be perpetuated forever. [J. W. Draper: The History of the Intellectual Development of Europe, page 356, 2nd Edition, 1864]

What is Taught: The first mention of man in flight was by Roger Bacon, who drew a flying apparatus. Leonardo da Vinci also conceived of airborne transport and drew several prototypes.

What should be Taught:""IBN FIRNAS"" of Islamic Spain invented, constructed and tested a flying machine in the 800’s A.D. Roger Bacon learned of flying machines from Arabic references to Ibn Firnas’ machine. The latter’s invention antedates Bacon by 500 years and Da Vinci by some 700 years.

What is taught: Glass mirrors were first produced in 1291 in Venice.

What should be Taught: Glass mirrors were in use in ""ISLAMIC SPAIN"" as early as the 11th century. The Venetians learned of the art of fine glass production from Syrian artisans during the 9th and 10th centuries.

What is Taught: Until the 14th century, the only type of clock available was the water clock. In 1335, a large mechanical clock was erected in Milan, Italy. This was possibly the first weight-driven clock.

What Should be Taught: A variety of mechanical clocks were produced BY SPANISH MUSLIM ENGINEERS, both large and small, and this knowledge was transmitted to Europe through Latin translations of Islamic books on mechanics. These clocks were weight-driven. Designs and illustrations of epi-cyclic and segmental gears were provided. One such clock included a mercury escapement. The latter type was directly copied by Europeans during the 15th century. In addition, during the 9th century, IBN FIRNAS of Islamic Spain, according to Will Durant, invented a watch-like device which kept accurate time. The Muslims also constructed a variety of highly accurate astronomical clocks for use in their observatories.

What is Taught: In the 17th century, the pendulum was developed by Galileo during his teenage years. He noticed a chandelier swaying as it was being blown by the wind. As a result, he went home and invented the pendulum.

What Should be Taught: The pendulum was discovered by ""IBN YUNUS AL-MASRI""" during the 10th century, who was the first to study and document its oscillatory motion. Its value for use in clocks was introduced by Muslim physicists during the 15th century.

What is Taught: Movable type and the printing press was invented in the West by Johannes Gutenberg of Germany during the 15th century.

What Should be Taught: In 1454, Gutenberg developed the most sophisticated printing press of the Middle Ages. However, movable brass type was in use in Islamic Spain 100 years prior, and that is where the West’s first printing devices were made.

What is Taught: Isaac Newton’s 17th century study of lenses, light and prisms forms the foundation of the modern science of optics .

What Should be Taught: In the 1lth century"" AL-HAYTHAM"" determined virtually everything that Newton advanced regarding optics centuries prior and is regarded by numerous authorities as the “founder of optics. ” There is little doubt that Newton was influenced by him. Al-Haytham was the most quoted physicist of the Middle Ages. His works were utilized and quoted by a greater number of European scholars during the 16th and 17th centuries than those of Newton and Galileo combined.

What is Taught: Isaac Newton, during the 17th century, discovered that white light consists of various rays of colored light.

What Should be Taught: This discovery was made in its entirety BY AL-HAYTHAM (11th century) and ""Kamal ad-Din"" (14th century). Newton did make original discoveries, but this was not one of them.

What is Taught: The concept of the finite nature of matter was first introduced by Antione Lavoisier during the 18th century. He discovered that, although matter may change its form or shape, its mass always remains the same. Thus, for instance, if water is heated to steam, if salt is dissolved in water or if a piece of wood is burned to ashes, the total mass remains unchanged.

What Should be Taught: The principles of this discovery were elaborated centuries before by Islamic Persia’s great scholar, """AL-BIRUNI"""" (d. 1050). Lavoisier was a disciple of the Muslim chemists and physicists and referred to their books frequently.

What is Taught: The Greeks were the developers of TRIGONOMETRY.

What Should be Taught: Trigonometry remained largely a theoretical science among the Greeks. It was developed to a level of modern perfection by Muslim scholars, although the weight of the credit must be given to ""al-Battani"". The words describing the basic functions of this science, sine, cosine and tangent, are all derived from Arabic terms. Thus, original contributions by the Greeks in trigonometry were minimal.

What is Taught: The use of decimal fractions in mathematics was first developed by a Dutchman, Simon Stevin, in 1589. He helped advance the mathematical sciences by replacing the cumbersome fractions, for instance, 1/2, with decimal fractions, for example, 0.5.

What Should be Taught: Muslim mathematicians were the first to utilize decimals instead of fractions on a large scale. ""AL-KASHI’S"" book, Key to Arithmetic, was written at the beginning of the 15th century and was the stimulus for the systematic application of decimals to whole numbers and fractions thereof. It is highly probably that Stevin imported the idea to Europe from al-Kashi’s work.

What is Taught: The first man to utilize algebraic symbols was the French mathematician, Francois Vieta. In 1591, he wrote an algebra book describing equations with letters such as the now familiar x and y’s. Asimov says that this discovery had an impact similar to the progression from Roman numerals to Arabic numbers.

What Should be Taught: Muslim mathematicians, the inventors of algebra, introduced the concept of using letters for unknown variables in equations as early as the 9th century A.D. Through this system, they solved a variety of complex equations, including quadratic and cubic equations. They used symbols to develop and perfect the binomial theorem.

What is Taught: The difficult cubic equations (x to the third power) remained unsolved until the 16th century when Niccolo Tartaglia, an Italian mathematician, solved them.

What Should be Taught: CUBIC EQUATIONS as well as numerous equations of even higher degrees were solved with ease by Muslim mathematicians as early as the 10th century.

What is Taught: The concept that numbers could be less than zero, that is negative numbers, was unknown until 1545 when Geronimo Cardano introduced the idea.

What Should he Taught: Muslim mathematicians introduced negative numbers for use in a variety of arithmetic functions at least 400 years prior to Cardano.

What is Taught: In 1614, John Napier invented logarithms and logarithmic tables.

What Should be Taught: Muslim mathematicians invented LOGARITHMS and produced logarithmic tables several centuries prior. Such tables were common in the Islamic world as early as the 13th century.

What is Taught: During the 17th century Rene Descartes made the discovery that algebra could be used to solve geometrical problems. By this, he greatly advanced the science of geometry.

What Should be Taught: Mathematicians of the Islamic Empire accomplished precisely this as early as the 9th century A.D. THABIT BIN QURRAH was the first to do so, and he was followed by ABU’L WAFA, whose 10th century book utilized algebra to advance geometry into an exact and simplified science.

What is Taught: Isaac Newton, during the 17th century, developed the binomial theorem, which is a crucial component for the study of algebra.

What Should be Taught: Hundreds of Muslim mathematicians utilized and perfected the binomial theorem. They initiated its use for the systematic solution of ALGEBRAIC problems during the 10th century (or prior).

What is Taught: No improvement had been made in the astronomy of the ancients during the Middle Ages regarding the motion of planets until the 13th century. Then Alphonso the Wise of Castile (Middle Spain) invented the Aphonsine Tables, which were more accurate than Ptolemy’s.

What Should be Taught: MUSLIM ASTRONOMERS made numerous improvements upon Ptolemy’s findings as early as the 9th century. They were the first astronomers to dispute his archaic ideas. In their critic of the Greeks, they synthesized proof that the sun is the center of the solar system and that the orbits of the earth and other planets might be elliptical. They produced hundreds of highly accurate astronomical tables and star charts. Many of their calculations are so precise that they are regarded as contemporary. The Alphonsine Tables are little more than copies of works on astronomy transmitted to Europe via Islamic Spain, i.e. the Toledo Tables.

What is Taught: The English scholar Roger Bacon (d. 1292) first mentioned glass lenses for improving vision. At nearly the same time, eyeglasses could be found in use both in China and Europe.

What Should be Taught: IBN FIRNAS of Islamic Spain invented eyeglasses during the 9th century, and they were manufactured and sold throughout Spain for over two centuries. Any mention of eyeglasses by Roger Bacon was simply a regurgitation of the work of AL-HAYTHAM (d. 1039), who’s research Bacon frequently referred to.

What is Taught: Gunpowder was developed in the Western world as a result of Roger Bacon’s work in 1242. The first usage of gunpowder in weapons was when the Chinese fired it from bamboo shoots in attempt to frighten Mongol conquerors. They produced it by adding sulfur and charcoal to saltpeter.

What Should be Taught: The Chinese developed saltpeter for use in fireworks and knew of no tactical military use for gunpowder, nor did they invent its formula. Research by Reinuad and Fave have clearly shown that gunpowder was formulated initially by Muslim chemists. Further, these historians claim that the Muslims developed the first fire-arms. Notably, Muslim armies USED GRENADES and other weapons in their defence of Algericus against the Franks during the 14th century. Jean Mathes indicates that the Muslim rulers had stock-piles of grenades, rifles, crude cannons, incendiary devices, sulfur bombs and pistols decades before such devices were used in Europe. The first mention of cannon was in an Arabic text around 1300 A.D. Roger Bacon learned of the formula for gunpowder from Latin translations of Arabic books. He brought forth nothing original in this regard.

What is Taught: The compass was invented by the Chinese who may have been the first to use it for navigational purposes sometime between 1000 and 1100 A.D. The earliest reference to its use in navigation was by the Englishman, Alexander Neckam (1157-1217).

What Should be Taught: Muslim geographers and NAVIGATORS Learned of the magnetic needle, possibly from the Chinese, and were the first to use magnetic needles in navigation. They invented the compass and passed the knowledge of its use in navigation to the West. European navigators relied on Muslim pilots and their instruments when exploring unknown territories. Gustav Le Bon claims that the magnetic needle and compass were entirely invented by the Muslims and that the Chinese had little to do with it. Neckam, as well as the Chinese, probably learned of it from Muslim traders. It is noteworthy that the Chinese improved their navigational expertise after they began interacting with the Muslims during the 8th century.

What is Taught: The first man to classify the races was the German Johann F. Blumenbach, who divided mankind into white, yellow, brown, black and red peoples.

What Should be Taught: Muslim scholars of the 9th through 14th centuries invented the science of ethnography. A number of Muslim geographers classified the races, writing detailed explanations of their unique cultural habits and physical appearances. They wrote thousands of pages on this subject. Blumenbach’s works were insignificant in comparison.

What is Taught: The science of geography was revived during the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries when the ancient works of Ptolemy were discovered. The Crusades and the Portuguese/Spanish expeditions also contributed to this reawakening. The first scientifically- based treatise on geography were produced during this period by Europe’s scholars.

What Should be Taught: Muslim geographers produced untold volumes of books on the geography of Africa, Asia, India, China and the Indies during the 8th through 15th centuries. These writings included the world’s first geographical encyclopedias, almanacs and road maps. IBN BATTUTAH’S 14 th century masterpieces provide a detailed view of the geography of the ancient world. The Muslim geographers of the 10th through 15th centuries far exceeded the output by Europeans regarding the geography of these regions well into the 18th century. The Crusades led to the destruction of educational institutions, their scholars and books. They brought nothing substantive regarding geography to the Western world.

What is Taught: Robert Boyle, in the 17th century, originated the science of chemistry.

What Should be Taught: A variety of Muslim chemists, including AR-RAZI, AL-JABR, AL-BIRUNI AND AL-KINDI, performed scientific experiments in chemistry some 700 years prior to Boyle. Durant writes that the Muslims introduced the experimental method to this science. Humboldt regards the Muslims as the founders of chemistry.

What is Taught: Leonardo da Vinci (16th century) fathered the science of geology when he noted that fossils found on mountains indicated a watery origin of the earth.

What Should be Taught: Al-Biruni (1lth century) made precisely this observation and added much to it, including a huge book on geology, hundreds of years before Da Vinci was born. IBN SINA noted this as well (see pages 100-101). it is probable that Da Vinci first learned of this concept from Latin translations of Islamic books. He added nothing original to their findings.

What is Taught: The first mention of the geological formation of valleys was in 1756, when Nicolas Desmarest proposed that they were formed over long periods of time by streams.

What Should be Taught: Ibn Sina and al-Biruni made precisely this discovery during the 11th century (see pages 102 and 103), fully 700 years prior to Desmarest.

What is Taught: Galileo (17th century) was the world’s first great experimenter.

What Should be Taught: Al-Biruni (d. 1050) was the world’s first great experimenter. He wrote over 200 books, many of which discuss his precise experiments. His literary output in the sciences amounts to some 13,000 pages, far exceeding that written by Galileo or, for that matter, Galileo and Newton combined.

What is Taught: The Italian Giovanni Morgagni is regarded as the father of pathology because he was the first to correctly describe the nature of disease.

What Should be Taught: Islam’s surgeons were the first pathologists. They fully realized the nature of disease and described a variety of diseases to modern detail. IBN ZUHR correctly described the nature of pleurisy, tuberculosis and pericarditis. AZ-ZAHRAWI accurately documented the pathology of hydrocephalus (water on the brain) and other congenital diseases. IBN AL-QUFF AND IBN AN-NAFS gave perfect descriptions of the diseases of circulation. Other Muslim surgeons gave the first accurate descriptions of certain malignancies, including cancer of the stomach, bowel and esophagus. These surgeons were the originators of pathology, not Giovanni Morgagni.

What is Taught: Paul Ehrlich (19th century) is the originator of drug chemotherapy, that is the use of specific drugs to kill microbes.

What Should be Taught: Muslim physicians used a variety of specific substances to destroy microbes. They applied sulfur topically specifically to kill the scabies mite. AR-RAZI (10th century) used mercurial compounds as topical antiseptics.

What is Taught: Purified alcohol, made through distillation, was first produced by Arnau de Villanova, a Spanish alchemist, in 1300 A.D.

What Should be Taught: Numerous Muslim chemists produced medicinal-grade alcohol through distillation as early as the 10th century and manufactured on a large scale the first distillation devices for use in chemistry. They used alcohol as a solvent and antiseptic.

What is Taught: The first surgery performed under inhalation anesthesia was conducted by C.W. Long, an American, in 1845.

What Should be Taught: Six hundred years prior to Long, Islamic Spain’s AZ-ZAHRAWI AND IBN ZUHR, among other Muslim surgeons, performed hundreds of surgeries under inhalation anesthesia with the use of narcotic-soaked sponges which were placed over the face.

What is Taught: During the 16th century Paracelsus invented the use of opium extracts for anesthesia.

What Should be Taught: Muslim physicians introduced the anesthetic value of opium derivatives during the Middle Ages. Opium was originally used as an anesthetic agent by the Greeks. Paracelus was a student of Ibn Sina’s works from which it is almost assured that he derived this idea.

What is Taught: Modern anesthesia was invented in the 19th century by Humphrey Davy and Horace Wells.

What Should be Taught: Modern anesthesia was discovered, mastered and perfected by Muslim anesthetists 900 years before the advent of Davy and Wells. They utilized oral as well as inhalant anesthetics.

What is Taught: The concept of quarantine was first developed in 1403. In Venice, a law was passed preventing strangers from entering the city until a certain waiting period had passed. If, by then, no sign of illness could be found, they were allowed in.

What Should be Taught: The concept of quarantine was first introduced in the 7th century A.D. by the prophet Muhammad, who wisely warned against entering or leaving a region suffering from plague. As early as the 10th century, Muslim physicians innovated the use of isolation wards for individuals suffering with communicable diseases.

What is Taught: The scientific use of antiseptics in surgery was discovered by the British surgeon Joseph Lister in 1865.

What Should be Taught: As early as the 10th century, MUSLIM PHYSICIANS AND SURGEONS were applying purified alcohol to wounds as an antiseptic agent. Surgeons in Islamic Spain utilized special methods for maintaining ANTISEPSIS prior to and during surgery. They also originated specific protocols for maintaining hygiene during the post-operative period. Their success rate was so high that dignitaries throughout Europe came to Cordova, Spain, to be treated at what was comparably the “Mayo Clinic” of the Middle Ages.

What is Taught: In 1545, the scientific use of surgery was advanced by the French surgeon Ambroise Pare. Prior to him, surgeons attempted to stop bleeding through the gruesome procedure of searing the wound with boiling oil. Pare stopped the use of boiling oils and began ligating arteries. He is considered the “father of rational surgery.” Pare was also one of the first Europeans to condemn such grotesque “surgical” procedures as trepanning (see reference #6, pg. 110).

What Should be Taught: Islamic Spain’s illustrious surgeon, az-Zahrawi (d. 1013), began ligating arteries with fine sutures over 500 years prior to Pare. He perfected the use of CATGUT that is suture made from animal intestines. Additionally, he instituted the use of cotton plus wax to plug bleeding wounds. The full details of his works were made available to Europeans through Latin translations.

Despite this, barbers and herdsmen continued be the primary individuals practicing the “art” of surgery for nearly six centuries after az-Zahrawi’s death. Pare himself was a barber, albeit more skilled and conscientious than the average ones.

Included in AZ-ZAHRAWI’S legacy are dozens of books. His most famous work is a 30 volume treatise on medicine and surgery. His books contain sections on preventive medicine, nutrition, cosmetics, drug therapy, surgical technique, anesthesia, pre and post-operative care as well as drawings of some 200 surgical devices, many of which he invented. The refined and scholarly az-Zahrawi must be regarded as the father and founder of rational surgery, not the uneducated Pare.

What is Taught: William Harvey, during the early 17th century, discovered that blood circulates. He was the first to correctly describe the function of the heart, arteries and veins. Rome’s Galen had presented erroneous ideas regarding the circulatory system, and Harvey was the first to determine that blood is pumped throughout the body via the action of the heart and the venous valves. Therefore, he is regarded as the founder of human physiology.

What Should be Taught: In the 10th century, Islam’s ar-Razi wrote an in-depth treatise on the venous system, accurately describing the function of the veins and their valves. Ibn an-Nafs and Ibn al-Quff (13th century) provided full documentation that the blood circulates and correctly described the physiology of the heart and the function of its valves 300 years before Harvey. William Harvey was a graduate of Italy’s famous Padua University at a time when the majority of its curriculum was based upon Ibn Sina’s and ar-Razi’s textbooks.

What is Taught: The first pharmacopeia (book of medicines) was published by a German scholar in 1542. According to World Book Encyclopedia, the science of pharmacology was begun in the 1900’s as an off-shoot of chemistry due to the analysis of crude plant materials. Chemists, after isolating the active ingredients from plants, realized their medicinal value.

What Should be Taught: According to the eminent scholar of Arab history, Phillip Hitti, the Muslims, not the Greeks or Europeans, wrote the first “modern” pharmacopeia. The science of pharmacology was originated by Muslim physicians during the 9th century. They developed it into a highly refined and exact science. Muslim chemists, pharmacists and physicians produced thousands of drugs and/or crude herbal extracts one thousand years prior to the supposed birth of pharmacology. During the 14th century IBN BAYTAR wrote a monumental pharmacopeia listing some 1400 different drugs. Hundreds of other pharmacopeias were published during the Islamic Era. It is likely that the German work is an offshoot of that by Ibn Baytar, which was widely circulated in Europe.

What is Taught: The discovery of the scientific use of drugs in the treatment of specific diseases was made by Paracelsus, the Swiss-born physician, during the 16th century. He is also credited with being the first to use practical experience as a determining factor in the treatment of patients rather than relying exclusively on the works of the ancients.

What Should be Taught: AR-RAZI, IBN SINA, AL-KINDI, IBN RUSHD, AZ -ZAHRAWI, IBN ZUHR, IBN BAYTAR, IBN AL-JAZZAR, IBN JULJUL, IBN AL-QUFF, IBN AN-NAFS, AL-BIRUNI, IBN SAHL and hundreds of other Muslim physicians mastered the science of drug therapy for the treatment of specific symptoms and diseases. In fact, this concept was entirely their invention. The word “drug” is derived from Arabic. Their use of practical experience and careful observation was extensive. Muslim physicians were the first to criticize ancient medical theories and practices. Ar-Razi devoted an entire book as a critique of Galen’s anatomy. The works of Paracelsus are insignificant compared to the vast volumes of medical writings and original findings accomplished by the medical giants of Islam.

What is Taught: The first sound approach to the treatment of disease was made by a German, Johann Weger, in the 1500’s.

What Should be Taught: Harvard’s George Sarton says that modern medicine is entirely an Islamic development and that Setting the Record Straight the Muslim physicians of the 9th through 12th centuries were precise, scientific, rational and sound in their approach. Johann Weger was among thousands of Europeans physicians during the 15th through 17th centuries who were taught the medicine of ar-Razi and Ibn Sina. He contributed nothing original.

What is Taught: Medical treatment for the insane was modernized by Philippe Pinel when in 1793 he operated France’s first insane asylum.

What Should be Taught: As early as the 1lth century, Islamic hospitals maintained special wards for the insane. They treated them kindly and presumed their disease was real at a time when the insane were routinely burned alive in Europe as witches and sorcerers.
"The bewitched" were taken for mental illness and, for the first time in history, the mentally ill were treated with supportive care, drugs and psychotherapy. Every major Islamic city maintained an insane asylum where patients were treated at no charge. In fact, the Islamic system for the treatment of the insane excels in comparison to the current model, as it was more humane and was highly effective as well.

What is Taught: Kerosine was first produced by the an Englishman, Abraham Gesner, in 1853. He distilled it from asphalt.

What Should be Taught: Muslim chemists produced KEROSINE as a distillate from petroleum products over 1,000 years prior to Gesner (see Encyclopaedia Britannica under the heading, Petroleum).
 

Cyber_Security

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
How can a Muslim follow Greek philosophers such as Aristotle?
Islam is not a religion like Christianity but a Deen, It gives the philosophy of how to live your life (which is quite contrary to the ancient philosophers). When I did undergraduate studies at Sydney uni, I studied Utilitarianism, Kantian ethics, Agent centered theories. In Agent centered ethics (virtuous ethics), Aristotle explained that a virtuous person would not kill another person. In Islam, one good person can kill a non-Muslim virtuous person in a battle. This is just one example.

See, the West was also in the dark until they separated church from the state.
It is not possible in our religion.

What it has got to do with advancement? Everything. Yesterday's right is today's wrong. yesterday's wrong is today's right.

You must watch this video. to understand my point. This is the best TED x Talks video I have ever seen.



 

asadqudsi

Senator (1k+ posts)
I didn’t know Religious Seminaries teach Mantiq. Every time I talk to a religious apologist whether Muslim or Christian they are completely ignorant of Mantiq.

Sir Ji, Mantiq is part of Dars e nizami at least in Sub continent. it is in heavily arabicised/persianized urdu with mainly focus on deductive reasoning , which I don't know how many poor souls understand. Like regular schools students probably just cram and pass exams. I don't believe the intent is to help develop critical thinking rather used to dogmatized the respective position of the firqa the madarasa belongs to .
 

hammy_lucky

MPA (400+ posts)
By the way only religious seminaries in Islamic world teach logic formally in class room [Mantiq] as opposed to modern schools yet the seminaries produce the so called narrow minded people which does not make sense. Therefore, there is more to Aqal vs Wahi argument than simple rejection of Ibn Rush leading us to darkness.
Western education system is not like our RATTA system. Western system promotes critical thinking and deductive reasoning which are keys to progression. Even in our society you will find O level students having intellectual capabilities much better.
Its the mindset, beliefs and intellect which bring change in societies and people.
Unfortunately our society doesnt promote questioning and debate. And this very problem is not helped by the blind accceptance of the Molvi’s version of Islam.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Western education system is not like our RATTA system. Western system promotes critical thinking and deductive reasoning which are keys to progression. Even in our society you will find O level students having intellectual capabilities much better.
Its the mindset, beliefs and intellect which bring change in societies and people.
Unfortunately our society doesnt promote questioning and debate. And this very problem is not helped by the blind accceptance of the Molvi’s version of Islam.

I did O levels in Pakistan. Islamiat is compulsory O level subject but critical thinking is not compulsory. I took critical thinking because it was requirement for Oxford University.

Pakistani society want to teach you what to think but not how to think.

Couple days ago I was reading in the news that Lahore High Court gave order block youtube channels where people criticize judiciary and arrest those people. The Chief Justice of LHC said is it freedom of speech to abuse judiciary?

This is height of ignorance in our society that even the highest educated person such as chief justice doesnt understand that the whole concept of freedom of speech is that the weakest person in society can abuse/mock/criticize the biggest Firoun in the country without being physically harmed, that is freedom of speech. No one ever needed freedom of speech to say good things about anyone.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Sir Ji, Mantiq is part of Dars e nizami at least in Sub continent. it is in heavily arabicised/persianized urdu with mainly focus on deductive reasoning , which I don't know how many poor souls understand. Like regular schools students probably just cram and pass exams. I don't believe the intent is to help develop critical thinking rather used to dogmatized the respective position of the firqa the madarasa belongs to .

Yeah I would be very suprised if they understand mantaq. Even in best schools in Karachi students dont even know there is such thing as Mantaq, critical thinking, logic and reasoning.

I didnt even know what it was when I signed up for it in O levels, I had to do it privately because no school had teachers that taught it as a class and I only took it because it was requirement for undergrad admissions in Oxford.

I was an ordinary upper middle class moderate Sunni Muslim like most other people in Defense area. But when I took more philosophy classes in Western Universities that raised big red flags about religions. They didnt talk about religion, but they talked about how to reason and think.

It made me feel like this is the reason why they dont want to teach it in Pakistan because more people might doubt organized religions and it could hurt the balance in the country and cause instability or anarchy. This is probably why Pakistani Military has supported Islamists and Extremists such as Mullah Omar and Khadim Rizvi. Its a tool they are using to keep the status quo and balance.

The good news is that the more religious the society, the faster secularism grows in that society. There is recent survey after 40 years of Mullahism in Iran, only around 30% of Iranians identify with Islam rest have left Islam. Probably the first country in the middle east after Israel that is not a Muslim majority country. Pakistan has been more religious than India and Pakistan is seeing a bigger movement of atheists, rationalists and freethinkers than India, so Pakistan might develop its society faster than India does.


 

Cyber_Security

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I did O levels in Pakistan. Islamiat is compulsory O level subject but critical thinking is not compulsory. I took critical thinking because it was requirement for Oxford University.

Pakistani society want to teach you what to think but not how to think.

Couple days ago I was reading in the news that Lahore High Court gave order block youtube channels where people criticize judiciary and arrest those people. The Chief Justice of LHC said is it freedom of speech to abuse judiciary?

This is height of ignorance in our society that even the highest educated person such as chief justice doesnt understand that the whole concept of freedom of speech is that the weakest person in society can abuse/mock/criticize the biggest Firoun in the country without being physically harmed, that is freedom of speech. No one ever needed freedom of speech to say good things about anyone.
I don't want to offend you, but I doubt that you ever went to Oxford University. The only reason I am doubting it because you have some common grammatical errors in your English. An Oxford graduate will never make such errors.

For example, you wrote "Pakistani society want to teach " instead of " Pakistani society wants to teach " Also your articles are all over the place, for example, you wrote " it was requirement for Oxford " instead of " it was a requirement for Oxford " You also wrote " "Couple days ago" instead of " Couple of days ago ". then you wrote " Lahore High Court gave order block youtube channels " instead of " Lahore High Court gave order to block youtube channels "
In a few lines, you made about 8 or 9 grammatical errors. Any way it is my understanding that to get to Oxford one has to have the basic capability to speak and write English. I may be wrong. If you did go to Oxford then my apology.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
See, the West was also in the dark until they separated church from the state.
It is not possible in our religion.

Thats the big elephant in the room. On the one side there are Pakistani atheist who say the solution is leave Islam. On the other side there are modern moderates and Quranists like Ghamdi, Tarik Fateh and some other rascals who say reform Islam. The problem is that Islam cannot be reformed because unlike other religions, its not easy to change the Quran.

One thing is for sure, the current status quo is going to drive us into the ground. 120 years ago in 1900 the GDP per capita of UK was $5,400,
In 2021 Pakistan's GDP per capita is $1,300. We are a working model for a Failed Islamist Nuclear Armed State.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I don't want to offend you, but I doubt that you ever went to Oxford University. The only reason I am doubting it because you have some common grammatical errors in your English. An Oxford graduate will never make such errors.

For example, you wrote "Pakistani society want to teach " instead of " Pakistani society wants to teach " Also your articles are all over the place, for example, you wrote " it was requirement for Oxford " instead of " it was a requirement for Oxford " In a few lines you made about 6 or 7 grammatical errors. Any way it is my understanding that to get to Oxford one has to have the basic capability to speak and write English. I may be wrong. If you did go to Oxford then my apology.

I am replying to threads with what limited time I have so expect typos/Grammatical mistakes in responses and I am not going to apologize, I am not writing an English Essay here that is going to be graded by Miss Lewis Carroll.
 

Cyber_Security

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Western education system is not like our RATTA system. Western system promotes critical thinking and deductive reasoning which are keys to progression. Even in our society you will find O level students having intellectual capabilities much better.
Its the mindset, beliefs and intellect which bring change in societies and people.
Unfortunately our society doesnt promote questioning and debate. And this very problem is not helped by the blind accceptance of the Molvi’s version of Islam.
you wrote " Unfortunately our society doesnt promote questioning and debate. "


You are wrong, No religion will allow critical thinking.

Why do you ask questions?

You question to explore an answer.
But
Religions tell you that they have all the answers, which are absolue truth which you must accept.

If you don't accept them then you lose faith and you commit blasphemy.

Religious answers are absolute truth, which is contrary to the definition of critical thinking. Copernicus questioned if the sun revolves around the earth,
He found that it was not true. A new answer changed the science books. You can't do that with religion. Religion gives the answer, Just accept it.

Everything has to be made by someone, that's why God must exist. Then who made God? Religion will tell you to have faith and accept that he always existed.
Your critical thinking tells you that God would have also been made by some other God, but having such a belief due to critical thinking means you are out of the religion and you have committed blasphemy.

You ask religion, what causes the earthquakes, You found in Islam that it is due to bad character, you do critical thinking and realize that earthquakes happen due to scientific reasons. Earthquakes also take place under the ocean, why, Do the fish sleep around that causes the earthquake under the ocean?
Your critical thinking tells you that earthquakes have nothing to do with bad character, there you go. You have just committed blasphemy by denying religion Islam.

So my point is, there is no room for questioning in any religion. Just accept it,
Ask the questions if you like but you must accept the answer because they are absolute truths.


Science is all about questioning.

This is the reason most scientists (Not all) are either atheist or agnostic.
 
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Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
you wrote " Unfortunately our society doesnt promote questioning and debate. "

THINK, THINK

You are wrong, No religion will allow critical thinking.

Why do you ask questions?

You question to explore an answer.
But
Religions tell you that they have all the answers, which are absolue truth which you must accept.

If you don't accept them then you lose faith and you commit blasphemy.

Religious answers are absolute truth, which is contrary to the definition of critical thinking. Copernicus questioned if the sun revolves around the earth,
He found that it was not true. A new answer changed the science books. You can't do that with religion. Religion gives the answer, Just accept it.

Everything has to be made by someone, that's why God must exist. Then who made God? Religion will tell you to have faith and accept that he always existed.
Your critical thinking tells you that God would have also been made by some other God, but having such a belief due to critical thinking means you are out of the religion and you have committed blasphemy.

You ask religion, what causes the earthquakes, You found in Quran that it is due to bad character, you do critical thinking and realize that earthquakes happen due to scientific reasons. Earthquakes also take place under the ocean, why, Do the fish sleep around that causes the earthquake under the ocean?
Your critical thinking tells you that earthquakes have nothing to do with bad character, there you go. You have just committed blasphemy by denying Quran.

So my point is, there is no room for questioning in any religion. Just accept it,
Ask the questions if you like but you must accept the answer because they are absolute truths.


Science is all about questioning.

This is the reason most scientists (Not all) are either atheist or agnostic.

Church in Europe put a nail in it’s own coffin in by introducing Greek logic as part of their curriculum. They were trying to prove god using logical arguments and gave up on it after their own pastors were tearing those arguments apart with logic they learned from their own religious education.

Atheists of that time must have had quite a time after 1755 Lisbon Earthquake on All Saints Day when most people had gathered in Churches. The tremors caused the heavy dome to fall and crush all the pious worshippers underneath, who ever was left was swept away by the tsunami that followed and to put the icing on the cake the rest of the worshippers were burnt in the fire that ensued.

God however had mercy on the vilest creatures of Lisbon and spared the red light district of Lisbon where all those people who had the disgrace to visit brothels on the holiest day of the year were indulging themselves.

Same things happens to people who go on pilgrimage to Makkah every now and then thousands of worshippers are trampled to death in stampedes at stoning the devil ritual not including those who were crushed under the Crain and Saudi govt had to bring bulldozers to gather all the bodies. Total Death tolls from these events must be in tens of thousands only in last few decades. Some of the other bizarre ways people died during hajj other than the 20 babies that died due to miscarriages due to exhaustion, 77 pilgrims were killed in 2009, out of all things caused by floods... How the hell do you die of a flood in a desert like Makkah?

It seems God has a certain animosity with worshippers and pilgrims.
 
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Cyber_Security

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Church in Europe put a nail in it’s own coffin in by introducing Greek logic as part of their curriculum. They were trying to prove god using logical arguments and gave up on it after their own pastors were tearing those arguments apart with logic they learned from their own religious education.

Atheists of that time must have had quite a time after 1755 Lisbon Earthquake on All Saints Day when most people had gathered in Churches. The tremors caused the heavy dome to fall and crush all the pious worshippers underneath, who ever was left was swept away by the tsunami that followed and to put the icing on the cake the rest of the worshippers were burnt in the fire that ensued.

God however had mercy on the vilest creatures of Lisbon and spared the red light district of Lisbon where all those people who had the disgrace to visit brothels on the holiest day of the year were indulging themselves.

Same things happens to people who go on pilgrimage to Makkah every now and then thousands of worshippers are trampled to death in stampedes at stoning the devil ritual not including those who were crushed under the Crain and Saudi govt had to bring bulldozers to gather all the bodies. Total Death tolls from these events must be in tens of thousands only in last few decades. Some of the other bizarre ways people died during hajj other than the 20 babies that died due to miscarriages due to exhaustion, 77 pilgrims were killed in 2009, out of all things caused by floods... How the hell do you die of a flood in a desert like Makkah?

It seems God has a certain animosity with worshippers and pilgrims.
I don't think that is the topic of my conversation.

I am trying to prove that critical thinking can't take place in religion. In any religion. You can't question anything which claims to be an absolute truth.
 

hammy_lucky

MPA (400+ posts)
you wrote " Unfortunately our society doesnt promote questioning and debate. "


You are wrong, No religion will allow critical thinking.

Why do you ask questions?

You question to explore an answer.
But
Religions tell you that they have all the answers, which are absolue truth which you must accept.

If you don't accept them then you lose faith and you commit blasphemy.

Religious answers are absolute truth, which is contrary to the definition of critical thinking. Copernicus questioned if the sun revolves around the earth,
He found that it was not true. A new answer changed the science books. You can't do that with religion. Religion gives the answer, Just accept it.

Everything has to be made by someone, that's why God must exist. Then who made God? Religion will tell you to have faith and accept that he always existed.
Your critical thinking tells you that God would have also been made by some other God, but having such a belief due to critical thinking means you are out of the religion and you have committed blasphemy.

You ask religion, what causes the earthquakes, You found in Islam that it is due to bad character, you do critical thinking and realize that earthquakes happen due to scientific reasons. Earthquakes also take place under the ocean, why, Do the fish sleep around that causes the earthquake under the ocean?
Your critical thinking tells you that earthquakes have nothing to do with bad character, there you go. You have just committed blasphemy by denying religion Islam.

So my point is, there is no room for questioning in any religion. Just accept it,
Ask the questions if you like but you must accept the answer because they are absolute truths.


Science is all about questioning.

This is the reason most scientists (Not all) are either atheist or agnostic.
Reasoning is obligatory in Islam. Allah has asked humanity to use their Aqal in the Quran atleast 50 times.
The example you gave of earthquakes or natural disasters is actually unislamic. There is nothing in the Quran to support that. If you bring hadiths to your support that is a different topic of discussion. As hadiths and Sunnah are different and there are many problemetic hadiths which are falsely attributed towards Prophet pbuh hence creating problems among Muslims.
Also even if you take some of these natural disasters as a matter of God’s wrath than bear in mind ‘the scope of science is cause and effect’. Islam and science are NOT in contradictions with each other infact there scopes are different. When Allah decide to do things cause and effect just proceeds.
Quantum physics is still working on the nature of ‘matter’.
Dont take Faith blindly. Allah has blessed us with revelation to confirm absolute truths in the matters which cannot be proven by empirical evidences. Revelation is not against critical thinking but it invites us to use our aqal also in the matters of jurispudence, law and implementation of deen. Quran is not a book of science but its a moral code which also invites humanity to look and ponder into themselves and the universe for signs which ultimately leads to the creator.
 
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Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I don't think that is the topic of my conversation.

I am trying to prove that critical thinking can't take place in religion. In any religion. You can't question anything which claims to be an absolute truth.

That’s not surprising. Any liar would tell you not to question their story and take it as an absolute truth.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Reasoning is obligatory in Islam. Allah has asked humanity to use their Aqal in the Quran atleast 50 times.
The example you gave of earthquakes or natural disasters is actually unislamic. There is nothing in the Quran to support that. If you bring hadiths to your support that is a different topic of discussion. As hadiths and Sunnah are different and there are many problemetic hadiths which are falsely attributed towards Prophet pbuh hence creating problems among Muslims.
Also even if you take some of these natural disasters as a matter of God’s wrath than bear in mind ‘the scope of science is cause and effect’. Islam and science are NOT in contradictions with each other infact there scopes are different. When Allah decide to do things cause and effect just proceeds.
Quantum physics is still working on the nature of ‘matter’.
Dont take Faith blindly. Allah has blessed us with revelation to confirm absolute truths in the matters which needs empirical evidences. Revelation is not against critical thinking but it invites us to use our aqal also in the matters of jurispudence, law and implementation of deen. Quran is not a book of science but its a moral code which also invites humanity to look and ponder into themselves and the universe for signs which ultimately leads to the creator.

Aqal is a double edged sword. You can use it for critical thinking and you can use it in wrong way to justify wrong things using logic.

The Islamic critical thinking is different from logic and reason. It basically asks you to rationalize faith rather than to critically analyze it, your not allowed to analyze it or question it or criticize it.

One of the few logical people in Quraish was an educated physician by the name of Al Nadr and Rasul Allah despised him because he always asked intelligent questions which Muhammad couldn’t answer easily. Surah Kahf was revealed after questioning of Al Nadr. Muhammad took the opportunity to behead him and get rid of him once and for all after capturing him at Badr. He was one of only two prisoners to be executed rest were all spared and ransomed.
 

hammy_lucky

MPA (400+ posts)
Aqal is a double edged sword. You can use it for critical thinking and you can use it in wrong way to justify wrong things using logic.

The Islamic critical thinking is different from logic and reason. It basically asks you to rationalize faith rather than to critically analyze it, your not allowed to analyze it or question it or criticize it.

One of the few logical people in Quraish was an educated physician by the name of Al Nadr and Rasul Allah despised him because he always asked intelligent questions which Muhammad couldn’t answer easily. Surah Kahf was revealed after questioning of Al Nadr. Muhammad took the opportunity to behead him and get rid of him once and for all after capturing him at Badr. He was one of only two prisoners to be executed rest were all spared and ransomed.
Agree for most of the part. Although the story you mention is subject to verification. I really dont think its as simple as you mentioned. Allah is all knowing and wise. He has the knowledge of all things and thus order us to treat each other justly. In the real world people wants to satisfy their own ego and interests. In the process they do injustices and immoral acts.
All the critical thinking is before you arrive at the conclusion of the presence of God. Once you are convinced that their is a creator and Quran is the word of God than you have to take the commands of Allah without getting critical as common person’s intellect is incapable of comprehending the wisdom behind every order of Allah.

Islam with all its religious, moral, social, economic and political teachings is based on Revelation, but Revelation is the Supreme Wisdom of the Supreme Being. Therefore, there is no opposition in Islam between Revelation and Reason. For example,when the Holy Quan says,"Nor does he(i.e.the Prophet) speak out of desire. It is naught but revelation that is revealed” , the opposition that is set up by the Quran is not one between Revelation and Reason but betewen Revelation and desireorpersonalself-interest. In sofaras reason is pulled by desire or self-interest, it is antithetical to revelation. But, as we shall discuss later, reason is not always governed by desire or self-interest,as some people maintain. On the other hand,the true nature of reason lies in transcending desireand self-interest and taking into view the broader interests of the community, the na- tion or humanity at large.
Far from being opposed to the exercise of reason, the Holy Qur En is the only Book among the religious scriptures of theworld which lays repeated stress on the exercise of human reason and condemns the disbelievers for not using their rea- soning faculty and, this it does, not in one or two places but in manyof itsverses. For example,the HolyQuran says about the disbelievers that they are a people who have no understanding. "If there be of you twenty steadfast, they shall overcome two hundred and if there be of you a hundred steadfast, they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they
(the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence.
 

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